Hanging rules
 

I'd like to open the discussion about the hanging rules.

My question is: If you are to attach to the 30" bar in such a way that your robot curls up above the horizontal plain to be completely in the Level 2 (20 points) but a small part of the "claw" attached to the 30" bar is thus below the horizontal plain; does this count as 20 points?

I guess the question becomes, how lenient are the rules, and where does this horizontal plain get extended from? The bottom of the metal tube? The top? The middle?

Re: Hanging rules
 

Check out the diagram that defines where the planes are (3.2.4.2). The planes are just above the bars, so the 30" bar is in Level 1, the 60" bar is in Level 2, and the 90" bar is in Level 3.

Re: Hanging rules
 

If your off the ground your considered level 1, 10 points.

If all of your robot completely above the the first bar, your in level 2 zone, for 20 points.

If all of your robot is completely above the second level your in level 3 zone, for 30 points.

If any of your robot is below the plane is question it seems your be in a lower zone from the rule book, so I believe you'll have to attach to at least the 90 inch bar to be in zone 3. If you are attached to the second bar and curl over, your attachment mechanism will likely be considered in zone 2 therefore your robot.

Re: Hanging rules
 

Quote:

3.2.4.2 CLIMB Points Points are awarded for the highest Level achieved for every ALLIANCE ROBOT that CLIMBS its PYRAMID. The Level to which a ROBOT has CLIMBED is determined by the lowest point of the ROBOT (in relation to the FIELD).

As taken from Secton 3 - The Game

If your claw is still below the level, then the lowest part of your robot is the bottom of that claw. I think, as evidenced of the 210 End Game, it will be a straight above the plane or below the plane.

Re: Climbing Rules
 

Imagine a robot that placed a pair of hooks over the bar @ 30", while the robot is on the ground.

Is the robot in zones 0,1, and 2 and therefore executing an illegal climb?

If the same robot clamps onto the 30" bar but the clamps do not protrude above the crest of the bar is it then only in zones 1 and 2? That would seem to be the case.

Seems like some real constraints on climbing horizontally if #1 is deemed to be illegal.

Re: Climbing Rules
 

Sounds like a question for Q&A to me, since I don't believe this is the intent. If it IS the intent, then it seems like we're really only intended to climb the corners of the pyramid.

Climbing In 3 Sections
 

We have come to a stumble with the rule listed in section 3.2.4.2-B. It states that the robot can not be in any more than 2 sections at once. Assuming your robot is on the ground you are in zone 0, if you are going for the cross-bar above in zone 1 you will of course be in zone 1, and once you are above the post you may be in zone 3. The reason this is unknown is due to the small area above the cross-bar that remains to be in the zone, this length above the bar is not described in the rules making us question the legality of a mechanism that grabs or latches to one of these bars because you may cross the level with this system.

Re: Climbing In 3 Sections
 

Maybe we should make like a robot arm to climb

Re: Climbing Rules
 

I agree, we are definitely getting into QA territory here.

Re: Climbing In 3 Sections
 

I suspect some of the first Q&A questions will be related to the no more than 2 sections climbing rule, and how it interacts with the floor.

My suspicion is that we'll see a Team Update that allows you to be in Layer 0, 1, AND 2, but afterward only 1 and 2 or 2 and 3.

Re: Climbing In 3 Sections
 

The robot cannot be IN CONTACT with more than two levels. It can be above a rung as long as it's not touching it.

Climbing the Pyramid
 

Regarding the pyramid

Does this mean that you cannot hook onto the 2nd bar, then climb up and touch the 1st bar on the way? You have to hook up to the 1st, then 2nd, and finally 3rd bar while only touching the next level?

Climbing the PYRAMID is the big deal this year

"how" we're going to climb the PYRAMID?

Re: Climbing Rules
 

Always amuses me how fast a group of about 3000 teams can poke a hole in the game design to the point of needing a Q&A answer within a couple hours of kickoff every year.

Re: Climbing Rules
 

Seems like a fairly obvious strategy - hard to specify how you make it legal w/out opening up a lot of other issues. Related to it, if a part of the robot protrudes over into a third zone while hooking on - that would seem to make the entire climb illegal.

Other question would be do the level 1,2,3 plane protrude outside the pyramid as well? I'd assume so.

Also, would it mean that robots can be taller than 30"? Sure they need to be smaller than 30" to go under the pyramid, but if a robot were 40" tall and climbin outside, it would cross planes 0,1,2 at the same time, or planes 1,2 and 3 (i.e. a 35" high robot would cross the top two inches of plane 1, 30 inches on plane 2 and the bottom 3" of plane 3 at one point in it's lift.

It would seem you would have to be allowed in 3 planes at once as long as they are contiguous, or am I missing something? It's especially the case w/ a 54" robot or an 84" robot.

Maybe I'm just over analyzing this :-)

Re: Climbing the Pyramid
 

It appears so. You have to climb one step at a time. Considering that the floor is level 0, that means you must climb onto level 1 and be completely off the ground before heading into level 2, and then completely out of level 1 before you can enter level 3.

Re: Climbing Rules
 

A close rereading of the rules makes me believe this is OK:

A ROBOT Has Climbed the Pyramid if it contacts the pyramid in:
A: Sequential Order (levels 0,1,2,3)) during ascent
B: no more that 2 levels simultaneously

So even to a bot is hooking around the horizontal bar, it's only contacting the zone the bar is in, even if it it extends into the upper plane.

Re: Climbing Rules
 

Thanks for all the clarification. I got "NOT AVAILABLE" on the Q&A site.

What about grabbing the corner post above the 30" bar? I think our robot would be in 0, 1, and 2 (i.e. on the ground, clearly in zone 1, and claw in zone 2).

WOuld this be illegal?

When Can We Start Climbing
 

When can we start climbing the pyrimid? Is there a set time that we are suppose to climb or at any point during the round can we start our ascent?


thanks

team 3662

Re: When Can We Start Climbing
 

There are no restrictions on when you can begin climbing the pyramid.

Re: When Can We Start Climbing
 

Agreed, there are no restrictions on contacting your own pyramid.

Climbing Time
 

Does anyone know when you can start climbing the pyramid during the match?

Re: Climbing Time
 

I also am curious about this. Can we climb at any time, or just during the endgame?

Clarification of tower zones
 

My team is having some trouble understanding how climbing the tower works with regards to zones :confused: . could someone please clarify for us? :)

Re: Clarification of tower zones
 

The zones are explained in section 3.2.4.2 such that level 0 is on the ground, level 1 is above the ground and below the first bar, level 2 is between the first and second bars, and level 3 is above the second bar. The lowest point on your robot as it is hanging is what will be used to determine the level -- and parts A and B of 3.2.4.2 specify what validates a "CLIMB."

The paragraph at the end means that you cannot skip up bars. So you can climb from the first bar to second bar and hang in level 1 for 10 points, but if you go from the ground to the second bar still in level 1 zone you get no points (invalidated climb) because you didn't climb in sequential order.

Does that help?

Re: Clarification of tower zones
 

thank you very much!

Re: Clarification of tower zones
 

Also note that the levels include the width of the bar above them, shown in the field tour video and figure 3-4 in section 3.1.5.2 of the game manual.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...tMJA4g#t=36 s

Re: Climbing Rules
 

They commonly don't open the site for a couple days, so as to avoid posting of stupid questions that can be answered with a second read of the manual. Not that this thread is stupid - I'm sure there will be plenty of clarifications on the scoring zones, the ladder 0-1-2-3 rule, etc.

Problems. You've got 2 possibilities here:
1. Touching zone 0 (floor) and zone 2 (corner bar above the 30" bar) but not touching zone 1 - illegal because you skipped a zone.
2. Touching all 3 (0, 1 and 2) - illegal because you can only touch 2 zones at a time.

Re: Climbing Rules
 

Here's my interpretation of the rule, which states:

The key point is contacting the pyramid. If you grab onto the bottom rung, you are touching level 0 (the floor) and the pyramid in level 1. However, you are not touching the pyramid in level 2, and so it is okay.

Re: Climbing Rules
 

Several threads of similar subject merged into one.

Re: Climbing Rules
 

This is the key here. The way the rules are written it explicitly mentions "contacts", which means that the robot must physically touch the pyramid within that level to be considered in it (I don't see how projecting into the plane can be considered contacting).

This does make climbing the corners of the pyramid a more hazardous proposal, since it's fairly easy to contact a tiny portion of the pyramid just barely in level 2 while still contacting level 0 at the corners.

Re: Climbing Rules
 

how many robots can the pyramid hold at its max tolerance:confused:

Re: Climbing Rules
 

Has anybody seen anything in the rules about climbing the corner bars as opposed to the horizontal bars?

Re: Climbing Rules
 

No prohibition, but the kickoff did direct you to consider the way the horizontal bars and the corners intersect.

Re: Climbing Rules
 

I would lend emphasis to the "contact" part of 3.2.4.2 rather than being in the zones themselves. As JHammond mentioned, any robot taller than 30" would otherwise immediately violate the rule (touching level 0, in zone 1 and zone 2). My interpretation is that the only thing being restricted is CONTACT with the pyramid, not presence in a zone.

Another thing to consider the legality of would be the scenario of lifting an alliance robot. Per the rules, your robot could have climbed in the traditional sense (whatever that may be), be in Level 3, and then lift an alliance mate (say by hooking on some point on their robot) by [G33] through to Level 2. This alliance robot would have contacted the pyramid in sequential order (only Level 0) and satisfies restraint B.

Re: Climbing the Pyramid
 

This could mean that the robot can't be in contact with more than 2 zones of the pyramid at the end of the match, couldnt it?

Re: Climbing Rules
 

We have been discussing this clause in section 3.2.4.2:

We can't agree on whether this means that a robot score points by climbing early and descending.

That is are points only awarded for robots that are in position when the game time expires.

Our early interpretation is that the points will be awarded no matter when the climb happens but this is certainly a point for the official Q&A.

Al G.

Re: Climbing Rules
 

My interpretation is:

The Pyramid is described in section 2.2.5, and is composed of the steel tubing (et al), and the 4 steel bases (24 inch square). Except for the steel plates, the Pyramid does not include the floor under the pyramid.

Separately, there are zones designated as levels (0 through 3). Parts of the Pyramid are in each Zone. But, the Zones are not the Pyramid.

Section 3.1.5.2. CLIMB Points. The Robot has climbed the Pyramid if it contacts the pyramid in no more than two levels simultaneously.

There is no rule that restricts how many zones your bot can simultaneously occupy. Only how many points of contact you can have with the Pyramid.

Only the steel plates of the Pyramid are in level 0.

The first bar is in level 1.

The second bar is in level 2.

So, it is possible to hook onto the 2nd bar, and not violate the rule, if you are not touching a steel plate. This makes it easy to clear the floor (level 0) using the 2nd bar.

Note: make sure you comply with the sequential order rule. Contact the pyramid in level 1 before you contact the 2nd bar. Nothing I see requires you to do anything with the 1st bar. Note 2: The sequential rule does reference level 0, so maybe make sure to touch the steel plate (only part of the pyramid in level 0) before you touch anything else.

You can reach above the 2nd bar, into level 3, as long as you do not touch any part of the Pyramid in Level 3 (the 2nd bar is fully in level 2).

In order to touch the 3rd bar, or any vertical piece above the 2nd bar, you cannot be touching any part of the Pyramid at or below the 1st bar, or you would violate the rule (this presumes you are touching the 2nd bar).

In summary, being "in a zone" does not cause problems. Touching the pyramid in more than 2 zones at a time, does cause problems.

Getting off level 0 is not that difficult (first 10 points). The difficult part is clearing the first bar while only holding onto the 2nd bar (second 10 points) and not touching any part of the pyramid at or below the 1st bar (hanging below, but not touching is ok). Once you have reached that point, then you can touch the 3rd bar, and then clear level 2 (third 10 points).

Note: This is a strict reading of the rules. Future clarifications may affect the interpretation. Such as, a clarification that the floor under the Pyramid is considered part of the pyramid for "contact" purposes, and the floor is considered in level 0. That would mean you have to clear the floor before you can touch the 2nd bar.

Re: Climbing the Pyramid
 

I think this is what really needs the clarification. I believe you will still have to obey that rule while climbing after the clarification, but right now, I don't think it's 100% clear. That would make it way easier to climb.

Re: Climbing Rules
 

What is your interpretation of G4 ?
"3.2.1.4 G04
ROBOTS may only be removed from a PYRAMID under the following conditions:
A. by the TEAM,
B. unpowered,
C. and under the supervision of a FIRST Technical Advisor (FTA), FTA Assistant, Referee, or Field Supervisor.

Additionally, if any part of the ROBOT is in Level 3, TEAMS are required to attach a FIRST supplied belay line, detailed
in Section 2.2.6, to their ROBOT to spot a ROBOT while the TEAM removes it from the PYRAMID."

Re: Climbing Rules
 

It certainly references level 0

Re: Climbing In 3 Sections
 

We have the same conundrum with climbing through level 2. If the robot grips the bar at the top of level 2, presumably part of the gripper is over top of the bar and, therefore, in Level 3. If at the same time the robot still has some attachment to the bar at the top of Level 1, the robot would be in three levels at once. I sincerely hope this is not the intent of the rules.

Re: Climbing In 3 Sections
 

Emphasis mine.

This rule reads a little funny at first, but when you take it for exactly what it says, I think it becomes clear. There is nothing about how many zones the robot can occupy, but how many different zones the robot may contact. This is why the planes for the zones are above the horizontal members.

Let's say you are going to score on the second level (20 points). Your first step, following G22, would be to move from level 0 (the ground) to level 1(fully supported by the section of the pyramid in zone 1). You are now free to move on from the section of the pyramid in zone 1 to the section in zone 2.

I hope this is a helpful explanation.

Re: Climbing In 3 Sections
 

So...does this make scaling corners as difficult as I think it does?

Re: Climbing In 3 Sections
 

Only as difficult as you design it to be.

Re: Climbing In 3 Sections
 

I dunno, it seems pretty straightforward to me.. The TEAM removes the robot (not another team or FRC volunteers/staff)
The power must be off
The FTA, FTAA, Ref or FS must be watching

And if you are at level 3, wait for FRC folks to direct you with the Belay thingie.
Yes, it does. It is clear to me that the AIR around and within the pyramid is NOT the pyramid. Contacting the top of the first bar is NOT touching any of the second zone of the pyramid. Sure, it touches AIR in the second zone (by the thickness of your hook), but not the pyramid.

I would still like to see a Q&A submission asking if a robot grappling the lowest (30") horizontal bar with a hook is occupying 2 zones (legal) or 3 zones (illegal, because of the slight projection of the hook into Zone 2, plus contact with the floor (zone 0) and the first horizontal bar (zone 1).

Re: Climbing In 3 Sections
 

Sorry, I meant legally. If the issue is contacting pipes within each zone (agreed), is it legal* for a robot to grasp the corner joint of the 30" pipe and of the 60" pipe? (Essentially analogous to your original explanation, which I agree with, but brought next to objects that run the full heights of the zones, obfuscating "occupy".) This is not to say that climbing slanted pipes would be harder--a la 2010 vertical climbers--but rather to investigate the legal issues surrounding working at corner joints.


*Perhaps I should say "wise" rather than "legal". Anyone close enough to brush against the wrong side of a slanted pipe seems to be in a precarious position technical position--and making it very tough on the refs! I'd loathe to see those DS lights turn yellow...


EDIT: or, you know, what Don said. [part 2]
@Don for part 1: I think he's referring back to this concept of climbing early and then coming down to score more.

Re: Climbing In 3 Sections
 

I think wise is the word you are looking for. There is not much room to grab onto a corner. It would probably be a judgement call by the referee observing the robot.

Pyramid Rule Question
 

Hello to all FRC participants,
I have read throught the rules and have a question that the rules dont refer to.
Can you climb up the pyramid or begin the climb before the last 30 seconds of the match?
This question is' in my opinion very important to understanding the flow of the game and can bring new strategies to the table.

I thank you all in advance :D

Team #2230 ::safety::

Re: Pyramid Rule Question
 

You haven't found anything in the rules that says you can't. The rules have nothing in them about when you're allowed to start climbing. Ergo, you can start climbing whenever you like. The GDC is usually very specific and clear when they want to limit activities to some smaller portion of the match.

Re: Climbing Rules
 

The top paragraph of page 6 (the end of section 3.2.4.2) has a pretty clear example:
This says your robot may extend into the Levels whenever it wants (subject the the 84" rule (G22). Your robot may only touch Level 0 and Level 1 (the ground and the lowest bars) then Level 1 and Level 2, etc. Your robot must touch Levels in sequential order per 3.2.4.2.A.

Re: Pyramid Rule Question
 

Except a revision probably. That or you have 2 minutes to get it right

Re: Pyramid Rule Question
 

We've been discussing the same question and initially concluded that there was no restriction in the written rules about when to start the climb. However, in the game video this might remain uncertain as it says

"near the end of the match" the human players can start throwing their discs.

In the next statement, it says, "at the same time, robots drive to their pyramids and start to climb"...

These comments are at about 2:20 into the game animation video.

If you look through the rules book, specifically 3.3.37 G35-B, for when human players can start to throw discs onto the filed:
"during the last thirty (30) seconds of TELEOP"

If the 'at the same time' statement in the game animation video is firmly linked to when human players can start to throw discs, this suggests the climb can only start in the last 30 seconds of TELEOP.

Not completely sure of this interpretation but for initial planning purposes it might be prudent to plan on climbing during the last 30s. But there's no specific rule we've found so far that addresses when the climb starts other than the linkage through the game animation video.

Dave R
Mentor - Team 2165

Re: Climbing Rules
 

I am trying to figure out if you can still get the 30 points if you pull your robot partially above he level 3 zone, for example, if the robot had arms pulling it up so that the bottom of the robot was above the 2nd bar, and the top of the robot extended above to even with the pyramid target

Re: Climbing Rules
 

Does everyone believe that the rule prohibits a robot from climbing the pyramid during the match and then say scores in the pyramid goal and then lower itself to retrieve frisbees and then repeats the process?

Re: Climbing Rules
 

The disks remain in the goal, there's a basket.

Re: Climbing Rules
 

Im not asking about the scoring part.

Re: Climbing Rules
 

There is nothing in the rules that i have spotted saying you cannot climb during the match as long as it is done in the proper way. One thing that i would look at though is the fact that there are only 6 Frisbees allowed to be put in the top goal

Re: Climbing Rules
 

If there's no disks to retrieve then there's no reason to go back down. Unless you were talking about going back to get the other two? In that case, rule G4 makes that a little iffy since it says that the robot may only be removed by the team, unpowered and under FTA supervision. So you'd then have to determine if they mean that removing the robot is just at the end or any time when the robot is coming off the pyramid, in which case coming back down under robot power would be illegal.

Re: Climbing Rules
 

Actually this part of rule 3.1.5.2 pretty much says you can drop back down and give the climb another go to get the right climb points you want: If a CLIMB is considered unacceptable (e.g. a ROBOT has touched non-adjacent Levels or more than two (2) Levels at a time), a Referee will indicate a rejected CLIMB by turning the offending ROBOT’S PLAYER STATION LED strings yellow. The ROBOT will be ineligible for CLIMB points unless and until it begins a new CLIMB from the floor, Level 0.

Re: Climbing Rules
 

Oh yep, almost forgot about that, thanks for clarifying.

Re: Climbing Rules
 

If your robot is above the third bar, would it still be considered in zone 3?

Re: Climbing Rules
 

If you are partially above level 3, and the lowest point of the robot is above level 2,the highest level you achieved would be level 3.

Re: Pyramid Rule Question
 

The video is not official; the rules and Q&A are. If the rules don't say there is a time limit for climbing, then there isn't one.

climbing question
 

when the robot can start climbing on the pyramid?

Re: climbing question
 

As soon as the auto period is over you are allowed to start climbing.

Re: climbing question
 

You Can Climb During Teleop But To Keep The Points You Need To Stay There Until The Match Ends!

Re: Climbing In 3 Sections
 

I think the welds at the corners are what make corner-scaling difficult.


I keep thinking of climbing a ladder. A normal person would put a foot on one rung, a hand on the next, before starting the climb-this would not be a legal climb (three levels are contacted).
Taking it a step further - let's say the ladderclimber is standing on the first rung and tries to ascend to the second. This person is not allowed to touch the third rung for stability - (s)he must fully release from the first rung before contacting the second.
This with the understanding that each level begins with the horizontal plane tangential to the top of the rung - I can't think of how to consistently and explicitly contact a round horizontal member at only one point, and that one point exactly at the vertical top. But, this game is only 27 hours old, clarity may come.
The 1/9 opening time for Q&A feels like a lifetime away. Especially since the response time is historically such a wild card.

Re: climbing question
 

I don't see a rule forbidding climbing in autonomous. Am I missing something?

Whether it's a good strategy is, of course, another problem.

Re: Climbing In 3 Sections
 

Not the first rung, just the ground.
The first and second rung are consecutive levels.

Re: Climbing In 3 Sections
 

Right, but if Level 0 is considered a level, then there's a problem.

Re: Climbing In 3 Sections
 

I think the bot can "ride" the corner pole, including the "bumps" at the junctions. The only plan I can think of to climb and not violate the 2 bar rule, is to cimb up the inside (which only has enough room for 1 bot), or climb up one of the corners.

Climbing up an outside side has the problem of: Eventually you can only hang on one bar as you grab the next higher one. When you are hanging, the center of mass will cause 1/2 your robot to hang inside the pyramid. Not a deal killer, but it takes additional motor power to swing the bot back to the outside of the pyramid to clear the lower bar.

For corner climbing, the bot grabs onto the horizontal pole on each side of the corner, and the thrid point of contact is the verticle pole. The verticle pole keeps the bot from swinging under the pyramid.

Re: climbing question
 

I have been searching for the section or rule that states you need to be on the pyramid at the end of the match to score the points. So far this is what I have found.

"3.1.5.2 CLIMB Points
Points are awarded for the highest Level achieved for every ALLIANCE ROBOT that CLIMBS its PYRAMID. The Level to which a ROBOT has CLIMBED is determined by the lowest point of the ROBOT (in relation to the FIELD). CLIMB
point values and Levels are defined in Figure 3-4.

A ROBOT has CLIMBED its PYRAMID if it contacts the PYRAMID in
A. sequential order (Level 0, 1, 2, 3) during ascent and
B. no more than two (2) Levels simultaneously.

If a CLIMB is considered unacceptable (e.g. a ROBOT has touched non-adjacent Levels or more than two (2) Levels at a time), a Referee will indicate a rejected CLIMB by turning the offending ROBOT’S PLAYER STATION LED strings yellow. The ROBOT will be ineligible for CLIMB points unless and until it begins a new CLIMB from the floor, Level 0.

3.2.1.4 G04
ROBOTS may only be removed from a PYRAMID under the following conditions:
A. by the TEAM,
B. unpowered,
C. and under the supervision of a FIRST Technical Advisor (FTA), FTA Assistant, Referee, or Field Supervisor."


This seem to imply that once a robot has climbed the pyramid correctly, the alliance will be awarded points determined by how high it has climbed. The is no mention of staying on the pyramid until the end of the match.

Rule G4 might apply since the robot would be removed from the pyramid in a manner inconsistent with G4, but since that rule is under the safety section of the rules, it is possible it only applies after the match is over. A violation of G4 results in a Yellow card but does not mention loss of points

Thoughts ?

Re: climbing question
 

I believe this would be legal since, as you said, there is nothing saying you must remain in position to recieve points. Coming back down should be legal because the rule about what qualifies as an acceptable climb states that if a climb is ruled unacceptable, the robot will have to come down and restart the climb. I expect this will most likely be part of a rules clarification though.

Re: climbing question
 

Even that I'm doubting, since the rules pretty clearly say you can go all the way back down if your climb is ruled invalid:

Re: Climbing Rules
 

I think that makes it pretty clear that the official score is based on the position of the robot(s) (and Frisbees) 5 seconds after the end of the match

Re: Climbing Rules
 

I agree, and assume they'll clarify early on.

Re: Climbing Rules
 

So I have a thought concerning the legality of grabbing the second bar while on the ground.

You'll note that the rules specify:
However the Pyramid is defined as
The carpet beneath the period is not a part of the steel structure, and therefore not a part of the defined pyramid. So, as long as you were to contact the Level 1 structure first, it could be legal to grab on to the Level 2 structure, while being in contact with the carpet, as you are not contacting the pyramid itself in Level 0.

That may not be intent of the rules, but the wording is very strange. The pyramid is defined as just the steel structure, and doesn't mention including the carpet beneath. And given that Figure 3-4 seems to show Level 0 as being below the actual structure of the pyramid, is it even possible to contact the pyramid in Level 0? Perhaps a rewording of 3.1.5.2 is necessary?

Re: Climbing Rules
 

It's been noted. I'm sure it will be clarified quickly in the Q&A or team updates!

Re: Climbing Rules
 

I am unable to find the blog post where Frank discusses it, but this sounds like "lawyering". The intent, I believe, is for the robot to be supported only by the individual level before moving on to the next level.

Of course, a Q&A submission and team updates will say for sure what the ruling on this is.

Re: Climbing Rules
 

No disagreement from me, I imagine the you are correct about the intent and this is definitely a lawyering of the rules. Simply trying to point out a possible oversight so that it can be addressed properly.

Re: Climbing Rules
 

I think the manual makes it pretty clear that the floor is Level 0. Thus, you have to be completely supported by Bar 1 to touch Bar 2 and have it be part of a legal climb.

Re: Climbing Rules
 

It would be great if the GDC puts out an update that includes diagrams of 'robots' climbing and showing legal and illegal climbing intermediate positions-- especially in relation to the floor and/or leg floor plates. Also examples that involve touching the legs of the pyramid. Sort of like they do for Ok/Not Ok bumper configurations.

Re: Climbing Rules
 

The simple way is the best may be Pnaumatics

Re: Climbing Rules
 

It isn't quite so clear about the floor being part of the pyramid, though. This is one spot where I expect an update to the rules.

Re: Climbing Rules
 

But for the purpose of climbing, the floor counts as a level. It doesn't matter whether or not it's part of the pyramid for the purposes of climbing.

Re: Climbing Rules
 

(to give Alan some credit, this was just clarified in the rules update today :) )

Re: Climbing Rules
 

Yes Alan successfully predicted the update!!!
:0)

Before the update it was not clear that floor contact made any difference in climbing.

Re: Climbing Rules
 

Well, the rule change clarified whether you can touch the floor and bar 2 at the same time - Not!

Another scenario:

The bar is at the top of a level. When you grab on the bar, part of your apparatus is above the bar, and in the higher level. Since it is not touching the pyramid above the bar, that is not a problem.

Issue:

What if you are grabbing at the corner? Or, if you want to grab the corner? Then, you will come into contact with a portion of the vertical pole that is above the horizontal bar.

Question:

Is there a portion of the vertical pole, immediately above the bar, that can considered part of the lower zone if another portion of the robot it touching the pyramid in the lower zone?

If you are below the bar, then you want to be able to grab the corner and climb up, and incidentally be contacting the pyramid in the higher zone. Similarly, you could be a fraction of an inch above the lower bar, be contacting the vertical bar a fraction of an inch above the corner, grabbing onto the next higher bar, and should be considered as touching the higher zone (not touching any other part of the pyramid in the lower zone).

It would be helpful to allow the 5 inches (or whatever nominal amount) of the vertical pole above a corner to be considered part of the lower zone if the robot is touching any other part of the pyramid in the lower zone. Or, for purposes of the 2 zone rule, the 5 inches of the vertical pole immediately above a corner is considered to be in whichever zone (actual zone, or immediately lower zone) that is most advantageous for the robot.

Re: Climbing Rules
 

I'm not sure what you mean. The second bar is between Levels 2 and 3--certainly that's well out of the realm of "sequential" with zero regardless of what fraction of an inch they could ever allow in tolerance...

Re: Climbing Rules
 

Although this would be helpful when it comes to simplifying designs, it seems as if the intent, based upon Figure 3-4 of the manual, is that any part of the pyramid located above the horizontal bars making up the corners is to be designated as the next level. If you want to grab onto the corners for climbing, you're going to need to be careful to avoid the vertical pole. That's part of the design challenge.

Re: Climbing Rules
 

There's a lot of word substitution in this thread. If you guys would read the rules, and stop substituting translations in place of the literal words, the rules are quite clear.

• The rules don't invalidate a climb if a robot isn't supported by a level on the way up (i.e. if a 'robot' flew to the top while sequentially touching the horizontal rungs on the way, it'd be a valid climb)
• The gusset plate is a perfectly valid thing to touch on the way up
• The 0.25" above the gusset plate on the angled bar is a perfectly valid place to touch on the way up (good luck proving to the refs that your bot ONLY went that high)
• The angled bar above the horizontal rungs are the next zone up, no matter how the rules are interpretted.
• -Literal- The pyramid is a steel structure. Climbing is defined as robot contact with the pyramid. Zones are defined by planar dimensions.
  -Derived- Steel isn't made of air. Zones are not made up of air.
  -Conclusion- A robot doesn't contact a zone.

The laws of physics pretty much derive everything else we need to know. Just like inserting one's own wishes into the laws of physics leads to epic fail, replacing rule wordings leads to unhappy FRC teams.

Re: Climbing Rules
 

Actually, CLIMBING is considered "contact[ing] the PYRAMID and/or the floor (Level 0)" ...which makes me wonder what led you to believe that a robot flying up needs to touch the horizontal rungs or anything else on the pyramid, provided it takes off from the floor*? In fact, even if the floor didn't count, why would you need to touch it beyond Level 1?

*Not doing so would be a violation of G05-C anyway.

EDIT: This actually does have relevance to a viable CLIMBING strategy (not just flying).

Re: Climbing Rules
 

The Q&A has clarified that sequential contact of each zone is necessary for a climb to be valid.

Re: Climbing Rules
 

The laws of physics, 5 seconds after the end of the match. Oh, and that pesky line that's right underneath your quoted line in the rules, about sequential contact.

Re: Climbing Rules
 

1. That's why I edited it to clarify I wasn't talking about flying. (Suspension, for example, though I guess legally* floating could work)
2. Yes, and I have contacted the floor, which means I am considered to have climbed, no?

A ROBOT has CLIMBED its PYRAMID if it contacts the PYRAMID and/or the floor (Level 0) in

A. sequential order (Level 0, 1, 2, 3) during ascent and
B. no more than two (2) Levels simultaneously.

@pfreivald: ah, would you mind quoting this? I can't identify find which you're referring to: quick Q&A link.

I only see 3 answered so far, and the only climbing contact one (Q6) is "Can the robot go from the floor to level 2 while climbing the pyramid or does it have to climb to level 1 first and then level 2?", which is not on point and just restates the rule above.



*Legally by the laws of FIRST of course, the laws of physics are much more picky on that subject. But suspension, nonetheless.

Re: Climbing Rules
 

The answer to Q6 tells us that one must contact the PYRAMID and/or the floor in sequential order, and that skipping a level would not meet the requirement. 0, 3 is not sequential order.

Re: Climbing Rules
 

but could you say perhaps have a robot, on the floor, touch the first rung (level 1) then reach to level level 2 (second rung) and pull itself up?

That is, go from 0, to 1, to 2, but, let go of 1 before letting go of 0, as to only be in contact with 2 zones at a time?

it seems to me this satisfies, sequential order, and only touching two at a time

the rules do not demand using zone 1 to propel youreself to zone 2. you could do it from 0, as long as you contact zone 1, and let go of it before contacting zone 2.

Re: Climbing Rules
 

by my interpretation of the rules JesseK is right.

A robot could fly up to the 3rd zone, as long as it kisses each level...

Re: Climbing Rules
 

I don't think that this interpretation would be true. If you contact level 0 and 1, then let go of level 1, your climb has been reset. You are now starting your sequence over, and lifting by contacting zone 2 from the floor is, obviously, out of sequence and not a valid climb. . To support this statement I leave you an excerpt form section 3.1.5.2 of the game manual.
emphasis mine.