Chief Delphi - Is a Car Jack a legal item to use?

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Is a Car Jack a legal item to use?

I wanted to ask here before I asked on Q&A and see if it could get answered.

I was wondering if a car jack would be a legal item to use on the robot, out of the box.

Re: Is a Car Jack a legal item to use?

If you are talking about a hydraulic floor or bottle jack no.

Re: Is a Car Jack a legal item to use?

Quote:

Originally Posted by ksafin (Post 1224168)

No, more like a scissor jack:
http://www.harborfreight.com/1-1-2-h...ack-66907.html

That should be fine, as long as its usage satisfies safety considerations.

Re: Is a Car Jack a legal item to use?

I suspect the Q/A answer would be along the lines of:

The purpose of this forum is to clarify specific Rules. We will not do design reviews. The design would be legal if it complies with all applicable rules.

Re: Is a Car Jack a legal item to use?

Quote:

Originally Posted by ksafin (Post 1224168)

No, more like a scissor jack:
http://www.harborfreight.com/1-1-2-h...ack-66907.html

Is there a particular rule you read that leads you to believe it might not be legal?

Re: Is a Car Jack a legal item to use?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaxom (Post 1224200)

Is there a particular rule you read that leads you to believe it might not be legal?

I recalled someone specifying some rule about not being able to use components that fulfill some aspect of the design for you (ie buying a prebuilt launcher). I thought it may have applied since it does lifting on its own (it was a stretch, but I wanted to make sure).

Re: Is a Car Jack a legal item to use?

A Car jack is Considered a COTS Item. Therefore LEGAL. If anything bought for a purpose was illegal, then we wouldn't be aloud to use gearboxes.

Re: Is a Car Jack a legal item to use?

Quote:

Originally Posted by ksafin (Post 1224210)

This rule is non-existent. We purchased wheels (which satisfy an aspect of the design for us), of course we can use them.

Re: Is a Car Jack a legal item to use?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gregor (Post 1224287)

This rule is non-existent. We purchased wheels (which satisfy an aspect of the design for us), of course we can use them.

I didn't mean it on such a basic level - but if a team made a launcher and decided to sell it that seems questionable.

Re: Is a Car Jack a legal item to use?

Quote:

Originally Posted by ksafin (Post 1224289)

I didn't mean it on such a basic level - but if a team made a launcher and decided to sell it that seems questionable.

What do you define as a basic level?

Do you see what I mean, this rule doesn't exist. How do you define a "basic" level.

Re: Is a Car Jack a legal item to use?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gregor (Post 1224290)

What do you define as a basic level?

Do you see what I mean, this rule doesn't exist. How do you define a "basic" level.

I understand that it doesn't - just trying to clear up what I meant when I described the imaginary rule :P

Anything that fully or near fully plays a major aspect of the game - IE launches frisbees.

Kind of like purchasing a huge clay pigeon machine and sticking it on your robot would be suspect to question.

Re: Is a Car Jack a legal item to use?

Would an electric car jack like this one be legal as well ? My guess is that it's ok as long as the motor is on the approved list but I just wanted to confirm.

http://www.amazon.com/Black-Bull-EJ2...9520519&sr=8-1

Thank you!

Re: Is a Car Jack a legal item to use?

Quote:

Originally Posted by prismiko (Post 1224315)

I can't see a reason for it not to be legal as long as the motor you use is approved.

But if you're tossing out the motor anyway, you may want to go with the one I posted.

It's only $20 and it's reasonably easy to have a motor turn the winch to prop it up.

Re: Is a Car Jack a legal item to use?

Quote:

Originally Posted by ksafin (Post 1224168)

No, more like a scissor jack:
http://www.harborfreight.com/1-1-2-h...ack-66907.html

if your robot weighs 1-1/2 tons, you have bigger problems then the legality of that jack...

Re: Is a Car Jack a legal item to use?

Quote:

Originally Posted by ksafin (Post 1224168)

No, more like a scissor jack:
http://www.harborfreight.com/1-1-2-h...ack-66907.html

That would be legal (a little heavy). It's basically just a scissor lift. As long as it doesn't have hydraulics on it (hydraulics are specifically prohibited in the game rules) you can use it.

Re: Is a Car Jack a legal item to use?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gregor (Post 1224287)

This rule is non-existent. We purchased wheels (which satisfy an aspect of the design for us), of course we can use them.

While it's not a rule, it is in the manual. See section 1.5 of the game manual.

Quote:

One of the purposes of the FRC is to provide Team members with the experience of conceiving, designing, and constructing their solution to the annual competition challenge. We want each student to have the experience of creating a new system each year. As the Team considers the creation of their machine, this aspect of the program should be kept in mind. Solutions that merely bolt together a minimum number of externally-designed COTS subsystems may not offer the students the opportunity to understand the “why” or “how” of an item’s design. Likewise, solutions that are merely minor modifications of a design utilized for a previous competition does not offer the current students complete insight into the full design process. Purchasing optimization and design re-use are both important concepts; however, Teams must be cautious not to over-utilize them to the point that the student’s experience is compromised.

This intent is clearly met when a Team obtains a Mechanism or COTS items that was designed for non-FIRST purposes, and then modifies or alters it to provide functionality for the robot. For example, if a Team obtains a gearbox from a power drill and modifies it to use on the robot, they gain insight into the design of the original gearbox purpose, learn to characterize the performance of the original design, and implement the engineering design process to create their customized application for the gearbox.

However, COTS items that have been specifically designed as a solution to part of the FRC challenge may or may not fit within the FRC intent, and must be carefully considered. If the item provides general functionality that can be utilized in any of several possible configurations or applications, then it is acceptable (as the Teams will still have to design their particular application of the item). However, COTS items that provide a complete solution for a major robot function (e.g. a complete manipulator assembly, pre-built pneumatics circuit, or full mobility system) that require no effort other than just bolting it on to the robot are against the intent of the competition and will not be permitted.

In my mind, the car-jack is not a pre-built solution. You must still add some method for grabbing the pyramid. You must also add a method to motorize it. I think it's the same as the gearbox in the second paragraph.

Re: Is a Car Jack a legal item to use?

It seems to me that these products: http://www.andymark.com/Swerve-s/148.htm

are the type of thing targeted by that rule.

Re: Is a Car Jack a legal item to use?

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1075guy (Post 1224697)

It seems to me that these products: http://www.andymark.com/Swerve-s/148.htm

are the type of thing targeted by that rule.

That's a tough call. If a team has 12* talented, motivated programming students with only a few build students then those swerve modules are totally the way to go (for example).

*We have 12 unbelievably motivated programmers this year... how that happened no one knows...