2013 KB on steriods
 

So I think I have convienced my team that we need to go with the Kitbot on steriods. From what I have seen/heard this years kit bot will have belts instead of chain drive. I have no experience with belt drive and was wondering how this will change the setup of the KB on steriods. Does anyone have any suggestions to help us with this. Any help will be appreciated.

Re: 2013 KB on steriods
 

"If your team decides to receive the 2013 KOP Drive System, you will receive an AndyMark C-Base chassis system similar to the last few years. It will again be a six wheel drive robot, with similar wheels to 2012, and with enough material to drive all six wheels. The 2013 gearbox is a ToughBox Mini with 10.71:1 reduction. The estimated final drive speed is about 10 feet per second."

The Toughbox Mini also accepts 2 CIMs so if you elect to drive each side 2 CIMS it will be very similar to the kitbot on steroids from previous years, just theoretically more efficient and lighter.

Re: 2013 KB on steriods
 

You can continue to use chain if you are more comfortable with it, sprockets are still on sale on Andymark and IFI (Vex Pro) so you can order your desired wheel and output sprockets once you've chosen your final gear ratio. The kit sprockets were geared too fast last year (i believe it was 26 tooth), we ended up purchasing 30 tooth ones for our 2012 competition robot.

Re: 2013 KB on steriods
 

This year's KitBot doesn't need much to become a kitbot on steroids, right? I think all it needs is an upgrade to 4 CIM motors and a sheet of plywood to stiffen it up. I guess some people will want plaction wheels over FIRST wheels, but I like the HiGrip FIRST wheels.

Re: 2013 KB on steriods
 

EDIT: FOund the link to the information you are referencing above.


How do you know for sure that the KOP will be the same as last year in regards to the 2013 KOP Drive System?

Was this published already?

Thanks,

Norman

Re: 2013 KB on steriods
 

The main advantage of the KBoS in my mind are the AM shifters and the extra strength from the plywood. The main unknown at this point, which could determine the possibility of running a KBoS system, is the bore of the new pulleys. The output shaft on the AM shifter is 1/2" keyed, and as much as I hope that the new pulleys will be hex, this would prevent them from going in a AM shifter. I guess we'll all find out when the Kit Bot is released tomorrow.

Re: 2013 KB on steriods
 

I think the regular kitbot isn't 6wd, but that could change this year

Re: 2013 KB on steriods
 

Our "plan" for this season is going to be a play on the "KOP on Steroids".
Again, this will all depend on the game and our strategy, but for now, this is our plan.
Depending apon what the KOP actually contains.....
We plan on using the majority of the drive componants from the KOP, but substituting a VexPro Ball shifter with 2 CIMs per side in place of the ToughBox Mini. We will also, if possible, replicate the dimentions of the KOP drive, but build them into our own custome frame. We may even do a riff on WCD style if possible. At this point though, it will all depend on the game and what the KOP actually contains. One thing is certain though, we will be using belt drive.

Re: 2013 KB on steriods
 

I'm pretty sure the KBoS uses the kit CIMple Boxes, and where did you hear about the Kitbot being released tomorrow?

Re: 2013 KB on steriods
 

I think they switched to Nano Toughboxes this year.

Re: 2013 KB on steriods
 

Where you'd expect, actually. "AndyMark Drive Base Kit...Checklist (coming 1/2/13)" [so actually today, now]. Rather odd, but there. Let's see if it happens.

Re: 2013 KB on steriods
 

The 2013 gearbox is a ToughBox Mini with 10.71:1 reduction.
From post #2

Re: 2013 KB on steriods
 

Ok, I will volunteer the collective advice on behalf of the all the FRC participants and mentors who are face-palming while reading this post. If you have genuinely "decided" or "convinced your team" what drive chassis you will use this year before even seeing the game, your team may want to fundementally rethink your approach to this activity.

Re: 2013 KB on steriods
 

I agree today "should" be the date the Checklist is available, BUT, has anyone actually seen it yet?
I checked the FIRST 2013 KOP site, but nothing is there yet. And nothing on AndyMark yet either.

Re: 2013 KB on steriods
 

Why is this so? We have had sub par results in our 10 years of doing it the way that we have. We dont have enough resources to devote time to custom things and would be better served using the provided frame. The rest of the team felt that this would be a good approach. I am reaching out to the chiefdelphi community asking for advice. Before I face palm in frustration could you please explain to me how my fundementals need to be rethought?

Re: 2013 KB on steriods
 

I believe he's referring to the fact you make design decisions before kickoff, not criticising the decision itself.

Re: 2013 KB on steriods
 

What Jeff is trying to say is you can't say you are doing a specific design for sure without even knowing what the game is. My favorite example of this is 2009, the game with regulation wheels and a low-friction playing field. If your team decided that you'd use 4" wheels and the kitbot for the 2009 season without knowing what the game was, come kickoff day you'd be disappointed to find that due to rules, restrictions, and the way the game was played, that the chassis you decided on using either isn't allowed, or isn't the best solution to the game.

He isn't saying that you shouldn't decide to use the kitbot and go custom. He's saying that you shouldn't make any decisions before you've seen the game and decided your strategy. This year we wanted a long robot (kitbot on steroids, to be exact) before seeing Rebound Rumble. After seeing it, we decided a wide robot would be advantageous for us due to more room on the bridge and a wider pickup area.

Re: 2013 KB on steriods
 

I believe his intent was to suggest not placing all your eggs in one basket quite yet.
Until we really know what the game is, it would be very prudent to NOT commit to any design specifics just yet.

As an example:
If you had decided and committed to make a high torque, multi-speed drive train before kickoff in 2009, when Lunacy was introduced, you would find you had shot yourselves in the proverbial feet.

The game can dictate different aspects of a drive-train.

Now, based on what we KNOW is included in the KOP this year, the assumptions on the needs of the drive-train for 2013 can be narrowed down quite a bit.
4" high grip wheels, ToughBox Mini transmissions with 10.7:1 reduction, belt drive up to 6 wheels, from the KOP. Based on those facts, you should be able to get fairly close to a final decision without even seeing what the game is.

But, nothing should be set in stone just yet.

Re: 2013 KB on steriods
 

I feel your line of reasoning is sound and that taking a good objective look at your performances and resources is always a good thing. It is however good practice to withhold all design decisions until the game is announced. While the kitbot is almost always a viable drivetrain, and you have probably committed to it from a resource standpoint by choosing it above the voucher, it is still good practice to take another look at it at the start of the season. Odds are probably around 99% that you will go with your kitbot and never look back, but there is always the possibility that the design is not optimal for the game in question.

Re: 2013 KB on steriods
 

I am refering to the idea of "deciding" or "convincing" your team what drivetrain you will use, or any other detail about your robot, before anything about the game is known. Making design decisions before any of the criteria are known. That is the approach I am advising rethinking. What if the KBoS is entirely inappropriate for the game? Bumps, ramps, obstacles, stairs, platforms, climbing, etc., etc. Design is the process of meeting and reacting to a challenge. Design decisions before the challenge is even known are just a shot in the dark. What is more likely to succeed, a decision based on the challenge, or one made before the challenge is even known?

Re: 2013 KB on steriods
 

Thank you for the responses. I should have added that we could still go away from the design based on if the game design is such that the kit frame may not be the best choice. But for most games we have been part of some kind of modified kit bot would work. I was just looking for advice before everyone was in deep for this years game

Re: 2013 KB on steriods
 

Where can you get a KB on steroids? or is it something you build?

Re: 2013 KB on steriods
 

Courtesy of team 1114: http://www.simbotics.org/resources/kitbot

Re: 2013 KB on steriods
 

I completely agree with your, with our past experiences of spending to much time making drives that worked sub par why not try a different approach this year if the game would allow for it. My fault was that I did not state that we would not go with it if the game had some element that made it not a poor choice for this game.

I did feel however that the comment about the face palming was a little out of line and not a good example of mentor to mentor communication and not how we should model they way we communication for students.

Re: 2013 KB on steriods
 

[quote=billbo911;1206564] .....snip....

Now, based on what we KNOW is included in the KOP this year, the assumptions on the needs of the drive-train for 2013 can be narrowed down quite a bit.
4" high grip wheels, ToughBox Mini transmissions with 10.7:1 reduction, belt drive up to 6 wheels, from the KOP. Based on those facts, you should be able to get fairly close to a final decision without even seeing what the game is.

....

Where did you get this info? How do you know what's in the KOP already?
Ann

Re: 2013 KB on steriods
 

Frank released the KOP drivebase specs quite a while ago--back in September, as I recall--via the FRC blog. (read down to the third paragraph)

As for the rest of the KOP, some of that can show up in the rookie/veteran comparison, but the rest is speculation or maybe announced on the FRC blog if it's major.

Re: 2013 KB on steriods
 

That was intended with humor but perhaps missed. My fault.

Re: 2013 KB on steriods
 

[quote=alb4h;1206768]C'mon Eric, I wanted to give the impression I was Psychic, now I just look psycho. Hehehe

Actually, thanks for linking to the actual blog post. I should have done that when I made my comments. Leaving the info hanging without supporting it is not quite as helpful as it could have been.

Re: 2013 KB on steriods
 

Wait its being released... Tomorrow?

Re: 2013 KB on steriods
 

Well, sort of. It's out now, but it's encrypted.

Re: 2013 KB on steriods
 

Looking through the rules... ::rtm:: The kitbot on steroids does not fit within the 112 inch perimiter limit.
28+38+28+38=132

The biggest bot you can make this year is 112/4, or 28x28 inches. :( I was saddened as well.

Re: 2013 KB on steriods
 

Would it be plausible to make a small bot similar to the Minibot in 2011 that just climbed up the pyramid? It might be plausible to start the game on the base of the pyramid and spend the whole time climbing up. Even taking the whole two minutes, fifteen seconds to climb, your robot could score thirty points. It would almost guarantee your robot to be picked by an alliance in regional finals if you could get your system down. Just a thought.

Re: 2013 KB on steriods
 

32" X 24", 30" X 26", 18" X 24" X 24" X 46", 35.6" circular, 37" equilateral triangle Kiwi drive .....get my drift? The max dimension of 28" is not the limit. Don't limit your thinking either.