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-   -   Ultimate Ascent - Most Difficult Ever? Too difficult? (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=111783)

Chris is me 22-01-2013 10:23
Re: Ultimate Ascent - Most Difficult Ever? Too difficult?
 
Quote:
do everything well in this game
This is your problem. In my opinion, FIRST has spoiled teams by repeatedly giving us two game tasks that can be combined together somewhat easily by the mid to top tier, so "do everything" has been an okay strategy. I don't think that's the case this year for many teams. Maybe the elite can do everything, but otherwise you've gotta specialize, or you'll just end up wasting time spreading yourself too thin.

How many teams "did everything well" in 2004? Not many. It's a little like that year in my mind. I hoped this game was hard enough that teams would recognize "doing everything" to be a bad idea. Paradoxically, the teams intimidated by the challenge into aiming lower will do *better* this year than they would in an "easier" year where they tried to do more.

If you're a classroom team working a few hours a week, why, why, WHY would you try to do everything!?!? It sounds like teams have bit off more than they can chew. For their benefit, I hope they spit something out sooner rather than later...

Tom Line 22-01-2013 10:42
Re: Ultimate Ascent - Most Difficult Ever? Too difficult?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris is me (Post 1219982)
This is your problem. In my opinion, FIRST has spoiled teams by repeatedly giving us two game tasks that can be combined together somewhat easily by the mid to top tier, so "do everything" has been an okay strategy. I don't think that's the case this year for many teams. Maybe the elite can do everything, but otherwise you've gotta specialize, or you'll just end up wasting time spreading yourself too thin.

How many teams "did everything well" in 2004? Not many. It's a little like that year in my mind. I hoped this game was hard enough that teams would recognize "doing everything" to be a bad idea. Paradoxically, the teams intimidated by the challenge into aiming lower will do *better* this year than they would in an "easier" year where they tried to do more.

If you're a classroom team working a few hours a week, why, why, WHY would you try to do everything!?!? It sounds like teams have bit off more than they can chew. For their benefit, I hope they spit something out sooner rather than later...
Quoted for truth. Look at the robot in 3 days design, and ask yourself if what you're designing is better, then compare the risks you are taking in complexity. We are benchmarking everything we do against that robot, asking 'will we score more than that robot with this feature, and how likely is this feature's complexity to cause problems'. If you can't reliably beat the 3 day robot with a given feature, ask yourself why you're using it.

rsegrest 22-01-2013 10:47
Re: Ultimate Ascent - Most Difficult Ever? Too difficult?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sanddrag (Post 1219887)
As a teacher, on top of my full time job, I've put in over 45 hours per week over each of the last two weeks (and so have some students) outside of the school day, and we're still behind. Being a real leader in this sport is a full time job, which is a lot on top of an already full time job.

Anyone agree with any of the above?
I aboslutely understand where you are coming from. I am a 6th year coach (with no engineering background except what I have learned in FIRST). Up until this year I had 1 engineer that worked with us (this year we finally have 5). I am the only coach and because we work out of my classroom I can't leave the kids with the engineer while I go pick up parts/supplies etc. (district rules). I am also a full-time teacher (4 class preps a day as I teach 4 different classes) and I don't know what insanity inspired me to do it but I returned to college this semester so tack on 2 senior level college classes to build/competition season.

We are what you would probably call an 'average' team but this is something we recognize and accept at this point in our development and it is mainly due to limited resources. It was with this in mind that we decided to focus all of our energy and talent on one aspect of the game. We are not financially able to attend more than one regional and know that it is our one shot at making championships but with a powerhouse field (Robonauts, Robowranglers, Cryptonite, Texas Torque, and Kaos just to name a few) making championships is difficult at best for teams like ours.

Is this the year your team focuses one doing one thing really well? Who knows, that's something you guys have to decide together but as far as the killer schedule and money that goes with this I absolutely understand where you are. All you can do is dig deep and know that there are other coaches in the same boat you are and we are all paddling together (or bailing the water out in some cases :p ). Know that you have our moral support and that at the end of the day, no matter what your team accomlishes, you are doing a great thing for kids and are admired by many.

If you ever just need to vent or bang your head against the wall (while wearing saftey glasses of course ::safety:: ) PM me and I will be happy to listen and/or offer advice.

Keep your chin up, your safety glasses on, and don't let the magic smoke out of the electrical components and you'll do just fine :)

coldfusion1279 22-01-2013 11:05
Re: Ultimate Ascent - Most Difficult Ever? Too difficult?
 
Definitely the toughest game in 10 years. The frisbees are easier than expected, but the pyramid is so far beyond a single bar hang.

Not that I have heard anyone complaining, but we should really relish the opportunity to make hard decisions. If a team doesn't want sacrifice 30 points for floor pick-up (for example) then the team has no right to say the game is too hard.

We embrace this game, because success will say a lot about the team.

RonnieS 22-01-2013 12:00
Re: Ultimate Ascent - Most Difficult Ever? Too difficult?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sanddrag (Post 1219887)
This is my 12th year in FIRST Robotics, and I'd thought the build had generally become somewhat routine, the games somewhat predicable, and I'd just about seen it all. But now in the third week of build season, I'm finding this very difficult. Even with the ability to rapidly make parts in-house and over a decade of experience of doing this, I'm finding myself doubting our abilities to get it all done by the deadline, and do everything well in this game, and keep the robot built to our standards of quality.

Over 2 weeks in and here's where we are:
Accurate prototype shooter.
Full welded steel pyramid about 90% constructed.
One goal and one feeder station constructed
All sprockets, bearing blocks, chain tensioners, and wheel axles machined
Gearbox designed
Prototype intake
Electronics mostly laid out, and wire routing planned
Base chassis mostly designed. Still need to design base pan.

Here's what scares me:
The climbing mechanism has not yet been designed for real in CAD
Neither has the shooter
Nor has the intake conveyor
Nor has the feeding mechanism
Nor has the storage area.
There are areas of our robot that could experience 600 lbs of force under certain circumstances.
All of the above I can see taking another full week to design.
And the really scary part, is I can envision a week straight of welding for 4 hours every night being necessary.

Fitting all this stuff into the new 112" frame perimeter has been a nightmare and a half. And I know there are others with more years in FIRST than myself who have mentioned the same difficulties.

If those of us with this much experience are having this much trouble with it, I fear for what the game will look like for teams of average standing. The teams who work out of a classroom or meet less than 20 hours per week are really going to struggle.

Is this the year one robot/team just can't realistically do it all?
Is combining the challenging game with the reduced size just too much to ask?
Is there any wayto be competitive at this without meeting every single day until midnight.

I've poured every neuron in my brain and dollar in my wallet into this over the past two weeks, and it doesn't seem any easier yet.

I think a lot of teams will really struggle this year, unless they decide to abandon any plans for hanging beyond 10 pts. The 20 and 30 point hangs will be very rare, especially for a robot that also shoots well.

Kudos to FIRST for really switching it up, but I feel this year has just taken a littletoo big of a step, to the point where the key members of a team are required to sideline the rest of their lives to be truly competitive in this sport. As a teacher, on top of my full time job, I've put in over 45 hours per week over each of the last two weeks (and so have some students) outside of the school day, and we're still behind. Being a real leader in this sport is a full time job, which is a lot on top of an already full time job.

I'm not saying I want an easier challenge, but if after 12 years and almost all the resources we could need, me finding it difficult makes me think it's terrifying if not impossible for many teams to do well in this year's game.

Anyone agree with any of the above?
We work out of a classroom and still are having great success this year, it is only what you make of it. Perks of being a Michigan team, plenty of teams to help you!

techedguy 22-01-2013 12:11
Re: Ultimate Ascent - Most Difficult Ever? Too difficult?
 
I'm a 5th year coach -- but of a rookie team at a new school. We're a technical school, so having some kids who know how to run equipment is great - but we're working pretty heavily with the KOP materials, some AndyMark products, and thankful a partner organization offered us access to a press brake to fold sheet aluminum in fun and interesting ways.

Our shooter is prototyped and now in CAD. Chassis is 70% prototyped and is in CAD. Climbing mechanism is a 'maybe if it fits' item that we're not viewing as essential.

I saw this game as throwing those 'swiss-army knife' teams a serious problem. Those who pull it off will of course be impressive, but many of us will focus on one aspect of the game and hope to build alliances that are multi-task capable instead of trying to do it all ourselves.

Best to everyone.

Pauline Tasci 22-01-2013 12:40
Re: Ultimate Ascent - Most Difficult Ever? Too difficult?
 
I think this game is just asking a lot.
But I believe they made this game because it's tricky.
In my opinion, the easy parts are whats going to determine the game.
FIRST knows its hard, they know its nearly impossible, and thats why they chose it.

In years past its the end game that makes you win (mini bot, bridge, ect) But I think this time they are trying to trick you.

Since the game is going to have such a low score, a simple dumper robot getting the 1 point goal will be the difference between winning a regional and ranking low.

Just an opinion.

pfreivald 22-01-2013 12:47
Re: Ultimate Ascent - Most Difficult Ever? Too difficult?
 
This game is absolutely *NOT* too difficult, but many teams will make it too difficult by biting off more than they can chew.

This game has more forced compromises in it than any I've ever been involved with, to be sure... And I'm not entirely convinced that we compromised the right way. Time will tell!

mikegrundvig 22-01-2013 13:31
Re: Ultimate Ascent - Most Difficult Ever? Too difficult?
 
I believe this is a hard competition. Last year our team started to embrace CAD and CNC as never before and it helped a lot in the end though too late to pull us through. This year, we went in assuming CAD and CNC was the default and it's helped a lot with our design.

We are going for a 30pt climb, 20 pt dump into the top of the pyramid, and 6pt autonomous dump in the lowest goal. We are also designing our dump system to support dumping into the lowest goal during the match as the time in the match permits. Our design is light-ish (90-95 lbs all up weight with bumpers and battery) and very fast due to gearing and weight.

I have total confidence in our design because it's not too complicated and uses super reliable components. With that said, getting it actually into CAD has proven to be a nightmare. The "precision" required in the design far exceeds anything our team has done before. This isn't due to tight tolerances but due to compound angles and strength requirements. It's easy to visualize but proven beastly difficult to get into CAD inside the dimensions of the robot. Ultimately, our entire robot will likely be CNC machined with welded gussets. It will certainly be pretty :)

The biggest thing that's helped us this year is one of our mentors repeatedly making sure we focus on the climbing system first and build the rest of the robot around it. The climber is large and sophisticated so everything else needs to be positioned around the climber to make things work. It makes for a very attractive design and has really helped us focus as needed. I imagine this is good advice for any team trying to build a specific-task robot.

JesseK 22-01-2013 13:39
Re: Ultimate Ascent - Most Difficult Ever? Too difficult?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikegrundvig (Post 1220041)
The biggest thing that's helped us this year is one of our mentors repeatedly making sure we focus on the climbing system first and build the rest of the robot around it.
The hardest part of watching videos online is reminding the team that we can't compromise our strategy just to get "XYZ" function into the robot.

mikegrundvig 22-01-2013 13:43
Re: Ultimate Ascent - Most Difficult Ever? Too difficult?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JesseK (Post 1220043)
The hardest part of watching videos online is reminding the team that we can't compromise our strategy just to get "XYZ" function into the robot.
Fortunately, climbing for 30 is the first and foremost part of our strategy.

-Mike

philso 22-01-2013 14:12
Re: Ultimate Ascent - Most Difficult Ever? Too difficult?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pfreivald (Post 1220028)
This game is absolutely *NOT* too difficult, but many teams will make it too difficult by biting off more than they can chew.

This game has more forced compromises in it than any I've ever been involved with, to be sure... And I'm not entirely convinced that we compromised the right way. Time will tell!

This seems to be the only year where I have seen a number of teams "putting all their eggs in one basket". I really hope that these teams do succeed since pulling off the 30 point climb since it is so technically challenging and so cool, like 118's bridge balancing mechanism. Our team, being only in it's second year, chose two modest forms of scoring so we would not be left with zero capabilities after a single failure.

Ian Curtis 22-01-2013 14:12
Re: Ultimate Ascent - Most Difficult Ever? Too difficult?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pfreivald (Post 1220028)
This game is absolutely *NOT* too difficult, but many teams will make it too difficult by biting off more than they can chew.
My favorite thing about this year's game is that it is quite obviously difficult. Just go on youtube and look for videos of dogs trying to pick up frisbees. Shooting frisbees is also non-obvious, and just thinking about climbing the period makes my head hurt. This makes it easier for smart teams to say, "Well, that's probably not worth our time" and build a robot that ignores one portion of a game.

Games that are non-obviously difficult (Breakaway) are less exciting to watch. Teams try and do everything because they think it will be easy, and then the devil is in the details and none of the mechanisms really work.

James1902 22-01-2013 14:16
Re: Ultimate Ascent - Most Difficult Ever? Too difficult?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Matteson (Post 1219927)
. I would say we are always competitive. We have no intention of changing this now.
Can I put in my nomination for understatement of the year?

This is undoubtably the hardest game I have seen in my FIRST career. And I have never been more excited/terrified to see the robot go from concept to completion.

I've also never been more proud of the FIRST community during build. The amount of sharing and openess from teams who find a solution that looks like it works is incredible this year.
I appreciate people like the Ri3D guys and the people at TwentyFourBlog making the case that your robot doesn't have to do everything to be a solid competitive robot. These resources could not have started on a better year.

This game is gonna be tough, but everytime FIRST has raised the bar the vast majority of teams have been able to clear it and then they turn around and lift up those who didn't quite make it. I expect nothing less this year.

ks_mumupsi 22-01-2013 14:29
Re: Ultimate Ascent - Most Difficult Ever? Too difficult?
 
I would agree with many of the comments made here, having done this since 2000. I think there have been hard years in the past including 2005 when we were trying to manage tetras and trying to see stacks of 9-10, we have never gone back to that complicated a game piece.

Except I guess the pyramid in the middle is just a big gigantic tetra... with its top chopped off.

I actually think because of all the experience and team sharing going on this year, with the shooter that level of competition will be notched up. It will not be enough just to have a really good frisbee shooter, robot in 3 days proved that a good shooter is not difficult to achieve this year if thought through and researched. A lot of teams have been helping and we have also been stealing ideas of shooter designs from other teams and prototyping.

However, because of what i have said above the differentiating factor this year will be climbing or a 469 (2010) type strategy if someone figures out how to shoot the full court from sitting in their home zone and just unloading 45 discs in a minute or so. (which i also think we will see designs for this year, effectiveness is yet tbd)

good luck we are just about half way there.


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