Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 

Ok, our team was thinking of an extending hook that would grab the 3rd rung and winch us up as we drove up the side of the pyramid and stopped at possibly the 20 point zone. Would this be against the rule that says we would need to climb up sequentially?

Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 

Yes. If you grab the 3rd rung while on the floor, you are not climbing sequentially (because the floor is Level 0).

Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 

We used magnets on our minibot for logomotion and have discussed this...

Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 

Electromagnets may violate R32.

Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 

Please review <G22>. Also consider what the robot will do once it leaves the ground - can the bot acsend past a bar in that orientation?

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I know some have think about pneumatics but then It comes to having a "light" robot.. anyone has thought about something?

Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 

Seeing 3 robots all score the 30 point bonus on one tower will be like seeing the Loch Ness Monster this season.

(Seeing one climb that high in about 4 seconds after the buzzer on the other hand...)

:rolleyes:

There ya go Paul!

J.

Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 

Where exactly is the auto zone? My team would like know exactly where on the field your robot can go up to 84 inches?

Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 

Your colored carpet and i believe feeding station, not sure about the latter though

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The auto zones are the areas marked out but the long pieces of red and blue tape that cross the fields on the side of the pyramids closest to the center of the field. If you look at the field drawings in the manual, look for the biggest pieces of colored tape. Whenever you are contacting carpet within the zone or are touching the pyramid, you can go to 84".

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Look what they did a few years back in FTC. Look familar?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZjEtPgTrYPQ

Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 

Yeah, that was VEX round up. The biggest difference between then and now is that in round up, you could latch on to the top and pull yourself all the way up which is, unfortunately, illegal in Ultimate Ascent.

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That's true , but only grabbing the second rung with s similar technique would get you 10 points.

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Ok it took awhile to find, but here is a climbing robot that could climb our pyramid legally

http://robotzeitgeist.com/tag/climbing-robot

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Need idea, but that robot is touching more than 2 levels at a time, if you consider each rung of the ladder a level.

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Not sure if this is only an allusion to 2010 or if we should all be very, very afraid...
Either way I can't wait to see what you guys come up with in terms of climbing this thing, if you can do it in 4 seconds, that will be a feat of engineering itself, before or after the bell!

Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 

That's one of the most complicated elements of this climb. It cannot be accomplished using a method that is intuitive to how a human would complete the task (aside from jumping up the levels but I don't think most people will feel comfortable with a 100-something lb robot jumping around 5'-8' in the air).

Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 

Noticeably absent in this year’s competition is the lack of overt scoring opportunities for cooper-tition. I thought this was strange considering FIRST’s ever-present focus on gracious professionalism and collaboration. After three days of mulling over any solution for robo-soloing the tower completely above the first rung, it dawned on me that the design of the tower requires a collaborative approach and that’s why the number of points that can be achieved or so high in comparison to tossing a Frisbee. Team efforts receive more points than those of individuals. Really – They always have.

Although Frisbees are certainly involved in play, they play a minor role in scoring and are probably (forgive me) a red herring. I believe this contest is really a test of team’s abilities to work together to scale that structure. That may be the reason why an individual robot can’t make contact with more than two rungs at a time and can only skip the first rung. It seems that we’re being setup to work together and it’s that feature that may in fact be designed into the game as the desired outcome by the game’s designers.

I think that this must be the rationale behind the game hint we received from the GDC in the form of a still-shot of Rick Ashley music video, “Never Gonna Give You Up.” Here’s the refrain.

Never gonna give you up
Never gonna let you down
Never gonna run around and desert you

The good news… This makes climbing the pyramid much easier if teams work together. Now – How do you capture a Frisbee off the floor.

Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 

Yes, I've thought about this multiple ways.

My immediate thought after kickoff was to scoot under and send a grappling hook up to level 3, and "ride the elevator up". Until I read the rules, and realized you have to touch each level in order. Then I thought, climbing from the inside might be easier, if you depend on gravity to lean you into the climb. But after wrestling with it a bit, it would seem like it might be easier to climb from the outside, where the pyramid is somewhat underneath you.

Has anyone give thought to building a ramp bot to assist others in climbing? They show one in the video, but I'm very unclear on how that would affect the climbing sequence rule.

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The way I read the rules, I would say u r correct

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The difficult thing about helping partner robots up the pyramid is that they also have to satisfy the rules for ascending the pyramid in the proper order. They couldn't simply drive up a giant ramp or ride a lift up to the 3rd level, since they would need to contact a point on each level of the pyramid on the way up.

I think an inside climb might be slightly easier because you can grab a bar from beneath and winch or lift up, but I'm concerned about accidentally contacting the ground (level 0) when going from level 1 to level 2. Also you couldn't fit multiple robots inside the pyramid very well (not that we'll see many triple climbs anyway...).

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I think the wedge is a dead end for helping robots climb, myself, but a helper robot could be just a giant box with a flat front and a strong climbing mechanism that would support another robot from behind. Or, and this would be more difficult to implement because it would require more planning, a robot that was incredibly good at climbing and could pull another robot up from behind.

The triple climb could go a number of ways. Three robots on three different corners/planes at the third level means 90 points(!) :yikes: Even three robots on the same plane/corner could be 60 points, which means it's worth considering creating a really strong climber that can bring one or two other robots with it.

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What if you lift them up such that they never touch anything other than level 0?

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I'm worried. I see a lot of posts from folks who are misinterpreting the rules, and I'm worried that we'll see a host of unusable robots at the regionals. Yes, there is need for clarification from QA about whether the airspace directly above the tops of each rung constitutes a new zone, but I think the clear intention of the rules is that we find a solution that only allows us to touch (or exist in) two zones at a time. We therefore can't slide up the rungs, or use a hooked conveyor belt, or ski up them. Clearly, it would be much easier if you could balance on two rungs as you reach for a third, but you can't. you will have to freely swing from each rung as you try grasp the next one up.

Not trying to be a party pooper. I really do want to see some cool solutions, but I have been to enough events to have seen the heartbreak of teams who misread the rules, and have to play defense as a fallback, or completely rebuild on game day. :(

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According to the manual:

... emphasis mine ...

I agree there needs to be clarification from QA, but I see nothing that indicates the "air" in a level is "contacting" or "touching" the pyramid. So I'm not clear how such posts are "misintrepreting" the rules. Please show the rule or part of the manual that suggests your intrepretation.

Thanks!

Steve

Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 

Touch and "exist in" are not synonyms. The sequential & simultaneous contact rules are about just that (contact). Whether the airspace above the rung constitutes the next level (which it does) is immaterial for this purpose, because contact is based on the steel, not the air. Skiing, driving, hooking, etc are only illegal if they contact the steel in the next level before losing contact with n-2. I don't see anything in these posts that indicated teams don't understand this?

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I brought that idea up at kickoff, but people were especially skeptical that such a thing might be possible. The amount of coordination between teams would be insane, especially if there isn't another robotics team near you.

Coming from the Montreal region, almost half of the teams at the Montreal regional will be rookies (either brand new teams, or 1 to 2 years old). Granted, some of them are insanely good, and are quickly catching up to us, but still, it would be really hard to organize and get everyone to stick with it.

If we could devise a standardized way to get two robots to climb together, that would be cool... but would it be a waste of time?

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I think you will see teams go up in 4 secs but if you can do it after the buzzer then i will bow down now.

Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 

As I understand it, in order to ski up the rungs you must be supported by rungs 1 and 2, touch rung 3 and release rung 1, in that order. That is my concern; in order to meet the requirements of the rules, you must NOT touch rung 1 when you begin touching rung 3. That leaves you balancing on only rung 2. I don't see how that would work, but maybe I'm missing something.

Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 

I'm also taking into account that in order to score 10, 20 or 30 points, the robot must exist entirely above the plane that defines each zone. I don't think (from my reading) that a robot could, for instance, grab the first bar, then the second, release the first, grab the third, release the second, and be hanging with the wheels below the plane of first (or second) bar, and still get 30 points, regardless of whether the robot is touching any but the third bar.

Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 

So this coordination...how much would a team REALLY need beforehand? A team could design a robot that is nothing more than a rectangle with an unbelievably strong climbing mechanism to push robots up as needed. That's a reasonable plan, in my view.

What about this for a vaguely universal coordination system:
Those are push pull scrapers. Basically one pulls up behind the other, lowers a big hoop onto a hook on the back of the other, and the amount of power available for pulling dirt up off the ground is instantly greater. So for FIRST teams, they could (very easily it seems) put a hook on the back and a window motor actuated hoop on the front and boom-universal system is ready to go. At least one team doing this has to be the first one on the pyramid, however, and they are going to need a climbing mechanism, so at least in theory a team could have only the hook on the back of their robot and others could hook on. Point is, this is well within the reach of most teams and the strains on a push pull scraper are many many times greater than what we would have with our FIRST robots, so making it smaller seems like it could work.

Now...does it make sense for teams to do this? I have no idea. I do think it's a reasonable thing for teams to put together and providing it does not violate any rules (none are coming to mind), it seems solid as long as a few teams close to one another do it.

Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 

this is cool
http://youtu.be/kqGOwqWBV-E

Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 

Climb legality and scoring value are entirely different things. Climb legality is based on contact; scoring is based on the lowest point of your robot in space. Do you feel the manual has left this ambiguous? I can't quote it from my phone, but what would you want to see clarified?

Skiing: Ok, if that's your definition of skiing, then true (illegal). That isn't so much the way I've heard it used, but definitely agree people considering it should be made aware. Perhaps reach out to them directly?

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Then the robot would not have performed a proper CLIMB, since it has not made contact with the pyramid. This results in no score.

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There is a standardized way: deploy a copy of the pyramid around one half of your robot (so including a corner and at least a few feet of bar to one side) at 30 inches. Any robot built to hang can then hang on that bar, then you can pull them up for 60 points. That depends on the other robot being able to hang, however.

It also depends on how you interpret the climbing rules... but it is my belief that robots have successfully climbed if they get to level 3 height without touching any parts of the pyramid.

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Under what circumstances can a robot skip the first rung? I read the game manual 3.1.5.2 as requiring contact with the pyramid in each zone (to get the points of the higher zones). Maybe you meant a robot climbing up the corner, so it contacts the pyramid on the corner piece in zone 1?

Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 

Here is a way two robots working together could score 40 points legally, relatively easily.

Robot A: Flat top 8" off the ground with a ramp.
Robot B: Vertical arm with hook on top, extendible to 83 inches (max height is 84 inches)

1) Both robots drive into pyramid.
2) Robot B drives on top of robot A.
3) Robot A drives to center of pyramid.
4) Robot B extends arm 25 inches (25+8=33)
5) Robot A drives so robot B's arm taps zone 1 bar.
6) Robot A drives to center of pyramid.
7) Robot B extends arm 55 inches (55+8=63)
8) Robot A drives so robot B's arm taps zone 2 bar.
9) Robot A drives to center of pyramid.
10) Robot B extends arm 83 inches (83+8=91)
11) Robot A drives so robot A's arm hooks onto zone 3 bar.
12) Robot B retracts arm (or activates winch) and raises itself straight up into zone 3 for 30 points.

This sequence follows the rules for climbing the pyramid precisely, robot B contacting each level sequentially and never contacting more than two levels at once.

For even more scoring goodness, robot A then raises an arm, hooks the zone 1 bar and lifts off the floor for another 10 points.

Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 

That seems to be in direct conflict with the rules.

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Teams had a hard time feeding balls to great shooters last year so I feel safe in saying this is not going to happen.

Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 

I'm not committed yet to the idea that scoring and climbing are entirely separate in terms of legality. I think there is some ambiguity that will need to be clarified on Wednesday. One reason is the weirdness of the idea that you must touch the footing (level 0) of the pyramid before progressing to the first rung. 3.1.5.2 could be interpreted as equating the "pyramid" not with the metal bars but with the zones controlled by the bars.

The implications of zones rather than bars are:
1) it will be a lot more difficult to grab the bars if level 1 ends at the plane tangent to the top of bar 1; climbing the corners may be the only feasible method.
2) If a robot is fortunate enough to have reached level 2, it could drop a line to a waiting alliance member below, and carry that robot up enough to no longer be in level 0.

If bars rather than zones,
1) climbing the rungs becomes more feasible (though still difficult).
2) a robot at level 3 could lower a cable to a robot partner on the ground, and lift it up, so long as the lower robot reaches out and touches the pyramid at specific points.

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Extending the arm over 54" seems to be in violation with the rule that says your robot must never extend outside a 54" diameter cylinder.

Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 

I believe he means to extend the arm 54" vertically, rather than horizontally.

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The max envelope is a cylinder 54" in diameter, 84 inches tall.

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For any teams that have a 3D printer, I just published a design that might help you think about climbing. I made the model for my desk at home so I can stare at it and imagine all the robots climbing up.

http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:40727

Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 

That is super cool.

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I believe this is the interpretation that was intended. They would not have made the pyramid as it is without intending teams to climb the outer or inner 'faces' of the pyramid.

your second point about lifting a robot that touches each section in sequence (probably by being bounced off the horizontal bars along the way) seems like a legal corner case to me.

Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 

Here's another cooperation idea.

The trickiest part of the climb is leaving zone 0 before touching the zone 2 bar. If you could sit on the floor and reach up to the zone 2 bar (touching zone 1 bar first, of course), inch worming up to the top isn't too hard.

So, robot A deploys a tarp from a roll and tows the tarp under the lowest bar, spreading it out to cover the ground. The tarp could be pretty big and not violate the 54" diameter rule. Robot B drives onto the tarp, thus leaving contact with zone 0, and inchworms up the pyramid, from bar to bar.

Robot A then reels in the tarp and hangs for ten points. Much less coordination between the two robots.

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On the subject of coopertition...

A few kids on my team had the idea of a skyhook that would reach down and grab a friendly robot by attaching to the eyelets/connecting points that are meant for the belay system. Making a skyhook, though, will be tough.

Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 

I thought skyhooks were in the same genre as snipe hunts. Odd that they would be useful for design ideas...

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Just prop yourself up on an air cylinder "foot" on top of a frisbee, throw a batman hook to rung 2 (making sure to somehow touch rung 1 in the process) and hang for a quick 20, or climb for a slower 30.

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My team is thinking about two options at this point.

A. A tall robot that will position a v shaved divot around the corner and haul itself up via belt or arms and ratcheting over the knuckles (Keeping the base horizontal to the floor)

or

B. A short robot that would drive up the corner, forcing itself up on a rail, and pulling itself up along the bottom of the robot using neumatic pistons, also using the ratcheting system.

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Strategies using discs to aid or inhibit climbing are out per G16.

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G16: TEAMS and/or ROBOTS may not employ strategies that use DISCS to either aid or inhibit a ROBOT CLIMB.

Violation: TECHNICAL FOUL. If the DISC(S) inhibits an opponent’s CLIMB attempt, the opponent ROBOT’S ALLIANCE is awarded points for a successful Level 3 CLIMB.

Sorry, no dice! (nice idea though)

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Ah was playing off the tarp idea. A retractable "parachute" seems more attractive now.

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i'm an alumni of Team 1108, Panther Robotics and we have our 2nd robot which was apart of the 2004 FIRST Frenzy game. our climbing mechanism is a winch made from the CIM equivalent motor paired with a Dualt drill transmission. this combination was indestructible durring competition and had no problems lifting a 140 lb robot (battery weight included)

Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 

lolol. The only consistent "feeding" I saw was during autonomous when a team programmed their bot to regurgitate all their balls into an excellent shooter. Other than that....lol. This requires WAY too much coordination for two teams who haven't even met before.

Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 

So I wouldn't be surprised to see my interpretation disallowed on Q and A, but I do think that it works as the rules stand.

Here it goes:
"Points are awarded for the highest Level achieved for every ALLIANCE ROBOT that CLIMBS its PYRAMID. The Level to which a ROBOT has CLIMBED is determined by the lowest point of the ROBOT (in relation to the FIELD). CLIMB point values and Levels are defined in Figure 3-4.

A ROBOT has CLIMBED its PYRAMID if it contacts the PYRAMID in sequential order (Level 0, 1, 2, 3) during ascent and no more than two (2) Levels simultaneously.

If a CLIMB is considered unacceptable (e.g. a ROBOT has touched non-adjacent Levels or more than two (2) Levels at a time), a Referee will indicate a rejected CLIMB by turning the offending ROBOT’S PLAYER STATION LED strings yellow. The ROBOT will be ineligible for CLIMB points unless and until it begins a new CLIMB from the floor, Level 0."

So a robot that is boosted past 60'' is at the highest Level, and the rules say that a robot gets credit for the highest Level (the top) for a successful CLIMB (passing the following criteria). The question is whether or not it has CLIMBED legally. Did the robot contact the pyramid in sequential order? Well, probably - it certainly wasn't out of order, as all it touched was level 0, and the rules never specifically state that robots much contact each level that they want credit for. And the robot clearly hasn't contacted more than two levels simultaneously.

If you look at the (e.g ...) section in the third paragraph, then a boosted robot has succeeded even more easily - it definitely didn't touch non-adjacent levels or more than two at a time. That said, other scenarios that pass the (e.g. ...) part fail the first part.

Bottom line: would I be surprised if Q and A said that I was wrong? Not really. But it does make sense to make it slightly easier for teams to help others, as there are additional coordination/strategy problems with assisting others.

Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 

It seems that many people want to climb the corner. However, it is going to be near impossible to keep from spinning. There would need to be an incredibly complex system to prevent spinning without breaking the device

Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 

A robot climbing the corner, particularly from the outside, could use the floor and/or rungs to avoid spinning. It's not easy, but I wouldn't characterize it as "near impossible" or "incredibly complex". Our team is working on a few concepts along these lines, but nothing solid yet.

Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 

I think this is a bad assumption. Humans employ several different ways of climbing depending on the person, their build, and any athletic training they might have.

I think that this is a bad assumption also.

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It seems like a lot of ideas require claws or grippers which do not rotate on the pipe. Would a pipe wrench mechanism work in this situation? It would allow you to pivot your robot up in one direction without rotating back due to your center of gravity. I don't know if it would properly grip the pyramid or if it would damage the pipes, but perhaps someone could test this. (I say someone and not me because I am just an alum and my team doesn't want to climb past lvl 1).

Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 

There are very clever design ideas that can climb the corner and provide for stability without requiring a gorilla grip on the pipe or rungs.

-Mike

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The thing that's different this year is that many teams will have hoppers to accept Frisbees from the loading station. If you can make your robot look like a feeder slot chances are you will be able to find a mate.

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After working on assembling a practice tower, I don't thing that a non-slip grip on a pipe is a good idea. The pipes we used weren't powder coated, and pipe wrenches visibly damaged them with less than 50 pounds of force. To grip the pipe without damaging the finish seems very difficult. I guess it's a function of how many square inches of contact patch you have, but the sub-inch contact patch of a pipe wrench isn't enough.

We've been looking at leverage against the tower support posts below the horizontal pipes, they are in the same zone. A pretty compact "claw" can make solid three-point contact with a single Level of the pyramid and support 150 pounds with compression contact only.

Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 

Thank you for the insight! Do you think the corner pipes could still hold up to something like this (notwithstanding the horizontal rung 'bumps'), or is there still a serious risk of field damage?

Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 

You could have a mechanism that grabs onto the notches lift you up just enough that you can then go back to climbing the rail

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Hey! Not precisely true! We're prototyping for both level one and level three designs!

On another note, perhaps a dual engagement version of 2056's 2010 climbing mechanism would work. The first "climber" contacts the module, and the robot is lifted to vertical (or maybe so that the side of the robot is roughly parallel to the side pole, rolls up to the first bump, at which point the second set engages above the bump and the first stage disengages. Repeating this process would lead to a "hand-over-hand" approach to climbing the side.

Of course, balance would be a possible issue here...

Challenges like this are what makes FIRST so fun!

Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 

This is EXACTLY what our team originally talked about! We based our original thinking off of Team 33 Killer Bees' hanger arm but essentially the same idea. A tumbling robot up the pyramid. The first arm would rotate the robot 180 degrees. Then the second would grip and flip the robot over again and so on.

Our new thoughts have gone in a direction of two arms and a horseshoe shaped wide robot. Lots more prototyping to do...

Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 

Actually we were thinking sans the tumbling, as that seems overly complicated. As much as I love to see robots flipping over, it seems slower and more prone to failure than a (fairly) straight shot up the pyramid.

Do you think that the horseshoe is an inefficient use of perimeter? Or is it really just having an open side? I am interested in seeing what mechanism makes that make sense though...

Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 

If what you mean by a horseshoe shaped frame is a frame wih a cutout on one side for an intake mechanism or for climbing purposes, it does not get included in the 112 inches of robot perimeter; the perimeter is the convex frame of the robot, so it does not include cutouts. See the rectangluar robot picture in Rule R03, figure 4.1.

I think there will be teams that manage to climb by repeated flipping the robot as previously described, but in my understanding, it would require a failry flat and symmetric robot, which could heavily constrain the designs of a shooter and hopper.

Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 

Ah. Thanks for explaining that. It makes more sense now.

I'm betting there will be teams that do it too. I am fairly sure you could do it with a rectangular-ly shaped robot in non-three dimensions, if the superstructure was supportive enough. I would see it as attaching the first side face, then pulling up, then attaching from the top of that face, and pulling up, and so on. Of course, that's just a concept.

Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 

:deadhorse:

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Not sure if this idea has been said yet, but I thought it might work to have a setup similar to the Team 2648 Breakaway bot (http://www.team2648.com/our-robots.html). If you have two of the arms shown on each end of the robot, it would be fairly easy to have one attach to the first level, lift the robot off the ground, and then have the second arm on the back attach to level 2. I don't think it would be feasible for it to reach level 3, but I thought it was a decent plan.

A problem with this, however, is that the first level is only 30 inches off the ground, which might make it difficult to accomplish the lifting mechanism shown.

Any ideas on this?

Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 

Emphasis mine

I'm interpreting this that you don't have to "climb" the first level, merely touch it. So maybe if you did a Robot-in-3-days-esque climber that barely lifts the robot at all, and that would be enough to "contact" the first level and continue on to the second.

Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 

I think the hard part is not re-contacting the floor once you've lifted yourself onto level one. A level-one chin-up will be difficult to turn into a level-two climb, methinks...

Those grippers that just don't slide when they grab a pipe might damage the powdercoat, and that might disqualify mechanisms from gameplay. (I'm not sure on that one, but it's worth considering.)

Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 

Points for the climb are awarded based on the zone lowest point on the robot occupies. If you touch level 1 but do not lift off of level 0 (the ground), you will be awarded points based on being "in" level 0, which is no points. You must lift off the ground to receive level 1 points.

Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 

I'm really worried about this, and I'm a little surprised there hasn't been more talk of it--am I missing something? I still like the 2010-esque latches (that can move out of the way of the horizontal crossbars) for this, but I don't even know how I'd know if they damaged the powercoat until competition time. Heck of a thing to be find illegal and lose 10-30pts/match over.

@Nuttyman54: you know you're agreeing with him, right? ;) (re: "barely lifts the robot")

Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 

My point was, if you go back and look at the video he linked, he expressed concerns that that mechanism wouldn't work because (paraphrasing) "it had to climb level one first, which is only 30" high." I was saying that because the wording of the rule is "contacts," it doesn't have to. It has to touch each level sequentially, and no more than two at once, but it doesn't have to climb each and every level.

So, my thought was, a mechanism that clearly touches the first level (by lifting the robot slightly) would be enough to satisfy that requirement before using the mechanism in the video to lift up to level 2, and hang for the 20 points.

Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 

Is this legal? http://youtu.be/OY4BAbgWvdY

I see the robot being in more than two leves at the same time but only touching two.

Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 

I would say yes, after the hook is placed you are only contacting two levels (it looks like the track maybe contacting the 2nd level) the floor and first. Then after the lift, the robot is in level one only. When the second hook is deployed, you are in contact with on two levels again, making it still a legal climb and so on.

This was an idea I presented today, I think its a great one.

Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 

I've read through this entire thread and i was just confused. Are you allowed to drive into the pyramid and latch onto the second rung and winch yourselves up or do you have to touch the first rung first? Or is it that if you are outside the pyramid and latch onto the second rung and winch your self to victory? Are they both legal? Neither? Please help or at least some clarification.

Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 

It's very slick. Check out the video from the kickoff:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bp4cILBW-xM

Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 

[I underlined the part I'm responding to.]

This would not be a legal climb (it would get 0 points). Game Manual section 3.1.5.2 says the robot must contact the pyramid levels in sequential order. This proposal would contact level 0 (floor) and 2 (second rung), but not level 1.

If you modify this somehow to make it valid, it would be 20 points.

Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 

To expand on what Cal578 said, you need to make sure you observe both of the rules when performing your climb.

In order for a legal climb to get to level 2 points, you need to contact sequentially and contact no more than 2 levels simultaneously. This means that you must first contact the pyramid at level one and lift yourself such that you are no longer contacting the floor (level 0). Only then can you contact level 2 and lift yourself into that zone.

Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 

I'm glad vikesrock expanded on what I said. I actually meant to respond to both proposals. I don't know why I only underlined the second. There isn't any difference (from a rules point of view) between climbing inside or outside the pyramid.

Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 

It's interesting, but I'm concerned that you don't have bumpers drawn in there. I suspect it's going to be pretty difficult to get a bumper over the rung if you're lifting like that.

Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 

You could always drop a small wedge over the top of the bumper to make it ride smooth. There are ways around bumpers if you need it.

Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 

Exactly.

Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 

So Q&A clarified some things today. The following are now confirmed true:

1) The floor is level 0; not the footings of the pyramid.
2) The airspace and the pyramid are not the same thing for climbing legalities. Your robot can "exist" in the airspace of levels 1, 2 and 3 at the same time as long as it only touches the pyramid on two or less of those levels at once.

Question: does anyone think it would be a good idea to plan for the following scenario?

Robot A successfully climbs to level 3 and lowers a winch with a "claw" (or other lifting device) to robot B, waiting on the ground. The winch doesn't touch the ground (thus nullifying the climb), only the top of robot B. It lifts robot B off the ground. If B is only lifted to level 1, both robots get only 10 points each. If lifted to level 2, both robots get 20 points each. In certain circumstances, robot B might be lifted as high as level 3.

This would only work if alliance robots have some sort of bar attached to the top of their robot which allows them to be lifted. Level 3 could only be accomplished if both bots were tiny and well balanced.

Worth the effort?

Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 

The way to score points for climbing is, the robot has to touch each level as it climbs, so robot B would get zero points.

Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 

Please quote rules when making statements to give proof, as I would disagree with the one you just made. When climbing, a robot can't touch two non-adjacent levels and it can't touch 3 levels at once, per section 3.1.5.2. I don't see anything requiring a touch of every level. Because robot B only contacted zone 0, they satisfy the requirements as currently written for a valid hang.

Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 

And yet somehow the rules explicitly state that "A ROBOT has CLIMBED its PYRAMID if it contacts the PYRAMID and/or the floor (Level 0) in ... sequential order (Level 0, 1, 2, 3) during ascent."

There's nothing wrong with asking for people to quote the rules, but please at least read one page of this thread before calling someone out.

Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 

Underline mine.

Am I breaking the numerical sequence and contacting non-adjacent levels if I go from level 0 to being supported by something else entirely? I fail to see how this would be breaking the sequence. The proposed solution never contacts levels 2 or 3, so it doesn't break the order of (Level 0, 1, 2, 3), it just doesn't continue past 0.

Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 

Do you see it now? You don't have to touch every level. Only the ones you want credit for and only if you want a valid climb. Heck you don't even have to climb at all if you don't want too.

I'm going to assume that by "being supported by something else entirely" you mean another robot. In this case, you're right, you can go from the ground, up in the air with the assistance from another robot. It's just not worth any points unless after leaving level 0, the next level you contact is level one.

Excuse the fact that I'm not going to post the rule needed because it was already posted in reference to your last post.

On a side note, sorry for pushing your robot over at Championship last year.

Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 

I forgot one of the important aspects, forgive me. Robot B would swing a bit on the cable, enough to touch the bars as it ascends. Now worth it?

Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 

That would now be worth points for robot B, as it would now touch the levels in order, until its final spot, making it a valid climb.

Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 

Where did you see this in the Q&A section? No one on our team can find this question / answer.

Thanks

Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 

I would guess they were referring to the January 8th team update for this part:
http://frc-manual.usfirst.org/Updates/0
The specific quote, with new text in bold.
This seems to clarify that level 0 is indeed the floor. I hope that answers your question!

Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 

While true, the rules do not currently require you to contact any level besides 0 in order to receive climb points. (Sequence = 0 and Max Simultaneous Levels = 1, then climb legal and credit given by lowest point on robot)

There'll be a Q&A question to by this afternoon at the latest, so no need heat up the debate too much. Anyone interested in suspending, stay tuned.

Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 

We are working on our robot design ideas. I was wondering if this idea would work.
Our idea is to have three arms. Two are going to grab onto the bar while the third keeps it in place.:] We want to get to the third level then dump four of the color frisbees in. Any ideas to help with the design? We need an idea for how we are fully going to climb the tower.

Night_Shade