Very New and Very Clueless!
 

Hello everyone!

This is my first year in FIRST and I'm looking forward to learning what its about this season:]

In my FRC team (of about 15 people) I am one of only two people interested in programming...and our head programmer is a rookie too. our veteran programmer graduated last year and failed to teach him anything about LabVIEW...so we're pretty clueless.

Our current head programmer has previous programming experience so we're not completely lost...but we're pretty close:/

While the head programmer is focusing on learning LabVIEW, I'm trying to teach myself C++ (I have had ZERO previous programming experience before day after the start of the season...). However, once I grasp C++ I will try to learn LabVIEW as well.
I'm pretty good at teaching myself things so I hope it won't be too hard!

I was wondering if anyone had any pointers about how to go about learning C++ and LabVIEW without any previous experience or anything that might help a beginning programmer

Thank you so much!!

Re: Very New and Very Clueless!
 

Re: Very New and Very Clueless!
 

I would suggest LABview, it seems easer. Take this with a grain of salt we are a rookie team too.

Re: Very New and Very Clueless!
 

Thanks for the links!:)

Re: Very New and Very Clueless!
 

2 members of a programming team learning different languages isn't a bad thing, per se. However, when you have 6 weeks to learn and apply, and one project... You might want to reconsider your strategy.

First, what languages does the other programmer already know? If one of them is C++ or Java, then use that one. If not, I would strongly suggest that both of you learn LABView for now. I took a semester of C++ in college... and I think I might have a chance of making a robot move if I'm lucky (or someone held a gun to my head).

LABView is easier, as I understand it. Go with it. Then learn C++ later, when you aren't working under as tight a deadline.

Re: Very New and Very Clueless!
 

He currently knows a little of Java but mostly C++ and wants to learn LabVIEW but that isn't going very well....he is considering switching to C++ but doesn't know it well enough to completely program the robot.

I took a look at LabVIEW this afternoon and it looks VERY simple. So I'm going to try and get that down this season.

But the reason I'm learning C++ is to learn how to program (and also because he knows it already)...because LabVIEW is pretty visual instead of using code.

Re: Very New and Very Clueless!
 

Well, the biggest problem is you need a ROBOT programmer, not a head programmer :rolleyes:

Learning C++ is not trivial, and 6 weeks is cutting it close. But if HE knows some, and you learn some, you have a good shot. Labview is easier to master, but it still takes time. If both of you are starting from zero, maybe too much time.

There are a lot of C++ resources for FRC out there, check the links on the usfirst.org site and search CheifDelphi.

Re: Very New and Very Clueless!
 

Haha, your going between mine and your posts, that made me laugh. i was wondering what is LabView. sorry for asking such a simple question, i am also new to programming.

Re: Very New and Very Clueless!
 

Most of the same basic constructs you'd find in a text-based language are present in Labview, they're just more visual. I recommend learning one language at a time so you don't get confused by different terminology. Once you get the basics of programming down in one language, they transfer pretty well. For example, a Select block in Labview is the functional equivalent of an if/then/else statement in C. The only weird thing about Labview is using dataflow through the wires rather than passing variables around explicitly.

The frcmastery videos start pretty basic and work up. NI.com also has a lot of good resources for Labview.

haha:p

We're just in a pretty tricky situation....

The good part is that we have a mentor who knows Labview and a few outside contacts as well...

We'll probably just stick with Labview unless we get really frustrated....the biggest problem is getting out camera to work right now:p

LabVIEW is one of the other programming languages (other than C++ or Java) that is most often used in FRC

haha its fine:)

Yeah the wire stuff is pretty confusing...

We just need some practice and "play" time:p

Re: Very New and Very Clueless!
 

Sorry for posting this again, but i was wondering what LabView focus is in programming like visual or something as i am a new at programming, so please help with links and resources for either C++, Java, or LabView as i hear it is a simple language.

Re: Very New and Very Clueless!
 

I've been referred to www.frcmastery.com and it seems pretty helpful

Re: Very New and Very Clueless!
 

Thank you, i guess. lol

Re: Very New and Very Clueless!
 

This might help too

http://www.usfirst.org/roboticsprogr...ical-Resources

Re: Very New and Very Clueless!
 

In my opinion (perhaps a little biased because we use Java) a text based language is much easier to use. I tried helping another team with Labview at the last competition and had no idea what I was doing, but I got it to work in the end. If you or the person you work are familiar with C++, I would suggest going with that. There are some new resources to support that here: http://wpilib.screenstepslive.com/s/3120/m/7913

On the other hand, if you have a general knowledge of programming concepts, Labview is very easy to learn, and FIRST (with it's partnership with NI) seems to have a lot more support for using Labview than for using C++ or Java, i.e. the virtual cRIO which only has support for Labview.

Re: Very New and Very Clueless!
 

I *have* realized that LabVIEW has more support.......that helps alot

Re: Very New and Very Clueless!
 

Don't forget about the RobotBuilder Java Applet tool available this year. As coach of a team and 0 robot programming knowledge, but knowledge of the concept, RobotBuilder should be a great asset to your team this year. This works for C++ and Java and is included with the installation of Netbeans or Windriver.

I forget which directory the files is in, but a search for "RobotBuilder-r608.jar" on your computer should find it.

Here is a great video introducing the software

Good luck this year!

Re: Very New and Very Clueless!
 

Alright thanks I'll look into it:)

Re: Very New and Very Clueless!
 

Somewhere in this thread, there seemed to be a question as to what LV was used for and some confusion as to whether it is a programming language.

The moderately short answer is, it is an engineering tool and a domain specific language. The domain is science and engineering. LV is used by most large research labs, college research labs, manufacturing, and manufacturing test. The code written in LV tends to interact with hardware and either monitors, tests, or controls the hardware.

The obvious difference with LV is that it is graphical. The important difference is that it executes your code based on data flow. LV has no pointers, whenever possible refers to data by value, and makes parallel code execution very very easy. These aspects tend to make it good for robotics and machine control when in the right hands.

I'll be happy to answer other questions, but it sounds like you should get busy learning some programming language and making a robot move.

Greg McKaskle

Real Life Experience
 

one of the other teams here in town was a rookie team last year. In spite of the fact that the sponsoring school already taught C++ to sophomores, they did their bot in LabVIEW last year because of the tight tight timeline (team didn't get formed until Nov or Dec). During the season, they were worried about getting to competition, they judged that having good support from other local teams helped that more than reusing what they knew. You can argue that it was or was not a good decision, though frustrating for the C++ programmers, but the team did well, and the programming did not hold them back, near as I could tell from the sidelines.

But as soon as competition was over, the students rewrote last year's robot in C++, learned all the foibles of running on the cRIO, along with how to use the WPIlib. This fall, the school did a Saturday C++ class for the freshman and anyone else that hadn't taken it at school. They are doing this years bot in C++, and I have no doubt that they will have great code. Student ownership was key.

Greg's earlier statement still stands: you need to get the bot to move in the next few weeks. You have time later to rethink your language decision when the pressure is off (but you need to dedicate yourself to actually doing it in the off-season).

Re: Very New and Very Clueless!
 

I think going with Labview is a decent choice for your first year. Once your season is over, you can spend your off season reprogramming your robot to do the same thing in C++ if you wish to learn it; this way you have a target to reach without a crunch for time, and you'll be able to decide which you like better.

Another way to look at the LV vs C++ question is to think about where you want to go in life. If you are really into computers, and think you want to be a Computer Science/Engineer someday, then learning C++ (or Java) will give you a head start. Other engineering disciplines are more likely to use Labview, which is better for developing machine controls much more quickly; though in FRC this speed advantage is much less apparent because WPILib provides a C++ toolset that provides the same "blocks" as Labview.

Re: Very New and Very Clueless!
 

Alright so its official...We're using LabVIEW this season. Are there any good places (other than the FIRST website) where I can find some tutorials for LabVIEW?

Re: Very New and Very Clueless!
 

FRCMastery as previously mentioned above

Team 358 has some awesome information

National Instruments' website is also quite nice.

I haven't checked this one out properly, but a company called Sixclear is apparently offering free Labview training for FRC teams.

And of course, you can ask specific questions here...

Re: Very New and Very Clueless!
 

The Getting Started window has a Tutorials tab, and in Support tab is the Example Finder tool. The videos and such are on the web site.

Greg McKaskle

Re: Very New and Very Clueless!
 

Thank you soooo much!

Our head programmer and I did some work on LabVIEW today and actually made some progress! We mapped out the buttons on our controller and have started to slowly learn the inner workings of LabVIEW:)

Re: Very New and Very Clueless!
 

I would suggest that you find a Team close to you that uses C++. One team I know for sure uses LAB View in California is Monte Vista HS, Cupertino, Ca. Are there any large companies near you that you could talk a Retired/ Layoff Programmer to help you? Is there a University near you that teaches C++ Classes? If so, try to get a Grad Student to help you. Where there is a will there is a way. Ask FIRST for specific help on Programming. Ask the regional Director.

Re: Very New and Very Clueless!
 

We finally have the drive train running:D Thank you all very much for your help!

Re: Very New and Very Clueless!
 

Thank you all for all of your help!
This year my team was able to go 17-1 at Bayou regional and was the captain of the number one alliance who went on to win! We were able to go to St. Louis for the first time and we had a blast!

Thanks for making all of that possible:D

Re: Very New and Very Clueless!
 

I know you guys have probably learned many things since the initial posting. I just wanted to throw out there that I am teaching a LabVIEW class in New Orleans. If you are at all interested (maybe in some more advanced topics?) PM me and I can get you more information.

Re: Very New and Very Clueless!
 

I would definitely like some help in vision processing, pneumatics, and just general drive train coding!