Re: 2013 ACTUAL game hint!!!
 

Maybe "A DINNER, MISSED/HOLDING WEIGHT" is talking about the strategy required to succeed. Perhaps what looks like it will be the best to do to get the most points, isn't necessary to be good. If we miss those points, perhaps we will still be able to earn the same amount of points doing something else?

Re: 2013 ACTUAL game hint!!!
 

That sounds like a good idea in theory, but in practice I think it would end up more along the lines of "1114 is on my team in this match? BETTER STACK ALL MY POINTS NOW"

I'm putting my bets on one part of the game involving collecting more game pieces than the other team, and either handing them off to another robot or moving them to a central goal. The weight of these game pieces, once collected, is in some way important.

Re: 2013 ACTUAL game hint!!!
 

Awhile back someone said something about the presence of 3 meaning that instead of "3 minute games" and "3 different alliances" that it was 3 different game pieces.

This could potentially be very interesting.

This could mean the GDC has three completely different game pieces so that one robot can't do it all. This would make alliance picking a lot more interesting because you would want a 2 robots that can do the tasks you can't.

I don't know, just an idea.

And, just saying, everyone is thinking a game with real water. What if it is just water themed? (Like pirates, beach party, snow?, etc.)

Happy Holidays everyone!

Re: 2013 ACTUAL game hint!!!
 

Remember, the first half of the clue seems to points to "Seal". And what are Seals well known for? Balancing. Balancing objects on their nose, or balancing themselves on their flippers.

"A DINNER MISSED, HOLDING WEIGHT"
Quite often dinner is the largest meal of the day. Missing it may mean loosing out on the biggest caloric intake of the day. In the past couple years, the End Game has been a HUGE determining factor in the outcome of a match.
I'm guessing that the End Game this year may not be any different.

To put the clue into play here:

The End Game will have a Balance Platform/Scale in the middle. The End Game is won by the Alliance that places, or stacks, the most weight on their side, thus tipping the scale in their favor. If you're caught "HOLDING WEIGHT", you miss "DINNER", or, the bonus points.

Re: 2013 ACTUAL game hint!!!
 

The first two lines of the clue is the subject (a seal), and the second two lines refer to what the seal is doing (unable to eat because it's holding an object with its snout).

The wild speculation is fun, so by all means continue. But for me, the clue was solved many pages ago.

Now, how do we interpret this hint? I predict a large ball (trackball?) will have to be elevated to score points, either to be placed upon on a high goal or by a robot sitting in a safe zone for the endgame points (each alliance elevates their opponent's ball for co-opertition points?).

Re: 2013 ACTUAL game hint!!!
 

ok so what i think is maybe tripple play again due to the recuring #3 the most repeted number in the hole hint is 3 so triple play ?and also in 2005 (tripple play year) the robots where smaller that explains the small kit frame and the hint was decoded to A ROSE, KISSED
SINGER GREAT
A DINNER, MISSED
HOLDING WEIGHT
the last line makes me think it is even more

Re: 2013 ACTUAL game hint!!!
 

I am guessing that the robot sizes have decreased in order to fit in the sizing boxes with the bumpers on. A 30-31" robot frame with bumpers would fit in the old 38" box. It would then also seem likely that the width would do the same but that makes for a particularly narrow robot. 20"??

That does not seem likely unless the boxes were rebuilt square which would give the robot a 30 X 30 configuration...

plus bumpers giving something like the old 38 on all sides

just my 2 cents. I guess we will find out Jan 5th

See you all on the field!!

Re: 2013 ACTUAL game hint!!!
 

First off...
"This is one of the first puns/jokes/whatever that I've seen on CD that doesn't make me immediately facepalm.

Well done, good sir."
Thank you Libby.

Next, I think that we are digressing from the actual hint a bit to much. While Pi is relevant, I don't think that we really needed that post..... Also, I think that we are stretching this hint a bit too far. While the GDC hints are often vague, they usually have a fairly direct correlation, the trick is just finding it. With the exception of the "moonfish" in '09, I think that most of the hints haven't required so much stretching.

I also think that we are placing too much weight in interpreting the hint as a clue to the actual gameplay. I don't remember a hint that actually told us how the game would be played. Most of the time, the hints reference part of the game that is insignificant, such as the name (Logomotion) or the field elements (Breakaway & Rack and Roll).

Also, I don't think that some of these suggestions are even plausible. 2v2v2 games would be cool, but take one look at the elimination bracket and I think that all of us would rather stick with the traditional 3v3. Betting points on games? As fun as that may be, that quickly would end poorly too (See the 1114 comment). Most regionals do not have enough parity in the competition to enable such a system. Teams would see that their alliance was far superior than their opponents and immediately jump to betting all points. Barring a red card, those teams would jump up far too high in the standings. Also, imagine trying to keep track of how many points each team bets, that is just begging for a mistake.

I think that we are on the right track with the cryptogram approach. The seal references might or might not be intentional. We probably should accept that we might be on the entirely wrong track with this. We should probably try and use this hint to come up with some sort of game detail that is not actual gameplay.

If you want to determine how the game actually would be played, I recommend that you see the post referring to FIRST trends over the years.
2011 resembled 2007
2012 resembled 2006
2013 will resemble 2005?

It is true that FIRST seems to alternate between a sport and a concept game and between a ball and an object game. Seeing as last year was a sport game with a ball, it seems to show that this year will be a concept game with an object.

Also, FIRST has not used a large and unwieldy game piece in a while (Think trackballs from 2008). I think that we are due for something huge like that.

Re: 2013 ACTUAL game hint!!!
 

Anyone thinking, or hoping, that Seal will be at the kick-off? What does the star-tracker say about him or Will.iam on the 5th?

Re: 2013 ACTUAL game hint!!!
 

Agreed

Re: 2013 ACTUAL game hint!!!
 

So i just read through a majority of this thread in one day, and I think I can provide a different perspective than those who are only reading the recent posts.....

I have an idea of what the game will be:

Going off of the "fish scale" theory (first reference here: ), we will have to hang objects (return of the tetras? References 2005) from hooks at either end of the field, these hooks will be attached to scales so as the read the weight on them. Alliances score is based off of the weight on it, rather than the game pieces, thus adding an end game bonus to robots hanging from them. The line "never gonna let you down" refers to not having the robot fall after hanging, which will obviously reduce your score. The hooks are arranged into a triangle (there's a 3). Bonus points are awarded if one of three (and another) large track balls are balanced on top of the hooks (seals balance balls on their noses)

Just my 2 cents, feel free to completely disagree

Re: 2013 ACTUAL game hint!!!
 

I think the second line may have been missed by all. If the clue is referring to the singer Seal, then a "Singer great" may be a reference to the "Great Seal" of which, there are two for the United States.



This is referred to as the Second Great Seal of the United States found on the one dollar bill. It clearly shows the pyramid: are we back to tetra shapes? The latin phrase is generally translated as the "new order of the world" which could be viewed as Dean's attempt to change society, or may be referring to a major change in FIRST's FRC game. The latter could be confirmation that robot dimensions are in fact changing. A smaller robot foot print would allow for more robots on the field. Many have pointed out that three alliances is not practical, but what if FIRST is making another leap forward and we are going to 4 vs. 4? Last year's asymmetrical driver's stations had one station smaller than the other two. Was this a test to see what impact it would have on teams? Few, if any teams complained about the reduced space for the drive team. So First could conceivably fit four driver stations in the end zone. I'm not sure what that would do to the Human Player position.

The increased robots per matched has been tied to longer game times as well. Could increasing the match to 3:00 minutes be one of the changes recommended by the Einstein report? If a robot or radio were to disconnect from the field, a longer match would possibly allow that machine to reconnect before the match ended thus reducing the impact of a dead robot. Also with four robots per alliance, one dead robot still leaves an alliance functioning at 75% capacity as opposed to 66% capacity for a three robot alliance.

Also, the pyramid is topped by the all seeing eye. Is camera vision playing a major part in this year's game?

Then there is the Great Seal of the United States:



Start with the latin phrase "e pluribus unum" which translates to "out of many, one", many robots one alliance.

Next is the radiant disk above the American bald eagle’s head the stars of the original 13 states are composed to form a Solomon’s Seal symbolic of the union of soul and body, spirit and matter, or the combination of the alchemical signs for fire and water. Each of the interlaced equilateral triangles, one upward turned, the other downward, is a Pythagorean Tetractys, or ‘perfect triangle of fourness,’ of nine points, four to a side, enclosing a tenth representing the generative center. The alchemical meaning is representative of the combination of opposites and transmutation. Which could be point to a change in robot dimensions again. The tetractys also is a figure composed of ten points in four rows:

The Tetractys represented the organization of space:

the first row represented zero-dimensions (a point)
the second row represented one-dimension (a line of two points)
the third row represented two-dimensions (a plane defined by a triangle of three points)
the fourth row represented three-dimensions (a tetrahedron defined by four points)

So a tetrahedron game piece is a possibility.

Lastly, the pyramid also symbolizes a triangle or delta, which is the mathematical symbol for change.

Anyone else want to go down the Great Seal road?

Re: 2013 ACTUAL game hint!!!
 

We'll i don't know about you all...but i'll wait for the fourth hint that comes out January 5th before i speculate on this.

Re: 2013 ACTUAL game hint!!!
 

In my opinion the first hint said it all. We are all being rick rolled by the FRC community and best bet is to wait until the 5th.

Re: 2013 ACTUAL game hint!!!
 

There's a margin for error, but I'm pretty sure there's a 747 leaving Heathrow tomorrow at 6:30 in the evening for Baltimore. Apparently, it's carrying the field. Not sure how that can be true, but I've only been on the case for 8 seconds.

-best TV show ever.

Re: 2013 ACTUAL game hint!!!
 

What?

Re: 2013 ACTUAL game hint!!!
 

It's a scene from Sherlock in which Sherlock Holmes looks at a string of seemingly random numbers, and finds out, in 8 seconds, that it's referring to a plane flight that terrorists are targeting.

Re: 2013 ACTUAL game hint!!!
 

I never really involve myself too much in game hints, but, looking at this train of thought could relate to "raising the bar"....Robots were left "holding weight" (suspending from the bar in the center of the field), and aside from 190, it often meant the possibility of missing out on capping a goal. All the points have been made. Mobile goals, large balls or bonuses, timed release of game pieces.

That said, I wouldn't mind some rework of 2004 or 2005, both were great to play and watch.

Re: 2013 ACTUAL game hint!!!
 

Wait, what :eek: ?
I thought Frank said the next clue is coming out 1/6? :confused: :confused: :confused:

Re: 2013 ACTUAL game hint!!!
 

This is very possible. When I asked RoboRealm for a copy for us to use to test the Kinect's IR vision capabilities, they gave me some interesting feedback.

Re: 2013 ACTUAL game hint!!!
 

To miss a meal is also called "fasting".

Maybe we will have to pick up something heavy and move fast.

Re: 2013 ACTUAL game hint!!!
 

Any discussion regarding "holding weight"? The force to retain or hold an arrow in place?

Re: 2013 ACTUAL game hint!!!
 

What if they split kickoff into two days?

So on January 5th you get half the game and on January 6th you'd get the second half.

I don't know how I'd hold up for that one day time gap.

GDC has mastered cliffhangers.

Re: 2013 ACTUAL game hint!!!
 

Not to ignore the genius so far (have to admire the pi-ciphering), but feeling even more like there's a shooting game. "A DINNER MISSED, HOLDING WEIGHT" would easily parallel an archer going hungry when they don't release the bow.

As for the SEAL reference, that's for the other brain cell to work on.

Re: 2013 ACTUAL game hint!!!
 

To me, the first thing that came to mind when I heard "A DINNER, MISSED/HOLDING WEIGHT" was dumbwaiters. They can carry meals between floors, for example from a dining room or kitchen to the room of someone not attending the formal meal, and they definitely hold weight.

Re: 2013 ACTUAL game hint!!!
 

I can't see that happening, they have absolutely no reason to.

As for the hint, here's what I've come up with:

I agree with the theory suggesting the first two lines point to Seal. I think maybe we'll need to "seal" the scoring area to get more points (for example, with a trackball, as was suggested previously). The earlier this happens, the more points you get, so you'll have top find the balance between blocking the goal and scoring. The last two lines may suggest this as well. By blocking the goal, it "misses dinner" meaning it doesn't get anymore game pieces, yet it "holds weight" because the alliance still gets points, or rather keeps the points it would've made without "losing dinner".

Reading through what I just wrote, looks like a serious stretch... But heck, it might be right, in which case I'd feel stupid about not posting it.

Anyway, regardless of the hint, I think we'll see a return of a feature that disappeared in recent years: the center of the field being the focus of the game, both strategicly and physically (e.g. 2003's huge ramp, 2007's scoring pegs). I also agree with the common theory: this year will be an arm year. Though, I don't think this game will resemble Triple Play that much, because I don't beleave the GDC will follow the same pattern for 3 years in a row.

Re: 2013 ACTUAL game hint!!!
 

Could a "Dinner missed" be refering to "The Hunger Games"? ;)

Re: 2013 ACTUAL game hint!!!
 

This almost sounds like a robotic gambling game, and I don't think FIRST would like to endorse gambling... it would be an interesting challenge though

Re: 2013 ACTUAL game hint!!!
 

That would certainly fit in with the "arts" theme

Re: 2013 ACTUAL game hint!!!
 

It was stated earlier, but the like about A DINNER, MISSED and HOLDING WEIGHT makes me think of collegiate wrestling. Perhaps a pushing match of some sort... Maybe robot sumo? If this was the case, the 3 motor trannies that recently came out may be of use.

Just my $0.02.

Re: 2013 ACTUAL game hint!!!
 

"Holding Weight" just makes me think that at some point in the game, a robot will be completely off the ground, possibly being held by another robot or hanging....but those were already done in 2007 and 2004...

Re: 2013 ACTUAL game hint!!!
 

For the record, so was bridge balancing. Many end games have been repeated before: Lifting Yourself, lifting others. There's no reason they wouldnt do it again.

Re: 2013 ACTUAL game hint!!!
 

I think this is a reference to the 2011 ftc endgame where robots had to hold buckets as high as possible for extra points. Maybe were doing a variation of this in this years game.

Re: 2013 ACTUAL game hint!!!
 

I doubt that FIRST would end a game where full-size FRC robots would be holding up game pieces really high as students and field reset people were on the field.

Re: 2013 ACTUAL game hint!!!
 

The wrestling thing makes the most sense to me. It sounds to me like a hint that the robot will need to have a lighter final weight. A dinner missed would refer to the sacrifice that would have to be made in the design process.

Re: 2013 ACTUAL game hint!!!
 

I wasnt thinking it would be exactly like the ftc endgame. I was more leaning toward it being a variation of it, like we have to lift a heavy game piece a few feet in the air or something to that effect.

Re: 2013 ACTUAL game hint!!!
 

I've completely figured it out:

Robots will have to move around, and also displace objects in order to score points.

What do I win?

Re: 2013 ACTUAL game hint!!!
 

Congratulations!

Your team gets to build its very own robot, starting January 5th. :D

Re: 2013 ACTUAL game hint!!!
 

You win a complete digital collection of all of Dean Kamen's FIRST speeches!

Re: 2013 ACTUAL game hint!!!
 

The Redhead(tm) just came over and asked, "WHAT THE HECK ARE YOU GIGGLING ABOUT?"

Well done. Well done.

Re: 2013 ACTUAL game hint!!!
 

:D

Re: 2013 ACTUAL game hint!!!
 

I think that something like this, except where the robot pulls down on a pulley or something, a rope or somesuch, might be in the running.

Re: 2013 ACTUAL game hint!!!
 

I was would even bet against that, in the safety conscious world we are in today. Could easily crush someone's toes.

Re: 2013 ACTUAL game hint!!!
 

In 2010 we had to lift our whole robot off the ground. In 2007 we had to lift alliance partners.

I wouldn't bet on much of anything where FIRST games are concerned (except that this year will absolutely not be a water game).

Re: 2013 ACTUAL game hint!!!
 

So every 3 years robots have to lift robots? There's yet another pattern to consider. :p

Re: 2013 ACTUAL game hint!!!
 

2010 was probably one of the more dangerous endgames FIRST has done in the modern-era. 2007 wasnt that sketchy because robots were on pretty darn sturdy ramps that could allow a robot to just be lifted off or roll off and they were only 12 inches off the ground.

Re: 2013 ACTUAL game hint!!!
 

you know...

all this speculation and ideas of what the game might be...and since
we know at least someone from the GDC reads this....its probably
giving them ideas for other games if it hasn't already.

Re: 2013 ACTUAL game hint!!!
 

Yeah, but in 2007 robots really wernt "lifted" by means of like a few feet.

Yes, it is possible, but Im just saying that I dont think they would. Im sure they do a pro/con analysis of each idea, and safety has to be on there.

Re: 2013 ACTUAL game hint!!!
 

From talking to people in FTC, it would be a "bad" idea to completely copy the FTC endgame, as apparently people would just build incredibly tall scissor lifts that became a ridiculous source of points. Of course, there were defensive robots that would hold down other bots, but I don't think that FRC could safely do that.

Re: 2013 ACTUAL game hint!!!
 

+1 to this. Sounds about right

Re: 2013 ACTUAL game hint!!!
 

The points were intended to be for stacked crates with balls in them, but a ruling made an elevated crate with contents score too. After that it was lifting without stacking to create the situation you mention.

Re: 2013 ACTUAL game hint!!!
 

Well then maybe if the intent was just to be holding the crates on top of your robot (thats what i could see from the video), we are just holding something heavy on top of our robots for points or for the endgame

Re: 2013 ACTUAL game hint!!!
 

I got about halfway through the replies on this thread and then it hit me. The game piece will be a Nerf football and we need to kick them through a goal post for three (3) points. Now I need to go ahead and read the rest of the posts.

Re: 2013 ACTUAL game hint!!!
 

Wait you're missing the correct placement of the comma.

"A DINNER, MISSED
HOLDING WEIGHT"

Could "a dinner" be referring to the act of dining, like a Dinner Date? So could this line be referring to "A DATE, MISSED HOLDING WEIGHT"?

What date could be missed?

With the expansion of the competition season, the former Robot Ship Day, now Stop Build Day, is only nine days before Week One competition starts. Could we be seeing an end to Stop Build Day? It's on the FRC schedule still, but that could be a red herring.

Re: 2013 ACTUAL game hint!!!
 

I'd rather see an end to the withholding allowance!

Re: 2013 ACTUAL game hint!!!
 

Why? I'm personally a huge fan of the withholding allowance. It allowed our team to do a ton of iteration.

Re: 2013 ACTUAL game hint!!!
 

I agree. Large witholding really means no stop build date. Teams can either copy more successful robots, or keep developing a practice bot, and carry in whole mechanisms.

Before witholding (and bumpers) robot designs were more varied.

Re: 2013 ACTUAL game hint!!!
 

Most mentors I know would like to see an end to the withholding allowance. Six weeks is enough time to ask them to donate, without turning it into a 14 week build season. The competition has become somewhat of a copying excercise now rather than an original design competition as it used to be. The withholding was originally started when the new crio-based control system was introduced, to allow teams more time work with it. I've never known what the reasoning is behind continuing it.

Re: 2013 ACTUAL game hint!!!
 

If we miss school aka diner for weather conditions we have a policy in place this year that allows an adional weight allowance that we can bring sealed after ship date to an event.

Re: 2013 ACTUAL game hint!!!
 

There has been no indication from FRC HQ on this. Where are you getting your information?

Re: 2013 ACTUAL game hint!!!
 

Lol I am saying that is my interpretation on the game hint. The hint can be anything

National Youth Development Training Centre.
 

The name of the Company is Databux International Ltd. This Company will give training in advance certificate in any section of computer, technical training to development national youth by name data entry to earn money online National Youth Development Training Centre.

Google Add sense started for money earning of many people day by day, there are lot of people who had jumped into the Google Add sense bandwagon and money earning in hundreds and even thousands, data entry to earn money online thousands dollars earning from Google Add sense.

It’s absolutely possible. And it’s waiting for you. Notice something already? I did not greet you with “dear friend” or with that little piece of programming code that puts today’s date at the top of the page. That’s because I have no interest in selling you some silly “system” data entry to earn money online where the claims say you’ll make a lot of money with no work.

Re: 2013 ACTUAL game hint!!!
 

Huh?

<R41 from 2008, R31 in 2007, and R29 in 2006>
Teams may bring a maximum of 25 pounds of custom FABRICATED ITEMS (SPARE PARTS, REPLACEMENT PARTS, and/or UPGRADE PARTS) to each competition event to be used to repair and/or upgrade their ROBOT at the competition site. All other FABRICATED ITEMS to be used on the ROBOT during the competition shall arrive at the competition venue packed in the shipping crate with the ROBOT.

The weight limit has varied somewhat over the years (40lb in '09, 65 in '10, 30lb in '11-12), but it's quite old.

Re: 2013 ACTUAL game hint!!!
 

As jspatz1 said, it prevents copycatting, but it also gives mentors (and students!) a break. Even if you keep a practice robot, you're not redesigning entire systems for the weeks (and weeks and weeks) between competitions.

I know it sounds weird, but as I get older, I have a harder and harder time working ten-to-fourteen 100+ hour weeks in a row. (The Redhead(tm) also isn't a big fan of the withholding allowance. When I started FIRST, she was only alone for six and a half weeks straight.)

Re: 2013 ACTUAL game hint!!!
 

Have you guys seen the FTC Challenge? (I think someone may have mentioned it, but my memory might serve me wrong):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T4HU3EJ-Sgc

This challenge, combined with the 3rd clue, makes me wonder if the idea of lifting weighted objects will carry over into the FRC challenge...

Re: 2013 ACTUAL game hint!!!
 

I would disagree. The reason there are fewer varied designs in FRC now has nothing, or very very little, to do with the withholding allowance rule. The reason for fewer varied designed is the volume of game rules strangling creativity. Thinking outside the box used to be celebrated, now it is often viewed as lawyering the rules.

The GDC has used the rules to force the game to be played as they envisioned it being played. Before the rules strangled creativity, some games were pretty broken by how teams played them. Classic to this was Stack Attack. The GDC viewed this as a tote stacking game, it quickly degenerated into just knock over every stack and get on top of the ramp. Some teams removed their tote stacking mechanisms during the season emphasizing that teams had made tote stacking irrelevant.

Also, before the withholding allowance I know that several teams in several different years designed major revisions between competitions and were able to do a ground up rebuild of their robot on Thursday of a following competition or at Championships. So the withholding allowance rules didn't allow for iterations or copying, they somewhat formalized the process.

A truly competitive team will continue to improve their robot throughout the season.

Re: 2013 ACTUAL game hint!!!
 

HAHA! I second this motion!

Re: 2013 ACTUAL game hint!!!
 

"First" hint: Rick Astley pic/Rick Roll hint
- Rick rolling started in 2007
- FRC game in 2007: Rack 'n' Roll
- anagram of "Rick Astley" is "Rack Ye Lit"

"Second" hint: reference to Mesoamerica calendar
- 'coincidence' --> to coincide --> overlap geometrically
- calendar is round, has rings

Official hint: pi-cipher poem
First couplet --> Seal's Kiss From a Rose
- released 1994, mentions tower in first line
- FRC game in 1994: Tower Power
Second couplet --> clue to game action
- "a dinner, missed" --> missed meal, to "fast"
- "holding weight" --> to carry
- 'fast carry' could mean to haul something

From this analysis, and the repetition of the number 3 in postings, I'm guessing there will be three scoring stations, most likely a tower/rack that teams can load/dump game elements into. But opposing alliances will be able to steal points somehow, so holding elements til the end might be encouraged. The scoring towers/racks might have light indicators showing which has the higher number of game elements by weight.
Also I might have just wasted too much time thinking about all this and will be very disappointed on Kickoff day!

Re: 2013 ACTUAL game hint!!!
 

Nice analysis. Maybe a mixture game of 2005 and 2007.

Re: 2013 ACTUAL game hint!!!
 

THIS. THIS AGAIN.

I talked to a member of the VEX GDC, about de-scoring in Sack Attack. He said, if they didn't want teams to de-score, they would have designed the troughs so it was hard to de-score. The GDC could do a lot of things in the design of the field elements and point values to make the game play out like they wanted without making rules against gameplay.

A great example these rules is the 2012 side-of-bridge hook. It is not simple to design and build a lightweight, compact solution to hang off of the side bridge. IMHO, it was a very creative and elegant solution to the three-robots-on-a-bridge problem which was outlawed because the GDC didn't like that method of playing the game. If they didn't want teams to hang off the side, maybe they should have removed the side flange.

Re: 2013 ACTUAL game hint!!!
 

^
That.

Re: 2013 ACTUAL game hint!!!
 

I agree with your general sentiment, but considering the purpose of the side flanges (keeping robots on the ramp), I think this would be one case where the GDC could say "don't hang off the side flange please" and not stifle creativity too much. A *few* rules that limit designs aren't a problem - what's aggravating to me is the sheer number of them.

I'm not 100% sure that an expanded ruleset would make the *average* team more creative, but there would certainly be more outliers.

Re: 2013 ACTUAL game hint!!!
 

I guess I was remembering that they dramatically increased the allowance in 2009. At the time the reason given was to allow more time with the new control system, but they have continued the larger allowances. An even bigger change is that it used to be prohibited to work on actual robot components, upgrades, or software after build season. We were allowed two 5-hour "fix-it" work sessions after ship date, and between each regional, where we could build or repair spares or minor modifications, or work on software, but there was no on-going redesign and fabrication allowed after build season. Your robot was what it was at the end of build season, and that's what you competed with.

Re: 2013 ACTUAL game hint!!!
 

I think that this convo. might be in the wrong thread...
Please correct me if I am wrong..

Re: 2013 ACTUAL game hint!!!
 

I won't spend my time speculating on the hint, however I will say that it is difficult for me to ignore the number of indicators that have appeared over the past months that seem to suggest FIRST is moving to a 4v4 format for 2013. The smaller KOP chassis dimensions, new 4" wheels from AM, and the fact that 2012 saw a driver station in what once was an area solely reserved for human players all seem to support this idea. I suspect the new size requirements for 2013 could be 28" by 32" in order to help offset the space taken up by an additional 2 teams on the playing field. Moving to a 4v4 would be a win-win for FIRST and FIRST teams. Teams would be happy due to the increased number of matches it would allow them. More teams would be playing Saturday afternoon, helping to inspire more students. From a business perspective on FIRST's end, the move would be a home run. They would increase their "capacity" significantly while maintaining a similar amount of expenses for all events. Championships would become even bigger this year, and the amount of matches teams would have would increase notably. The move would also make a big dent in attempting to help make FIRST more affordable for all (more registration fees vs. identical overhead). The change would also buy time (a couple years) for FIRST to figure out what they are going to do with the rapidly unsustainable qualification structure of championship.

Lastly, and this is more of a wild guess that what was stated above... If the game is indeed 4v4 I predict that we will see a mostly open field that is void of major obstacles like last year. The major reason being that the GDC would be cautious not to "clutter" the field with the addition of 2 more teams on the playing field.

Re: 2013 ACTUAL game hint!!!
 

For what it's worth, we aren't certain the KOP chassis is smaller, we just know it all fits in a smaller box.

Re: 2013 ACTUAL game hint!!!
 

And we know it is compatible with a belt drive system.

Re: 2013 ACTUAL game hint!!!
 

I think we're stretching a bit there

• We have no confirmation on the smaller KOP size, and
• It's my understanding that 4" plaction wheels have been available on and from Andymark for years, the only new development this year is that they're offering a new tread for them similar to the 6" HiGrips

And while there's no reason not to speculate... I don't think this is very firm grounding to do so from.

Re: 2013 ACTUAL game hint!!!
 

Agreed. It is valuable for teams to be able to make large-chassis robots but never an absolute necessity for success. Rookie teams, while creative, typically do not find ways to make effective us of a full-size chassis. Thus, the change in kit bot size is probably the result of AM and FIRST's push in the past few years to cut material costs.

Since this is a year where the pattern suggests a non-ball game pieces, what are outlying (frequently used or never used) shapes for game pieces? Tetras have been mentioned in this thread, which seem cool but would be less durable than even the orbit balls from Lunacy. Life rafts seem an obvious possibility.

Re: 2013 ACTUAL game hint!!!
 

...yes, Andymark is now making robots with multiple sections where they have to bolt together instead of making sturdy, one-piece sides. I'm sorry, but that makes zero sense.

Re: 2013 ACTUAL game hint!!!
 

Good point. Many people are assuming to much, I think.

Re: 2013 ACTUAL game hint!!!
 

Ok, though I can't say I noticed much of a difference. I know we were far from the only team seriously iterating during those 10hrs every week (that had a regional) to "manufacture SPARE, REPLACEMENT and UPGRADE PARTS and develop software". Given the heavier NI system, the allowance hasn't changed much aside from the '09 switch and '10 snow.


Regardless, has the hint ever alluded to a construction rule? Most of the ones I remember are field-related--and pretty direct at that. 2012 said ball shooting, 2011 said tower climbing and logo pieces, 2010 said soccer ball and divided field, 2009 said ice game, 2008 said hurdling and race track... Some were more difficult than others (kudos to the guy who did the 2010 soccer ball calculations), but very specific information was there for those geniuses out there who could get it.

I suspect we're looking for something more direct (arena, game or robot) as far as the poem goes...though other than lifting allies and coopertating, I have no rational guess as to what. Hey, I never said I was one of those geniuses.


As far as the AM chassis size, how long has the 20" long Nano been for sale? While I could see the robot size limits going down, is it possible that Andy simply wants to provide Nano instead of the C-Base? I don't know about performance or assembly (trickier?) trade-offs, but it is cheaper ($479 vs $549). Note that nothing on the site currently sells for exactly the PDV value ($450), and the Nano is actually among the closest.


He's talking about these.

EDIT:
@dotbran: I'm still waiting for traffic cones and nerf footballs. ...Just not simultaneously.

Re: 2013 ACTUAL game hint!!!
 

Water game 100%

Re: 2013 ACTUAL game hint!!!
 

Although it sure would be interesting to find out on the 5th that we need a smaller chassis, I really don't think the size will change. As I said earlier, the GDC tends to stick with what works. I find it especially hard to believe that they would both change the chassis dimensions and the number of robots on the field at the same time, since both haven't really changed since 2005, and neither present huge problems.

In case others on this thread didn't know, the reason they chose the 38" by 28" frame size was to allow robots with bumpers to fit through standard sized doors. Not that smaller frames would change this, but the 28" number wasn't just pulled out of a hat. I would suspect that the kitbot is just smaller than usual, but I could easily be surprised come kickoff.

Changing the withholding allowance wouldn't "level the playing field." Powerhouse teams don't just iterate heavily, they often just get how to play a game successfully because they've had successful designs in the past. Sure, all the best teams upgrade their robot, keep parts of it back for software, or just manufacture parts after build is over. But if they had to ship their final robot, it would be very good anyway. Eliminating the withholding allowance would hurt the teams who didn't get the robot right the first time (the non-powerhouse teams) a lot more than those who mostly did (the powerhouse teams).

Re: 2013 ACTUAL game hint!!!
 

In my experience it is the powerhouse teams who withhold the most weight and have the resources and expertise to take best advantage of the extra time.

Re: 2013 ACTUAL game hint!!!
 

It's not that the powerhouse teams get the time to iterate, it's that the teams who use the time given to them to iterate end up being powerhouse teams.

Iteration is something everyone can do.

Re: 2013 ACTUAL game hint!!!
 

There are several totally plausible designs that could feature a multi-part chassis rail. Maybe a chassis with angled ends (think like this \_/), or a chassis with a transmission bolted to the end, or a system where the outer parts of the frame move out to tension the outermost wheels. Maybe it won't even be square. Perhaps the game will have an incentive for a smaller chassis, but not a requirement. We just don't know.

We're not a powerhouse team and we have always brought in as much weight as possible. Iteration is a necessary but not sufficient criteria to being a powerhouse team.

Re: 2013 ACTUAL game hint!!!
 

Traffic cones are very high on my list of game pieces that would be great for FRC. Frisbees or other disks would be interesting.

Foam cubes like VEX elevation would also be fun.

I'm dreading the day they finally give us small balls. Racquetballs would be so hard with FRC robots.

Has anyone else noticed this new product on andymark?

http://www.andymark.com/product-p/am-2414.htm

Re: 2013 ACTUAL game hint!!!
 

Yep - a long-running joke has finally been made into a T-Shirt.

Truthfully just making a robots control system accessible yet waterproof might be a challenge in itself not including the fact that it would most likely require some type of easily manipulated propulsion system.

Lastly would the venues used for the competitions even have a area where a water game could be played.

I believe first will stick to games based on land

Re: 2013 ACTUAL game hint!!!
 

I don't think anyone disagrees

Hence why it's a "long running joke"

Re: 2013 ACTUAL game hint!!!
 

Just in response to people that have speculated an end of stop build or whatnot, it looks like that is already outlined in the manual. It says stop build day is the 19th, but it is true that there isn't details on the withholding info.

http://frc-manual.usfirst.org/viewItem/7#4.6.1

Re: 2013 ACTUAL game hint!!!
 

About the "Game hint number 3" issue. the # sign is NOT known officially known as the symbol for "Number", it is the "pound" symbol. So, since there was no OFFICIAL game hint one and two, we can only assume that it is not labeling it as number 3, but as pound 3. Maybe the game pieces weigh 3 pounds... Maybe if there is a minibot again this year, it has to weigh less than three pounds.... :)

Re: 2013 ACTUAL game hint!!!
 

I have been thinking about how the game hint was labeled "#3"... we have all been assuming that the # symbol stands for number, when in actuality it refers to "pound". Pound 3? Maybe the game pieces weigh 3 pounds....

Re: 2013 ACTUAL game hint!!!
 

I don't think Seal will suddenly show up at kickoff to perform, but I do think there could be another meaning.

There's the animal, which people have mentioned previously.

Then there's multiple dictionary definitions, the first one being:
Will there be things that need to be held onto? Or maybe obstacles on the field?

Re: 2013 ACTUAL game hint!!!
 

I would rather have Heidi Klum show up.

Re: 2013 ACTUAL game hint!!!
 

Hey! good Idea... would be even better if it was some sort of water game... :D

Also, "Seal" as in, a device used to keep things watertight? *wink*

Re: 2013 ACTUAL game hint!!!
 

Me too.

They are in a way just like rounded Tetra's... they can be stacked in the same way. The downside is that they can only be stacked one way, but hey, that's another challange!

Could somebody please restate the current translation.