30pt climb under 15 seconds
 

Everyone is saying how they have developed a 30 point hanging mechanism, but realistically how fast can u actually climb? Please share!

Re: 30pt climb under 15 seconds
 

This mech. could do 15 seconds easy if geared right!
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...hreadid=111773

Re: 30pt climb under 15 seconds
 

But how much space does that take??

Re: 30pt climb under 15 seconds
 

Seems like a very small amount, at least, from what I can see.

Re: 30pt climb under 15 seconds
 

one minute? we'll see pretty soon.

Re: 30pt climb under 15 seconds
 

about 40 inches

Re: 30pt climb under 15 seconds
 

I guess I'm just not seeing the point in teams going for a 30pt hang, most teams are taking a lot of there robot space for a climbing mechanism when you can make up for a 30pt climb in auto easily by scoring 3-4 disks plus an easy 10pt hang that can be done in less than 3 seconds and take up little space. Thoughts please

Re: 30pt climb under 15 seconds
 

Personally, we are planning to dump in low basket, and 30 point hang. We plan to be a straight elimination robot. Yes, their will be teams that score more than we do, but we will be completely out of their way in the elim. matches. They can do their thing and score like a maniac, and we can defend, feed, and hang.
(best thing about being at MSC)

Re: 30pt climb under 15 seconds
 

I dunno... 18 to 30 points auto. Plus around 30 in teleop. A quick 10 at the end. That 58 to 70 point shooter beats a 30 to 54 point climber. Maybe I'm just optimistic.

Re: 30pt climb under 15 seconds
 

My team is going for the climb based on past experience.

In 2012, we decided to try a shooter, and spent ~4 weeks prototyping our shooter. at competition, for more reasons than one, we ended up being a less than average shooter, and scored most of our points by balancing, and ended up not playing in eliminations. Then, at Cow Town Throw Down, after we had tried to renovate our shooter, we ended up placing nearly dead last, with only 1 win. This influenced our strategy this year. We determined that if we built a shooter than we would be a 'vanilla' robot, and not be playing in elims, just like last year.

So we decided if we could do this one thing, climb, than we could do better than many robots at STL regional and maybe have a chance at playing in eliminations. With new materials and sponsors this year, we think we can do it.

tl:dr: bad previous experience made us re-evaluate our game plan, and determine that a 30pt climb was our best chances at eliminations play.

Re: 30pt climb under 15 seconds
 

We learned last year that we shouldn't rule out parts of the game that seemed like they weren't worth going for. It kind of killed us at champs when all the short robots were balancing 3 on a bridge.

We will be doing the 30 point hang and it will be under 10 seconds. We may even bring up 4 of those colored disks at the end for bonus points. There's no turning back now, we're pretty dedicated.

Re: 30pt climb under 15 seconds
 

They need to go to feeder everytime, and that is where all the opponents are. I say: 18 points in auto(3 top, average), lets say 12 points in tele. (4 HP frisbees), 10 point hang vs. 6 points in auto, 6 points in tele. (4 HP frisbees), and 30 hang.
40 vs 42
(not counting the 4 Bonus disks)

Re: 30pt climb under 15 seconds
 

I think there will be some elite bots that can both shoot and climb for 30, but it will be rare. We are a second year team and have pretty much ruled it out. Not even sure we could climb for 30 as our only goal. That is a big challenge even with the appropriate design, engineering and manufacturing resources. I think that defense is a wild card, but you guys have more experience at this than I. Definitely looking forward to seeing some interesting designs this year.

Re: 30pt climb under 15 seconds
 

From a pure work / energy perspective, it should be very feasible.

Tossing out a few rough numbers:

200 lbs * 10 feet * 32 (feet / second^2) / (15 seconds * 12 volts) = 15 amps.

YMMV.

Why assume that a 30-point climber can't do the same points in auto as the 10-point climber?

Re: 30pt climb under 15 seconds
 

I think a shooter + 30pt climber will be rare. But, I could be wrong. I am hoping to see it. FRC teams can do amazing things.

Re: 30pt climb under 15 seconds
 

Ya why assume this? There is a good chance that some teams found a way to get a good shooter while still getting a 30 point hang ;)

Re: 30pt climb under 15 seconds
 

I'm just going by the average bot. I'm counting out 67, 1114, 254, etc. (just have to eliminate outliers) We all know they are going to have climbers and shoot. The average bot will either shoot poorly and get the 30 point hang, or shoot well and get the 10 point hang.

(and I'm sure Team Titanium is going to have an insane climber, and a great shooter. You guys always put out a kick-a** robot, but always seem to go under the radar.)

Re: 30pt climb under 15 seconds
 

A random 30-pt climber probably can't do the same autonomous points that the 10-pt climber which specializes in autonomous can. Probably. The robot geometry constraints & height of the low rung make this difficult (IMO).

Now, if it's a NASA team we're talking about ... all bets are off. If it's a team who had great success in previous years at doing all aspects of the game, then it's worthy of a raised eyebrow. Yet until we see 'bots in action, it's 'probably' a safe assumption for most robots who do a 30-pt climb that they can't also do a 7-disc autonomous.

Re: 30pt climb under 15 seconds
 

We decided that it would be better for us to focus on a great shooter and feeder first which we not have done. we left room for a floor intake(being proto typed) and climbing mechanism. i guess we are looking at things too much of a 1 V 1 robot match. It will be great to have two bots that can climb 30 and do auto and then one robot that has an amazing shooter, good auto(3-7 disk), 12-16 disk in teleop in 3pt goal, and a quick 10-20 pt climb (under 5 seconds). Now that is a great alliance. Granted there will be a few that all can climb 30 in under 10 seconds and shoot like crazy.

Re: 30pt climb under 15 seconds
 

Well I guess since Steve said we are going to do it, I guess we have to now...Should be fun!

Re: 30pt climb under 15 seconds
 

Our climber design is significantly faster than 15 seconds in it's raw form. In practice, we will likely slow it down to be closer to 15 seconds so it doesn't beat up the robot so much. It also takes up a lot of space on the robot so all our other components need to be well positioned.

Re: 30pt climb under 15 seconds
 

Faster than 15 seconds? I can't wait to see this elegant solution in action. Everything my team has brainstormed up we believe will take much more time than that...

Re: 30pt climb under 15 seconds
 

It's reasonably elegant but it's not earth shattering by any means. We are using pneumatic cylinders combined with springs and the extension/contraction time of the cylinders is a bit under 1 second each at full weight. We need to articulate a few times to travel up the full pyramid and that's that. As the compressor is slow, so we will be storing a ton of air on the robot initially to power the cylinders the entire way. It comes out to something like 6 seconds or so if you just let the cylinders go full speed. Our concern is that at each step the robot will "bounce" and at that speed, it could bounce off. So we will likely slow it down with flow restriction to make sure nothing moves too quickly.

-Mike

Re: 30pt climb under 15 seconds
 

Would you be able to share a video? If you dont mind me asking.

Re: 30pt climb under 15 seconds
 

Absolutely once it's machined and working on the actual pyramid in it's final form. It might all fail once the robot is all put together too :) Likely a week and a half or so away at our current rate before we publish anything huge. I bet we could show a lot of photos this weekend though.

-Mike

Re: 30pt climb under 15 seconds
 

That's a lot of air! It'll be impressive to see at the very least.

We entertained the idea of a climbing-only 50-point robot that did everything with stored elastic energy. It's well doable given the design constraints, but we want to be able to shoot, too...

Re: 30pt climb under 15 seconds
 

It will be impressive if it works and spectacular if it fails :) As for the air volume, we are very lucky that one of our engineer mentors has done a great deal with hydraulics and pneumatics and was able to help us out. The math is really quite simple in the end and based on how it worked we ordered cylinders we felt would be adequate. The good news is that we were able to test them on Saturday and they match the math quite well so there is a pretty high degree of confidence on that part of it.

One thing to note. The new tiny compressor gets VERY hot and we blew an air line on the high-side (120 PSI) due to the hot air softening the tube. Pretty loud POP when it's 18" from your head. We also had another line blow out of the little quick disconnect fitting unexpectedly due to it being warm and a little bit of wiggling. This has made us gear the design in such a way as to reduce the amount of tubing as much as possible. Anyone interested in pneumatics should look at McMaster-Carr, they have some very nice fittings rated high enough for what we are doing that will also reduce the number of parts needed.

-Mike

Re: 30pt climb under 15 seconds
 

How much room will your climber take? Does it still leave you room for a good shooter, feeder and/or ground pick up?

Re: 30pt climb under 15 seconds
 

Hand feeder, yes. Good shooter, kinda - a shooter that meets our needs, yes. Ground pick up, that was never a requirement for us.

-Mike

Re: 30pt climb under 15 seconds
 

Pictures? (nevermind, I really need to read the whole page before commenting...)

Re: 30pt climb under 15 seconds
 

I feel like a good auto will be the key this year.

Re: 30pt climb under 15 seconds
 

Our design does allow for 6 pts in auto - 3 discs into the lowest target.

-Mike

Re: 30pt climb under 15 seconds
 

Well, its worth as much as last year (Actually less because its 6,4,2 not 6,5,4) The exception is that the end game is more valuable this time around since one robot can score 30 points all by itself.

What makes people think that auton is more important than last year? (I ask because I dont remember people saying as much about auton last year)

Re: 30pt climb under 15 seconds
 

Speed and space aside for a moment, how much out of the robot total weight do these 30 pt. climbers take? (only parts\mechanisms relevant in climbing)

Re: 30pt climb under 15 seconds
 

I say because one robot can have a 7 disk auton. 7 disk in 3pt goal is 42 points and if you are that good of a shooter in auton then that translates over to teleop where you can probably dumb 3-5 loads in 3pt goal which is 36-60 points plus an easy 10 pt hang at the very least. That there is 88-112 points.

Re: 30pt climb under 15 seconds
 

There were 5+ ball autonomous last year, sometimes even 6. 7 discs this year is hard, because you immediately limit your starting configuration to under 30in, then you have to vision target the Frisbees if you want any sort of constancy, have a variable angle shooter to shoot immediately, and do all this on 15 seconds

Re: 30pt climb under 15 seconds
 

I believe it is easier in the fact that there is less of a variable in the form of counting on teams, 7 is hard but can be done, 9 takes too much time and you have to turn. This is all based on your robot though.

Re: 30pt climb under 15 seconds
 

I thought what would be really neat is if a team got a running start at the bottommost rung, snagged it with a hook, then used their forward momentum to swing the robot all the way around to inverted to catch a hook on the next rung, release the first hook, and continue rotation until the robot is again upright and hanging from the first hook - sort of like one of those toys that gracefully tumble down a window in reverse. Running the numbers, you'd only have to be going about 13 mph to pull it off (assuming 100% efficiency), and it would look so totally awesome. Plus, way under 15 seconds.

Sparks

Re: 30pt climb under 15 seconds
 

if 25 can wheelie the co-op bridge in auton why not? :)

Re: 30pt climb under 15 seconds
 

You might want to look into getting one of the older compressors. While they are heavier, I understand they're better rated for long duty cycles than the small ones.

Good luck, can't wait to see the video!

Re: 30pt climb under 15 seconds
 

We actually have two of the older compressors, and got the and one new off of FIRST choice. The reason we picked out was the thing is so much lighter than the other, at the cost of exactly what prevents this on the old design.

Re: 30pt climb under 15 seconds
 

I guess that depends on how you set up your robot to shoot into the goal...we are planning to have it contact the pyramid lower rung, in a way that lets us shoot from the same spot consistently, no need for vision targets or variable shooter angle. This is a big help for autonomous...even though we're not planning to do it in auto. We'll let other teams show how it's done.

Re: 30pt climb under 15 seconds
 

You can easily shoot from the same spot (Key/Fender anyone) but the trick to it is that you have to be shooting from that exact roughly the same spot. The multiball autonomous was "simple" because it was shoot two, straight back/ram bridge, straight forward while loading balls, shoot two+ from roughly the same spot. That gets more difficult this year because you could do start 3, forward 2, back shoot, BUT you'd have to go under the pyramid. It'd be simpler if you could shoot three, forward, shoot two from inside the pyramid for a 5 frisbee autonomous. 7 frisbee autonomous is trickier still, which is why I'm say it's more difficult. Compressing all this into 15 seconds is exponentially more difficult.

Re: 30pt climb under 15 seconds
 

I think you're forgetting the fact that there are three robots on an alliance. The game can't support three awesome shooters, just like last year. I know if we are fortunate enough to seed first in our regionals, and there is a RELIABLE 30 point climber that can play defense and (maybe) dump discs in the lowest goal, that they would be our first pick. Who would you pick? A robot who can climb AND drive around to play defense, or a robot who can just drive around?

Just a note to people designing 30 point climbers and plan to dumb in the low goal. Make it a priority to pick those discs up off of the floor. There are going to lots of discs on the floor from when (yes... when) the powerful shooting teams miss their shots. It's also a very good strategy to rob discs from the opposite side to disable an opponent who can pick up off of the floor. Trips back and forth from the feeding station are going to KILL your efficiency (think 2011) so they'll also kill your opponent's efficiency.

Re: 30pt climb under 15 seconds
 

In a poll asking where your team was going to climb, a team member from 2056 (I hope you know who that is) answered that they weren't going to even go for a climb.
I am 90% sure that the entire reason for the frame perimeter size change was to keep teams from doing everything well. The powerhouse teams are the the same boat as everyone else. They don't have space, and they have to make a choice: Climb or Shoot.

Re: 30pt climb under 15 seconds
 

Not really. We were able to make a very good shooter and decent climber and we have room for a floor pick up mechanism. It is all on how you design your robot. The key is not to package it all into a tiny area. The key is to making one thing do multiple tasks such as hot in 2012, there arm was used to pick up balls, balance, bridge assist, get over bump, and could also be used to pull the robot if there drive train failed. Just some thoughts.

Re: 30pt climb under 15 seconds
 

What that a poll on chief delphi? If so, was it a student or a mentor who posted it? any links?

Re: 30pt climb under 15 seconds
 

I think one thing that needs to be pointed out is that robots are not allowed to shoot in pyramid goal in auto. So max points from auto is 18

Re: 30pt climb under 15 seconds
 

Potentially 42 points with a floor pickup:)

Re: 30pt climb under 15 seconds
 

You can pick up from the floor. Please read and understand the rules before you go to your first competition. They are very important!

Re: 30pt climb under 15 seconds
 

Max USUAL points is 18. Floor pickup you can go as high as 42 in a standard match, and prossibly more if you can be fed by an alliance.

Re: 30pt climb under 15 seconds
 

Yes i know that you can pick disc up but with time constraints it'll be more rare to see a team score more then 18 in auto then a 30 pt climb.

Re: 30pt climb under 15 seconds
 

Where are you guys getting 42?

You can start by holding 3 and pick up 6 from the ground.

3+6=9
9*6=54

Re: 30pt climb under 15 seconds
 

You don't need to cross the center line to pick them up ;)

There's also a chance that there will be more frisbees in the middle due to teams not reading the manual properly = more possible points.

Re: 30pt climb under 15 seconds
 

and you can do this in 15 seconds?

Re: 30pt climb under 15 seconds
 

I believe we are talking maximum theoretically.

Realistically, I doubt that any single team will be able to score more than 30 points.

Re: 30pt climb under 15 seconds
 

Don't be too suprised.

2011: 2 tube auto's. 233 even had a 3 tube auto.

2012: 4-5 ball autos. Teams would get the balls off the center bridge. Some teams could even do the side bridge by the end of the season.

2013: ???

Re: 30pt climb under 15 seconds
 

2014: Profit!

Sorry had to... :)

Re: 30pt climb under 15 seconds
 

Just because they only start with 2 in auton does NOT mean they didn't read the manual correctly. Some teams may want to shoot closer in hopes of higher accuracy. Others may want to a shorter drive to the low goal so that they can dump. Don't just assume a team misreads the manual.

Re: 30pt climb under 15 seconds
 

While this is completely true, I believe there will be a decent amount of teams that won't realize the rule exists until after their first match.

Then again maybe I'm just a pessimist.

Re: 30pt climb under 15 seconds
 

got a 30 point climb in 25 seconds in raw form :)

Re: 30pt climb under 15 seconds
 

"raw form"?

Re: 30pt climb under 15 seconds
 

As opposed to cooked.

Re: 30pt climb under 15 seconds
 

Before changing gears, and reinforcing it.

Re: 30pt climb under 15 seconds
 

12 parsecs :ahh:

http://video.adultswim.com/family-gu...-han-solo.html

Re: 30pt climb under 15 seconds
 

Are we climbing a pyramid or making the Kessel Run!?

Re: 30pt climb under 15 seconds
 

How did you know we named our robot kessel? :yikes:

Re: 30pt climb under 15 seconds
 

I disagree,someone could do a consistent 7 disc auton, completely dead reckoned with just a gyro to keep you true straight and an encoder to give you distance. I see no need for vision code, but a variable angle shooter might be necessary, due to the time constraints.

Re: 30pt climb under 15 seconds
 

By the same logic there is really nothing stopping 9.

Re: 30pt climb under 15 seconds
 

This is very true! All I'm saying is, you don't need vision to pull off the 7+ autons

Re: 30pt climb under 15 seconds
 

Is anybody thinking about an unpowered climbing mechanism? There are five seconds after the buzzer before the match is scored...

Re: 30pt climb under 15 seconds
 

For a 10 point climber I'd say it'd be pretty easy (if by unpowerd you mean stored energy), however I'd have a hard time coming up with a 30 point stored energy climber. I'm sure HOT could do it. (I remember 2010 MSC, do you?)

Re: 30pt climb under 15 seconds
 

We came up with one. It only weighs 75 lbs!

Re: 30pt climb under 15 seconds
 

7 discs will be hard just by dead reckoning -- there isn't much room for error in the left/right direction in order to simultaneously pick up 2 side-by-side discs, given the sizing constraints this year. If the robot is too wide, then it will be short length-wise -- meaning not only will the bot risk tipping under high acceleration, there becomes a threshold where it's difficult to touch both the center of the pyramid rung and the autozone line while also being able to drive under the rung. In our design, the 54" cylinder hasn't been an issue; but maybe it is with others'. Thus, I think robots will at least need encoders &/or a gyro for some good old fashioned drive-straight code.

9-discs will be very tough to do. I've come up with 2 concepts and 1 high-level bot design that could do it, yet they limited the rest of the robot enough (for our abilities) that we went down a different path.

The bigger issue with a 9-disc autonomous is that it might not be pragmatic in every qualification match depending on the alliance setup. Essentially both alliance partners would need to be out of the way enough that the 9-disc bot has some margin of error when it re-crosses its starting position point at the back of the pyramid. Since the pyramid is only ~7.8' across the base, it may limit the dead-reckoning ability of an alliance partner if they want to start at the back of the pyramid. I think that some eliminations may have a few 5-disc mid field autonomous bots available such that a 9-disc autonomous isn't necessary (but having it as a backup plan is a plus).

However, at the more elite events where there are some non-moving autonomous partners, a 9-disc autonomous may make the difference in seeding #1 vs #2/3. Thus, the 9-disc bot is quite valuable yet should also have an alternative autonomous, IMO.

A 7-disc or 9-disc autonomous with a 10-pt hang totally trumps a 30-point hang with a 18-pt autonomous in any situation -- more than just by raw point values. The autonomous-leaning bots don't need to take the extra time to hang in teleop (ours is < 1 second and can be done while driving forward at full speed) and thus can probably score at least 1 hopper of discs in the final 15 seconds. This hopper alone doesn't make up for the teleop gap of a 30-point climb: the tradeoff of doing autonomous instead of climbing makes up for the gap.

Even with all of that said, a full alliance will need some combination of both abilities -- so it's not like anyone should scramble to change their robot to fit the other strategy. That's what makes this year quite fun for a strategist -- the game will require serious engineering tradeoffs for 99% of teams, meaning there will be a wide array of strategies to choose from when doing alliance picks.

+1

Re: 30pt climb under 15 seconds
 

How about a 10 point climber that doesn't use any stored energy.