Re: FRC Blogged - FIRST Choice Issue (And Part II)
 

I just got an email from AM confirming shipping, it includes everything I thought I ordered. I ordered at about 12:15. System was slow to add items to the cart to move to check out, but I otherwise had no issues. (Once I got that one letter in the password capitalized.)

Wetzel

Re: FRC Blogged - FIRST Choice Issue (And Part II)
 

Lucky you...

Re: FRC Blogged - FIRST Choice Issue (And Part II)
 

for me the same!!! i placed my order at 12:03
will be the first year with a classmate after someone stole our in Brazil in 2009!:yikes:
we took 1 piece of each item (except 560 video cards that took 6 for our computers) so that other teams could have the same chance as us!:)

Re: FRC Blogged - FIRST Choice Issue (And Part II)
 

I didn't intend that as bragging, I just wanted to put that data point out there. From my view, the server(s) help up and didn't fully meltdown, if they might have slowed a bit, which is a good thing. That said, even without the restocking issue (critical error), the mad dash plan to grab things was not a good one. It was additionally hurt by the nonsensical point values assigned to things.

7 credits
Right Angle Drill Kit
Sonar Sensor
3" lazy susan

8 credits items
battery connector
Solenoid valve kit (24v)
Crank ratchet
Assorted Terminal Bag
Compressor

9 credits
2' length of 6AWG wire
Circular Saw
cRIO

10 credits
Wire Stripper
DB37 ribbon cable

How do these make sense?

Wetzel

Re: FRC Blogged - FIRST Choice Issue (And Part II)
 

It wasn't taken as bragging, Wetzel. I was just trying to communicate that order success really was a matter of luck;)
And now I am off to round two of the mad dash to replace the two tallons that were part of a second order from12:09 yesterday that got dumped...

Re: FRC Blogged - FIRST Choice Issue (And Part II)
 

I do agree with Wetzel that appropriate, proportional pricing of items would do wonders to cut back on the "piranha effect" for the big ticket items.

Make the pain proportional to the prize.

Re: FRC Blogged - FIRST Choice Issue (And Part II)
 

I understand that FIRST and AndyMark have good, honest, gracious and professional people working for them. However, the system that has been put into place is unreasonable.

Why is my $5000 entry fee worth potentially hundreds and hundreds of dollars less than another teams? HOW DOES THIS MAKE SENSE?

I've been doing this for long enough to remember the days when we had a limited part list and had to order only from Small Parts. While I'm not suggesting that we return to those days, I do think that there must be a better system for distributing the items that make up the kit - a system that goes back to trying to level the playing field a bit instead of making for the quick and the hungry.

I believe the major issue is the credit value unbalance. As has been pointed out, some items have a credit value nearly SIXTY TIMES greater than other items - and these high value items have just about the lowest total quantity available. This just makes for a lottery-like situation.

If teams were given 500 credits and the right angle drill was 170 credits, the classmate was 200 credits, talons 60 and CIMs 27 credits, would there be a mad rush for classmates? Possibly, but at least teams wouldn't feel so bad that their credits were now worth considerably less after the high-value, low-quantity items were gone.

Teams might actually wait until partway into the build season and order items they are going to actually use on their robot if credits matched street price values.

Correct the credit value and much of the problem will be lessened.

- Mr. Van
Coach, Robodox

Re: FRC Blogged - FIRST Choice Issue (And Part II)
 

I hope no one interprets this post as bragging, I just want to point out how messed up this all is.

We were one of the teams locked out for 10 minutes, then we got in. I was able to get $2100 in retail value worth of items give or take.

A few minutes later the value had dropped substantially. It's ridiculous that the first few teams can make out so well, and everyone else is picking at scraps. Sure, there are some high dollar items left, but what if the team doesn't need that?

I won't throw a new idea out, as the draft + open selection ideas posted already are great.

Re: FRC Blogged - FIRST Choice Issue (And Part II)
 

I guess I'm an outlier.

I realized that every team was trying to get new "free" items from FIRSTChoice.

We picked some key items we may use, got what we thought was a fair amount (2 batteries, 2 Anderson connectors, 1 classmate, 1 compressor, 2 gearmotors, 2 more gearmotors, 1 compressor, 1 cRIO), and got out of the way.

Knowing that the supply was limited on the items available, and knowing that not all teams had the luxury of having somebody available to log on at 12:01, and I want to make this clear,

the thought never crossed my mind to hoard items, select items intending to resell them for profit, or snatch items away from other teams before they had the chance to get them.

Honestly, I'm having trouble with the notion that fellow FIRSTers would act in such a way. It's appalling.

To borrow a phrase from another well-published mentor, I'd consider somebody who would act like that to be a dishonorable cretin.

Maybe I do have a rose-colored-glasses view of the world; maybe I've read too much into the notion of Gracious Professionalism; maybe I've been wrong all along and there is no room for altruism in FRC.

Maybe it is all about the robots.

Re: FRC Blogged - FIRST Choice Issue (And Part II)
 

I doubt any team specifically grabbed items so others couldn't with no intention of using them themselves.

Re: FRC Blogged - FIRST Choice Issue (And Part II)
 

This is the primary problem I see right now. Not only are teams not getting anywhere close to the same value from FIRST Choice, some of the components are used on robots (talons, CIMs, etc) and some aren't (graphics cards, drills, wire strippers). This boils down to huge differences in team expenses for the season (real money dollars), AND large discrepancies in cost accounting for the robot budget limit.

Hopefully the cost accounting rules help remedy this in some way to make it more fair. I don't think it's right that a team that was able to get in and get 11 talons ($660 worth of robot parts) and puts them all on the robot would get all of those speed controllers counted as KOP costs and not towards the $3500 limit*, whereas a team which was only able to get graphics cards and wire strippers spends their own money on the same 11 speed controllers, and has to count that against the $3500 cap because it wasn't part of their "KOP", but non-robot items were.

IMO, the purpose of the kit of parts is to give teams a fair and solid foundation to start building their robots. The current setup does not do that. I have seen several good ideas for how to remedy the problem in the future, but if parts have already shipped, there is little that can be done to remedy the current situation.

I would like to see an improved FIRST Choice setup for the post-kickoff round, with re-stocked high demand components like motors and speed controllers. I would also like to see the robot cost rules account for teams who had to purchase critical items like Talons without FIRST Choice credits due to system overloads. It's only fair.

*This is based on previous year's rules for cost accounting

Re: FRC Blogged - FIRST Choice Issue (And Part II)
 

I highly doubt there were many, if any, teams who looked at this as a chance to make a profit through resale or a chance to hoard pieces they had no intention of using.

That said, I would completely understand a team looking at the items available and saying "We know we'll have a 4-motor drive train this year, lets pick up 4 Talons for it", or "Our programming team really needs 2 new laptops for use at competition, lets pick up two classmates". This way, they're looking at what they'll need, as well as the value proposition for their team. If you know you need to get something anyways, you're going to go after the highest cost items on FIRST Choice you know you need, and simply buy the lower cost items later.

The problem is, if there are only 1000 Talons, and you have 250 teams that log in and purchase 4 each for their drive train, then you have another 2250+ teams who can't get any.

You end up with the same results we have today, without any of the intentional malice or profit-making attempts.

Re: FRC Blogged - FIRST Choice Issue (And Part II)
 

I don't think most teams were "hoarding" to resell or be a detriment. 971 regularly builds robots with 10+ motors that all require speed controllers, and we usually build two robots. If I see no limit posted for items and the price is only 9 credits, I'm going to get as many as I can because I know I will use them all, and it represents a significant monetary savings (both from a team operating standpoint and robot budget). There's nothing malicious about it, just trying to make the best use of resources.

If any teams did hoard with the intent of reselling, then yes, shame on them. But I suspect no one really anticipated just how quickly the high value items were going to sell out (although most of us probably could have told FIRST it would happen if they didn't put a limit and had that low quantities).

Note: 971 wasn't able to get in yesterday at all due to the <1000 bug, so we didn't get any of the hot items.

Re: FRC Blogged - FIRST Choice Issue (And Part II)
 

The easy fix for this is to make everything on the BoM count towards the budget at the fair market value (Talons = $60 and cRIO = $525 etc). So no logger will the KoP pieces be considered "freebies" interms of the budget contraint on teams. If this was to happen I think it would be in the best interest of Teams and FIRST to increase the budget limit to something more reasonable then $3,500.

Also I think this will be good to give team, especially the students, a more accurate idea of what a FIRST Robot cost. This cost is still missing the labor of assembly and fabrication.

-Clinton-

Re: FRC Blogged - FIRST Choice Issue (And Part II)
 

While we are not a sub 1K team, we just were not able to get in. By the time access was restored, all the items we needed/wanted were gone!

Would it have been nice to have quantity limits in place so all teams had a reasonable chance to get what was needed? You bet!

Would it have been nice to have enough stock on hand to meet the demand created by the lack of quantity limits? Absolutely!

Are we going to whine because we didn't get anything we were looking for? Not a chance!

Welcome to the real world where ideologies like Gracious Professionalism and level playing fields collide with human nature the drive to win. This is just the hand we were dealt this year. It is just another obstacle the team will figure out how to overcome.

We are hanging on to our credits so they can be combined with the additional credits released after Kick-off in the hopes that the stock of the parts we need has been replenished and we can get not only what we want/need, but also get the things that are dictated by the game play strategy we come up with.