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-   -   Pyramid rule clarification (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=110886)

TheGuyz 09-01-2013 23:32
Pyramid rule clarification
 
Do the levels of the pyramid extend outside of the pyramid frame? With the exception of level 0

nathan_hui 09-01-2013 23:38
Re: Pyramid rule clarification
 
Yes. It is implied that the levels of the pyramid extend to the full extent of the field, and no rules as of yet have nullified that interpretation.

TheGuyz 09-01-2013 23:45
Okay thanks. We were also wondering when does the next level start above each bar?

Yankeefan181 10-01-2013 00:00
Re: Pyramid rule clarification
 
Slightly unrelated, but I thought this was a good thread to put this on. Just a heads up to everyone, FIRST has actually updated the rules without telling anyone. The initial rules that came out right before kickoff had in (in section 3.2.4.2):

"A ROBOT has CLIMBED its PYRAMID if it contacts the PYRAMID in A. sequential order (Level 0, 1, 2, 3) during ascent and B. no more than two (2) Levels simultaneously."

Since the floor is not counted in the definition of PYRAMID, this would mean that a robot could be contacting the floor, level 1, and level 2 and the same time. However, when I downloaded the manual today after I noticed an irregularity in the Q&A, I found the following:

"A ROBOT has CLIMBED its PYRAMID if it contacts the PYRAMID and/or the floor (Level 0) in A. sequential order (Level 0, 1, 2, 3) during ascent and B. no more than two (2) Levels simultaneously."

This is the only difference I've seen, but I bet there's more. Just a heads up to everyone, you may want to re-download the rules.

wilsonmw04 10-01-2013 00:08
Re: Pyramid rule clarification
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nathan_hui (Post 1212051)
Yes. It is implied that the levels of the pyramid extend to the full extent of the field, and no rules as of yet have nullified that interpretation.
If this is true, then a robot this is over 30" tall could not legally climb the Pyramid. IS this the intent of the rule?

Domtech 10-01-2013 00:08
Re: Pyramid rule clarification
 
Um, that was actually announced in the first team update.

Domtech 10-01-2013 00:11
Re: Pyramid rule clarification
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by wilsonmw04 (Post 1212073)
If this is true, then a robot this is over 30" tall could not legally climb the Pyramid. IS this the intent of the rule?
Over 30 inches is fine, as long as you don't CONTACT it in more than 2 zones.

wilsonmw04 10-01-2013 00:12
Re: Pyramid rule clarification
 
Is was just going to post this:

Quote:
The requirements in Section 3.1.5.2 A and B pertain to the ROBOT'S contact with the PYRAMID and/or floor within each Level, not the ROBOT'S presence in the physical space of the Level.
this makes life MUCH easier

Garten Haeska 10-01-2013 00:18
Re: Pyramid rule clarification
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by wilsonmw04 (Post 1212081)
Is was just going to post this:



this makes life MUCH easier
Alright I thinking know what you mean but would you care to clarify?

TheGuyz 10-01-2013 00:18
Where did you see that post? I am just wondering?

nikeairmancurry 10-01-2013 00:27
Re: Pyramid rule clarification
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Garten Haeska (Post 1212085)
Alright I thinking know what you mean but would you care to clarify?
I think this might help. So your grabbing the level 1 bar, still touching the floor, but your robot is more than 30 inches high so it extends into the airspace of level 2. But since your are not in contact with level 2 bar, you are only consider in two levels. The airspace between the bars does not count to the "what levels your in".

nitneylion452 10-01-2013 00:38
Re: Pyramid rule clarification
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nikeairmancurry (Post 1212090)
I think this might help. So your grabbing the level 1 bar, still touching the floor, but your robot is more than 30 inches high so it extends into the airspace of level 2. But since your are not in contact with level 2 bar, you are only consider in two levels. The airspace between the bars does not count to the "what levels your in".
Well, not quite. Being in a level's airspace is ok. It's touching the pyramid in more than 2 zones that isn't. For example, touching the floor (level 0), the bar in level 1, and the bar in level 2. Simply touching the floor and the bar in level 1 is ok, even if your robot is occupying some of level 2's airspace. The robot just can't touch the pyramid in more than 2 zones at once.

Garten Haeska 10-01-2013 00:39
Re: Pyramid rule clarification
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nikeairmancurry (Post 1212090)
I think this might help. So your grabbing the level 1 bar, still touching the floor, but your robot is more than 30 inches high so it extends into the airspace of level 2. But since your are not in contact with level 2 bar, you are only consider in two levels. The airspace between the bars does not count to the "what levels your in".
Yes it does! Thank you!

wilsonmw04 10-01-2013 07:07
Re: Pyramid rule clarification
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nikeairmancurry (Post 1212090)
I think this might help. So your grabbing the level 1 bar, still touching the floor, but your robot is more than 30 inches high so it extends into the airspace of level 2. But since your are not in contact with level 2 bar, you are only consider in two levels. The airspace between the bars does not count to the "what levels your in".
this is what I was concerned about. The clarification takes it off the table.

joshjet 10-01-2013 12:05
Re: Pyramid rule clarification
 
I'm sorry, but I guess I still don't understand completely. Does this mean that we would be unable to reach directly to the second bar while sitting on the ground?

JB987 10-01-2013 12:08
Re: Pyramid rule clarification
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by joshjet (Post 1212286)
I'm sorry, but I guess I still don't understand completely. Does this mean that we would be unable to reach directly to the second bar while sitting on the ground?
Yes...

Alan Anderson 10-01-2013 13:17
Re: Pyramid rule clarification
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by joshjet (Post 1212286)
I'm sorry, but I guess I still don't understand completely. Does this mean that we would be unable to reach directly to the second bar while sitting on the ground?
If you're sitting on the ground, you are in contact with Level 0. If you then touch the second bar, you are in contact with the pyramid in Level 2. Contact in levels 0 and 2 simultaneously invalidates a CLIMB attempt.

DjScribbles 10-01-2013 13:48
Re: Pyramid rule clarification
 
The Q&A has cleared up a few points of confusion regarding climbing (one pointed out earlier):

The decision of whether or not a climb is valid/invalid is made based on where the robot makes contact with the pyramid only, not air space *1. Sequential contact means in order, but also not skipping levels *2.

*1
Quote:
Q.Figure 3-4 on page 28/90 shows Level 2 just above the horizontal bar. Since the rule states no
more than two zones why is it (or is it) permissible to hook the pipe while still on the floor and if so
how far into level 2 can you go? Does that include the side pipes?
A.The requirements in Section 3.1.5.2 A and B pertain to the ROBOT'S contact with the PYRAMID
and/or floor within each Level, not the ROBOT'S presence in the physical space of the Level.
*2
Quote:
Q.Can the robot go from the floor to level 2 while climbing the pyramid or does it have to climb to
level 1 first and then level 2? I need clarification
A.Per Section 3.1.5.2, a ROBOT has CLIMBED its PYRAMID if it contacts the PYRAMID and/or the floor (Level 0) in sequential order (Level 0, 1, 2, 3) during ascent. Skipping a level (i.e. going from
the floor directly to Level 2) would not meet the "sequential order" requirement.


The scoring of your robot however, is determined by the lowest air space (zone) is occupies *3, including the bumpers *4.

*3
Quote:
Q.Is the climb score counted by lowest point relative to a horizontal plane at the top of each rung,
or by the lowest point of the robot physically touching the tower. I.E. If an robot is hanging down
into zone 2, but is touching only the steel in zone 3, is his score 20 or 30?
A.Per Section 3.1.5.2, the Level to which a ROBOT has CLIMBED is determined by the lowest point
of the ROBOT (not the lowest point of the ROBOT contacting the PYRAMID).
*4
Quote:
Q.When hanging does the lowest point of the robot include the bumpers?
A.Yes.


Also, while not directly related to the pyramid, Q&A has also stated that the 54" cylinder limit for appendages is always with respect to the ground, so while climbing at a 68deg angle, an appendage that would extend outside the 54" cylinder when flat on the ground may be used *5. Conversely, the height requirement of 60"/84" is always taken with respect to the base of the robot *6.

*5
Quote:
Q.Is the 54 inch envelope diameter (figure 3-5) orientation sensitive ie is its axis always vertical
regardless of the robots axis ie such as when the robot climbs?
A.The vertical cylinder specified in G23 is not coupled with the ROBOT's orientation and is always
vertical.
*6
Quote:
Q.Rule G22 places height restrictions "in relation to the ROBOT." Does this apply to G23 (horizontal
restrictions)? When climbing the pyramid, extending an appendage "out" from the robot but "up" in
space might extend past the cylinder if it is taken relative to the robot, as opposed to the ground.
A.The height requirement in G22 is relative to the ROBOT. The horizontal volume requirement of
G23 is relative to the FIELD (see answer to [Q15]).

A lot of the conclusions I've stated are reinforced by multiple answers to similar questions, I tried to pick the most clear instance, but please check the Q&A if I didn't justify all of my conclusions completely, and if I'm wrong, do correct me :)

nighterfighter 10-01-2013 14:15
Re: Pyramid rule clarification
 
Quote:
Q.Can the robot go from the floor to level 2 while climbing the pyramid or does it have to climb to
level 1 first and then level 2? I need clarification
A.Per Section 3.1.5.2, a ROBOT has CLIMBED its PYRAMID if it contacts the PYRAMID and/or the floor (Level 0) in sequential order (Level 0, 1, 2, 3) during ascent. Skipping a level (i.e. going from
the floor directly to Level 2) would not meet the "sequential order" requirement.
So to play devil's advocate:

Could a robot sit on the floor (Level 0), extend up their arm and touch the bar (level 1), back off the bar (no longer in contact with level 1, but HAS satisfied the requirement of sequential order) then extend to the level 2 bar and attach itself to that bar, while still on the ground, before winching themselves up?

The robot made sequential contact with Level 0 -> Level 1 -> Level 2, but during the time between Level 1 and Level 2, remained in contact with Level 0.

Jimmy Nichols 10-01-2013 14:31
Re: Pyramid rule clarification
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yankeefan181 (Post 1212068)
...you may want to re-download the rules.
Just a tip, you may want to either download the FRC Manual app or bookmark the link as there will be Manual updates twice a week. You do not want to be designing on an interpretation of the rules only to find out the rule was updated weeks early.

Taylor 10-01-2013 14:38
Re: Pyramid rule clarification
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nighterfighter (Post 1212376)
So to play devil's advocate:

Could a robot sit on the floor (Level 0), extend up their arm and touch the bar (level 1), back off the bar (no longer in contact with level 1, but HAS satisfied the requirement of sequential order) then extend to the level 2 bar and attach itself to that bar, while still on the ground, before winching themselves up?

The robot made sequential contact with Level 0 -> Level 1 -> Level 2, but during the time between Level 1 and Level 2, remained in contact with Level 0.
That series of events would be 0-1-0-2 which is not sequential.

nighterfighter 10-01-2013 19:36
Re: Pyramid rule clarification
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taylor (Post 1212395)
That series of events would be 0-1-0-2 which is not sequential.
Good point.


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