My Hopper/Dumper Idea
 

http://home.scriptprodigy.org/images...per_dumper.jpg

Its an idea inspired from robotin3days.com 's hopper design. My team is focusing on climbing and getting 4 colored in the top once climbed. So no shooting needed, only dumping in the top and dumping possibly in the 19in high score during auton. This will gain us 56 points consistently if we get climbing working 100%. Ideas / thoughts?


EDIT:: Changed image to url because it stretched the page, just click the link!

Re: My Hopper/Dumper Idea
 

During brainstorming our team had the same idea, and I like the conveyor and belt idea to dump the colored discs in. The difficult part is designing a climbing system to actually make it to the top within the new size restraints.
If you go with it, good luck! I think it would be quite a sight to see something like this happening

Re: My Hopper/Dumper Idea
 

Yea, we're focusing on climbing above all right now. This was just a quick idea I had while watching the robot in 3 days stream. I think a lot of people will have a similar idea but won't go with it because they are shooting. We aren't trying to do everything this year, changing our game plan up as our previous one wasn't working. Haven't been to states in a few years sadly. Very close every year, and with this design I think we'll make it if we can climb and dump 8/10 times.

Re: My Hopper/Dumper Idea
 

This would be a great strategy, and you'd pretty much guarantee doing well at competitions. You'll also impress judges considering how hard it is to get to the 3rd level of the pyramid.

Re: My Hopper/Dumper Idea
 

The Robot in 3 days videos are awesome! I'm glad someone is doing the rapid prototyping early on...hopefully it will give us an idea sometime this week what works regarding the shooter. We had issues last year prototyping wayyyyy too long.
And for some teams (like ours and it sounds like yours), there are limits to how much you can do in 6 weeks. Some teams out there will get the shooting and climbing to level three down, but for us we have to decide what combination to go with in order to be successful. The climbing and dumping is an option for us, along with a good shooter and climbing level one. With the space decrease this year it would be a huge design problem to get both done.

Re: My Hopper/Dumper Idea
 

I agree that we'll do fairly well if we can climb! Just, have to still figure that out. All we know right now is we want to go up the corners so we have 3 points of contact with the pyramid at all times ridding us of swinging as well as making it easy to go in sequential order.


Yea, I love what they're doing, check out their live stream!
http://www.robotin3days.com/livestream/

Re: My Hopper/Dumper Idea
 

This is an excellent strategy; Our team had the same idea. However, I fear that there will be many teams with the same strategy, (great minds think alike!), so much that you'll see a few robots on the playing field just sitting on the tower for half the match. Think about it: The match is 2 minutes and 15 seconds long. You guaranteed your team 50 points, and if a robot on the opposing team can accurately score frisbees into the 3pt goal, they have to score 16 frisbees in the 3pt goal. You can hold up to 4 frisbees. So, they'd have to be able to score 1 frisbee in the 3pt goal per 8 seconds. A robot that can shoot at an accurate and massive speed can outclass a climbing robot, and if it has a climbing mechanism in it as well...
I would suggest at least having it play able to play defense against really offensive robots before going up the pyramid. (Although sitting back and drinking ice tea while looking at your beautiful robot is also enjoyable) It's definitely really impressive, and, as Marc says, you're guaranteed to do well.
A robot in 3 days... I can't imagine it.

Re: My Hopper/Dumper Idea
 

Well, once we determine how long it takes to climb we plan to play the 1 ptn hole as long as possible to gain points. We're using super shifters with a 6 wheel drive to ensure our ability to push our way around the field. So we will score 56 for sure, 30 for climbing, 20 for 4 in the top, 6 for 3 in auton. Then beyond that I'm thinking maybe 8 more. Which is two runs of four. If we get good at running single points we can maybe double that. Making a total of 72 points all on our own. We may be fighting for time to feed our robot vs other teams on our alliance though. But with both sides being able to deliver I'm not sure. This years game is a LOT of fun. I like it a lot more than previous years games I've played.

EDIT::
Maybe I just like it because I feel confident in what we are doing this year but eh, just a gut feeling!

Re: My Hopper/Dumper Idea
 

My team had discussions about the 1 pt. goal and one question came up and stopped us dead in our tracks: How valuable is a robot that can score 1 pt. per frisbee to teams that can score three's and two's all day, especially in light of the limited number of frisbees on the field? Assuming that your alliance partners are killer shooters, they would be able to make up for a bunch of 1 pointers pretty quickly. Basically we figured that being able to score 1's would be fine and all but may not be the best thing in terms of alliance selection.

I do like the climb to level three and dump idea though. It's a great idea actually and one I wish my team had spent more time on.

Re: My Hopper/Dumper Idea
 

Well I figured scoring 1ptns is better than just sitting on the pyramid the whole match since we aren't attempting to actually shoot the frisbees right now, and just dump them. However we could end up going with more of a shooter, this was just an idea we've had.

Re: My Hopper/Dumper Idea
 

It certainly is a great idea--I'm not putting it down. But, if you have some shooters on your team that can consistently do the 3pt/2pt goal, why not play a bit of defense and deny the opposing team's killer shooter's points? As moogboy said, there is only a limited number of frisbees on the playing field. If you have two other robots who are insane shooters and you run out of frisbees on the field, the frisbees you had put in the 1pt goal could have potentially be put in the 2pt/3pt goal by your alliance member. Just a thought.

Re: My Hopper/Dumper Idea
 

Yea, I feel you. With out drive we definitely can play defensive. Just have to be careful about hitting the opponents when they are getting on their pyramid and such. Could cost quite a bit of points.

Re: My Hopper/Dumper Idea
 

Technical fouls certainly can change the tides in a match. If you go ahead and build a defensive bot, be sure to make your drivers' study those penalties!

Re: My Hopper/Dumper Idea
 

While I think this is a pretty cool strategy, you only have 2 minutes teleop, last 30 seconds for climbing, but since you are revolved around that you'd probably have that set. 8/10 climbs would mean you are making a fresh climb every 20 seconds, giving you about a little under 10 seconds to get up the pyramid and back down, at which point you would start immediately again. Maybe i am missing something, but this seems a bit far-fetched, because you would still have to be getting frisbees between repelling and starting a new climb.

Re: My Hopper/Dumper Idea
 

I've been one of the drivers every year since I've started and heck yea. Penalties always manage to change the pace of the game and may very well decide the winner several times over. I always do a complete read of the rule book and a double of everything I'm involved in such as programming, controls, and driving.

Re: My Hopper/Dumper Idea
 

Yeah, I was a driver at our last competition for Rebound Rumble. (CalGames). We lost one of our matches simply because we got a foul for touching their bridge, because our alliance robot bumped into us on accident... Oops!

Re: My Hopper/Dumper Idea
 

There may be a rule clarification that impacts this strategy. The manual states that the human players can begin throwing discs when there is 30 seconds left(G35). The animation states that near the end of the match the human players begin throwing the discs over the wall and the robots head to the pyramids to begin their climb.

Re: My Hopper/Dumper Idea
 

Ah, well it isn't specified as the 'end game' in the manual. Only as climbing, so I hope they don't change it to the last 30 seconds. It will be VERY difficult to get the level 3 in that time I believe.

Re: My Hopper/Dumper Idea
 

I think your idea is a great one. Here in Michigan you have to be good at something and very good at it to get picked for an alliance. I am a mentor on team 2611 and we were at Wayne State with you guys last year. Teams our size have a tough time at it because if we try to do to much we won't be very good at anything. And then we get left behind. We are considering the same strategy that you mentioned in your first post. Get the 50 points and do it consistently...

Re: My Hopper/Dumper Idea
 

After last year's competitions, I have serious doubts about teams making tons of consistent 3 point shots. If your robot can climb quickly up and down (call it 20 seconds each way for instance) as well as dump into the pyramid top bin and the lowest scoring hole it could look something like this:

Dump two discs in the lowest hole during autonomous, go back and reload with 4 colored discs. Climb the pyramid and dump those discs. Climb back down and hand reload with 4 white discs. Drive to the other side, dump those white discs. Drive back and hand reload the last two colored discs and climb the pyramid and dump them. Match ends. That adds up like this:

6 points (auto from behind the line)
20 points (4 colored)
4 points (4 white)
10 points (2 colored)
30 points (pyramid at the end)

That's a total of 70 points and seems like a reasonable amount of time for each task assuming you have a good climbing mechanism. Even if you have to let other robots in your alliance handle the colored discs, making three runs down field for 12 pts + the 30 pt climb and the 6 pt auto makes for 48 points scored by a single robot.

This would make for a very solid robot that had only three subsystems - drive, dump, and climb. No need to pick discs from the ground and flip them over if needed. No need to have a power-hungry and physically large shooter. In fact, this design could make for a quite small and light robot; which in turn makes climbing easier.

Anyways, just food for thought.

-Mike

Re: My Hopper/Dumper Idea
 

Glad to see a near by team impressed with our ideas! It is VERY difficult in Michigan with all the regionals and states plus all the powerhouse teams for the smaller teams to make it big but I think we can do it this year if we can climb for 30 points and dump 20 in every time.

Exactly what I was thinking! You can pull a LOT of points without a lot of weight this year if you design it correctly and don't even worry about how frisbees fly. Take that issue straight out of the game and you loose the 2ptn and 3ptn but you're very light and can climb easier.

Re: My Hopper/Dumper Idea
 

Last year used inconsistent foam. This meant that no 2 basketballs were exactly alike. Frisbees are hard, only weights are variable, and 5 grams my seem like a lot, but if you build bot that shoots an average weighted frisbee, lighter ones will hang a little longer, heavier might dip a little faster, but I am certain that 5 grams wont make as big of a difference as inconsistent foam density did with the basketballs. I would even go as far to say you cant judge this game off last year's, because the game pieces are so different. Last year's relied on compression, weight, speed, angle, even foam chunked out of the pieces, this year seems a little simpler in my opinion, frisbees equal weight, spin, and angle speed, they are hard - takes out inconsistancy of messed up pieces. Just saying i think it is entirely possible for consistent 3's. And a little compared to your scoring, it might look like this
16 points shot into high goal (Auto behind line)
12 Points for 4 shots into high goal (do this 4 or 5 times, so about once per 15 seconds, all you have to do is load 4, rapid fire and repeat)
10-30 points for hanging
Once perfected, this strategy could and probably will make anywhere from 74 (worst case scenario) to at least 106 points a bot (awesome scenario) and these scores don't even include shooting onto top of pyramid.

Re: My Hopper/Dumper Idea
 

After seeing some of the shooters people are playing with this year, I do believe that there will be some solid shooters in general. I don't think 100%, but reasonably consistent is feasible.

I think your 16-20 3pt shots is a bit optimistic though. Let's assume you need only 15 seconds to get whatever climbing score you can make. That means starting 3/4 of the way down the field, race back to your filling station, fill 4 discs, race back to the other side of the field, aim, and fire four perfect shots consistently in 21 to ~27 seconds. To get 20 shots in 105 seconds means 5.25 seconds/shot and hitting all of them.

Personally, I believe really good shooters will likely preclude the ability to be really good climbers though that's certainly a guess. I think a more realistic scenario would be this:

0:15 - 16 pts auto
0:55 - 12 pts shot
1:30 - 12 pts shot
1:55 - 12 pts shot
2:15 - 10 pts hanging, match over
62 pts total. That's assuming 15 perfect shots and the ability to hang on the first rung reasonably quickly.

Being pessimistic on my scenario would look like this:

0:15 - 4 pts auto
1:15 - 20 points (4 colored - assuming a slow 45 second climb/descent)
2:10 - 10 points (2 colored)
2:15 - 30 points (pyramid at the end)
64 pts total. Any speed improvements in the climb/descent will translate into the ability to dump discs into the 1pt target.

I believe there will be amazing shooting robots that can nail those shots but I also feel that a small, fast climber with simple dumper can really hold it's own this year while being a simpler robot all around.

-Mike

Re: My Hopper/Dumper Idea
 

I've been struggling with this all day for clarification. As you say the rules are very vague, however, I just replayed the animation, and 2:15 they mention the that

"near the end of the match human players can throw discs onto the field and try to score. At the same time, robots drive to their pyramids and start to climb for bonus points"

The rules do spell out in 3.2.7.2 G35 that

"Discs may be fed onto the feild only under the following circumstances:

A. During TELEOP through the feeder slots and
B. during the last thirty (30) seconds of TELEOP over the FEEDER
STATIONS."

I would infer from this that this is the "same time" that they mention in the animation, and therefore the climbing period would be during the last 30 seconds. It would be nice if they provided a little more detail on the climbing.

I suspect we'll see some clarification on this soon.

Re: My Hopper/Dumper Idea
 

3.1.1 MATCH Setup
Before the start of each MATCH, the ARENA is populated with 118 White DISCS, 6 Red DISCS, and 6 Blue DISCS. DISCS are staged as follows:

No more than two (2) or three (3) White DISCS may be preloaded in each ROBOT by the TEAM, depending on the ROBOT’S starting position (see G06 for details).
At least ten (10) White DISCS are staged on the FIELD approximately as illustrated in Figure 3-1.
Two (2) DISCS are centered between the GUARDRAILS and 78 in. from the Blue ALLIANCE WALL to the center of the DISC.
Two (2) DISCS are centered under the Blue PYRAMID.
At least two (2) DISCS are placed centrally between the GUARDRAILS and along the field CENTER LINE.
Any DISCS not preloaded in ROBOTS per part Aabove (e.g. the ROBOT is preloaded with fewer than three (3) DISCS, the ROBOT isn’t in the MATCH, etc.) are placed adjacent to the DISCS on the CENTER LINE. The non-preloaded DISCS are added to each side of the existing pair such that the group of DISCS on the CENTER LINE is centered. If there is an odd number of DISCS staged on the CENTER LINE, the extra DISC will be placed on the scoring table side of the group.
Two (2) DISCS are centered under the Red PYRAMID.
Two (2) DISCS are centered between the GUARDRAILS and 78 in. from the Red ALLIANCE WALL to the center of the DISC.
6 Red & 45 White DISCS are located in the Red ALLIANCE STATION.
6 Blue & 45 White DISCS are located in the Blue ALLIANCE STATION.
ALSO...
3.1.5.1 DISC Points
Additionally, for a DISC to be considered SCORED in an ALLIANCE’S PYRAMID GOAL, it must correspond to the PYRAMID color. This means that white discs cant even be scored in the pyramid goal, so only 60 points can be gotten by a climber bot, solely off climbing = 30 for 6 colored discs (5pts each) and 30 climbing points.
Sorry to crush the dreams of climbing fans, but i hope this helps. you will probably be outscored by shooters.

Re: My Hopper/Dumper Idea
 

I do however encourage this strategy, i think it will going back to previous comments be unique, and a wanted robot, good on a alliance with shooters, bad on a alliance with other climbers.

Re: My Hopper/Dumper Idea
 

Yea, and it seems a LOT of teams are making some pretty decent shooters, or at least have prototyped for them. As usual its luck of the draw with alliances until you can choose. I believe with 2 teams that can pull 10 ptn hangs and us with 50 points we can win nearly every match with that 70 points total. We'll surely do pretty good if not win 7/10 matches! Just guessing from the point totals though. We all know how different it ends up being.

Re: My Hopper/Dumper Idea
 

Yeah, good luck and may the FIRST? be with you.

Re: My Hopper/Dumper Idea
 

A problem withjust climbing the pyramid is that I think only the colored diskscan go in the pyramids. Plus if you fall at all from the top... your robot is DOOMED :eek: .

Re: My Hopper/Dumper Idea
 

Yea, we know of the issues. We're tossing a few designs around still. Brainstorming this year is lasting a bit longer than normal. We need to be VERY safe, and there are a lot of rules. Its a lot more difficult than we thought but hey, it is FRC right? haha, and yea only colored can go in. No issue, we only plan to go up once so we'll take 4 colored up with us.

Re: My Hopper/Dumper Idea
 

I've been struggling with this all day for clarification. As you say the rules are very vague, however, I just replayed the animation, and 2:15 they mention the that

"near the end of the match human players can throw discs onto the field and try to score. At the same time, robots drive to their pyramids and start to climb for bonus points"

The rules do spell out in 3.2.7.2 G35 that

"Discs may be fed onto the feild only under the following circumstances:

A. During TELEOP through the feeder slots and
B. during the last thirty (30) seconds of TELEOP over the FEEDER
STATIONS."

I would infer from this that this is the "same time" that they mention in the animation, and therefore the climbing period would be during the last 30 seconds. It would be nice if they provided a little more detail on the climbing.

I suspect we'll see some clarification on this soon.

Re: My Hopper/Dumper Idea
 

I agree, I think we will see some clarification. Though the rules as of right now don't say a thing about climbing being specifically the end game. And we all know how often the animation breaks game rules.