Chief Delphi
Page 1 of 3 1 23 >
Show 100 post(s) from this thread on one page

Chief Delphi (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/index.php)
-   General Forum (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=16)
-   -   Climbing Mechanism Ideas (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=110547)

MetalJacket 06-01-2013 11:55
Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 
There's already a thread for shooter ideas so what are you guys thinking in terms of climbing?

Robby Unruh 06-01-2013 12:03
Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 
My team has been prototyping something along the lines of a "bike peddler" design.

Nominal 06-01-2013 12:08
Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 
One of my teams ideas was to have a conveyor belt like mechanizm with claws to grasp the bars

scott1363 06-01-2013 12:15
Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 
I have the question regarding the rules and the animation.

During the animation, they show a robot scooting under the bars, being at level 0 - the ground, grabbing the second level then lift up and touching the first level.

This either violates the rule about skipping a level or if there is some sort of contact with level one prior to touching level 3, it violates touching more than 2 levels at a time.

Am I wrong?

Thanks.

MetalJacket 06-01-2013 12:17
Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 
The game animations do not always agree with the rules. Although, I do believe that robot jumped up onto the first level before hooking onto the second.

BAM 06-01-2013 12:29
Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by scott1363 (Post 1208904)
I have the question regarding the rules and the animation.

During the animation, they show a robot scooting under the bars, being at level 0 - the ground, grabbing the second level then lift up and touching the first level.

This either violates the rule about skipping a level or if there is some sort of contact with level one prior to touching level 3, it violates touching more than 2 levels at a time.

Am I wrong?

Thanks.
Unfortunately yes. If you look closely you can see the robot perches itself on level one, and THEN uses hooks itself to level two.

TVwazhere 06-01-2013 12:51
Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 
Yeah. In the animation, it bounces before grabbing the second bar.... hence leaving level 0, being suspended momentarily on level one before grabbing level 2. I had that question originally but looking back on it it just barely avoids the penalty

Jimmyk 06-01-2013 13:00
Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 
What about some kind of arm to place a hook and then just use a winch to pull your robot up. Then some kind of secondary mechinism to hold the robot in place. Not sure how to get to the second and third levels, maybe springs to reset the arm if you disengage the ratchet

davidthefat 06-01-2013 13:12
Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TVwazhere (Post 1208936)
Yeah. In the animation, it bounces before grabbing the second bar.... hence leaving level 0, being suspended momentarily on level one before grabbing level 2. I had that question originally but looking back on it it just barely avoids the penalty
But the rule states that a legal climb is when the robot contacts the pyramid sequentially. The pyramid does not include the airspace, or you will never have a "legal climb". If the air space was considered part of the pyramid in that level, to get to suspended in the 1st level, your hook would intrude into the 2nd level air space. That would mean that it was not a legal climb because you are in 3 levels at one time (0, 1, 2). But that is the wrong interpretation. Airspace is not part of the pyramid of the corresponding level; but it is still part of the "level" when counting points. The pyramid is only the steel structure.


Quote:
A ROBOT has CLIMBED its PYRAMID if it contacts the PYRAMID in

sequential order (Level 0, 1, 2, 3) during ascent and
no more than two (2) Levels simultaneously.


If a CLIMB is considered unacceptable (e.g. a ROBOT has touched non-adjacent Levels or more than two (2) Levels at a time), a Referee will indicate a rejected CLIMB by turning the offending ROBOT’S PLAYER STATION LED strings yellow. The ROBOT will be ineligible for CLIMB points unless and until it begins a new CLIMB from the floor, Level 0.

Sean Raia 06-01-2013 13:24
Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimmyk (Post 1208948)
What about some kind of arm to place a hook and then just use a winch to pull your robot up. Then some kind of secondary mechinism to hold the robot in place. Not sure how to get to the second and third levels, maybe springs to reset the arm if you disengage the ratchet
See 2010 "Breakaway".

TVwazhere 06-01-2013 13:59
Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by davidthefat (Post 1208958)
But the rule states that a legal climb is when the robot contacts the pyramid sequentially. The pyramid does not include the airspace, or you will never have a "legal climb". If the air space was considered part of the pyramid in that level, to get to suspended in the 1st level, your hook would intrude into the 2nd level air space. That would mean that it was not a legal climb because you are in 3 levels at one time (0, 1, 2). But that is the wrong interpretation. Airspace is not part of the pyramid of the corresponding level; but it is still part of the "level" when counting points. The pyramid is only the steel structure.
That makes sense, Otherwise any robot thats over 60" tall near the pyramid would be in violation of that rule.... They really should clarify slightly more.

moogboy 06-01-2013 14:28
Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 
We've come up with a few designs already. One has a groove going through the whole underside of the robot and a pair of treads/belts/whatever on each side of the groove. There would be at least two sets of two grabbers/hooks/grappling devices, preferably parallel to one another at two different points along the belts. We would drive up to the corner of the pyramid, push the robot up the corner pole until the lifter can engage, and turn it on, hoisting the robot up off the ground and up the poles.

Another thought was to have (essentially) two of these, one at the front and one at the back of the robot: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y94Yhm1dhv0 Obviously it would be highly modified and adapted with better wheels and so on, but the idea would be that the first one would pull the robot up to the bottom of a level, then kind of disengage and retract, letting the second one push the robot up enough for the first to re-engage, which would let both be used to pull the robot up.

those two were based on climbing up the corners. We had one idea that would be based on climbing the horizontals. Basically, that one had three arms. One would grab the horizontal and pull the front of the robot up. Then the other two arms would grab onto that bar for stability while the third pulled the robot up to the next level and so on.

Hope that was of some help.

falconmaster 06-01-2013 14:35
Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by moogboy (Post 1209028)
We've come up with a few designs already. One has a groove going through the whole underside of the robot and a pair of treads/belts/whatever on each side of the groove. There would be at least two sets of two grabbers/hooks/grappling devices, preferably parallel to one another at two different points along the belts. We would drive up to the corner of the pyramid, push the robot up the corner pole until the lifter can engage, and turn it on, hoisting the robot up off the ground and up the poles.

Another thought was to have (essentially) two of these, one at the front and one at the back of the robot: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y94Yhm1dhv0 Obviously it would be highly modified and adapted with better wheels and so on, but the idea would be that the first one would pull the robot up to the bottom of a level, then kind of disengage and retract, letting the second one push the robot up enough for the first to re-engage, which would let both be used to pull the robot up.

those two were based on climbing up the corners. We had one idea that would be based on climbing the horizontals. Basically, that one had three arms. One would grab the horizontal and pull the front of the robot up. Then the other two arms would grab onto that bar for stability while the third pulled the robot up to the next level and so on.

Hope that was of some help.
I like your idea ,how would you keep the 120lb robot from rotating around the pole?

ttldomination 06-01-2013 14:38
Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by moogboy (Post 1209028)
We've come up with a few designs already. One has a groove going through the whole underside of the robot and a pair of treads/belts/whatever on each side of the groove. There would be at least two sets of two grabbers/hooks/grappling devices, preferably parallel to one another at two different points along the belts. We would drive up to the corner of the pyramid, push the robot up the corner pole until the lifter can engage, and turn it on, hoisting the robot up off the ground and up the poles.

Another thought was to have (essentially) two of these, one at the front and one at the back of the robot: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y94Yhm1dhv0 Obviously it would be highly modified and adapted with better wheels and so on, but the idea would be that the first one would pull the robot up to the bottom of a level, then kind of disengage and retract, letting the second one push the robot up enough for the first to re-engage, which would let both be used to pull the robot up.

those two were based on climbing up the corners. We had one idea that would be based on climbing the horizontals. Basically, that one had three arms. One would grab the horizontal and pull the front of the robot up. Then the other two arms would grab onto that bar for stability while the third pulled the robot up to the next level and so on.

Hope that was of some help.
When climbing the corners, how would you get over the tubing that's wrapped around the corners? You can't straight up.

- Sunny G.

falconmaster 06-01-2013 14:40
Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 
Funny when I type robot climbing monkey bars in You Tube, I get nothing....

I did find this though when I typed robot climbing pole
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0HEn-fWKcqc

davidthefat 06-01-2013 14:45
Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...fySkGA#t=67 s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OtP0BspnSjY
May be a similar principle might work. But that's just throwing any legality out the window.

AhAhPatel 06-01-2013 14:47
Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 
quick question, has anyone considered the pros and cons of climbing either inside or outside the pyramids? I mean obviously the size limits would come into effect if you were to climb inside, but there are more possibilities I think of getting up. Obviously this size limit wouldn't apply if you climb outside, but there are several problems, like the extra tubing at 30, 60 and 90 inches. I know in our team, we have debated this greatly, and still are split. anything you can add to this debate would be much appreciated. :)

AhAhPatel 06-01-2013 15:00
Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 
what do you mean by bike peddler design?

Sean Raia 06-01-2013 15:04
Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 
What if you climbed the edge and used the notches to your advantage?

You'd have to make sure there's a wide enough channel on the underside of your robot so that your components didn't get snagged on the notch, but I think it's feasible.


As for the climbing mechanism... two hooked pneumatic arms that can be rotated down onto the bars on either side of the corner of the pyramid may work.

These hooks could work in such a way that they would slide smoothly against the bars on the pyramid until they catch and hold the robot in place.

(you'd also want a really tight wheelbase)

moogboy 06-01-2013 15:08
Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by falconmaster (Post 1209037)
I like your idea ,how would you keep the 120lb robot from rotating around the pole?
We haven't quite gotten to that point yet (I assume you're talking about the horizontal climber), though I think the plan would be to work out the dimensions of the robot/arms such that either the robot would be supported (for a short second at least) by resting on the lower horizontal OR held very tightly in position (or at least a position where the balancing was manageable) until the third arm grabbed it. We had the same concerns and in part I was throwing it out here because I want to see if anyone else has ideas on how to fix that problem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ttldomination (Post 1209042)
When climbing the corners, how would you get over the tubing that's wrapped around the corners? You can't straight up.

- Sunny G.
We would be using the corners to grab onto, and in the first design at least we would be making our "groove" through the bottom such that the robot, riding on the belts that would be moving the grabbing piece(s), just slid right over the corners. Most likely upon further refinement we will add some kind of stabilizing mechanism there to be safe.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AhAhPatel (Post 1209058)
quick question, has anyone considered the pros and cons of climbing either inside or outside the pyramids? I mean obviously the size limits would come into effect if you were to climb inside, but there are more possibilities I think of getting up. Obviously this size limit wouldn't apply if you climb outside, but there are several problems, like the extra tubing at 30, 60 and 90 inches. I know in our team, we have debated this greatly, and still are split. anything you can add to this debate would be much appreciated. :)
My team briefly considered climbing up the inside. We chose against it first because the angle is hellacious to begin with, and getting into an inside climbing position would be very difficult. At the same time, it's an even bigger safety hazard for the robot if we climb up the inside. If ANYTHING fails from the inside, we have to assume that in the worst case scenario the robot falls off the pyramid and lands upside down, which would most likely destroy everything above the frame. The damage could be minimized, sure, but we decided that ultimately the risk was too much.

AhAhPatel 06-01-2013 15:25
Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by moogboy (Post 1209074)
We haven't quite gotten to that point yet (I assume you're talking about the horizontal climber), though I think the plan would be to work out the dimensions of the robot/arms such that either the robot would be supported (for a short second at least) by resting on the lower horizontal OR held very tightly in position (or at least a position where the balancing was manageable) until the third arm grabbed it. We had the same concerns and in part I was throwing it out here because I want to see if anyone else has ideas on how to fix that problem.



We would be using the corners to grab onto, and in the first design at least we would be making our "groove" through the bottom such that the robot, riding on the belts that would be moving the grabbing piece(s), just slid right over the corners. Most likely upon further refinement we will add some kind of stabilizing mechanism there to be safe.



My team briefly considered climbing up the inside. We chose against it first because the angle is hellacious to begin with, and getting into an inside climbing position would be very difficult. At the same time, it's an even bigger safety hazard for the robot if we climb up the inside. If ANYTHING fails from the inside, we have to assume that in the worst case scenario the robot falls off the pyramid and lands upside down, which would most likely destroy everything above the frame. The damage could be minimized, sure, but we decided that ultimately the risk was too much.
I see what you are saying, but your vision and our team's vision was different. I believe what you are thinking of is like a monkey climbing up on the inside, which yes, i agree would be rather dangerous. (correct me if i am wrong). however, our team was thinking of having some sort of pnumatic driven arm which would extend up and out at the second level and pull our robot up. that way if we could pull that off, the robot would still be in driving position, and if it did fall, it would (hopefully) fall straight back on the tires. I mean, regardless of how we go about climbing this pyramid, it is going to be risky business...

moogboy 06-01-2013 16:04
Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by AhAhPatel (Post 1209086)
I see what you are saying, but your vision and our team's vision was different. I believe what you are thinking of is like a monkey climbing up on the inside, which yes, i agree would be rather dangerous. (correct me if i am wrong). however, our team was thinking of having some sort of pnumatic driven arm which would extend up and out at the second level and pull our robot up. that way if we could pull that off, the robot would still be in driving position, and if it did fall, it would (hopefully) fall straight back on the tires. I mean, regardless of how we go about climbing this pyramid, it is going to be risky business...
I may be misreading what you write, but there are a couple of issues that I see. One, climbing has to be sequential and you can only touch two consecutive/contiguous levels at the same time. So you can touch 0 and 1, 1 and 2, 2 and 3, but not 0 and 2, which is (in my reading) what your team seems to be saying. Correct me if I'm wrong, absolutely, but yeah, it appears that you would be violating the rules by going directly to the second level.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Game Manual Page 28
A ROBOT has CLIMBED its PYRAMID if it contacts the PYRAMID in
A. sequential order (Level 0, 1, 2, 3) during ascent and B. no more than two (2) Levels simultaneously.
If a CLIMB is considered unacceptable (e.g. a ROBOT has touched non-adjacent Levels or more than two (2) Levels at a time), a Referee will indicate a rejected CLIMB by turning the offending ROBOT’S PLAYER STATION LED strings yellow. The ROBOT will be ineligible for CLIMB points unless and until it begins a new CLIMB from the floor, Level 0.
Additionally, it appears as though any sort of mechanism that would reach out and grab onto the pyramid levels from the inside to lift the robot up would occupy a more than 54" diameter circle. If the rules allowed the robot to touch any level in any order, that strategy might work, but 3.2.5.2 G23
Quote:
Originally Posted by Game Manual Page 34
A ROBOT’S horizontal dimensions may never exceed a 54 in. diameter vertical cylinder.
Please, be sure to correct me if I have misunderstood anything you have said.

Orion.DeYoe 06-01-2013 18:40
Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 
Based on the rules and some common sense (the GDC didn't seem to have any at the time they wrote the rules) I have to conclude that the bar (being in contact with the bar) at 30 in. is part of zone 1, the bar at 60 in. is part of zone 2, and the bar at 90 in. is part of zone 3.
The rules weren't very clear on the exact location of the three zones in relation to the three crossbars.

AhAhPatel 06-01-2013 18:41
Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 
Nope. you are completely right. I had misread the rules to say that a climb is considered invalid if you touch more than 2 at a time that aren't adjacent. (basically you could go from 0 to 2 as long as you don't touch 1). thank you for the clarification! Also, i see your point for horizontal, but i just thought about the vertical aspect, that is if we are touching the pyramid, we can extend vertically to 84". I guess we will have to rethink our approach. however, i thank you for your help!

DjMaddius 06-01-2013 18:42
Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Orion.DeYoe (Post 1209235)
Based on the rules and some common sense (the GDC didn't seem to have any at the time they wrote the rules) I have to conclude that the bar (being in contact with the bar) at 30 in. is part of zone 1, the bar at 60 in. is part of zone 2, and the bar at 90 in. is part of zone 3.
The rules weren't very clear on the exact location of the three zones in relation to the three crossbars.
Look at the picture in the rule book. The lines are ABOVE the bars for the location of zones. Make sure you are ABOVE the bar to get the points, not on it.

moogboy 06-01-2013 18:57
Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by AhAhPatel (Post 1209238)
Nope. you are completely right. I had misread the rules to say that a climb is considered invalid if you touch more than 2 at a time that aren't adjacent. (basically you could go from 0 to 2 as long as you don't touch 1). thank you for the clarification! Also, i see your point for horizontal, but i just thought about the vertical aspect, that is if we are touching the pyramid, we can extend vertically to 84". I guess we will have to rethink our approach. however, i thank you for your help!
Any time! I was thinking about how a robot that climbed in driving position like what you were saying would look and I think it would be visually awesome...GDC why must thou make it hard on us?

tickspe15 06-01-2013 19:11
Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 
Is there any rule against using electromagnets to grip the pyramid.

lorem3k 06-01-2013 19:12
Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 
Given how many people it seems are going to be focused on climbing this year, have any of you considered that you might have to deal with two other robots climbing the pyramid at the same time as you? Sending one robot seven and a half feet above the ground is a scary enough concept on its own, but when you put two more in the mix, it seems to become extremely risky and complicated. Can you say "three robot pile-up"?

Personally, I think the way to go for climbing strategy is to focus on having a strong disc scoring mechanism and shoot 3-pointers for the whole match, and then near the end, grab the pyramid near the bottom and just lift yourself a few inches off the ground for a cool 10 points.

CJ The Expert 06-01-2013 19:14
Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 
The idea we have been working on would be simple arms to grab onto the first set of bars and just lift our robot off of the ground. This means we can get an easy 10 points (unless our interpretation of the rules is skewed), keep the robot safe from large drops, and allow us more time on shooting and/or defending.

Basically, we're going for a simple climb for a few extra points so that we can spend less time on the problem of how to get high safely, and more on other aspects of the robot that may be useful.

AhAhPatel 06-01-2013 19:17
Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Orion.DeYoe (Post 1209235)
Based on the rules and some common sense (the GDC didn't seem to have any at the time they wrote the rules) I have to conclude that the bar (being in contact with the bar) at 30 in. is part of zone 1, the bar at 60 in. is part of zone 2, and the bar at 90 in. is part of zone 3.
The rules weren't very clear on the exact location of the three zones in relation to the three crossbars.
It seems from my understanding that the hanging points are given based on where the bottom of your robot is. so: if you hang from the 30" bar and your robot is .5" above the floor (level 0), then you get 10 points. so, if you hang from the second bar, as long as your robot is over the first bar, you are counted in the 20 point zone. basically I think it goes like this: 1st bar to above the floor: 1st zone or 10 points. 2nd bar to above the 1st bar is the 20 point zone. and 3rd bar to above the second bar is the 30 point zone. hope that made sense

Djur 06-01-2013 19:19
Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tickspe15 (Post 1209258)
Is there any rule against using electromagnets to grip the pyramid.
No rules about magnets.

Seeing as the robot is unpowered when it's taken down, electromagnets would make the robot fall off. Not to mention that electromagnets strong enough to hold (much less pull) a robot to the pyramid would suck tons of power.

DjMaddius 06-01-2013 19:21
Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by lorem3k (Post 1209259)
Given how many people it seems are going to be focused on climbing this year, have any of you considered that you might have to deal with two other robots climbing the pyramid at the same time as you? Sending one robot seven and a half feet above the ground is a scary enough concept on its own, but when you put two more in the mix, it seems to become extremely risky and complicated. Can you say "three robot pile-up"?

Personally, I think the way to go for climbing strategy is to focus on having a strong disc scoring mechanism and shoot 3-pointers for the whole match, and then near the end, grab the pyramid near the bottom and just lift yourself a few inches off the ground for a cool 10 points.
There are 4 corners to the pyramid, plenty of space to fit all 3 of us on it! ;)

ablahblah 06-01-2013 19:42
Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 
Do you have to be in contact with the pyramid at ALL times? I'm confused about the rule just saying that it has to contact all levels in order.

MetalJacket 06-01-2013 19:47
Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 
There's nothing that states you must maintain contact, just that for a climb to count, you must touch the pyramid in each zone leading up to your highest in sequential order without touching more than two at once. [SARCASM] If you want to build a robot that flies to the top and just touches each rung on the way up, that should be totaly legal. [/SARCASM]

gabrielau23 06-01-2013 19:47
Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 
6 robots racing for 4 sides of the pyramid will be pretty cool at the end, especially in elimination matches. Do you leave your best shooter (but best climber) on the field to continue to score frisbees? Or do you have your two best climbers go for the pyramid yet have your "worst" bot continue shooting? sigh................
I asked about 3 engineers today, and they all said what we're doing right now in 6 weeks is pretty hard...and VERY challenging.

lorem3k 06-01-2013 19:50
Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by gabrielau23 (Post 1209297)
6 robots racing for 4 sides of the pyramid will be pretty cool at the end, especially in elimination matches. Do you leave your best shooter (but best climber) on the field to continue to score frisbees? Or do you have your two best climbers go for the pyramid yet have your "worst" bot continue shooting? sigh................
I asked about 3 engineers today, and they all said what we're doing right now in 6 weeks is pretty hard...and VERY challenging.
6 robots would race for 8 sides worth of pyramid, not 4.

gabrielau23 06-01-2013 19:58
Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by lorem3k (Post 1209299)
6 robots would race for 8 sides worth of pyramid, not 4.
8 sides? You mean that robots will also be climbing from the inside of the pyramid? Pardonez-moi, mais je sais (Pardon me, but I think) that it would be far too risky for teams to attempt to climb the same rungs simultaneously.

MetalJacket 06-01-2013 20:00
Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 
He was referring to the fact that each alliance has its own 4-sided pyramid ... 2*4 sides = 8 total sides

gabrielau23 06-01-2013 20:09
Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MetalJacket (Post 1209309)
He was referring to the fact that each alliance has its own 4-sided pyramid ... 2*4 sides = 8 total sides
Ahhh my b.....lol I brainfarted and locked on to just our alliance's pyramid....didn't account for the other pyramid.

MetalJacket 06-01-2013 20:13
Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 
That's fine, I've had several "duh"-moments when it comes to forgetting simple stuff like that so far.

mrnoble 06-01-2013 20:23
Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 
How's the brainstorming coming along? The complexity of this task is proving to be a stumper so far, it seems. I wonder if we'll see any dedicated climbers with no other abilities. Is there any precedent in FIRST for non-wheeled bots?

Djur 06-01-2013 20:28
Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrnoble (Post 1209325)
How's the brainstorming coming along? The complexity of this task is proving to be a stumper so far, it seems. I wonder if we'll see any dedicated climbers with no other abilities. Is there any precedent in FIRST for non-wheeled bots?
There was one robot several years ago that had a walking/crawling mechanism for defense.

gabrielau23 06-01-2013 20:28
Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrnoble (Post 1209325)
How's the brainstorming coming along? The complexity of this task is proving to be a stumper so far, it seems. I wonder if we'll see any dedicated climbers with no other abilities. Is there any precedent in FIRST for non-wheeled bots?
Haha I don't think we'll see any like that. The maximum score for the robots if you scored every single frisbee on the field was 400+. If your alliance scored 200 points, you would only have scored 15% of the total score. I know alliances are rarely that balanced when it comes to scoring, but let's say you "only" score 100 points you still don't make up 1/3 of the alliance points.

moogboy 06-01-2013 20:28
Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrnoble (Post 1209325)
How's the brainstorming coming along? The complexity of this task is proving to be a stumper so far, it seems. I wonder if we'll see any dedicated climbers with no other abilities. Is there any precedent in FIRST for non-wheeled bots?
One of our mentors came up with a non-wheeled design. a 50 pound, 16x16x16 cube that would do nothing except climb to the third level. Really, you wouldn't even need drivers. Someone could take that idea of a non-wheeled robot and ask really nicely for other robots to give them the alliance colored frisbees and have a really simple dumping mechanism to get another 20 points.

MetalJacket 06-01-2013 20:29
Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 
One idea, assuming you can work with the size constraints involved, is to drive under the pyramid and using a bot that has some kind of tower tilted to the angle of the side rails, latch on to the side rail using three actuated hooks and have powered wheels on the inside of the rail to ride up. As you reached the part where the rungs mee the rail, you could just actuate on hook at a time to get over it. ... Maybe?

gabrielau23 06-01-2013 20:30
Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by moogboy (Post 1209334)
One of our mentors came up with a non-wheeled design. a 50 pound, 16x16x16 cube that would do nothing except climb to the third level. Really, you wouldn't even need drivers. Someone could take that idea of a non-wheeled robot and ask really nicely for other robots to give them the alliance colored frisbees and have a really simple dumping mechanism to get another 20 points.
That's true though. However, you'd better wait until after autonomous to do that. Just let your drivers press a button. Ta-da! But your robot is not pre-loaded with colored discs, so you'd have to find a way to put the colored discs inside your robot.

moogboy 06-01-2013 20:33
Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by gabrielau23 (Post 1209336)
That's true though. However, you'd better wait until after autonomous to do that. Just let your drivers press a button. Ta-da! But your robot is not pre-loaded with colored discs, so you'd have to find a way to put the colored discs inside your robot.
The entire driver's station could just be a huge button, and both drivers could make a show of slamming it in the most epic fashion imaginable. I would select them for an alliance partner if I were a high enough seed.

pmangels17 06-01-2013 20:39
Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 
We were considering having an inchworm type climber on the corner pole, with a rack and pinion on a worm drive, with something to kick your robot out and over the knuckles. However, the issue is that you cannot contact anywhere in zone two until you are off the floor, which is zone zero, since you can only contact two zones at a time.

IN regards to the controls, we could have two BIG red buttons (out of arms reach from each other, and with flip covers to prevent accidental activation) with glowing lights, and when the robot begins its climb (which we will automate for the purpose of time, this is an actual plan, since manual operation of the climber will be difficult), we could have a light show on the robot, just for fun.

moogboy 06-01-2013 20:41
Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pmangels17 (Post 1209351)
IN regards to the controls, we could have two BIG red buttons (out of arms reach from each other, and with flip covers to prevent accidental activation) with glowing lights, and when the robot begins its climb (which we will automate for the purpose of time, this is an actual plan, since manual operation of the climber will be difficult), we could have a light show on the robot, just for fun.
Better yet, have your drive team press those buttons and (providing the robot shimmies up the pole at a predictable rate) then drop to the floor and stand up with the robot.

mrnoble 06-01-2013 20:42
Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 
"Haha I don't think we'll see any like that. The maximum score for the robots if you scored every single frisbee on the field was 400+. If your alliance scored 200 points, you would only have scored 15% of the total score. I know alliances are rarely that balanced when it comes to scoring, but let's say you "only" score 100 points you still don't make up 1/3 of the alliance points."

I wouldn't be shocked to see awesome scores like 200+ in the championship, and in some of the powerhouse regionals, but in run-of-the-mill seeding rounds at your average regional, a reliable 30 just might win matches.

pmangels17 06-01-2013 20:47
Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrnoble (Post 1209355)
"Haha I don't think we'll see any like that. The maximum score for the robots if you scored every single frisbee on the field was 400+. If your alliance scored 200 points, you would only have scored 15% of the total score. I know alliances are rarely that balanced when it comes to scoring, but let's say you "only" score 100 points you still don't make up 1/3 of the alliance points."

I wouldn't be shocked to see awesome scores like 200+ in the championship, and in some of the powerhouse regionals, but in run-of-the-mill seeding rounds at your average regional, a reliable 30 just might win matches.
Yes, but before we get sidetracked, this thread is, not to be rude, to discuss climbing ideas.

mrnoble 06-01-2013 20:47
Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 
In Overdrive, 2008, Denver, one of the top three teams was a minibot that did nothing but drive in a circle, fast, and avoid the traffic.

MetalJacket 06-01-2013 20:48
Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrnoble (Post 1209359)
In Overdrive, 2008, Denver, one of the top three teams was a minibot that did nothing but drive in a circle, fast, and avoid the traffic.
One of the robots that won championships did just that. Is that an analogy to focusing on climbing alone?

mrnoble 06-01-2013 20:50
Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 
I certainly am interested in climbing ideas. Part of my thinking is that, by making a dedicated climber, you would eliminate the weight and awkward size and shape of a wheeled base, allowing more design freedom.

Chris Fultz 06-01-2013 20:51
Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tickspe15 (Post 1209258)
Is there any rule against using electromagnets to grip the pyramid.
I believe the pyramid is aluminum.

MetalJacket 06-01-2013 20:52
Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 
Nope, powder coated steel
Quote:
PYRAMID: The Red or Blue steel structure on which ROBOTS CLIMB for points

$wimmer3138 06-01-2013 20:59
Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MetalJacket (Post 1209369)
Nope, powder coated steel
Do you or any one else know what kind of powder coat it is? I have heard that depending on how it's done the powder coat could make the steel either slick or gritty.

dheerm 06-01-2013 21:04
Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 
I personally don't agree with having a climbing only robot. It seems that in order to be a top 8 team or be picked by one, a versatile robot is necessary. Now back to climbing ideas: What if your robot is triangular and between 30" and 60" tall. What one could do is plant robot near the pyramid, use pistons to push it back so that the robot lays on the "side" of the pyramid, and then a conveyor belt with hooks on it can pull the robot up the diagonal side of the pyramid without touching the corners and still being legal. I hope whatever I just said makes sense.

gabrielau23 06-01-2013 21:09
Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 
I think somebody told me there was a small robot like that in Breakaway as well. Just zip around and block goals. However, Breakaway was a lot more low scoring and I anticipate that this game will be much more high scoring. Especially since we get to play teams like Jester, Vulcan, and Robobees. I don't know if MOE and Miss Daisy will be doing Chesapeake or DC this year, but I know they used to do them. If so........

pmangels17 06-01-2013 21:12
Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 
Anyway, we also came up with the idea of approaching the diagonal from the inside, clamping around, and driving up with wheels, similar to the big, slow, Tetrix minibots.

MetalJacket 06-01-2013 21:13
Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 
Did you think of a better way to get around the joints than the 3 actuated hooks we thought up?

escime 06-01-2013 21:18
Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 
Responding to dheerm here. Maybe I am missing something with this climber idea. But when you start the climb and leave the ground you cannot be touching that second horizontal rung. So doesn't your robot just swing outwards and become vertical again? We've been toying with ideas along this line for two days and cannot see how to reliably keep the bot from kicking back out vertical once you leave the ground (and therefore touch the ground again - which prevents you from grabbing that second rung).

pmangels17 06-01-2013 21:19
Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 
with the inchworm idea, you have two separate but identical grabbers at the bottom of the robot, that the robot can sit back on and hang while the puling arm repositions itself. when the upper grabber hits the knuckle, it retracts, and the robot rests on the lower grabber. Then, when the lower grabber hits the knuckle, the upper one comes back, and the lower one retracts. We also "sit" on these, similar to the way the sliding, pump handle clamps prevent from opening, while the raising arm repositions itself.

moogboy 06-01-2013 21:20
Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MetalJacket (Post 1209396)
Did you think of a better way to get around the joints than the 3 actuated hooks we thought up?
I'm thinking that a groove down the center of the robot with a belt on each side with floating sprockets at the front and back will be a good way of keeping the robot close to the pole. I've detailed elsewhere in this thread more of what would be on each belt, but a floating sprocket could be considerably helpful.

pmangels17 06-01-2013 21:21
Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 
Either style works. The best way to climb the outside is probably on the corners. However, you must prevent yourself from spinning around on the pole.

mrnoble 06-01-2013 21:28
Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 
What about using the rungs? A robot with two extendable arms and hooks, each on a rotating "shoulder" joint? Think monkey bars.

pmangels17 06-01-2013 21:29
Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 
We were thinking skis on the sides of the corner climber, that ride on the horizontals.

MetalJacket 06-01-2013 21:36
Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pmangels17 (Post 1209414)
We were thinking skis on the sides of the corner climber, that ride on the horizontals.
How would you hold the robot on as it's climbing?

ratdude747 06-01-2013 21:38
Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 
Here's an idea I happened to think of:

Use two vertical and sliding rails, the could be pivoted out at the same angle as the pyramid (either 68 degrees or 60 degrees). The ends of the rails would have a hook that was spring loaded and could collapse inward when pushed from the top, but hold rigid when pushed from below. Similar to rung lock mechanism on an extension ladder:




To start, one would drive to the pyramid, swing out the rails, and raise one rail so the hook would ratchet into the rail when it hit the rung, slide past, pop out, and grasp the rung. Then that rail would be retracted back, lifting the robot base. This process would be repeated for the second rail to reach the second rung, and then again with the first rail to reach the third rung.

A ratchet/anti-backdrive system would be in the drive for the rails, to reduce load on the motors and to keep the robot up when the match was over.

Just a thought I had. I haven't been on a robot design committee for a couple years but my mind still is in the "habit".

pmangels17 06-01-2013 21:40
Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 
You could use a ratchet system, or you could use a worm drive, which could be reversed if need be. That is what out design requires. Or helical gears.

Bill_B 06-01-2013 21:41
Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by moogboy (Post 1209334)
One of our mentors came up with a non-wheeled design. a 50 pound, 16x16x16 cube that would do nothing except climb to the third level. Really, you wouldn't even need drivers. Someone could take that idea of a non-wheeled robot and ask really nicely for other robots to give them the alliance colored frisbees and have a really simple dumping mechanism to get another 20 points.
Did he have a plan for attaching bumpers to it? I mean one that doesn't interfere with the climbing. Maybe once climbing has begun, the bumpers could be dangled from a cord.

moogboy 06-01-2013 21:50
Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill_B (Post 1209429)
Did he have a plan for attaching bumpers to it? I mean one that doesn't interfere with the climbing. Maybe once climbing has begun, the bumpers could be dangled from a cord.
To limit post size I won't go into all of the details again, but early on (like page one or two of this thread) I described it a little better and linked to a Youtube video that shows his inspiration. Essentially though he did not need to worry because all of the climbing mechanism was underneath the robot and the bumpers could be mounted above it.

cgmv123 06-01-2013 22:07
Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tickspe15 (Post 1209258)
Is there any rule against using electromagnets to grip the pyramid.
No, but I'd be concerned about
  1. Whether or not the battery has enough juice to sustain such a powerful enough magnet
  2. What such a powerful magnet would do to the electronics
  3. Whether inspectors would consider such a device to be safe

Not to mention that all outputs are disabled when the match ends and I think such a device is required to be controlled by the cRIO.

Cal578 06-01-2013 22:08
Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrnoble (Post 1209325)
... Is there any precedent in FIRST for non-wheeled bots?
Our team did tank treads for Breakaway (2010). Powerful, couldn't be pushed, and always went over the bumps. But not very fast.

dheerm 06-01-2013 22:29
Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by escime (Post 1209402)
Responding to dheerm here. Maybe I am missing something with this climber idea. But when you start the climb and leave the ground you cannot be touching that second horizontal rung. So doesn't your robot just swing outwards and become vertical again? We've been toying with ideas along this line for two days and cannot see how to reliably keep the bot from kicking back out vertical once you leave the ground (and therefore touch the ground again - which prevents you from grabbing that second rung).
I didn't think of that. Even if we used a top heavy robot, it would just keep spinning till it fell. Unless maybe this robot was designed so perfectly that the conveyor belt with hooks on it immediately grabbed the second rung the moment the robot was lifted off the ground then maybe it could work.

pfreivald 06-01-2013 22:51
Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cal578 (Post 1209452)
Our team did tank treads for Breakaway (2010). Powerful, couldn't be pushed, and always went over the bumps. But not very fast.
Treads aren't something I'd advise unless you've prototyped in the off-season.

mrnoble 06-01-2013 22:55
Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 
I can only think of two approaches that will work and meet the requirements of the rules (or at least their spirit, as I read them; QA will need to clarify some things on the 9th). Approach #1: a caterpillar, either outside or inside the corner. Approach #2: a human/ape approach, with at least two grasping and releasing appendages. You can't balance on two rungs, as you won't be able to touch three zones at a time.

brycen66 06-01-2013 23:08
Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cgmv123 (Post 1209450)
Not to mention that all outputs are disabled when the match ends and I think such a device is required to be controlled by the cRIO.
Would it be against the rules to use a spike relay, a NOT gate, and an additional relay on your electromagnet? I'm not saying that an electromagnet would be feasible, I'm just saying that your robot (if designed well) would not fall at the end of a match.

neaanopri 06-01-2013 23:44
Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 
I thought of a third approach.
If you had a hooked conveyor belt on a pivot in the body, which was on rails, you could lift yourself from the ground, tilt the pivot to grasp the second rung, then elevate yourself above the first rung and hang from the second. Repeat to hang from the third rung.

Here's a picture: http://imgur.com/w37qr

It would then repeat this to get up to the third ring.
Pros:- Doesn't take as many motors
- Robot does not have to be specifically designed to lift.
Cons:-Takes a long time
-Requires a functioning hooked conveyor that can lift the whole robot

jason701802 07-01-2013 00:32
Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tickspe15 (Post 1209258)
Is there any rule against using electromagnets to grip the pyramid.
Yes, by R32, electric solenoids may not exceed 10 watts. The rule refers to "electrical solenoid actuators", but R52 simply refers to "electric solenoids". Also, in previous years electromagnets have been lumped in with motors/electric actuators and I do not see that changing this year.

nathan_hui 07-01-2013 01:24
Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 
Yes, that would be illegal. You cannot have custom components between the MC and the motor/electrical actuators. The only thing that you could possibly put there is a cap as a filter. Also, the second relay would need power, which restricts the relay to be a spike. Additionally, the magnet probably would fail R32.

DampRobot 07-01-2013 01:35
Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 
Any teams had any luck prototyping "minibot climber" types? I'm talking about something that rides up the diagonals of the pyramids on wheels, hanging on somehow.

Joon Park 07-01-2013 02:37
Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pfreivald (Post 1209497)
Treads aren't something I'd advise unless you've prototyped in the off-season.
We've actually done tank treads for the past four years that we've gotten better at treads than wheels.

Adam.garcia 07-01-2013 03:38
Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DampRobot (Post 1209648)
Any teams had any luck prototyping "minibot climber" types? I'm talking about something that rides up the diagonals of the pyramids on wheels, hanging on somehow.
For this, I've been thinking of having an articulated 1717 2010-esque lifter that will be able to traverse the corners. Have a latching system on the top, and drive wheels at the bottom. By any chance, does anybody have close up pics of their latching mechanism from that year?

I see that they posted pics of their bot here: http://www.chiefdelphi.com/media/photos/35361
But the only pic that is broken is the one for the latching.

Paul Copioli 07-01-2013 05:59
Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by moogboy (Post 1209334)
One of our mentors came up with a non-wheeled design. a 50 pound, 16x16x16 cube that would do nothing except climb to the third level. Really, you wouldn't even need drivers. Someone could take that idea of a non-wheeled robot and ask really nicely for other robots to give them the alliance colored frisbees and have a really simple dumping mechanism to get another 20 points.
We would definitely pick this robot in the first round if it could get 30 points every match. If it could score in auton, that it is a no brainier.

At the risk of looking like an idiot like last year (thanks HOT), the 30 point hang will be able to be accomplished by less than 20 teams in all of FRC.
So if your robot can get 30 points from the hang, they are a keeper for a great partner to frisbee shooting robots.

Justin Montois 07-01-2013 06:22
Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Copioli (Post 1209684)
We would definitely pick this robot in the first round if it could get 30 points every match. If it could score in auton, that it is a no brainier.

At the risk of looking like an idiot like last year (thanks HOT), the 30 point hang will be able to be accomplished by less than 20 teams in all of FRC.
So if your robot can get 30 points from the hang, they are a keeper for a great partner to frisbee shooting robots.
If they can do that and a little more they might be picking you ;)

cmrnpizzo14 07-01-2013 07:39
Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cal578 (Post 1209452)
Our team did tank treads for Breakaway (2010). Powerful, couldn't be pushed, and always went over the bumps. But not very fast.
It was great for bending omniwheels too, let's not forget that
;)

Robo Hamsters 07-01-2013 08:25
Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 
Here is an interesting idea: http://youtu.be/zkpH1BjD6Wc

ToddF 07-01-2013 09:31
Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 
A little more towards the insane side of the spectrum...

I did a quick calculation comparing kinetic and potential energy. The numbers actually make this feasible.

Remember “Back to the Future”? If you put a 30 inch vertical hook on the back of your robot, and drove at full speed under the tower, the hook would catch on the lowest bar, and the robot would flip up high enough for you to catch the second bar. Then you release the lower bar hook and score 20 points. Unless the tower or the robot comes apart at impact…

You need a very fast robot and the starting height of the robot CG should be as high as possible. We think it would be ruled "unsafe" for competition, but it would be fun to prototype...

McGurky 07-01-2013 09:47
Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ToddF (Post 1209742)
Remember “Back to the Future”? If you put a 30 inch vertical hook on the back of your robot, and drove at full speed under the tower, the hook would catch on the lowest bar, and the robot would flip up high enough for you to catch the second bar. Then you release the lower bar hook and score 20 points. Unless the tower or the robot comes apart at impact…
That has come up, and It would be amazing to see. But I feel the "floor protector" would keep from that design from successfully working. Although I think you already came to that conclusion :)

dodar 07-01-2013 09:51
Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin Montois (Post 1209688)
If they can do that and a little more they might be picking you ;)
One does not simply pick 217. :cool:

J.Warsoff 07-01-2013 10:03
Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 
Take a look at our Breakaway robot, Weeble. Rather simple mechanism, grappling hook and winch.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/team1676/5199271926/

pfreivald 07-01-2013 10:17
Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dodar (Post 1209753)
One does not simply pick 217. :cool:
We did in 2010... :D

Rishabhgadi 07-01-2013 11:33
Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DampRobot (Post 1209648)
Any teams had any luck prototyping "minibot climber" types? I'm talking about something that rides up the diagonals of the pyramids on wheels, hanging on somehow.
That was my initial idea, but you would not reach past the first level because of the notches on the side which stick out about an inch.

pfreivald 07-01-2013 11:39
Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rishabhgadi (Post 1209804)
That was my initial idea, but you would not reach past the first level because of the notches on the side which stick out about an inch.
Specifically, the knuckle sticks out quite far on the front, and the gusset extends in the back of the pole, too.

amesmich 07-01-2013 12:23
Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 
I dont think I read anythign pertaining to this but before a climb could a bot disconnect its drive system and essentially leave it behind to reduce weight and size? Obviously the rio, battery, and control would climb but the drive train abandoned? The whole thing woudl be designed as a quick disconnect.

nathan_hui 07-01-2013 12:24
Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 
No
The robot cannot intentionally leave parts behind. G13

amesmich 07-01-2013 12:46
Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 
Dam I missed that. I wasnt just posting for an answer.

Ryan Caldwell 07-01-2013 12:50
Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Copioli (Post 1209684)
At the risk of looking like an idiot like last year (thanks HOT), the 30 point hang will be able to be accomplished by less than 20 teams in all of FRC.
So if your robot can get 30 points from the hang, they are a keeper for a great partner to frisbee shooting robots.
I like the idea of a "Loch Ness Monster challenge" being thrown down each year.

Marc S. 07-01-2013 13:03
Re: Climbing Mechanism Ideas
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam.garcia (Post 1209677)
For this, I've been thinking of having an articulated 1717 2010-esque lifter that will be able to traverse the corners. Have a latching system on the top, and drive wheels at the bottom. By any chance, does anybody have close up pics of their latching mechanism from that year?

I see that they posted pics of their bot here: http://www.chiefdelphi.com/media/photos/35361
But the only pic that is broken is the one for the latching.
1717 Used a gas spring to lift themselves up. This was an excellent idea because even if they grabbed the tower at the last second, the robot would still go up the tower even after the robot was disabled. That mechanism wouldn't work this year as it reacted against the top surface of the tunnel.


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 19:41.
Page 1 of 3 1 23 >
Show 100 post(s) from this thread on one page

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © Chief Delphi