Please Help - Team Lost Everything (money, robots, number..)
 

Hello everyone. I know this will be a long post, but we're really scrambling to get things working for the upcoming season, and we would very much appreciate any help we can get.

About myself, I am a 2012 graduate of LiveWire 3456, currently attending MIT for Computer Science and Electrical Engineering and acting as a remote mentor for the team.

I'll start with a background of our situation. Team LiveWire 3456 was started in 2011 as a second team for the Pocatello, Idaho School District 25, alongside HayWire 1569. Funding was secured through several grants and donations, and both teams were operating on a limited but comfortable budget. The school district supported both teams by providing a build site and a modest coaching stipend for the coaches, but they provided no monetary support for either team. Both teams enjoyed success, and LiveWire attended the FIRST Championship twice in our two year history, winning the Rookie All-Star Award then the Chairman's Award.

But only a few months ago, School District 25 announced completely unexpectedly that it would only sanction a single team, team 1569. LiveWire 3456 was to be completely disbanded.

This presented many problems for the coaches, students, and parents of LiveWire. It is important to note that, though LiveWire and HayWire worked closely together, there are marked differences in ideology between the teams. HayWire believes in building a simple and effective robot. They like to have something reliable and thoroughly tested for competition, and they tend to put an emphasis on the physical aspects of building the robot. LiveWire, on the other hand, is focused more on the outreach aspect of FIRST. We put heavy emphasis on outreach, service, mentoring, etc., and we prefer to build a robot that will challenge us and teach us something new, even though it may not perform the best in competition. Both ideologies hold their merits, and I don't wish to disparage either. My point is that LiveWire exists as a separate team for a reason, and that reason isn't one we're willing to abandon.

This brings me to the problem LiveWire is currently facing. When the school district announced that it would only sanction a single team, all of LiveWire's money, tools, equipment, and robots were sequestered by the school district. We were left with virtually nothing, not even our leftover money from last season or the robot we competed at the 2012 Championship with. With this announcement coming so late and so unexpectedly, it has been extremely difficult garnering adequate funding to support the team for the 2013 season.

This caused further problems when it was decided that LiveWire would be unable to retain its number 3456. We were to be reinstated as team number 3562, a number from our rookie year, but we are not to be recognized as a rookie team. This means LiveWire will be given the veteran kit of parts, even though we don't have a cRIO, Classmate, jaguars, batteries, etc. Our registration fee is slowly being acquired, mostly through parent contributions, but we don't know where we're going to find hundreds or thousands of dollars more to get the components we need. We already missed the NASA grant because we didn't have a team number by the due date, and we're having a hard time coming up with the necessary funds for our team.

So we're wondering, are there any teams out there who might be able to help us out? Specifically, we're looking for teams that have an extra cRIO, classmate, pretty much anything that doesn't come in the veteran kit that we would be able to have or borrow for the season, or any advice as to what we can do to help our situation. We really want to continue as a team this season, and we have a very dedicated group of students, parents, and mentors who are putting in an incredible amount of time to try and make it work. No matter what happens we'll continue our outreach endeavors, but we don't want to miss out on the opportunity to have a competitive robot.

Thanks for reading this long post, and thanks in advance for any help you might be able to offer!

Re: Please Help - Team Lost Everything (money, robots, number..)
 

My advice: Contact your regional Senior Mentor. See if they know of anything that would be of use to you this season.

Re: Please Help - Team Lost Everything (money, robots, number..)
 

A few questions for clarification...

What is happening with all of the items that were taken by the school? Does the equipment belong to the school, or the team, Was the team set up as being a school sanctioned club that was a part of the school?

In Michigan, it doesn't matter what set up a club has, that money belongs to that club and can be dispersed however the advisor sees fit when the club is no longer viable. Talk to the district and see what they are doing with the teams old stuff. I've never seen a school that has a need for FRC equipment, and I don't know how yours could be special in any way in that sense.

If all of the items are going to the other team in your school district, I'm willing to bet that if you get the funds together for registration they might be the team to go to for an extra cRIO and classmate. I don't know of anyone involved in FIRST that would view a situation like that as an opportunity to have two of everything...

With that being said, if you get really desperate, we have an old 8 slot we use for practice and we haven't used our classmate in the last year or so. If you need them and can figure out a way to ship, we would be happy to help...

Re: Please Help - Team Lost Everything (money, robots, number..)
 

Let's take a look at this from another perspective.

Do you know how / why the school arrived at this decision ? What is their rationale ? Is it refutable ?

There is a lot of information in your post from the team's perspective but it would be good to know what the schools viewpoint is. Understanding their view might be helpful.

Re: Please Help - Team Lost Everything (money, robots, number..)
 

Thank you all for your quick responses.



To answer some of your questions, I realized I might not have made myself entirely clear, I apologize. I'll start with some clarification.



LiveWire was set up as a school team. We were designated as affiliated with one high school, but we involved students from all three high schools in our town. Consequently, the school district ultimately sanctioned the team. Though they provided no monetary support, we were nonetheless bound to them.



The school district has also made it extremely clear that LiveWire is not to have any of our equipment, tools, robots, etc. LiveWire will not ever be able to acquire its equipment again. We have pleaded to the school district, repeatedly asked for their reasoning, each team member, most parents, and mentors wrote personal letters to the board members, we even scheduled meetings with the superintendent -- only to have them cancelled. The only reason we have ever been given is "the district is moving in a different direction." That is literally the only response we've been given, after repeated attempts to get more information.

I was also just informed that the school district has declared all of our equipment and money to be school district property, and HayWire is not allowed to share any of it with us. We do not know why the school district has designated this, it is as much a mystery to us as to anyone else.



We have already reached out to our regional director and to FIRST. They helped us acquire a new team number, as the school district would not release the number 3456 for us to use. The school district tried to prevent us from even continuing on as a team, but with the help of FIRST, (Thank you Mr. Merrick!) the district was defeated in this endeavor. They did succeed in withholding our number from us though.



Again, we have no idea why the district decided to do this to us. We always did our best to stay in good relations, "Pocatello School District 25" was displayed prominently on our robot, robot truck, and website, and our team's outreach endeavors correlate directly with the goals of the district.



MrBasse, thank you so much. We will keep in contact if the situation does not get better, we really appreciate the offer.

Re: Please Help - Team Lost Everything (money, robots, number..)
 

Just to be clear here, by virtue of being a "sanctioned" team, all team property was the property of the district? I realize this may be splitting hairs, but if they have no legal right to repossess your equipment, you may be able to challenge them on that front. Although it sounds like most of your avenues in that direction have been pursued already.

I'm glad to hear FIRST was able to help you out, this sounds like a very hostile situation. Tools, capital equipment and team vehicles I could see the district being able to use or re-purpose, but it baffles me why they would withhold old robots.

Re: Please Help - Team Lost Everything (money, robots, number..)
 

If one team prefers to concentrate more on the robot, and one on the outreach...I would think you would actually go better together. Mutual benefit.

The students on the one who prefer competing - compete
The students on the one who prefer outreach - outreach

Having strong programs in both would let students gain the most by participating in what they feel more strongly about. And there may be students on one team who prefer the aspect of the other - but haven't gotten to experience it.

Re: Please Help - Team Lost Everything (money, robots, number..)
 

Sounds like this is one instance where you might to get the local media involved. A school district trying to prevent STEM? Ridiculous!

Re: Please Help - Team Lost Everything (money, robots, number..)
 

Firstly, let's distinguish new LiveWire from old LiveWire: as I understand it, the former is a new privately-operated team, and the latter is an old, defunct school-operated team. Organizationally, people moved from old to new, but there's no common corporate lineage. Is that correct?

Also, let's get this out of the way: you make reference to differences of opinion between old LiveWire and HayWire. Are those cordial differences of opinion, or are you actually mutually resentful of the other team's methods? It's relevant for many reasons, not the least of which being that perhaps the school district was trying to kill some sort of rivalry that it didn't like.

Was the team's equipment actually school district property? (For example, paid for with school funds, or donated to the school explicitly, perhaps in writing.) Or was it not clearly theirs to take away? (For example, bought by mentors or parents out of their own personal funds, and given to the school on the condition,¹ perhaps in writing, that it be used for 3456.) If and only if it's not the school's property free and clear, there may be a nuclear option available: you could sue them for conversion, or rather, provide a strongly-worded letter suggesting you might do just that.² If you can honestly say that it appears to be an instance of official corruption, or deliberate malfeasance, talk with the other mentors about making some discreet inquiries in this direction. But if the school really does own the property, that effort will fail.

There are also plenty of political remedies available, but they may come with political consequences for the teachers who are trying to maintain their day jobs. Assuming the school board holds public meetings with an opportunity for open comment, I'm sure they'll enjoy having to withstand direct criticism at their next meeting. And doubly so during the next election cycle. If, in the big picture, it makes more sense to break the board's resolve, then this might be worth discussing. I'm not always a fan of political theatrics, but they have their place.

But beware: it's not unlikely that accepting the school district's decision ends up being the most beneficial solution once their expected perpetual intransigence is taken into account. Maybe you're in the best position already—moving on.

¹ An "onerous gift" is one that comes with strings explicitly attached. If you accept the gift, you accept the conditions.
² There's actually another option—the blow up the Sun option: you could file criminal charges. Don't do this. Given the description you've supplied, it's kind of cruel, not remotely worth it, and you'll almost certainly fail.

Re: Please Help - Team Lost Everything (money, robots, number..)
 

Your website mentions that you moved into a build space at a mall. Was that space donated or supplied by the school in anyway? Is the tooling in that space the property of the school district?

Also why did you have to give up your team number?

I have empathy for your situation, it just seems really bizarre, the circumstances. I'm sure you are just as confused as we are.

Re: Please Help - Team Lost Everything (money, robots, number..)
 

Hey Dirk-
We are going to see what we can do. I'll talk to our coaches to see what kind of extra parts we have and send them your way. I seriously can't believe that your school district would cut you guys, especially after such an awesome season last year. If you have any other specifics on the things you guys need, let us know. I'm really sorry and I realy hope we can help. Keep up the goOd work.
-Kinney, FRC Team 2486, the CocoNuts

Re: Please Help - Team Lost Everything (money, robots, number..)
 

Just a thought to tuck away in your mind as you thing through this, actually two thoughts.

1) material assets such as tools, robots, etc are relatively minor things to lose. reaquiring those things is just a task to do ( not trying to overly minimize that )

2) Losing buy in from the school system is the huge loss here. That is a big problem from a societal / educational viewpoint. We may as well get rid of indoor plumbing and electricity. Especially when the team is self funded.

Re: Please Help - Team Lost Everything (money, robots, number..)
 

I do not really understand all the legal system involved here, but I believe I have seen others on CD comment on this similarly. If a corporation gives money to a team to be used for a specific purpose, or if you had money from a specific grant, that money MUST be used for the same purpose as it was given. You said the money your team had leftover was reallocated to other teams: if that money came from your sponsors, you could ask them to get involved to ask for the money to be either returned or given to your team.

*I could be completely wrong here. If I am, please correct me.

Re: Please Help - Team Lost Everything (money, robots, number..)
 

Yes, money was given to a school for team use and the money was probably used for team purposes.

However, it is general practice in most school districts that the school owns the property.

Who owns the property is a different issue than what the money was used for.

Re: Please Help - Team Lost Everything (money, robots, number..)
 

I don't know if I can help or offer an idea here. But my recommendation is, if you do succeed in reestablishing a team, register yourselves as a nonprofit organization. That way, you are no longer tied to the school and they cannot legally take anything away from you. As someone mentioned earlier, make the rest of your community aware of this situation. Draw attention from a local news station and parents. You may even go so far to protest the district's actions publicly.

Re: Please Help - Team Lost Everything (money, robots, number..)
 

We still haven't gotten clarification of where the equipment and supplies came from. After a two minute Google search I found the biggest problem you have. By becoming a group with the school you entered a contract with the school as a School Activity Fund group. Per this document you have absolutely no recourse here whatsoever.

Specifically - "5. Materials and equipment purchased by student activity funds become District property. "

I'm sorry to say this, but the district is following their guidelines to a T. Taking everything away and shutting down an educational group is a terrible way for a school to work, but maybe someone on the board of trustees didn't like something you were doing as a group. If that is the kind of environment you were in, I would consider you lucky to be forced out of it. Sounds like it was a toxic relationship from the way communication was/is handled and general treatment was/is addressed.

It sounds like you were extremely successful in that environment, there is no telling what you are capable of once you are free of that mess.

Our offer still stands if you need a hand, distance or not we'd hate to see another young team suffer at someone else's doing. Just let me know what you might need and we can see if we can work out a care package.

Re: Please Help - Team Lost Everything (money, robots, number..)
 

They may have had the legal right to do so, but were their actions justified? If they gave a response to the constant pleas from team members and parents, maybe their was reason for their actions, but from the information gathered here it seems that it was done completely without cause.

Re: Please Help - Team Lost Everything (money, robots, number..)
 

My team, the "Kell Robotics Team" is administratively a school club. Historically the money came into the school as a club contribution, school accounting handled the money, and the property became the schools. The money is school activity funds.

All of that has changed. We recently created a 501(c)3 non-profit public interest corporation, the Kell Robotics Foundation.

501(c)3 corporations can be public, or private. We are public.

Public 501(c)3 corporations can be a
1) a booster type of thing, where most money comes from fundraising, club dues, modest contributions, typical examples are sports and band boosters.
2) a public charity, where most money comes from outside donations. A good example of this is FIRST.

Most boosters are type (1) and provide single-entity support. In other words if the boosted club ceases existence, then the booster is no longer needed.

We elected to do type (2) multi-entity support organization because much of the work we do goes outside of our team and impacts teams all across the region. This gives us the legal latitude to spend money on other teams as part of our outreach. If the Kell Robotics Team (club) ceased to exist at school, the Kell Robotics Foundation and the Kell Robotics Innovation Center can exist in perpetuity, and the Kell Robotics Team could continue to exist as a non-school entity if there was demand.

It is a hedge against this type of action described in the OP. It gives the foundation ownership of the equipment.

It allows the foundation to bequeath the assets to FIRST, or GeorgiaFIRST, or their designee. Meaning if the foundation closed the doors the equipment goes to other FIRST teams and not locked into a warehouse like you see in Raiders of the Lost Ark.

And the foundation can often get to a broader range of funding than a school can.

Having said all of that, the best option is for the school to fully embrace the team and fund it. The 2nd best option is for the school to at least celebrate the team and let it self fund.

I'm not crazy about every team going and creating a 501(c)3 but it is done by most sports, and fine arts clubs at schools everywhere so there you go.

But I would take special note as to how it is filed in the IRS 1023 Part X.

.

Re: Please Help - Team Lost Everything (money, robots, number..)
 

But did they have the moral right ?

I wish we knew the back story as the press calls it.

Re: Please Help - Team Lost Everything (money, robots, number..)
 

Not to be rude, but that's what I said in the rest of my comment.

Re: Please Help - Team Lost Everything (money, robots, number..)
 

If you post or PM a list of specific items I'll talk to my team (3483 ) and see if we can get some loaners to you.

Re: Please Help - Team Lost Everything (money, robots, number..)
 

I'm not saying I agree with what happened, I'm just pointing out the unfortunate truth of the situation. School is just like real life, it always pays to read the fine print...

Also, we still don't have any information as to what the cause could be. It's hard to believe but there could be the best possible reason for the board's actions. It could also be a trivial thing that was viewed as a possible cost savings. School boards are elected officials and elected officials don't always make the right choice, just the choice that they feel is right at the time.

I'm still offering support as I feel the actions of the board are unfair and ridiculous. But I like to offer up the facts of the matter so people will stop saying that these students and parents should sue or publicly protest. Both of those actions could lead to more trouble for the team.

Think about it this way, would you want to be associated and hosted by a school that you just filed a lawsuit on?

Re: Please Help - Team Lost Everything (money, robots, number..)
 

My advice is to disband the newly-formed Livewire completely and start a community team as rookies under a new name & identity. Recruit additional kids from outside the schools as well. That way you get a rookie KOP.

From the way you've presented it, it sounds like the team got shafted by someone who was afraid that the money in the county would thin out due to your former team's success (championship attendance is NOT cheap).

Re: Please Help - Team Lost Everything (money, robots, number..)
 

Please private message me to give me the most recent information about what you need. I am almost certain that we can help you by loaning some equipment.

Let's do this on the private messages...thanks
Coach Steele
Skunkworks Robotics 1983

Re: Please Help - Team Lost Everything (money, robots, number..)
 

Once again, thank you all for your concern and your helpful suggestions. We really appreciate each of them.

I'll start by answering the questions brought up to the best of my ability.

I want to start off by saying once again that we have absolutely no idea why the school district decided to do this. We did nothing wrong, we did nothing to warrant such action to the best of our knowledge. I have been racking my brain trying to determine what might have caused this to happen, and I can come up with absolutely nothing that would have caused the school board to take such an extreme course of action. The fact that they will not tell us their reasoning seems to me to be indicative of some inner politics at work. We have absolutely no idea what the district's thought process is, and if we had any idea what could have engendered such a rash course of action, we would tell you.

Second, we are not considering suing the school district or taking any sort of legal action. We feel we have taken every action possible short of legal measures, and when everything was unsuccessful, we decided to accept the situation, unfortunate as it is. Maybe we have grounds for sure actions, but we are not considering them, as we don't feel it would create a good situation for us or the school or the teachers who are affiliated with LiveWire.

To answer some of the points brought up, the build space in the mall was arranged for by LiveWire coaches and was paid for by private donations, at a rent significantly reduced by the mall in the first place.

As far as the situation regarding our number: the school district did not want us to continue independent of them, even though they didn't allow us to continue as a team. Even after we realized all our equipment was being taken, we asked to at least keep our number, but the district refused, and even wanted to keep our name. Luckily, FIRST intervened and allowed us to keep our name. We do not understand WHY the district wanted to keep our number, but they succeeded. I personally am not entirely clear on the logistics of that, but it is done and FIRST did what it could in the situation.

Concerning rivalries, there is no public rivalry that the district could have been trying to break up. LiveWire always made it a point to take the high road and live up to a high standard of gracious professionalism to do our part to ensure good relations with the other team. An outside observer during the last year would have seen LiveWire and HayWire working closely together, exchanging ideas, and cooperating with gracious professionalism.

For some good news, we have very recently become affiliated with 4H. While they were unable to offer us any monetary support, we were able to attain 501c(3) status, which we are very happy about.

For our leftover money, it was money we had raised through summer camps we hosted over the summer. It was placed in a school district account, because in order to make our camp's registration fees tax deductible, the money had to be paid through the school district. So there's nothing we can do to recover this unfortunately :(.

Overall, I think one of the best things we can get out of this situation is that (1) 501c(3) holds some very good benefits, even for teams who are well situated within a school. But (2), I am very happy to note that the support from the FIRST community has been amazing. We have received multiple offers of extra parts, and we're grateful for everyone who has offered them. We'll be in contact with you, thank you so much.

Re: Please Help - Team Lost Everything (money, robots, number..)
 

Prior to any comment I may have regarding what poor advice I may be able to provide, I sincerely sympathize with your plight. I haven't had any personal experience with your team, but just from looking at your website, I can tell that you guys have a very passionate group of people that appear to be an excellent representation of the FIRST community.

On to something involving that poor advice I mentioned earlier--

I would have a few questions regarding the future usage of those tools-- where are they going? Are they going to HayWire? If so, are you still on good enough terms to enter into a cooperative relationship with them? I'm not sure what the district's policy on this is, but Cooperitition is one of those core values of FIRST, and if HayWire all of a sudden has all of these "old parts" that they can't necessarily use themselves during the next season, that might be an avenue to look into-- I mean, what use does the district have for a bunch of FRC-specific parts? Are they auctioning them to recoup costs, in the event that this is budget related?

That being said, if the district is actively hostile towards your organization, enraging them further probably won't result in good on either side, so something to take into consideration before looking into that.

Best of luck in all your endeavors.