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-   -   Proposal: A New Way to Run FIRST Choice (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=109974)

JohnChristensen 11-12-2012 10:25

Proposal: A New Way to Run FIRST Choice
 
Yesterday was a mess for many teams including mine. Ultimately AndyMark was very helpful and made good on their mistake (shipping weight error on the window motors). However, for many other teams, the problems were not fixed to the same level as mine. This lead to a long rethinking of FIRST Choice.

Currently, unless a teams main or alt contact is ready and waiting at 12 PM EST for the opening, they will lose out on the best parts. Since these individuals are always adults, it can be assumed they have jobs to do elsewhere at that time. This disadvantages them significantly. The other issue is lack of quantity limits this year on the most valuable items (Talons, Classmates, Sidecars).

After thinking about this, I believe FIRST should implement a ranked choice draft. Basically, FIRST would release the point costs for all items and the credits per team about a month in advance. Teams would then have about three weeks to submit a ranked list of choices to FIRST. This list might look this for my team:

1. cRio
2. Sidecar
3. FESTO Valve
4. FESTO Valve
5. Talon
6. Left Window Motor
etc.

With these lists in hand FIRST would then do a random draft order. Each round every team would get the next highest item on their list that they have the credits to afford. In my case, since there were 30 sidecars this year, I might not get one in the second round, so FIRST would give my team a FESTO Valve (third on my list). The draft would end when all teams list were empty, or all teams credits were gone, or all the parts were gone.

Teams would be allowed to submit list for any number of credits. You could go way over the amount of credits given to make sure you participate late into the draft, or you could only submit for a few items to save credits for later. After the draft is complete, FIRST can then open up the remaining items and credits for purchases at a predetermined time (like Kickoff, when game pieces are available).

I think this would lessen the impact on all teams when things go wrong. It would also eliminate the need for this crazy mad dash to the parts.

John

Hallry 11-12-2012 10:35

Re: Proposal: A New Way to Run FIRST Choice
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnChristensen (Post 1200878)
With these lists in hand FIRST would then do a random draft order. Each round every team would get the next highest item on their list that they have the credits to afford. In my case, since there were 30 sidecars this year, I might not get one in the second round, so FIRST would give my team a FESTO Valve (third on my list). The draft would end when all teams list were empty, or all teams credits were gone, or all the parts were gone.

Teams would be allowed to submit list for any number of credits. You could go way over the amount of credits given to make sure you participate late into the draft, or you could only submit for a few items to save credits for later. After the draft is complete, FIRST can then open up the remaining items and credits for purchases at a predetermined time (like Kickoff, when game pieces are available).

I think this would lessen the impact on all teams when things go wrong. It would also eliminate the need for this crazy mad dash to the parts.

One must remember, there are now 2,500 teams in FIRST. This would require employees of FIRST to dedicate much time towards this, instead of other possible work.

Also, some might say that if they implement this, why wouldn't they do this for Regionals as well? Have teams send in lists of what competitions they want to attend and then do a draft based on that, instead of everyone logging on right at 12 noon when registration opens.

(Just trying to play Devil's advocate)

Andrew Schreiber 11-12-2012 10:43

Re: Proposal: A New Way to Run FIRST Choice
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Hallry (Post 1200881)
One must remember, there are now 2,500 teams in FIRST. This would require employees of FIRST to dedicate much time towards this, instead of other possible work.

Also, some might say that if they implement this, why wouldn't they do this for Regionals as well? Have teams send in lists of what competitions they want to attend and then do a draft based on that, instead of everyone logging on right at 12 noon when registration opens.

(Just trying to play Devil's advocate)

Actually, it can be done algorithmically with very little involvement from FIRST staff.

Foster 11-12-2012 10:47

Re: Proposal: A New Way to Run FIRST Choice
 
Quote:

(Just trying to play Devil's advocate)
It sounded to me like we had a volunteer to collect the orders, write and then put them into a program that would sort / random draw the orders and then electronically send them to Andy Mark for processing.

I love it when people step up to help!

apalrd 11-12-2012 10:50

Re: Proposal: A New Way to Run FIRST Choice
 
It should be possible to automate this task. This is a great data manipulation task for a computer.

The only question would be:
-What happens if they run out of the sidecar half way through the second round? How do you rank which teams get them? Do you claim that item out of stock for everyone in that round, and save the extra for next year, or do the current auction system for the excess?

If you implemented a similar system for regionals, you could set rules to prioritize teams based on geography when there are conflicts. Then, the teams that need to go there for travel reasons get in first. You could also prioritize further away teams in the later rounds, to promote more geographical diversity at regionals.




Seems like it would work, as long as they do proper numerical comparisons on numbers.

Clinton Bolinger 11-12-2012 10:50

Re: Proposal: A New Way to Run FIRST Choice
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew Schreiber (Post 1200883)
Actually, it can be done algorithmically with very little involvement from FIRST staff.

You would think the same thing about signing up for events. However, in Michigan we had to wait a 2 weeks to sign up for an event if we did not plan on attending our home event. Then those teams had to rush to sign up for two events on the same day.

But yes having teams create priority list for Events and FIRSTChoice would help relieve some of the system load, as well as, increase the level accessibility for teams (ie. mentors that have jobs that don't allow for them to have internet access at a specific time).

-Clinton-

Jon Stratis 11-12-2012 10:55

Re: Proposal: A New Way to Run FIRST Choice
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by apalrd (Post 1200888)
The only question would be:
-What happens if they run out of the sidecar half way through the second round? How do you rank which teams get them? Do you claim that item out of stock for everyone in that round, and save the extra for next year, or do the current auction system for the excess?

Randomize the team order list at the start of each round (so you may be the first team in round 1, but the last team in round 2). Then whoever gets the items first gets them.

You could also do a semi-randomization algorithm that would weigh being highly ranked in early rounds more, so those who are unlucky and ranked near the bottom in the first round have a higher chance of being ranked near the top in the second, and so on.

Andrew Schreiber 11-12-2012 10:56

Re: Proposal: A New Way to Run FIRST Choice
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Clinton Bolinger (Post 1200889)
You would think the same thing about signing up for events. However, in Michigan we had to wait a 2 weeks to sign up for an event if we did not plan on attending our home event. Then those teams had to rush to sign up for two events on the same day.

But yes having teams create priority list for Events and FIRSTChoice would help relieve some of the system load, as well as, increase the level accessibility for teams (ie. mentors that have jobs that don't allow for them to have internet access at a specific time).

-Clinton-

I WOULD. However, my logical assumption would be that minimizing travel distance would be my priority metric. This is a naive assumption though since it could throw people into events they cannot attend for other reasons (timing for example). Whereas parts selection is relatively simple and doesn't have as many constraints. It'd be a simple matter of optimizing the top choices for teams. I guess I could apply this logic to events too.

ferret_guy 11-12-2012 11:00

Re: Proposal: A New Way to Run FIRST Choice
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Hallry (Post 1200881)
One must remember, there are now 2,500 teams in FIRST. This would require employees of FIRST to dedicate much time towards this, instead of other possible work.

I disagree this would simply be an update the the FIRST choice system it would be a relativity easy update to implement.

Clinton Bolinger 11-12-2012 11:05

Re: Proposal: A New Way to Run FIRST Choice
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew Schreiber (Post 1200893)
I WOULD. However, my logical assumption would be that minimizing travel distance would be my priority metric. This is a naive assumption though since it could throw people into events they cannot attend for other reasons (timing for example). Whereas parts selection is relatively simple and doesn't have as many constraints. It'd be a simple matter of optimizing the top choices for teams. I guess I could apply this logic to events too.

Yes.

The priority should be set by the individual team (both for Events and FIRSTChoice). If team think the travel distance is important then they would use that metric when organising it. If traveling to events they have never attend then the sort their list accordingly.

As for Michigan and "home" events you easily run through teams that have signed up for their home event. Then you go to the teams pick list for events.

I still think you can still have people make a list for their 1st event. Then wait 2 weeks to use a new or same list for their 2nd events.

-Clinton-

Andrew Schreiber 11-12-2012 11:06

Re: Proposal: A New Way to Run FIRST Choice
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jon Stratis (Post 1200891)
Randomize the team order list at the start of each round (so you may be the first team in round 1, but the last team in round 2). Then whoever gets the items first gets them.

You could also do a semi-randomization algorithm that would weigh being highly ranked in early rounds more, so those who are unlucky and ranked near the bottom in the first round have a higher chance of being ranked near the top in the second, and so on.

Or simply write an algorithm that minimizes a Badness. And we define Badness as the rank on the team's list. If everyone got their first choice the badness would be 2500. If everyone got their 3rd choice it'd be 7500. From then we just run any of a handful of optimization processes on it until we get an acceptable solution.

Nemo 11-12-2012 11:06

Re: Proposal: A New Way to Run FIRST Choice
 
A draft order system would be fine with me. It would solve the race issue that we have this year. Fantasy sports leagues do this; it's not a big deal for computers to sort that out and generate a list of who gets what after the ranking lists are finalized. You just pick your draft system's rules and run the algorithm. The most difficult thing would probably be communicating how it works to the team main contacts and getting them to properly fill out the ranking form online. But that's certainly doable.

Siri 11-12-2012 11:12

Re: Proposal: A New Way to Run FIRST Choice
 
They do something similar for FLL qualifiers already. I don't know how FIRST runs the "draft" (FLL teams only get 1 official event), but each team picks their 1st-3rd venue choices. This could be automated similarly to the proposed FIRST Choice draft, while still retaining the override procedures that FRC uses now in terms of late-registering rookies, teams having to attend a specific event for travel reasons, sponsorship, etc.

These two ideas (FIRST Choice and event selection) may actually decrease the workload for FIRST HQ after the capital investment in design--which doesn't have to be done <1mo before kickoff. It would certainly mean less "clean up" than issues like this cause. Even if the system does break, it wouldn't be such a time crunch.

Andy A. 11-12-2012 11:20

Re: Proposal: A New Way to Run FIRST Choice
 
The most interesting idea posed to me so far was a blind bidding process.

The 'auction' lasts a week. You place your bids up to some maximum (say 100 points). At the end of the week the items are 'awarded' to the teams who bid the highest for that item. Ties are broken randomly. The process then goes into another round of bidding, with teams allowed to redistribute their remaining points if they lost a bid.

Another idea was to start all teams at 0 points, and start adding them over time- say 10 points a day, such that each team might be able to afford one 'high value' item a day. really desirable things, like a class mate or Crio might cost a couple days allowance.

Or we could just get randomized kit or parts- it'd be at least as fair as the current system, which seems largely depending on how fast you can click through check out forms and whether the Server gods smile upon you that moment.

maddoctor90 11-12-2012 11:25

Re: Proposal: A New Way to Run FIRST Choice
 
I would rather see FIRST spend their time fixing other issues...

If teams can't figure out a way to handle FIRST Choice with GP (come together and agree to not horde the best items), then a simple limiting of items teams can get would do.


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