Re: Official Ultimate Ascent Thread!
 

Actually, there's nothing in the rules as far as I can see that would penalize you for that. Now that I've said this, I'm sure it'll be fixed.

Also, I'm going to have to disagree with the optimistic human player predictions. I'm the best ultimate player in an 80 student team, and I feel like I would have a very hard time getting one in a goal in 30 seconds with an infinite number of discs, nevermind in a real game situation. Throwing a hammer almost 54ft over a 6.5ft wall accurately seems difficult, to say the least.

Re: Official Ultimate Ascent Thread!
 

Nope.

Re: Official Ultimate Ascent Thread!
 

Why would you throw Hammer? It is great for distance, but you can't do it accurately. Just practice Backhand throws with a curve to the left.

Re: Official Ultimate Ascent Thread!
 

Oh goodie, my extreme fear of hitting opposing robots as human player has returned. Just another good reason not to expect points from human players.

Re: Official Ultimate Ascent Thread!
 

I'd hate for this thread to become an ultimate discussion, but...

I can't imagine a high-release backhand over the alliance wall will make it very far. And hammers tend to be pretty accurate if you ask me. Maybe I'm just odd, but my hammers are actually more accurate than my backhands.

Re: Official Ultimate Ascent Thread!
 

I do not believe you will need to worry about hitting the opposing team robots trying to climb their pyramid so much as alliance members trying to climb.

Re: Official Ultimate Ascent Thread!
 

Hmmm? Backhands are usually the accurate method for most beginners. Even after I learned how to do forehand, I still find it more accurate/powerful (though slower). TBH, I've never seen anyone able to hammer with any real accuracy.

Re: Official Ultimate Ascent Thread!
 

I have to say that I do not envy those behind the glass this year. Hanging a robot six-seven feet in the air makes me sick just thinking about it. If my robot fell during a match I might need more medical attention than the robot.

*shudders*

Can't believe FIRST finally decided to dive into discs as the game pieces; I never thought they would ever see a competition.

Sitting back and listening to my team today, I can say that for most teams, no, climbing will not be as easy as you think. And to the rookies, may Dean have mercy on your soul. This is not a picnic.

Re: Official Ultimate Ascent Thread!
 

(emphasis mine)
I don't think a Frisbee accidentally hitting a climbing robot would count as a strategy.

Re: Official Ultimate Ascent Thread!
 

Well, there's only one way to know for sure: Q&A.

Re: Official Ultimate Ascent Thread!
 

As already pointed out by Radical PI,
"G16 - TEAMS and/or ROBOTS may not employ strategies that use DISCS to either aid or inhibit a ROBOT CLIMB.

Violation: TECHNICAL FOUL. If the DISC(S) inhibits an opponent’s CLIMB attempt, the opponent ROBOT’S ALLIANCE is awarded points for a successful Level 3 CLIMB."

Also, "G27 - ROBOTS may not contact or otherwise interfere with their opponents’ PYRAMID. Inconsequential contact will not be penalized.

Violation: TECHNICAL FOUL. If an opponent’s CLIMB is affected, RED CARD, and Each affected opponent ROBOT will be awarded points for a successful Level 3 CLIMB."

One is worse than the other. Moral of the story, leave climbing robots alone.

Re: Official Ultimate Ascent Thread!
 

How would one tell if it was intentional? The look on the thrower's face?

Re: Official Ultimate Ascent Thread!
 

Probably if they took several shots within the area of the affected robot. I don't think anyone could actually look like they were trying to hit the goal if they're 20 feet short and close to a robot instead of a goal.

Re: Official Ultimate Ascent Thread!
 

Every year there is always some aspect of the game that is very simple but gets ignored and effects scoring tremendously (like in 2008 where teams ficus ed on shooting the ball over and forgot about quickly reacquiring it) and I think grabbing up Frisbees are going to frustrate alot of teams. They are small light and slippery and just driving up to them and simply scooping them up is going to prove difficult and time consuming.

Re: Official Ultimate Ascent Thread!
 

Remember the robots you would be aiming at to stop from climbing will be right in front of the human player on your side of the field... Your goals are on the other side of the field.

I think it will be very apparent if someone is trying to knock other robots off with Frisbees...

Re: Official Ultimate Ascent Thread!
 

I'm still trying to figure out how you can know an attached 150 pound robot off the tower using a plastic disc that weighs ounces.

Re: Official Ultimate Ascent Thread!
 

You could do it by violating G14. But I'm sure everyone wants to have a 25 point penalty on their head :rolleyes:

Re: Official Ultimate Ascent Thread!
 

That just people playing psychotic defense (Leroy Jenkins types. These are the same people who would probably smack the tower at the end because they can much to the horror of both alliances). Good defense takes more than just slugging other robots. It takes just as much finesse as it does brute strength. That's how you avoid penalties.

Re: Official Ultimate Ascent Thread!
 

I've seen it before. Especially since I'm the "gunner" on my ultimate team. Basically we have a guy who throws hammers EXTREMELY well, everybody else clears out, and they chuck one to me long since I'm kinda fast. I can tell you right now he usually puts it right ON THE SPOT, and in ways that a backhand couldn't reach.

Re: Official Ultimate Ascent Thread!
 

It just takes a lot of practice to make accurate throws. Though, i'm not sure if a normal human would be able to place an accurate backhand over the human player wall.

Re: Official Ultimate Ascent Thread!
 

Didn't realize so many people on CD play Ultimate!

The hammer throw over the wall is going to be extremely difficult to make! Hammer throws tend to just go and float down making it extremely difficult to hit a vertical target. If people still want to make that throw, I think a scoober or thumber might be better because they tend to fly more horizontal.

I honestly think that Ultimate players will have more luck with a High release, OI flick which will go out, then over the wall and curve into one of the goals. If you do it right, it could roll on the backboard possibly giving you a better shot.

Still, probably not going to happen.

Re: Official Ultimate Ascent Thread!
 

If someone where to have a godlike chickenwing throw, I could see consistent scores, but I've only seen 3 people even be able to make that throw accurately, and they won't traverse very far in the field.

Re: Official Ultimate Ascent Thread!
 

That sounds like iteration in robot-speak.

Re: Official Ultimate Ascent Thread!
 

looking at this image
http://i.imgur.com/kC2md.png
it seems like there is enough space to flick it on one side of the field or backhand on the other side. But the rules say we can shoot it over the barrier. It doesn't say anything about shooting around.

Re: Official Ultimate Ascent Thread!
 

Actually, they sorta do. There is a net on each side of the field to keep stay shots from going into the stands. The field video tour said they would try to keep it 3 ft. from the guardrail but some venues may be as tight as 1.5 feet.

If you think there's enough room, Ask Q/A.

Re: Official Ultimate Ascent Thread!
 

It seems that you can only throw them over the feeder station wall.

Re: Official Ultimate Ascent Thread!
 

Does anyone know how far back the alliance wall is from the autoline or centerline? The manual says "The alliance station extends 10ft back from the alliance wall, and spans the entire width of the wall." I'm drawing a 3D model of the field and am a bit confused. Thanks!

Re: Official Ultimate Ascent Thread!
 

So I see a lot of people talking about how to throw over the wall, but has anyone else tried it? My dad and I just made out of pvc the middle goal, so that the opening is at the right height and size, took it outside, marked out 60 feet, and started throwing. I immediately went only for hammer throws, as they curve perfectly, starting out at a high release, then curve flat at whatever distance I want, which lets them go straight into the goal. It took a few tries, but I made about 5/20 throws, my first time trying it. If you have one person throwing, the other feeding them disks, I can see human players scoring at least 20-30 points, if not many more.

Re: Official Ultimate Ascent Thread!
 

Moving back to the climbing for a second
The way i understand it is the zone that you are in is based on the lowest point of your robot so could you grab onto the second bar and bring yourself up then grab onto the top bar and pull yourself up would this count since the bottom of your bot is still coming up sequentially isn't it?

Re: Official Ultimate Ascent Thread!
 

Check out this thread discussing the climbing rules.

Re: Official Ultimate Ascent Thread!
 

So what would be better 6 or 8 wheel drive for the bot itself?

Re: Official Ultimate Ascent Thread!
 

As a Ultimate Frisbee and Disc Golf fan, I am very excited for this build season. The only part that worries me is the climbing...

Re: Official Ultimate Ascent Thread!
 

What do you think?

- Sunny G.

Re: Official Ultimate Ascent Thread!
 

I say 8 so it would start the turn closer to the center of the robot

Re: Official Ultimate Ascent Thread!
 

Well, I'm more inclined to try the Hammer. I just feel like it's got the best mix of a vertical release and how it "floats" near the end. I think if you release the hammer more vertical than horizontal over your head it's got a much better chance of going in. The only reason I could see someone hitting the target with a backhand or forehand(lol) is:
a. They don't know how to throw other ways.
b. The sheer amount of people who will try.
I think the people who know how to throw an effective hammer is much less than those who can throw an effective backhand. The one thing the backhand has going for it, though, is the (if you're right handed) left to right curve (I'm assuming it wo't S-curve over 54 feet) that gives it an excellent shot at hitting any of the three targets. And I, also am very intrigued by throwing around the barrier. It was one of the first things I looked for in the rules. There's nothing, though...but if the venue has room for the 3 foot seperation, it should be possible to fit the frisbee in there so that it curves around the pyramids.

Re: Official Ultimate Ascent Thread!
 

Who says a 6 wheel can't?

Re: Official Ultimate Ascent Thread!
 

Thoughts on 2 wheel drive?

Re: Official Ultimate Ascent Thread!
 

pssh, obviously meccanum drive is best drive. ;)

Re: Official Ultimate Ascent Thread!
 

With regards to throwing around, see this post.

The only situation where I see a backhand working is if someone slices an IO from the feeder station on the low goal side of the field.

Re: Official Ultimate Ascent Thread!
 

Got it. lol I can just see some team who's human player got sick or something and the fill in is trying to rip backhands over the wall to score.

Re: Official Ultimate Ascent Thread!
 

I think a lot of the future human players in this thread are underestimating the height of that feeder wall. I'm quite adamant in the fact that hammers are your only accurate option, and even then you won't see those go in too often.

Re: Official Ultimate Ascent Thread!
 

Definitely agreed. I've been working on hammers ever since I've heard the game. Throwing a backhand over a 6.5 foot wall, the curve is going to be ridiculous.

Re: Official Ultimate Ascent Thread!
 

Here's a tour of the 2013 Field:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bp4cILBW-xM

Hope this helps! Good luck teams!

Re: Official Ultimate Ascent Thread!
 

I remember reading about the technical foul given to those that hit a robot with a frisbee while that robot is climbing, however, I can't seem to find that exact rule in the rulebook. (Even though I remember seeing it XD):ahh:

Anyone know the exact rule?

Re: Official Ultimate Ascent Thread!
 

The Rule is G16. In fact, if hitting the robot while climbing messes up the robot's attampt to climb, it gets the points for having climbed all the way to level 3.

Re: Official Ultimate Ascent Thread!
 

So if a robot is hit by a frisbee, no technical foul unless the team is using a strategy specifically using frisbees to inhibit its climb?

Re: Official Ultimate Ascent Thread!
 

That's what it sounds like, although that will probably end up being a rules clarification, part of the Q&A or left up to refs' discretion to decide what is "strategic" or not.

Re: Official Ultimate Ascent Thread!
 

This is going to be a hard one. My team is still unsure of exactly what to do. :ahh:

We have prototypes for the shooter, but don't know how to:
A. Pick up discs
B. Climb

This is going to be an interesting one. Robots climbing to level 3 will need a strong chassis to avoid damage if they fall while climbing. The grimaces and utterances of discomfort will be even more pronounced this year than last year.

When a robot tips or falls, everyone feels it. ::ouch::

Re: Official Ultimate Ascent Thread!
 

I feel like picking up game pieces this year is different from yeares past. In 2009, 2011, and last year, picking up from the ground was CRUCIAL. But why? Because of the sheer amount of game pieces on the floor. This year I just don't see a multitude of pieces on the floor until the final minute or so.

Re: Official Ultimate Ascent Thread!
 

Dean Kamen would be proud. :D

Re: Official Ultimate Ascent Thread!
 

Yeah, this year might not be at all like Logomotion....
*flashback*
Game pieces... game pieces everywhere!

Anyways, the only thing I'm disappointed by is the similarity between the last three games. All three had three tiers of scoring (though this year we get one more, but only six game pieces to score in it); all three had an "endgame" that seems like it could swing a match, and all three had human players throwing game pieces into play, as well as a feeder station. Oh well, it should still be a great year!

Re: Official Ultimate Ascent Thread!
 

Although the numbers have changed between tiers, that pretty much describes every FIRST game ever (at least since the advent of alliances). An "endgame" worth a potential match-swinging amount of points has been in every game since 2001, human players have entered game pieces onto the field in every year other than 2008, and most years have had some sort of tiered scoring method. That's like saying all FIRST games are similar because they use "game pieces".

After pondering over this game for a few days, this seems like the most difficult end game challenge in a long time. I remember back in 2007 thinking "how are we going to lift 2 other robots?". That seems easy in comparison.

Re: Official Ultimate Ascent Thread!
 

Two wheel drive has become my team's final design. I think it will work out well for us providing we get our climber designed well.

Re: Official Ultimate Ascent Thread!
 

I mean, Breakaway seemed different. (Low scoring, with only two goals, if I remember correctly.) Lunacy was also unique. (With the low traction, and a single goal (although there were three tiers of game pieces) and the human-player reliant endgame.) I don't remember anything from before Lunacy.
I remember Logomotion's kickoff, and I though the game was very different.
I remember Rebound Rumble's kickoff, and I though that it had a similar feel to Logomotion.
This year, although the endgame seems tough, I believe that a large number of teams will be able to do it, so it will seem similar to last year's game.

Re: Official Ultimate Ascent Thread!
 

I think there's an awful lot of teams severely underestimating the difficulty of a 30pt climb. 10pt climbs are easy. 30pt climbs are HARD.

That being said, I think you're going to see several of the top teams with climbers that can do triple climbs in a ridiculously short period of time.

Re: Official Ultimate Ascent Thread!
 

Amazing! i think this years game will probably be the most challenging one yet!:ahh:

Re: Official Ultimate Ascent Thread!
 

I could not agree more. The main thing will be finding a great balance between a very sucsessful shooter and a very sucsessful climber. The few that can should sweep the regionals do to the time it takes to accomplish both in 6 weeks.

Re: Official Ultimate Ascent Thread!
 

Could you clarify? Breakway was before Logomotion, perhaps you meant Lunacy?

Re: Official Ultimate Ascent Thread!
 

I think that the biggest difference between teams will be the ability to do 20+ climbs.

Re: Official Ultimate Ascent Thread!
 

This is true.

Gravity is a cruel mistress. 100-130 pounds (gotta include the battery) falling from 12 inches is easily enough to do some serious damage to aluminum frames (or any frames, really) let alone 45, 55, 65 inches.

I can only imagine the nightmare of having a West Coast Drivetrain fall and shear off a wheel or two, bend the axles and potentially even damage the chassis itself.

A misstep right before finals (or if it's bad enough, any time before then) could spell the end of your competetiveness.

Re: Official Ultimate Ascent Thread!
 

most definitely. Actually, our team calculated that the robot would be closer to 140. 10 lbs for bumpers, 10 for battery. Also, 10 points really isn't THAT much. 20 may be enough to swing a match.

Re: Official Ultimate Ascent Thread!
 

What makes everyone so sure that the 120# limit is going to be universally reached? The smaller robots this year may only reach 100 or even 90# and still have enough functionality to be competitive. Add to that any emphasis on climbing will encourage serious weight trimming all around. I refer to weights without bumper battery additions. Not that a fall wouldn't be a serious event in the life of any of these machines.

Re: Official Ultimate Ascent Thread!
 

I'd love to see how that works out.

Re: Official Ultimate Ascent Thread!
 

Oops, for the sentence comparing Logomotion and Breakaway, I meant to type Rebound Rumble. My bad.

Re: Official Ultimate Ascent Thread!
 

hmm, how about a 3 wheel drive? it seems to be indicated by the new bumper and size rules, and it would probably help with strafing while aiming.

Re: Official Ultimate Ascent Thread!
 

this year i think that many teams are focusing on shooting and a basic 10 pt climb. What i'm wondering is how many teams will be able to shoot accurately at the goal on top of the pyramid?