Floor pickup Vs. feeder station
 

What will we see more teams doing? Feeder station or floor pick up?

Re: Floor pickup Vs. feeder station
 

Great robots will be able to do both.

Re: Floor pickup Vs. feeder station
 

You will most likely see more teams only be able to be fed from the feeder station. However, your question makes it seem like a robot who can pick up from the ground won't be able to be fed from the feeder station. The advantage of having floor pickup is the discs on the ground during auton and picking up missed shots. If there aren't missed shots in a match, most teams will still be able to be fed from their feeder. And if it is found that picking up off the ground isn't worth it, the teams with pickup mechanisms can simply deactivate or remove them from their robot completely. If it is found that they are super helpful, teams without them are going to have a harder time to adapt.

In conclusion, more teams will be going to feeder stations, picking up from the floor has a good chance to be a game winner (auton).

Re: Floor pickup Vs. feeder station
 

I concur with Glenn.

Re: Floor pickup Vs. feeder station
 

I think we'll see more robots feeding, though if it's like past years we might see a good amount of both. My team has chosen hand-feeding to save time, weight, and complexity on our robot.

Re: Floor pickup Vs. feeder station
 

Floor pickup. Every missed frisbee will end up on the ground, so the floor will be littered frisbees.

Re: Floor pickup Vs. feeder station
 

And some great robots won't.

Re: Floor pickup Vs. feeder station
 

I don't think it is necessary for this game, but the ability to do so can increase your autonomous scoring capabilities, this is the reason we chose to add a floor loader. I don't think we will be using it that often in a match, but we won't know for sure until we see some actual gameplay.

Re: Floor pickup Vs. feeder station
 

If you have floor pickup, can't you just human load off the floor?

Autonomous is the main reason to have a floor loader. Human load only robots will still be great this year, probably better than 2011.

Re: Floor pickup Vs. feeder station
 

There's one major problem I see with that, mostly time. From what I can see of most teams' designs, they'd have to back up after picking up a disc to let the feeder drop another one for them. Having to back up and then line back up for each disc will take far too long. It's possible to avoid this, but I think most teams will simply have a dedicated loading device.

Re: Floor pickup Vs. feeder station
 

Here is some video of two floor pickup systems.
Team 1493, The Falcons, had one of the most amusing systems.
Team 20, The Rocketeers, had one of the best.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5EX_oYPh8kI

Re: Floor pickup Vs. feeder station
 

We do feeder station exclusively.
Shouldn't this be a poll?

Re: Floor pickup Vs. feeder station
 

Why wouldn't the human player just push 4 frisbees through the slot while the robot is on it's way there, so they're sitting on the floor waiting for the robot to drive across them and pick them up when the robot gets there? Seemed to work pretty well for 2056 in Toronto.

Re: Floor pickup Vs. feeder station
 

While this is a completely valid strategy that my team (and I'm sure many others) discussed, there are a few issues.

-- When you're dropping them onto the ground, it's quite doubtful they will fall in a nice line for pickup. They might flip upside down, be stacked on top of each other, etc. This could be a problem.

-- Since you're dropping them from the edge of the field, they'll be right next to a wall. Some teams have trouble picking up right next to a wall, but this might work fine for others.

-- Say the robot that's going to receive the four discs is just finishing their current shots (let's call this Robot A), and about to head back for more. The Human Player begins dropping them on the ground, so that all four will be there and ready when the robot returns. The Human Player finishes, and the robot is nearly to the feeder station, but suddenly an opponent robot appears from under the pyramid (let's call this Robot B), and pins Robot A to the wall. Robot B can only hold the pin for a few seconds before a penalty, but in that short time frame, another robot with ground pickup on Robot B's alliance (Let's call this Robot C) drives over, and grabs the Frisbees. Robot B releases the pin, Robot C scores 12 easy points, and Robot A is now forced to wait for four more Frisbees.

-- On a similar note from the previous point, you really don't even need Robot B in the equation. Assuming the Human Player starts dropping discs before Robot A arrives, Robot C could just run over and grab a disc or two before Robot A gets to the feeder station. Robot C gets easy points, and slows down the other alliance, killing two birds with one stone.

If your pickup is really really fast, defense is sparse, and your human player is competent, it would probably work. Otherwise, it's a safe and easy bet to just design a ramp to intake discs directly.

Re: Floor pickup Vs. feeder station
 

Ground pickup > Feeder pickup

My proof? Go ask 2056.

Re: Floor pickup Vs. feeder station
 

It was a shallow week 2 regional. I would ask them after Waterloo.

Re: Floor pickup Vs. feeder station
 

Regardless; they hold the highest score in FRC; but your right, we'll see in Waterloo.

Teams with ground intake have been doing well (2056, 1986, 70, etc.), but then again so have teams without a ground intake (610, 1114, 862, etc.) As Paul Copioli said previously; there will be exceptional teams in both categories.

Re: Floor pickup Vs. feeder station
 

2056 also won GTR paired up with 1114, who was a star human-loader. 118 and 148 won at lone star with an identical arrangement.

Having more than a single fast floor loader is almost a waste, for lack of a better phrase, as a single robot on par with 2056/118/254 in terms of pickup speed is going to clear the field extremely rapidly. This is especially true in eliminations, where the majority of disks aren't ending up on the floor.

Re: Floor pickup Vs. feeder station
 

Is "amusing" good? Im going to assume that its a good thing. Yes it was not the most effective pick up method. We really wanted one just like 20 but we could not get it working great on carpet and we had an old vac setup from our ball control system for the soccer game. We were amazing how well it sucked up the pieces.

We were really happy with how it worked out. We never once had to go to the other side of the field and never could not find discs to pick up.Plus you get the added protection of the tower near you and so many teams are scared to go near you. Could we have done it faster and more effective...Yes.. But for a team that tends to struggle we feel like we nailed our game plan this year. Id say floor loading is the way to go. Good defense can slow down station loaders to easy. Unless you start seeing "lineman" style bots that set picks/blocks for teams to make it to the station.

Thank you for the video BTW

Re: Floor pickup Vs. feeder station
 

Not true. It can give you a 12 point advantage in autonomous.

Re: Floor pickup Vs. feeder station
 

I should have said fascinating. I was thoroughly entertained by your system and also how quickly you could shoot the frisbees that you picked up. You could also troll under the pyramid, which 20 could not. Impressive work.

I picked that match to video your robot, then I noticed that 20 was also in the match and thought: Jackpot! two for one."

Re: Floor pickup Vs. feeder station
 

I expect teams like 1114 and 610 to have a counter for that as well.

Re: Floor pickup Vs. feeder station
 

They do. Both teams had planned on floorloading this season.

Edit: didn't mean to start a debate, I do not know the inner workings of these teams, only rumors from unreliable sources.

Re: Floor pickup Vs. feeder station
 

Do you actually know this or are you just speculating?

Re: Floor pickup Vs. feeder station
 

So yes, you are speculating. Frankly I see no space on either of those robots for a floor pickup while staying <30". Please don't state things as facts that you don't know are true. Also, what does 610's PTO have to do with floor pickup?

Re: Floor pickup Vs. feeder station
 

Just because a team has space for a ground intake doesn't mean they have the weight.

Re: Floor pickup Vs. feeder station
 

:)

-Nick

Re: Floor pickup Vs. feeder station
 

I'm 100% certain you have no idea what either team is doing and that you are wrong that they will add floor intakes. It is incredibly hard to integrate something like that into the robot without provisioning for it in the first place.

Re: Floor pickup Vs. feeder station
 

You're right, I am sorry :o

Re: Floor pickup Vs. feeder station
 

I think at the highest echelon of game play, you will be shocked at how few frisbees will be missed and how few will be on the floor.

The primary reason to install a ground pickup is to enable increased auton scores.

In time studies we did at Waterford, we saw differences in timing between wall pickup and floor feed, but not as much as you would initially guess. The only pickup point that saved substantial time is the grouping on the center line because you can drive through them linearly to pick them up.

Ground pickups have an added advantage. They are complimentary to full-field shooters. However, full-field shooters have already been largely negated, so that point is arguable.

We're looking at a ground feed to add to our auton score. We've been looking all season, but this is the first point at which we've been able to focus on it. Those auton frisbees are critical at double points.

Re: Floor pickup Vs. feeder station
 

You don't need a floor pick-up nor a shooter
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqXTZyHvM4A

Re: Floor pickup Vs. feeder station
 

That makes 0 sense when paired with that video.

Re: Floor pickup Vs. feeder station
 

You could feed another bot to score the full auto. points

Re: Floor pickup Vs. feeder station
 

Someone still has to pick the other 6 off the ground.

Re: Floor pickup Vs. feeder station
 

To answer the question, I believe that we will see more teams use the feeder station than to pick up Frisbee from the floor, Now whether or not one is better than the other is totally depends on the alliance. Like mentions before, 148 & 118 worked well together because 1 worked the feeder well and 1 could pick up well.

So what would happen if there was an alliance of 3 that picked up from the floor. And another alliance that only fed from the human players?

Point is, there is no definite answer. This is FIRST, Whatever works well with your team is the best.

Re: Floor pickup Vs. feeder station
 

That is what you guys are for. :)

Re: Floor pickup Vs. feeder station
 

The only reason (I have observed) that cross-court shooters have been negated is that alliances have not drafted/strategized to ensure their cross-court shooter is unaffected by the opposing alliance's defense.

In other words, alliance a cross-court shooter, a ground pickup bot, and an offensive lineman to protect the cc shooter and we'll see if the cc shooter has been negated.

That's like saying a pocket passing QB has been negated because he can't avoid the rush without his O-line.

The best example I've seen so far of this was 51 blocking 4779 from deflecting 3604's cc shots. But even that was only in passing to/from attempting their 5pt disc shots.

I really, really, REALLY would like to see a "complete" cross-court shooting alliance assembled to legitimize this strategy's effectivity.

Re: Floor pickup Vs. feeder station
 

We found that our ground pick-up paired with 2791's great feeder station bot made a great alliance at WPI.
However, technical issues with bots certainly didn't help our alliance much, that's for sure.

Re: Floor pickup Vs. feeder station
 

This is an interesting discussion; Let's add some math.

Assumptions:

-the “floor pickup” robot is a robot that can score 42 points in auto (under pyramid) or 30 points (from midfield) and can hang in 5 sec for 10 points.

-the “30 point hanger” is a robot that scores 18 points in auto and can hang in 15sec for 30 points.

-All robots are 100% accurate in auto and 90% accurate in teleop. All robots always hang.

-Teleop cycles from the human player station and back are 20 seconds. (seems reasonable with high level play including Defense.) Floor loading and shooting from around your side of the pyramid takes 10 sec.

-Assume that the robots are not getting in each other’s way.

-A third pick should not be able to meet the above (or they are the most ridiculous sleeper in FRC history.) I will be running through examples with only two robots (presumably alliance captain and first pick.)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Example 1: “Floor pickup” + “30 point climber”

Auto points: 42 “floor pickup” + 18 “30 point climber” = 60 auto points

Teleop for “30 point climber” = 54+30 (climbing) = 84
120sec-15sec = 105sec in match to work with
105sec/20sec per trip = 5.25 trips round down ~5 trips
5trips * 4 disks = 20 disks
20 disks *90% accuracy = 18 disks
18 disks * 3 points = 54 points

Teleop for “ground pickup” =66 +10(climb) = 76
120sec - 5sec = 115sec in match to work with
20sec per trip * 5 trips = 100 sec of feeder station trips
5 trips * 4 volleys = 20disks
20 disks *90% accuracy = 18disks
18disks * 3 points = 54 points
At this point in the match there are 4 disks on the ground and 15sec before hanging.
4disks on ground * 3points= 12 points
54 points + 12 points = 66 points

Total teleop points: 84 points +76 points= 160 points

Total match points: 60auto + 160 teleop = 220 points

Example 2: “30 point climber” + “30 point climber”

Auto points: 18 + 18 = 36 points

Teleop for “30 point climber”: 54 + 30(climb) = 84 points

Total teleop points: 84 points * 2 robots = 168

Total match points: 36auto + 168teleop = 204 points

Example 3: “ground pickup” + “ground pickup”

Auto points: 42+30= 72 points

Teleop for “ground pickup”: 76 points

Teleop for “ground pickup” two: 64 points
See “ground pickup” in example 1 excluding the 12 extra points from picking up off the ground (because the first “ground pickup” robot got those.)

Total teleop points: 76 + 64 = 140 points

Total match points: 76auto + 140teleop = 216 points

Total match points without middle field auto: 60auto + 140teleop = 200 points

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In summary:

-The “ground pickup” + “30 point climber” is the most effective at 220 points.
-The “ground pickup” + “ground pickup” was the second most effective with 216 points.
-The “30 point climber” + “30 point climber” was the third most effective with 204 points.
-The “ground pickup” + “ground pickup” was the least effective if the second “ground pickup” could not get the disks in the middle of the field.

The scores are obviously very close. I think that both strategies are very evenly matched. If we had real teams competing in any of these scenarios it would come down to what the third robot did during the match.

Huh, longest post ever.
Regards, Bryan

Re: Floor pickup Vs. feeder station
 

Sounds like 1114 and 2056...

The scores that you estimated were just a little above the maximum that 1114 and 2056 scored. Perhaps robots getting in each other's way or defense made up for the difference.

Re: Floor pickup Vs. feeder station
 

Edit: or autonomous misses

Re: Floor pickup Vs. feeder station
 

Thanks for putting that analysis together!
I quoted these assumptions because defense crushes in teleop, and I have seen wk2 7pt autos to be less accurate in percentage than teleop, which is rarely a 90% in accuracy already.
I think that as the game progresses, autonomous will become more accurate, and matches will be more viciously defensive.
Staying around the safe pyramid as much as possible is a strategy made possible with a floor pickup as well. It also makes getting to the pyramid for climbing more reliable for a 30pt or even a 10pt climber as well.

Re: Floor pickup Vs. feeder station
 

That's assuming those are the only types of robots.
Obviously those are going to be common and effective, but you also have teams like 1986 with Pickup+Climb 30
I also think that your ground pickup bot could score even more if they got fed a couple discs fed across the field to them by either the third bot or the 30 Point Hanger.
It'll be interesting to see what other combinations teams come up with as we go into week 3 and beyond.
Some teams are looking at a full court shooter- usually a feeder station bot- with a bot playing counter-defense which could be a powerful strategy as well.
I think 2168 King-Tec did that, but I only heard that through word-of-mouth as I wasn't watching their webcast.
Anyway- cheers to strategy!

Re: Floor pickup Vs. feeder station
 

I wasn't trying to simulate an actual match, just compair the two "types" of robots people are generally arguing about. I believe that 90% accuracy is definatly achieveable in this game. As to cycle times I just picked a reasonable number. Your welcome to run any numbers using different cycle times. It would be interesting to see what percentage of points comes from auto, teleop, climbing based on different cycle times. It's also not that hard to calculate aproximatly how many disks a "floor loader" could shoot if being fed by, say, the 3rd pick robot.

Everything you say is true, except one thing. The robots in my example are not common. The floor loader scores 118 points per match. The 30 point climber scores 102. 1986 using the standards of my example is at 126 points/match, only 8 points higher. Their also appears to be great benifits to feeding (shooting downfield from the feeder station without the intent of scoring) because it would dirastically increase the speed with with the floor loader could score in teleop. All in all, we'll see a great variety of successful stratigy within the next couple weeks; I'm looking forward to see how it all pans out.

Regards, Bryan

Re: Floor pickup Vs. feeder station
 

Very true- even 1114 and 2056 weren't doing that- they were close- but not quite that much. Their third bot was also doing quite a lot- especially in auto- to help them get their massive score.

Re: Floor pickup Vs. feeder station
 

Ground pickup, totally.

For proof, ask Bellarmine, Team 254. They're at the top in California ranks and they have it.

Re: Floor pickup Vs. feeder station
 

You misspelled poof. :)

Re: Floor pickup Vs. feeder station
 

Actually, team 1678 is at the top in California ranks. It's kind of a moot point, though, because 1678 also has ground pickup.

Re: Floor pickup Vs. feeder station
 

When speaking of 254, the correct answer is usually "both." They very very rarely settle for not doing something that might be of strategic importance. Just because they have it doesn't mean that it was a good strategic compromise, it just means that 254 doesn't like to compromise.

But, 254 is one of the top ten, possibly top five teams in FRC. Needless to say, most teams are not. So for "the rest of us" which one is beter? I'd say a pickup is more valuable than a 30 point climber at this point in the season, although this could very well change by week 6.

The real proof? 254 has both and they only used one at San Diego. Not to say that both were perfectly functioning, but they chose to only perfect one.

Re: Floor pickup Vs. feeder station
 

Our team decided to go with floor pickup this year (I believe a video of it was posted earlier in this thread). It seems to have been working superbly so long as there are discs on the field. We decided on the ground collector before the rule change about only throwing colored discs rather than any remaining white discs at the end of the match, so in some of our matches, we were more starved of frisbees than we would have liked.

That being said, this was where strategy (ie. a feeder bot shooting a few rounds of discs over half-court) became invaluable to us.

Another point I want to mention is that in dire situations, we found that if our driver needed to come to the feeder station for some discs, they could be thrown out in advance, so the floor collector could scoop them up and just rush off to score. Although it is by no means a "perfect" maneuver, ground collectors can still collect discs from the feeder stations fairly quickly if needed.

Re: Floor pickup Vs. feeder station
 

Not the best example if you witnessed their matches, but yeah I kind of get what you're saying. I mean I should, with my team picking the same strategy that you seem to like and the poofs executed!

Re: Floor pickup Vs. feeder station
 

FRC Team 1501 can both floor pick up and Feeder Station receive.
We also can pick up inverted frisbees off the floor.

Re: Floor pickup Vs. feeder station
 

A single data point does not make represent statistical proof. One might argue that Simbotics does not have ground pickup, and their numerical performance far exceeds that of 254.

It all depends on what is right for your team, and your strategy.

It's all too easy to say 'look at this robot'.

As I said before - the difference between a good ground pickup and a fast wall drop is amazingly small. The major difference is that bots with no ground pickup suffer in auton.