Re: First Choice 2013
 

Me too!

Re: First Choice 2013
 

Ditto ditto. Reserving some points for the post kickoff rush, and maybe to sneak in one or two of those Igus turntable bearings when they come in stock on the 17th. On the off chance they'll be useful in the future.

Re: First Choice 2013
 

Do we know what the post-kickoff FIRST Choice will look like? We're currently sitting with a bunch of our refunded credits, staring at a list of things we really don't need (in fact, need even less than most of the original KoP stuff...) Will the post-kickoff offerings be solely game-related, or might there be more electronics, etc?

On the bright side, at least log in worked this time and we didn't get repeatedly kicked off the system.

Re: First Choice 2013
 

Done here as well. I didn't see any issues this time around.

Re: First Choice 2013
 

Kudos to the folks at AndyMark!

Our points for out-of-stock items are refunded, one of our orders has shipped and the remaining parts are listed as processing. I received an explanation email from Andy Baker at 11 o'clock last night. Even though things did go sideways yesterday, I have a feeling that they put in a tremendous amount of time and effort over the past 24 hours to make things better and start getting parts out to teams.

Re: First Choice 2013
 

Is there any possibility at all that the FIRST Choice inventory gets replenished? Thinking at this point we'll just save our credits and hope something valuable is available later.

Re: First Choice 2013
 

i agree, this hasn't been a very positive experience. i can understand running our of talons, i just bought them, but battery chargers? if items go this quickly, there should be some mechanism for restock.

Re: First Choice 2013
 

Round 2...checkout messed up during shipping calculation as recalculating shipping clock got stuck and I had to call AndyMark. Hopefully we get the camera that was part of our re-order today after losing 2 Talons yesterday to glitch. FIRST Choice shows points deducted for camera but it isn't in invoice, it shows out of stock now too. Hoping Jerry grabbed one as he said he would do (when there were still over 50 as we talked) and added it to our shipment. It would sure make for a nice Christmas!

Edit: Just received confirmation email from Jerry that he was able to help with camera. Now if they can just make sure we don't get charged shipping for re-orders given that yesterday's order got shipped already...

Re: First Choice 2013
 

Yeah, you can only get $1000 worth of AndyMark gearmotors for free with 96 credits at this point. That's a real shame.

Re: First Choice 2013
 

This is the approach we are taking now. We are hoping that inventory will get replenished at this point and hope that measures will be taken to account for the teams that were effected by the login bug.

Re: First Choice 2013
 

We have already received our FIRSTChoice shipment from yesterday.

AndyMark, great turn around time on shipping.

Also the Talons come with a Fan and fan mounting screws.

-Clinton-

Re: First Choice 2013
 

Not the point. Value in this case = getting something we otherwise would have purchased using money. We don't know if we will use AM gear motors in our design this year, and even if we do I doubt we will use $1000 worth. That's the genius of FIRST Choice (seriously) - teams will have different value functions, so let them choose what is most valuable to them in order to distribute limited resources in a close-to-optimal way.

Unfortunately a combination of uneven credits-to-dollars ratios, a lack of quantity limits, and the presence of a few near-universal high dollar items meant that in a lot of cases the value functions were aligned. This is why there was such a run on Talons, Classmates, Axis cameras, Right angle drills - all high dollar items that teams know they will have a high chance of being able to use in 2013 regardless of design.

Re: First Choice 2013
 

I feel this way too. We were hoping to get a classmate and maybe a few talons if we could but due to log in issues got in late and everything was already gone. This kinda hurts when I read the posts that people were able to log in on time and get multiple talons and classmates.

Re: First Choice 2013
 

Before FIRST Choice you would not have gotten anything more than what is still available to you right now on FIRST Choice. No motor controllers, Classmate PCs, cRIOs, Axis Cameras, drills, or a load of other things unless you were a rookie. We are still going to get a kit of parts at kickoff. With all of the items in the virtual kit and the physical kit we will get at the kickoff teams will have far more than they have ever received in the past. All that said, the system didn't work the way it was supposed to and the items on FIRST Choice were not distributed fairly. I am sure FIRST will look into making this a better experience in the future. Please look for ways of making the most out of the situation instead of complaining about it. It still is an improvement from past years no matter what you get from FIRST Choice.

Re: First Choice 2013
 

Do they really now? Huh. We ordered some (read: purchased) and they didn't come with fans nor mounting screws. We're not too affected by this, as we have a plethora of Victor fans lying around.

Re: First Choice 2013
 

This could could be a new addition since the release of the VexPro product line. We also purchased some Talons (in September) and we did not receive any Fan hardware.

Maybe someone from AndyMark can expand on this or note on the Talon product page (http://www.andymark.com/Talon-p/am-2195.htm) if all Talons will come with Fan hardware.

Also it looks like AndyMark is sold out of Talons all together. I'm curious if they will be back in stock of Kickoff.

-Clinton-

Re: First Choice 2013
 

I spoke with Mike a while ago and Talons purchased from Andy Mark are not supposed to come with fans (our retail order did not come with fans). However, they may have changed the package just for FIRST choice.

Re: First Choice 2013
 

I would argue that veteran teams get substantially less "stuff" than they used to. However, I would also say that veteran teams who actually got what they wanted from FIRST Choice probably got a much better value than they used to, since (hypothetically) they were ordering things they'll use for the season, whereas in the past before they neutered the kit of parts, veteran teams got a lot of stuff that just sat on the shelf gathering dust. (How many linear slide parts and pillow blocks do we really need....).

All in all, I agree the new system will be an improvement when it works correctly and fairly for all teams. I bet we see a big improvement next year.

Re: First Choice 2013
 

Honestly, in addition needing to spend the extra money*, one of my issues with this in terms of KOP is that it has handicapped our final robot design by hundreds of dollars. We regularly design to our limit (in terms of the $3500 cap as well as time, energy and coffee), and this doesn't seem right. Why is a team that didn't get stuck in a glitch allowed to write off, say $660 in free Talons, when a team that didn't want that many but got kicked off/couldn't log in, not only has to pay for them but also has to make their final robot $550 cheaper? Aside from simply feeling cheated out of the system we were promised and having no use for $1000 worth of gearmotors or anything else now available [what Jared said], this just doesn't make sense to me.

Personally, I believe both the FIRST Choice procedures and rule R13 [2012] could use a change (though obviously I push for the former more). Even if it was changed to focus on those truly in need or some other fundamental change, it has to be better than the system simply failing.

*I can't imagine how difficult this is on teams that simply can't afford alternatives. I'm dreading the impact it could have, but something tells me we'll be donating more parts than usual this season.

Re: First Choice 2013
 

I always interpreted the KoP rule as "you're allowed to use up to the amount of the parts present in the KoP for 'free' in terms of the BOM." Since Talons were not restricted in FIRST Choice, wouldn't they be free in the BOM anyway?

Re: First Choice 2013
 

No they technically wouldn't.
From the Q&A:
"Rule R13C allows exclusion from total cost of "items ever distributed to the team via FIRST Choice". May a team exclude the cost of an item listed in FIRST Choice but which was not available for distribution due to limited quantities in stock?"
Answer: No

Link: https://frc-qa.usfirst.org/Question/...able-for-distr

Re: First Choice 2013
 

The BOM rules must be changed to count fair market value of everything on the robot, regardless of how you obtained it. (And perhaps raise the limit a bit, and declare fair market values for KOP items that cannot be purchased from vendors). It's the only logical way. This is a robotics competition, not a book-cooking competition.

Re: First Choice 2013
 

Teams adversely affected by the Inventory management problems should contact frcparts@usfirst.org.

Re: First Choice 2013
 

I hate to bear bad news, but:

Re: First Choice 2013
 

This has been a policy since we started FIRST Choice. Here is a FAQ posted on the AM website:

"What happens if a part is out of stock when I try to place my order?
When logging into the FIRST Choice Ordering section of the AndyMark webpage, the number of items still in stock at the moment the webpage loads is shown for each part. If there are no more available at this time it will show 'OUT OF STOCK'. Since many teams are placing their orders at the same time, someone else might have reserved the last part, by placing their order, while you are still checking out. In this case, the item will automatically be removed from your cart. Please be sure to place your order quickly, and double check your order after it has been placed. If this does happen you will still be able to log in again and order something else! Once a FIRST Choice item is out of stock, it will be out of stock for the remainder of the FIRST Choice ordering period."

Sincerely,
Andy Baker

Re: First Choice 2013
 

I think one thing people are wondering is if FIRST Choice will offer a variety of new parts from FIRST Choice after kickoff and if they should save the credits they have left over to add to the 100 they'll get in January.

To be short is there a new set of different parts that'll be released after kickoff or just game specific pieces?

Peyton

Re: First Choice 2013
 

We're (my team) is assuming that the only reason we're getting another 100 points at kickoff is specially to buy those game-related parts that aren't released yet.

It's a logical assumption.....

Re: First Choice 2013
 

Got in for a second order; ordered one (1) new compressor, four (4) Clippard plastic volume tanks, and three (3) 24v Solenoid kits. Order seems to have processed fine. Our team now has three (3) FIRST Choice points left. And no, we do not want a backwards DB37 ribbon cable.

Re: First Choice 2013
 

Are aware that it is fairly simple to fix the cable to no longer be "backwards"?

http://www.usfirst.org/sites/default...structions.pdf

Re: First Choice 2013
 

Or you could just use the equivalent non-ribbon cable, which IIRC is also on FIRST Choice.

http://www.andymark.com/FIRST-Choice-p/fc13-096.htm

Re: First Choice 2013
 

Exactly why are they made backwards? What is the purpose of that?

Re: First Choice 2013
 

It was an error in manufacturing, all ribbon cables we got last(?) season had to be repaired after teams opened the kits of parts.

A lot of teams prefer the ribbon solution as it takes up a lot less vertical space, and if the big stiff connector gets hit hard enough from the side I bet some pins are gonna get bent/broken ::safety::

Re: First Choice 2013
 

What happened to the team 5000 login (i.e. the viewing only account)? Is there another way to keep track of stock for those who don't have a login yet or just don't have access to it? There's a non-login page to see whats avaliable, but it doesn't show stock beyond in/out of stock.

Re: First Choice 2013
 

I think his point is that he has 3 credits remaining and chose not to order the only item available for that number of credits.

Can't help you long term, but here's today's remaining stock.

Re: First Choice 2013
 

These Fluke meters have been offered for three years and I can't for the life of me understand why teams don't snap them up. These are $200 meters and I think most teams would benefit from getting one.

Also those Festo valves are a high value item and even if you don't use them you can always trade them to another team for something you could.

Re: First Choice 2013
 

Agreed, those meters are great. We got one last year, and were thinking of getting another one this year... until we found out one of our sponsors was "retiring" some and would donate them instead of throwing them away :D

Re: First Choice 2013
 

Anyone using the PDV's yet?
Bimba seems to be open for the free 3 cylinder order, too.

Statement of interest on the Banebot site:
Should we believe them?

Re: First Choice 2013
 

Got the meter. Also got the cable. It is going to be an intelligence test for the electrical crew. Which plug do you reverse? Or do you be safe & do both of them to be sure you got the right one?

Re: First Choice 2013
 

I hope so... otherwise we'll run into quite a few problems at inspection from teams that saw that and didn't bother to verify with the rulebook!

Re: First Choice 2013
 

I bet there are a good number of teams <points to self> that want to get a jump on Banebots infamous shipping times by ordering now. The PDV code is already on TIMS, so if FIRST changes its mind they're likely to end up with even more unhappy customers on the hands.


On that note though, I'd like to thank FIRST for everything they're doing to compensate for FIRST Choice. I'm disappointed (I'm sure they are too) that it came to this, but my, are they trying to make up for it. I'm impressed. I'm also afraid to think about how much the compensation offer is costing them.

Re: First Choice 2013
 

The Fluke is possible to find for ~$115 (interesting coincidence) and pretty easy to find for ~$135. We got one each of the last two years and we would have gotten a lot more (to replace the freebee Harbor Freight multimeter used in our physics classes) if they weren't limited to one per team. I can't imagine most teams would need more than two and if they're trying to get stuff to resell, the graphics cards have a greater $/credit ratio.

Re: First Choice 2013
 

Is anyone else having issues with First Choice? Our password in TIMS isn't working to log on. We had no issues with this on December 10th. I'm in the process of writing an email to frcteams@usfirst.org

Re: First Choice 2013
 

I had no trouble.

Re: First Choice 2013
 

I had no trouble either.

Re: First Choice 2013
 

Ours worked fine also. I almost used pdv password by accident, sure you are using the correct AndyMark code?

Re: First Choice 2013
 

I too am experiencing login difficulties at FIRST Choice. My password and username are accepted but I cannot "accept" the agreement....I am sent back to the login screen.

Re: First Choice 2013
 

I know this is stupid of me, but I am with a rookie team and did not know what FIRST Choice was until today at kickoff. :( Now it seems pretty much everything that would be extremely helpful for us is out of stock. Does that mean its out of stock permanently? If so, what is left that we should most definitely get? Thanks so much.

Re: First Choice 2013
 

First Choice stock will not be replenished.

Re: First Choice 2013
 

Well we tore through our basketballs last year and got more from FIRSTCHOICE for an ok price but the discs this year are standard and can be bought at a dollar store if you continually break them.

Re: First Choice 2013
 

The DISCs are not standard. They are slightly different from "regulation" Frisbees. Differences might not matter, depending on your design, but ensure that you test with the official game piece, or you might have a bad time.