Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 

What Siri says. There's nothing in the rules that says you have to touch a particular level before you can be scored in that level. This interpretation assumes that if you're only touching the floor, you have a valid climb. Then you proceed up the pyramid and have the chance to invalidate your climb by breaking one of the two climbing rules. Once you invalidate your climb, you have to go back to the floor as the starting valid state.

The opposing interpretation implies that you have to actively fulfill those two rules to create a valid climb. Which raises the question of whether you have to climb all the way to level 3 to create a valid climb, since the rules don't mention anything about stopping.

Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 

Our team might have our tower powder coated. I'll have to mention testing some of these things to the mentors. Most likely we're going with a non-clamping design.

Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 

Here is our plan that we are trying to flesh out
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B44T...V0Z0JlM1U/edit
Hope it works
_____________

Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 

Ok, I don't mean to picky here, but I just realized what might be a problem. Imagine a hook that fits on the bar. Since the hook is touching the top of the bar, and the middle of the bar, this hook is touching the pyramid in 2 levels.
If you had hooks of any sort that pulled you up with say, something holding you on a lower bar, 1 level, and the one above is hooked on a bar, you are in 3 zones, if only by the quarter inch thickness of the claw.........

Any thoughts? Would they be this picky in the rules?

Thanks
Mike

Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 

The bar counts as being in the zone below it.

Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 

You can only not CONTACT more than 2 levels at once. You can OCCUPY as many as you'd like.

Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 

Ok are team is at a bit of a standstill on climbing. We realized that our climbing idea won't work because of the rule that says we can't extend outside a 54" cylinder. So we decided to figure out a way to go up the corner legs. Any ideas?

Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 

We're trying to do what some teams did for 2010, with a grab and turn mechanism. We grab onto the pole, flip, and with a second arm, grab, flip, and repeat until we get up to the top.

Climbing seems much more difficult than we anticipated.
Our strategy put climbing ahead of shooting, but I'm beginning to think that that wasn't the best idea.

Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 

Anyways... No one I've mentioned this too really likes my idea but it goes like this...

I simply use a spring loaded a "jumping" mechanism that would catapult my robot towards the top rung. While in mid flight, the robot reaches out and briefly touches level 1 and 2 in that order, then grasps on to the top rung.

I enjoy imagining what would happen if it misses...

Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 

I'm enjoying imagining the look on your Lead Robot Inspector's face when you tell him that.

Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 

Well, I would say, "Hey, we have bumpers." And I can always install a parachute...

Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 

...at which point Ether would post a pithy comment about the math underlying the parachute and why this is unwise. ;)

Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 

re: "I simply use a spring loaded a "jumping" mechanism that would catapult my robot towards the top rung. While in mid flight, the robot reaches out and briefly touches level 1 and 2 in that order, then grasps on to the top rung."

There are some tough challenges here. The amount of power required to have a 120 lb (150 lb w/battery and bumpers) robot 'jump' ~9' is ridiculous and extremely dangerous. The skill level required to do this and touch the levels and then grasp the top row is outrageously difficult. You're much better off just grabbing the bottom row and picking up an easy 10 points.

Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 

Is it more realistic and safer if my robot is 60 lbs including battery and bumper?

Anyways... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6b4ZZQkcNEo

Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 

This year's rule limiting horizontal size AT ALL TIMES to staying within a 54" cylinder is very severe in light of the sloping nature of the climbing challenge.

How many people realize that if your robot is a cube of just over 31" on a side, then your diagonal is already at the 54" size limit.

So suppose that during climbing your robot flips around or swings some as it transitioning levels, well you better not have a very tall or wide robot, or you are going to have one of your diagonal dimensions exceed the 54" diameter limit.

We are thinking of having our robot lean over 30 degrees onto the pyramid corner, and establish a contact zone that bridges the dihedral angle, for extra stability as we transition the rungs, especially at the point where robot sits on only one rung while reaching for the next

However, we then realized that this 30 degrees of lean over will SEVERELY limit what our initial footprint can be.

Has your team taken this into consideration?
What is the longest DIAGONAL dimension of your robot going to be, and how will robot movements during climbing cause this dimension to GROW in the horizontal projection of its length?

There are going to be a lot of penalties for teams who overlook this.
I see people talking about deploying gripper arms to swing themselves upward, but I suspect that unless they are very small, they will exceed the 54" horizontal diameter limit.

Many other ideas being described are not taking this factor into consideration.

My own opinion is that with this games design, there should have been some horizontal expansion allowance for robots in contact with the pyramid.

-Dick Ledford

Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 

Maybe I'm missing something here... when a 31" cube sits flat on the ground its diagonal dimension in the horizontal plane is ~44". Or are you referring to the fact that when this cube is rotated 45 degrees from the horizontal plane then its diagonal dimension is ~54" horizontally? Depending on your climbing method your robot may not ever rotate to 45 degrees, given that the pyramid is 60/68 degrees based on your approach.

The 54" rule certainly makes the challenge harder but I think a lot of designs could still be done if the mounting location of the climber is changed on the robot frame. Remember that your initial frame doesn't have to stay parallel to the ground while climbing.

Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 

We had this amazing idea.. Then became stuck because of real estate

Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 

I am referring to the cube's diagonal as being the segment going through 2 corners AND the CENTER of the cube, not the FACE diagonal going thru the center of any face.

Yes, if you can maintain proper orientation in the 54" cylinder, this can be handled, but robots tumbling out of controll are going to rack up plenty of technical fouls.

-Dick Ledford

Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 

That makes more sense, I was looking too literally at how a robot might lean to get on the pyramid.

Robots tipping over are going to generate quite a few penalties this year. 30 point climbs will be huge match swings not only for the amount of points they score but for the penalty points they could cause if failed.

Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 

a lot of team doing like robot arm for climbing mechanism

Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 

GDC has a fun definition of "continuously".

Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 

I don't think my team is capable of doing this, but one idea would be to "somersault" up the edge of the pyramid. I think this could be done pretty quickly and effectively, and I am even placing a bet that some of the top teams will do it. One example would be team 148's mechanism to grab onto the pole, lift itself up, then have a second arm on the other end of the robot grab on, the first arm would let go, the robot would flip using the second arm, and so on: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_hTyXQUgYLE

Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 

I keep seeing this suggestion, and I keep wondering what exactly the plan is after the second bicep curl leaves the robot 4 feet in the air with its wheels facing the pole.

Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 

Presumably, you'd just grab back on with the first arm again and repeat ( assuming arms with 180 degrees of rotation)

Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 

To get a proper handle on what we were dealing with, we drew out on large, taped-together pieces of paper a 54" circle, a template of our robot frame plus bumpers, and a top-down view of one "zone" of the pyramid corner (post-bottom to knuckle-top).

We had more room than we thought, but less than we might want.

Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 

The flipping or "rolling" up the corner edge with alternating short grip arms is how we are prototyping to go up the pyramid. Our style of gripper will not need to squeeze hard or damage the power coated tubes. The angle formed by the intersecting horizontal tubes is how/where we will grip, avoiding the slope tube entirely.

We will be able to grasp next higher level BEFORE releasing from one below. We will not tip or swivel around laterally, because our grasp mechanism will bridge across the two intersecting horizontal tubes, yet avoid contacting the slope tube.

We will not drive; only shoot 2or 3 in autonomous. We may hoist others up, if we can keep hoist near enough to level rungs to have partner(s) bump them on the way up. They may have to extend some to snag our hook, since we can only lower it so much, but even if we only pull them up to the 20 pt. level, that is a nice bonus for a no driving bot to make.

The robot will be kind of vertically notched so it can straddle the corner edge tube at match start, allowing center of mass to be starting nearer to the initial gripping points.

-Dick Ledford

Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 

BTW, I forgot to emphasize that the BUMPERS must ALSO be counted as part of the 54" vertical cylinder diameter limit. This makes it really hard to climb by flipping or rolling, with out extending beyond the limit.

-Dick Ledford

Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 

Sounds like a good strategy, but I would be worried if you cannot drive. You will be valuable for your hanging, hoisting, and auto shooting, but I would wary of picking a robot that essentially leaves my alliance playing 2v3 for most of the match. The points that you score might be enough to offset this, but I will be very interested to see how this strategy pans out for you.

Good luck! I hope that it works!

Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 

We certainly had some resistance to this approach from several team members, but the majority favored it.

One big plus is that it is virtually undefendable.
All the other good mobile bots are still subject to defense, which can lower their match scores dramatically, whereas our contribution is more reliable.
We also allow for less queue at the feeders, and less traffic congestion.

The big negative is the 3-on-2 advantage of the opposing alliance.
Still, we could not see ourselves getting ~50 or more points any easier way, and we are still finding more ways to score from on top of the pyramid.

-Dick Ledford

Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 

Where do you plan to start your robot? What if your alliance partners need you in a different spot? Are there multiple locations you can do autonomous discs and the lift?

Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 

We have an idea for a climber that will go up to the third level and then dump four colored discs in. We would score fifty points everytime, but there is resistance from members of the team because 1)we do not have a pyramid to test it on yet, making it difficult to do and 2) they believe we can score more points shooting. The reason for the disconnect is differing beliefs on how accurate shooters are going to be. Those who want a shooter believe at least 75%, but those who want a climber think it will be much lower than this.

Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 

I would say that if you're going to design a robot that centers around climbing, I suggest you start asking around local teams if they'll let you use their pyramid for testing. Part of effective strategies for FIRST is building within your resources. Based off of the pleathora of shooters being posted, I believe a 75% stable accuracy would be a very do-able shooter. Combine that with the myriad of safe zones this year, it would come down to how many trips (or lack of trips for floor loading) you can make in a match. The 50pts is a very attractive number, but you have to be dang well sure you're hit that third tier every single time. When you're shooting, each grouping of point runs should be independent of the previous run. With the 50pts, it's an all or nothing run. Also, shooting in Autonomous is the first tie breaker between seeding.

Just my $.02 and some food for thought.

Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 

We were considering grappling hooks and ascending to the sound of elevator music generated by a mini boombox inside our robot XD

Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 

I would love to see a robot do the 30pt climb, reach out an arm to do the 20pt dunk, slam the discs into the goal, and then start blasting Slam Jam out of the robot.

Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 

We will start out straddling either far (from goals) outside corner of the pyramid.
We will switch to forward corners if we have issues being consistnet with accuracy of our 3 autonomous shots.

-Dick Ledford

Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 

challenge-accepted.jpg

Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 

maybe if you had a bot push another with some rolling bot to lv 1 then the bot on lv one pull a bot with some claw device and the bot being pull on with grip on to the thrid bot with claw etc then with some rolling divice on one of the corners all 3 with 1 or 2 of them rolling can go up the corner of the pyramid not all with goto lv 3 but it would stil be points (only a idea ) :yikes:

Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 

I appreciate your enthusiasm but you might get a better response to your idea if you spend a couple extra minutes properly composing your thoughts into your post. We are, at the core, striving to push the community to a higher level...want to join us??

Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 

We are using pyramids of local teams, but they are around a half hour drive away from our building site. The idea we have would be reliable and if there was a team that focused on not allowing us to obtain the four colored discs, we could at least get 30 points. The way our shooter is designed, it would be easily blocked by a robot that can still go under the pyramid. It isn't making a shooter that is accurate that is the problem, it is making one that shoots quickly and accurately in the context of the game.

Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 

Our team has had a long running joke of building a "Rave"-bot for competition.

You've made my day.

And of course:

Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 

Of course, and before going to Ramp Riot, where we brought an off-season project robot, our auton was set to spin in circles and play Gangnam Style from the driverstation while flashing LEDs :)


Unfortunately we had to change it to actually do something, though :(

Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 

Solid idea, don't forget to consider using one mechanism for multiple tasks. For example, you would make your alliance value much higher if you used your frisbee dumper to score 3 frisbees in the low goal during auto and continuing to score there or play defense during the game.

That would help offset the some of the negatives that come with this robot idea...
Originally Posted by RRLedford
The flipping or "rolling" up the corner edge with alternating short grip arms is how we are prototyping to go up the pyramid. Our style of gripper will not need to squeeze hard or damage the power coated tubes. The angle formed by the intersecting horizontal tubes is how/where we will grip, avoiding the slope tube entirely.

good luck to both teams, I would certainly consider either of your robots for my alliance!

Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 

A lot of you guys are mentioning the 54" cylinder, which is great. However, don't forget about the max frame perimeter of 112"! A 30" square bot would be at 120"!

Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 

We would potentially be able to shoot two in during auton, but that is about it. We would make sure to climb the pyramid early so as to make sure that we have time to gt up, otherwise we lose all of our points. So depending on how quickly we will be able to make it up, we might not play much defense.

Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 

Now add to that a wheel which extends underneath the robot to prop it against the bar while reaching for the next level and we are considering the same design. We've even prototyped a mechanism which successfully climbed the pyramid unweighted. Trying to fit it into the cylinder is proving to be very difficult. If used, the enormity of the mechanism will force us to sacrifice a lot of our disc-shooter-goal scoring ability, which some of our team is strongly against.

When you start to CAD these designs one thing becomes apparent: either you focus on the climb, or you focus on the discs. Doing both well: nearly impossible.

Personally, I really like the 50 pt climb and dump strategy.

The advantage in my mind is that it allows you to score all of your points really fast and lets your team focus on perfecting a repeatable task.

If you're robot is only designed to climb and dump, you can spend the rest of the match playing defense. Essentially, you are forcing the other alliance to score 50+ pts under heavy D.... or.... beat you up the pyramid (which is unlikely if you have optimized your robot for this strategy).

If you focus on scoring discs. You need to be better at scoring discs than anyone else to win. There will be lots of bots scoring discs and you will need to outscore them. Very few will attempt the 50 pt strategy.

Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 

If used, the enormity of the mechanism will force us to sacrifice a lot of our disc-shooter-goal scoring ability, which some of our team is strongly against.

When you start to CAD these designs one thing becomes apparent: either you focus on the climb, or you focus on the discs. Doing both well: nearly impossible.

Personally, I really like the 50 pt climb and dump strategy.

The advantage in my mind is that it allows you to score all of your points really fast and lets your team focus on perfecting a repeatable task.

If you're robot is only designed to climb and dump, you can spend the rest of the match playing defense. Essentially, you are forcing the other alliance to score 50+ pts under heavy D.... or.... beat you up the pyramid (which is unlikely if you have optimized your robot for this strategy).

If you focus on scoring discs. You need to be better at scoring discs than anyone else to win. There will be lots of bots scoring discs and you will need to outscore them. Very few will attempt the 50 pt strategy.[/quote]

My thoughts exactly. We have others on our team who do not like the idea though.

Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 

What makes you say that?

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I know this thread has been dormant for a while, but Sparky is trying to lighten our bot with switching our super shifter climbing mechanism to a tough box 3 stage. Does anybody have experience with this transmission? We are at a fork in the road try this and find the bugs or lighten the super shifter. Video of us climbing at the shop: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G8iIy...ature=youtu.be