Re: At what point does it become unacceptable for a mentor to design/build the robot
 

While Im hesitant to weigh in on a thread like this (and my views don't necessarily reflect my team's :yikes: ), someone a while back put this nicely.

With us, mentors basically function as students. Its quite a nice balance. Mentors are there to mentor, but Id say that doesnt really place them far above all the students on our team. We all work together, and while Ive learned alot from our mentors, and Im very thankful for that, Ive taught them a few things too, as well as our mentors learning from each other. Not all mentors are super experts. This segways (Ha...Ha ha... Segway :yikes: ) into our brainstorming. I find it hard to believe that some teams automatically put their mentors ideas before the student's purely because it came from an adult. Most of the ideas our team is using came from students, and when they come up, are evaluated the same way as mentor's ideas. You have it, now explain its feasibility, function, ect. to us. I mess up on our team, but our mentor's arn't infallible either.

I believe I got this from Karthik's (Sorry if I butchered that) from 1114 strategy video. Dont take people's word on things. Get the explanation, and have it make sense before you accept it as fact. It will help you more in the long run anyhow if you know why or how something occurs.

I love it, getting to work alongside real world engineers, and while I believe that having the mentors completely out of the building, more as observers and guiders, there is something to be said for working with these great people. Guess what (and though this isn't the goal of being a mentor), mentors like FRC too, its really fun to go through an engineering process so fast and have a working model (hopefully) in only six weeks. Our mentors want to design, build, and succeed just as much as us students do. I hate to do say it with these words but...We're all in this together.

Re: At what point does it become unacceptable for a mentor to design/build the robot
 

If your mentors don't like FRC, I don't know why they would ever continue to be in it. It has to be fun and engaging for everyone on the team to keep it surviving. Just as a team with no students can't survive, a team without mentors to bridge between the generations of students won't either.

I don't really have a whole lot to add to this discussion, but I will mention that sometimes mentors get very involved in the design or build because they themselves are not yet at a point to mentor effectively. Just as an anecdotal example, all of the engineering mentors on the team I am currently with come from an Electrical, Computer, or Systems Engineering background. Since Mechanical Engineering is not in any of our backgrounds we're sometimes learning ourselves during build season, which obviously makes it more difficult to effectively teach this information to the students as well. Maybe that's an aspect I like about FRC as well though... I don't get to work on mechanical designs in my job, and doing so in FRC is a good way to continue learning.

Re: At what point does it become unacceptable for a mentor to design/build the robot
 

Kusha and others,
I agree with Libby. There is something interesting I have observed while participating in FLL and my time so far in FRC this year (this is my first year in FRC). I wish EVERYONE would have a professional mentor like my FLL mentor who is an engineer at a large agricultural company here in Iowa. He is one of the few that lead by posing questions for us students to answer. I envision FTC to be kind of the same way as FLL since everything is pretty much plug and play. But when it comes to FRC, this is a much more complicated challenge that teams are only given 6 weeks to solve. If you don't like how something is done, don't be afraid to speak up. I encourage you to try to get your team members to start leading instead of the mentors, and once you have team member ownership and leadership, the team can adjust along the scale as they see fit. Another option is to try to join a youth organization like 4-H where we actually encourage this kind of learning and youth-adult partnerships.

Hope this helps and good luck!
David

Re: At what point does it become unacceptable for a mentor to design/build the robot
 

This is an excellent comment and deserves its own thread. A healthy discussion on the topic of mentoring effectively - and what that means - would be an excellent discussion, I trust.

Jane

Re: At what point does it become unacceptable for a mentor to design/build the robot
 

I was just having a similar discussion with Chris Picone the other day. We were saying how one of the best compliments we could get on our teams (this may not be the case for all teams, and that is perfectly okay) is when people make the comment that something is "mentor built." I think that's when we've done our jobs well. Now, obviously these comments can be repetitive and annoying for students/mentors to hear overtime (1114, 254..etc.) but I think for new mentors it might be considered an accomplishment depending on how your team is run.

Hope that wasn't off-topic. Carry on.

Re: At what point does it become unacceptable for a mentor to design/build the robot
 

Definitely. If anyone comments on how well made our robot may be this year, or how much us mentors seem to have built, I will be very flattered. Truth be told, it's the students that work the hardest on these robots. The students I work with are taking the initiative not only to design completely, but also make the robot aesthetically presentable and pleasing.

Re: At what point does it become unacceptable for a mentor to design/build the robot
 

Mentor design and build of a robot becomes unacceptable when this excludes the team from meeting all of its goals, both on the field and off the field. This is largely up to the team, but many teams have performance goals as well as general goals. It's safe to say that any team in FIRST strives to inspire its members and others. The level of mentor involvement or control is unacceptable when it stops inspiration from happening. There is definitely a balance, and it might be different for each team. If students on the team are thinking "Wow, this robot stuff is really cool!" or "<Mentor> is really awesome, I want to do things like him/her!" then you're doing something right.

Re: At what point does it become unacceptable for a mentor to design/build the robot
 

Of course, sometimes "Mentor Built" means the exact opposite of what some people think... One of our students has been doing an awesome job of designing and building one of our mechanisms this year. Well, last night a shaft got stuck and we needed to pull it out. After about half an hour of hammering, twisting, and otherwise abusing the robot, myself and another mentor finally got it out (the shaft actually still has the bearing stuck on the end). The students did nothing but complain the rest of the night about how "the mentors dented the robot!" Sometimes "Mentor Built" isn't all that pretty :)

Re: At what point does it become unacceptable for a mentor to design/build the robot
 

On a less serious note, last week our controls mentor picked up a hand drill to make some new holes for repositioning a piston.

It was a scary sight, and halfway through the process I said "Wait, why does he have a drill in his hands?"

Re: At what point does it become unacceptable for a mentor to design/build the robot
 

We try to maintain a very good balance. Our teacher sponsor described it very well once as kinda like an apprenticeship program.

Just like I can't turn a 1st year loose inside a piece of 480V switch gear to rack breakers or play with the protective relaying we can't have freshmen running a muck with a plasma torch. ::ouch::

For potentially dangerous tasks the students have to watch a mentor do it a few times and listen and learn, for must stuff we work next to the students and explain and teach as they go and learn. offering advice and pointing out potential issues, better options, whatever.

Re: At what point does it become unacceptable for a mentor to design/build the robot
 

Simply asking the question shows that there is a frustration with "mentor" built robots. Mentors must be aware when students are potentially being overlooked. Students by nature have a lot to contuibute and are more responsive to new ideas and designs. What they may lack in engineering skills is made up for in creativity. Not all design ideas are practical, but that goes for mentor ideas also. Mentors should always be open to student ideas and nurture their desire to be involved. If student members are not active involved in the robots construction we will lose their commitment to FIRST an possibly move on to other activities in which they feel that they are active participants. This would be a great loss to the FIRST program. I have never been a fan of comparing FIRST to Sports, it's like comparing apples to oranges. It would appear that we all have to work harder to keep our apples from becoming oranges

Re: At what point does it become unacceptable for a mentor to design/build the robot
 

I think that every time this thread comes up, everyone on Chief Delphi should reply with:

"You worry about your team. Let other people worry about their own teams."

Re: At what point does it become unacceptable for a mentor to design/build the robot
 

Is is permissible if students just step back and watch the mentors beat the dead horse?

Re: At what point does it become unacceptable for a mentor to design/build the robot
 

It's best to decide that on a team-by-team basis. ;)

Re: At what point does it become unacceptable for a mentor to design/build the robot
 

I disagree. If there is a team that is doing a disservice to its own students by not giving them as much as FIRST should be giving them, I don't think the rest of the community should ignore it. Most students aren't able to choose their own teams or do anything about a situation in which mentors are doing much more than they should.