Chief Delphi - Entering goal

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1493kd

10-01-2013 13:36

Entering goal

I looked high and low in the rules and cant find anything about having part of your bot enter a goal. One of our designs is to scoop up the game pieces and dump them in the goal. Part of the bot may enter the goal when dumping. Is there anything against this?

vinnie

10-01-2013 13:44

Re: Entering goal

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1493kd (Post 1212345)

It should be in the manual somewhere.

I don't think it is explicitly prohibited, but a relevant rule could be G14

Quote:

Originally Posted by FRC Manual

G14
The following actions are prohibited with regards to interaction with FIELD elements:

grabbing,
grasping
grappling
attaching to,
damaging,
becoming entangled

Actions A-D do not apply to ROBOT interactions with the PYRAMID.

Just make sure that you don't become entangled in or damage the goal. I would submit this to Q&A though if this is a serious part of your design.

Edit: It may be considered "exiting the field" in which case your robot would be disabled. I would submit this to the Q&A if you are thinking of integrating that idea into your design.

Greg Young

10-01-2013 13:47

Re: Entering goal

From the Q&A

Q20 Q. If I put something into the low goal to drop Frisbee's into the goal is it considered leaving the field?

A. There are no Rules that prohibit breaking the plane of the LOW GOAL, however per Rule G12, ROBOTS may not contact anything outside the FIELD.

I suspect that if you contact the chains or the back of the goal you will draw a foul.

I looked for other questions about this and didn't find any. It is probably worth a Q&A about whether the chains are considered part of the field.

nighterfighter

10-01-2013 13:50

Re: Entering goal

Per the FRC Q&A:

Quote:

Q20 Q. If I put something into the low goal to drop Frisbee's into the goal is it considered leaving the field?

Quote:

A. There are no Rules that prohibit breaking the plane of the LOW GOAL, however per Rule G12, ROBOTS may not contact anything outside the FIELD

Rule G12 states:

Quote:

ROBOTS may not contact anything outside the FIELD.

So the question is now, what defines the FIELD.

Per the glossary section of the manual:

Quote:

FIELD: the area bounded by and including the GUARDRAILS, ALLIANCE WALLS, LOW GOALS, and FEEDER STATIONS.

The definition explicity states that the LOW GOALS are part of the field, thus contacting them would NOT be breaking the field.

However, the MIDDLE GOALS and HIGH GOALS are NOT included in this definition, (and they DO exist in the glossary) so by this definition, if your robot touched ANY part of the goal, it would be a penalty per G12.

You should ask the Q&A for further clarification.

1493kd

10-01-2013 13:51

Re: Entering goal

Thank you now I have to check field drawing to see how far back the chain are.

nighterfighter

10-01-2013 13:53

Re: Entering goal

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1493kd (Post 1212360)

Thank you now I have to check field drawing to see how far back the chain are.

Keep in mind that if the top goals are NOT considered to be part of the field, simply breaking the vertical plane could incur a penalty, or even if the robot doesn't touch the chains, but contacts the inside frame of the goal it could be penalized.

Greg Young

10-01-2013 13:58

Re: Entering goal

I should have checked the rule.

3.2.3.3 G12
ROBOTS may not contact anything outside the FIELD.

Violation: ROBOT will be DISABLED. However, if it occurs during AUTO, and there is no safety concern, the Head
Referee will allow a 10-second grace period at the beginning of TELEOP for the ROBOT to correct the situation.

It sounds like you could survive it during AUTO but it could get you disabled during TELEOP.

You definitely need clarification through the Q&A.

GaryVoshol

10-01-2013 18:39

Re: Entering goal

Quote:

Originally Posted by nighterfighter (Post 1212358)

Per the FRC Q&A:

Rule G12 states:

So the question is now, what defines the FIELD.

Per the glossary section of the manual:

"FIELD: the area bounded by and including the GUARDRAILS, ALLIANCE WALLS, LOW GOALS, and FEEDER STATIONS."

The definition explicity states that the LOW GOALS are part of the field, thus contacting them would NOT be breaking the field.

However, the MIDDLE GOALS and HIGH GOALS are NOT included in this definition, (and they DO exist in the glossary) so by this definition, if your robot touched ANY part of the goal, it would be a penalty per G12.

You should ask the Q&A for further clarification.

They include LOW GOALS and FEEDER STATIONS as boundaries of the field because they cut off an angle between the ALLIANCE WALLS and GUARDRAILS. If you reach through a hole in one of the boundaries, or reach over, you can't touch anything outside that boundary.

Basel A

10-01-2013 19:00

Re: Entering goal

Quote:

2.2.3: Each ALLIANCE’S LOW GOAL is located adjacent to the opponent ALLIANCE WALL and to the opponent DRIVERS’ left. The opening of the LOW GOAL is 29 in. wide and 24 in. tall. The bottom edge of the LOW GOAL is located 19 in. from the playing surface of the FIELD.

Quote:

3.1.5.1:
A DISC is considered SCORED in an ALLIANCE’S GOAL if any part of the DISC has crossed through the opening of the GOAL, is in the GOAL at the end of the MATCH, and is not in contact with any ROBOT from that ALLIANCE.

Quote:

6.1:
GOAL: a FIELD element in which DISCS are SCORED to earn points for an ALLIANCE.
. . .
LOW GOAL: the GOAL located between a FEEDER STATION and ALLIANCE WALL.

Emphases mine. If DISCS are scored in the GOALS, then the GOAL has an inside, which I believe can be assumed to include the chains. The idea that the GOALS have an opening that is parallel to the field wall suggests that this boundary is only the beginning of the GOAL and that there is more goal past that boundary.

nighterfighter

10-01-2013 19:11

Re: Entering goal

Quote:

Originally Posted by Basel A (Post 1212561)

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but if the field includes the low goal and the low goal includes the chains, then the chains are in the field of play and can be touched without penalty. Looking at that logical chain, the only part of which I'm unsure is that the chains are part of the goal.

Emphases mine. If DISCS are scored in the GOALS, then the GOAL has an inside, which I believe can be assumed to include the chains. The idea that the GOALS have an opening that is parallel to the field wall suggests that this boundary is only the beginning of the GOAL and that there is more goal past that boundary.

The low goal is defined as part of the field, due to what Gary Voshol stated.

If this definition of low goal IS true, and follows over to high goals, then touching the chains should be legal, assuming the robot does not get entangled.

GaryVoshol

10-01-2013 22:31

Re: Entering goal

It's certainly worthy of a Q&A: "Are the chains part of the goal and on the field, or are they outside the field?" I'd be happy to be proven wrong.

danopia

10-01-2013 22:37

Re: Entering goal

Quote:

Originally Posted by GaryVoshol (Post 1212735)

It's certainly worthy of a Q&A: "Are the chains part of the goal and on the field, or are they outside the field?" I'd be happy to be proven wrong.

Just going off instinct, I'd have to say that the field ends at the field's walls, as that's how the playing area is measured; the chains are beyond this wall, so they're probably going to be outside of the field. Just an assumption, though.

Nuttyman54

10-01-2013 22:42

Re: Entering goal

Quote:

Originally Posted by nighterfighter (Post 1212571)

The middle and high goals are both located above the 84" height limit, so no legal robot would be able to enter our touch the chains inside them regardless.

z_beeblebrox

10-01-2013 22:57

Re: Entering goal

Why would you want to go in instead of dropping the discs in from just outside?

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