Prelim Photon Cannon Test
 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IlM7O3EZ9IQ

6000 lumen Deap Sea and Light LED light for our AUV, broad beam, not focused and no reflected tape

Re: Prelim Photon Cannon Test
 

I predict we'll be seeing a lot more of these this year. #teamFlashlight

Re: Prelim Photon Cannon Test
 

Why is everyone using such bright lights?? There is absolutely no need for this overkill. Last year we used a really dim (and I mean like a 2 dollar toy keychain light) to illuminate the targets.

If you use a dim colored light the retro reflective properties of the tape will allow you to get a nice HSV range you can use in your programs.

Re: Prelim Photon Cannon Test
 

If I'm not mistaken, these teams aren't using lights for the camera. They're using the beam of light as the aiming mechanism. If the beam is to the left of the goal, turn your robot till it points to the center.

Re: Prelim Photon Cannon Test
 

Thats all we had to test with, we are looking at 1000 lum focused, we are not going to use a computer vision tracking, its for our driver. When he sees the light on the reflective tape he can shot. This will give us an arc in front of the goals

Re: Prelim Photon Cannon Test
 

Ah... Mounted Axis Cam with cross hairs on your ds? Why waist time and money putting one of these together?

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No camera, just a light. 180 and 25 used these to great success (you know, World Champions and all) last year. No fancy equipment, just point a focused flashlight at the target. They're really using it more like a laser sight, but big enough that the dot can be seen when it's on the opposite field wall.

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We want our drivers to be looking and paying attention to the field and not the camera. For us its just more intuitive. Never have to bob your head up and down. Just straight.

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The drivers won't see much of a reflection from the retroreflective tape itself. It does a very good job of sending light right back at the source.

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During the photon cannon preliminary tests for 4334, I noticed that even with the light pointed considerably high above one's head, the source of light still makes for a very bright and potentially very distracting element. Especially with extremely high powered light sources such as this one. As a driver, this is something that I am seriously worried about.

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Yeah, but the driver will have a camera mounted on the robot, so when the light reflects back on the robot, the camera will catch it and the driver can shoot, especially if the light is a ring light that is mounted on the camera.

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Being on the opposite end of 25's photon cannon last season, I'd have to agree with you.

Seeing more and more of these on the field wont be fun

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Nuttyman54 is dead on: :)

We tried out a number of Bulb and LED flashlights, that we picked up from Lowes and Home Depot....nothing fancy. We modified them to be powered from 12v-5v and 12v-3v dc to dc converters as needed. We started off with both an automatic vision targeting system (that coupled the web cam and the chassis motors through a PID loop) and the manual targeting of the driver with the flashlight. We had both systems active at the Orlando regional. The driver got so good with the photon cannon ( gotta give George Wallace the credt for that moniker) that he abandoned the auto-targeting. We kept the vision targeting for autonomous - through the practice rounds of the South Florida regional. But, after the driver and operator demonstrated that they could line up the autonomous shots without it, we moved the web cam from up top to down low near the floor. This allowed us to shorten the 'bot to meet the height requirements for balancing from either side of the field, and gave our coach a view of balls in the hard-to-see corners and under the bridges. The 'bot we brought to Championships remained in that configuration.

I find Brandon_L's comment interesting. During our testing, I found the LED ring, we had for the vision targeting, to be much more distracting, from the driver's station, than the photon cannon. Do you also find the light rings distracting?

We will be trying both schemes, again, this year, and we'll see which one proves most effective. Manual simplicity or automated complexity...you learn lessons from both.

Thanks,
Eric

Re: Prelim Photon Cannon Test
 

Our driver greatly benefited from have a photon cannon guided system. Never having to look away from the field made it a lot easier to line up. Since our robot only had one shooting range, the light lined up almost guaranteed the shot. It is definitely something to look into if you are having trouble getting the camera tracking to work for you.

Now given the simplicity and the benefits of a light, I wouldn't be surprised to seeing a lot more teams using a flashlight. I would have to agree that to anyone on the field, this could get annoying fast. Six separate beams of photons will not make it easy on the drivers. Though it could be cool from the stands. I don't think Dean Kamen ever imagined FIRST evolving into a ROBOT RAVE.

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Ooops well then we will have to use the wall above the retro reflective tape.....

Re: Prelim Photon Cannon Test
 

We used a latest generation Maglight for our tests, and I was seeing spots for about 5 minutes after looking at the beam even from a fairly high angle. I don't think my eyes are particularly light sensitive, but having a bunch of high powered flashlights on the field could potentially be eye-damaging or at least seriously annoying. I realize that the easy solution is to wear tinted safetys, but I don't think anyone really wants to do that.

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How exactly would you tune the photon gate as your primary aiming system? Would you have the driver look for a certain arc height, intensity, or what? I've become mildly interested in using this, especially so the drivers wouldn't have to hunch over and look on the screen to aim.

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To further elaborate on Mac's point. We were actually wondering whether FIRST would disallow the configuration we were testing as either a safety hazard or an attempt to interfere with the vision of the opposing drivers (as our goals are directly above the opposing drivers). What lights are you guys finding give you the most effective and concentrated beam?

Re: Prelim Photon Cannon Test
 

You want to design a targeting system to keep you driver and operator's eyes on the field! Lining up and shooting quickly is critical to getting a lot of shots on-goal. Leave Dashboards for the coaches, if need be...and for trouble-shooting in-game robot issues.

For an automatic targeting system, a driver/operator needs to be able to engage/dis-engage the system and trust that the software/hardware can line up the shot. Or they won't use it...period.

In 2012, for a manual system, we tweaked and tweaked the flashlight mount, tweaked and tweaked the shooter angle and speed, and practiced and practiced with the driver to define a "sweet spot" on the target above the basket. Position the robot to hit the sweet spot with the flashlight, and make the basket.

thanks,
Eric

Re: Prelim Photon Cannon Test
 

Make sure its not going to blind the drivers, or else you could get penalties...

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Again, as someone who was at one point on the other side of 25's light, initially (ie. right as the match began), it was a distraction, but it was more of just an "aaah light!", and from then on, it wasn't really a distraction(ie. the distraction didn't last long). IMO there were other teams with bright LED rings that proved more of a distraction.

Re: Prelim Photon Cannon Test
 

I would expect that if this idea takes off, it may get shutdown by R08, especially brighter lights like the one shown; which you stated you will replace with something less distracting, but copycats may not follow suit, thus creating a ruckus and causing the rules to tighten up significantly.

Re: Prelim Photon Cannon Test
 

As long as no team lodges a official complaint, I would not expect to see anyone penalized under R08.

There is a defined mechanism for a team to notify the referee that they were distracted during the match.

T13 If a TEAM needs clarification on a ruling or score, one (1) pre-college student from that TEAM should address the Head Referee after the ARENA reset signal (i.e. PLAYER STATION LED strings turn green). A TEAM member signals their desire to speak with the Head Referee by standing in the Red or Blue Question Box, which are located on the floor at each end of the scoring table. Depending on timing, the Head Referee may postpone any requested discussion until the end of the subsequent MATCH.

If, after a match, all three teams lodged a distraction complaint, and this happened after every match in which a robot with a strong light played, I would expect the referees to do something about it. But, the referees will not attempt to read minds, and won't do anything about the rule if no one lodges a complaint.

We got some pretty powerful (1000lumen) bike lights in today and they work very well. We plan on covering the edges so it is more focused and less blinding.

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Is this really a good alternative to vision targeting?

We are hoping to use it as a supplement. Every venue is different and with it the lighting changes so if our camera doesn't work then this is already in place. Plus this is a bit faster than the camera tracking software we had.

Re: Prelim Photon Cannon Test
 

That is up to your driver. As stated earlier;

Only after trying out both vision targeting and a light will you be able to tell which is right for your driver. The flashlight was stuck on our 'bot last year just to please the mighty George Wallace. A few were skeptical at first. But our driver liked it much better, and that's what stayed with our 'bot through all of the competitions. As with any idea, it's hard to tell what is a better alternative until implementation. Though I still agree with some of the other posts. Be careful with your aiming. A light straight to the eye of the opposing alliance is not a good thing.

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We are probably going to do this, but use a slightly smaller light and have it on a spike so that we only have it on when we need to use it.

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2815 picked up a spot-beam tractor light yesterday for this purpose--our quick test (wires to a robot battery) showed a much more focused beam than the video. We may yet put it on a Spike more out of current draw concern than blinding the other side; mounted sufficiently low, I doubt we'll get close enough to shine it on the drivers. Failing that, we may add some barn doors to it once we've determined the sweet spot.

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Will teams be using the photo cannons this year?
If so, which lights are you using ?

I could see how a photo cannon might be useful to shoot frisbees into the pyramid goal or 2-point goal, but it doesn't seem necessary for the 3-point goal.

The pyramid is a good alignment device this year to make shots on the 3-point goal.

Re: Prelim Photon Cannon Test
 

I would like to also say that I would recommend that you check and make sure that those lights are not annoying. And remember to think of it from the other team's point of view.

Also, if teams start using these more often without close consideration of blinding factors. We may end up seeing some more light specific rules next year (which could also hurt teams using the lights for cameras).

If those lights are up close to the window and aimed up from a lower bot, I would not want a strong flashlight pointed towards my eyes (I know how blinding those newer ones can).

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This year we are using auto tracking. We are playing with ring lights and at the moment are using 3 green LED ring lights. All I can say is WOW! We could be chosen in eliminations just cuz the light is so bright it will blind the opponents and slow them down.

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I know you're joking but be careful of <R08>

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To get bright lights with no chance of distracting other drivers as well as massively reducing the likelihood of swamping from other light sources teams should use optical bandpass filters.

I'm sure other teams have done this before but I've not seen it. We did it last year with our vision system that worked great - too bad the shooter didn't work well enough to make it effective in the end. We used high wattage LEDs with peak output in the IR range that matches the bandpass filter built into the Kinect. You can do the same thing with a filter purchased from Edmund Optics or some other supply house.

This worked incredibly well for our vision system. We'd get pitch black images with the retroreflective tape glowing bright white. Basically ideal conditions for computer vision. If even worked with sunlight streaming in the windows at the camera and it produced no visible light to distract drivers.

-Mike

Re: Prelim Photon Cannon Test
 

Seconded.

I know some of last year's high powered lights were verrrry intense and distracting when I was standing just behind and to the right of a driver's station during a match in St. Louis.

If you are not permitted to drape a sheet over a driver station to block the view of an opposing driver, why is it ok to blind them with a high powered flashlight?

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We're planning on this; if ours sees action, we'll work to keep it in check and Less Obnoxious.

Re: Prelim Photon Cannon Test
 

Back in 2001 I participated in a spinoff of FIRST called "Canada First" (As our FIRST had yet to come to Canada). The competition that year involved firing squash balls at targets. Lasers were prohibited so we used a 35W household halogen 12V pot light in a cardboard tube with a magnifying glass mounted inside the tube at the appropriate focal length to project a perfect "spot" on the targets. We inserted a piece of aluminum with a + slot machined in it and the result was a perfect crisp projection of a crosshairs on the targets. It worked magnificently well.

This being said, that competition, all the drivers were oriented to face the same direction and the targets were opaque so nobody was exposed to any aiming lights. I must say that if I felt it was impeding my drive team's ability to compete I would not have any bad feelings about launching a complaint against the offending device. FIRST has given you some incredible tools at your disposal (CRIO and Axis Camera). You should be endeavoring to use them and learn as much about the technology as possible.

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I wholeheartedly agree with those saying it could get distracting. I remember being surprised when I saw them last year, I really expected the idea to be shut down. Don't get me wrong, it's a good idea, but I'm not sure if it's really in the spirit of gracious professionalism.

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As far as turning the light on and off with a Spike (or just running it through a Spike), any thoughts on the legality per the wording of R52 and Table 4-4? A flashlight doesn't appear to be a "Legal Power Regulating Device Use" since it isn't listed as an allowable load on the Spike.

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I don't think there are any specific restrictions against using a Spike in a custom circuit.

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2073 will be using 3 concentrically mounted "UV" (black light) LED rings from SuperBrightLEDs.com

These are advertised to emit 400nm light. This is at the top end of the "Near UV" spectrum. The combined output of these three rings is 57,600mcd.

This sounds like a lot, but when viewed with the human eye, it is not uncomfortable at all. The wavelength is not detrimental to our eyes. On the other hand, the camera on the robot sees this light quite well.

My Canon 30D with barely picks up the light from the rings, as seen below. But, the Axis 601 sees it reflected from the target really well!

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This is a very interesting idea and I'm glad it worked well. That being said, we had absolutely no issues tracking a target last year in all lighting conditions (inside fluorescent, tungsten, outside cloudy, sunny, etc.). The trick was stated in the vision white paper last year. It requires overexposing the camera with a bright light source and then setting the camera to hold BOTH the white balance and exposure settings. Then set up a threshold based on Hue, Saturation and Luminance and tweak it. I took sample images at all events and ran them through the NI Vision Assistant as well and never had to change the threshold values.

- Bryce

Re: Prelim Photon Cannon Test
 

I don't see custom circuits listed in R52 either Alan. If you have a rule that explicitly lists what loads the different power regulating devices (speed controllers and relays) are allowed to regulate, I'd say that's a restriction.