Team 2992 - 30 pt Climber - Top target dumper
 

We have completed enough of our robot to finally showcase how we are gonna climb to 30 pts and dump frisbees on the top for 20 pts.

This week we will be finishing the wiring and plumbing and doing the final Cg adjustments to make it work.

To begin, this link takes you to a simulation we performed on the CAD robot to show everyone how we expect it to climb.

http://youtu.be/l7z5QPjqEAk

Our other video shows us doing the first 2 levels to make sure that the robot, as built, performed as required. You will notice weight cupcakes zip tied all over the robot to make sure our robot is at the proper weight and Cg.

http://youtu.be/CbTblcCOoS4

We plan to have the robot climbing under its own brains this weekend and when we get video of that, I will post it to this topic.

Enjoy! We look forward to your comments and questions.

Re: Team 2992 - 30 pt Climber - Top target dumper
 

...wow....speechless. If you can get that to do it fully on its own it will be beautiful to see. How far are you guys along on the dumper part and does it stay legal?

Re: Team 2992 - 30 pt Climber - Top target dumper
 

Very very cool. Hope to see final video of it scoring soon.

Re: Team 2992 - 30 pt Climber - Top target dumper
 

The dumper is done and just needs plumbing. This weekend will include a test of how it performs. This weekend is gonna be our full up system test if we can keep from running into show stoppers.

It easily meets the geometry and weight rules and stays within the 54" cylinder. All our valves, tanks, pistons and such are rated 150 psi working. As far as we can see from reading the rules it should stay legal. :-)

Re: Team 2992 - 30 pt Climber - Top target dumper
 

So is this gonna be your team's thing? Climb to 30 and then dump 4 or will you be able to score other discs before climbing?

Re: Team 2992 - 30 pt Climber - Top target dumper
 

We had a strategy meeting at the beginning of our season and discussed the maximum points we could deliver given our limited resources. During that strategy meeting we figured a consistent 50 pt robot would be a good alliance teammate for nearly every game. The rest of the time we will be playing defense.

We have been focusing on reliability and robustness because the climb and dump is such an all or nothing approach.

This year has been very exciting for us. My fellow mentor and I personally like these years where it is extremely difficult to do it all and forces specialization.

For instance during Rack and Roll we concentrated on the ramps for our robot and were very happy with that consistent 60 pts.

Re: Team 2992 - 30 pt Climber - Top target dumper
 

They won't need to score other discs before climbing...They'll be a sure bet for a third pick, at least.

Great Job!!

Re: Team 2992 - 30 pt Climber - Top target dumper
 

This was essentially our strategy for almost the first half of build, but we chickened out. Great job! I think you will be a first round pick at every event you attend, and definitely a second round at Champs, if you have the climb and dump consistent enough.

Re: Team 2992 - 30 pt Climber - Top target dumper
 

Heck, 50 points per match, they may seed #1 at every regional they attend.

Re: Team 2992 - 30 pt Climber - Top target dumper
 

Why dump only 4?

Take 2x 3pt penalties and score the last two colored discs too. Still a net gain of 4 points.

Re: Team 2992 - 30 pt Climber - Top target dumper
 

It was designed during week one when it still had to stay inside a 54" vertical cylinder. It easily stayed inside the original 54" vertical cylinder, including the "swing" from one bar to the next. The rule change at the end of week one allowing the cylinder to stay "robot oriented" didn't affect us.

Re: Team 2992 - 30 pt Climber - Top target dumper
 

This is an excellent strategy. I wasn't understanding why you would go with such a complicated dumper until I read this, and now it seems brilliant. Can't wait to see all the systems in action together!

Re: Team 2992 - 30 pt Climber - Top target dumper
 

The risk is a bit higher than that according to this Q&A:

https://frc-qa.usfirst.org/Question/...it-of-the-game

There's a potential yellow or red card involved with this strategy.

Re: Team 2992 - 30 pt Climber - Top target dumper
 

One of our mentors brought up a design that could have looked exactly like that! Hope it works out for you :)

Re: Team 2992 - 30 pt Climber - Top target dumper
 

Have you calculated how long it will take to fill your tanks needed air volume between matches (using only one legal compressor) and how long the climb will take? Turnaround can be 10 minutes or less during elims...

Re: Team 2992 - 30 pt Climber - Top target dumper
 

Is it illegal to have pre-loaded air tanks and then just swap them out after every match? Then you could be loading them back up during matches and then just get a rotation just like teams already do with batteries.

Re: Team 2992 - 30 pt Climber - Top target dumper
 

A strategy designed around intentionally taking penalties is a good way to get a red card. It's one thing to occasionally take a protected zone penalty or similar during a match and have it turn out to have a positive effect for your alliance (tubes in lanes in 2011 is a good example), but building a robot around doing so will violate the perennial "spirit of the game" rules.

Still, it's not a good idea to design a game where breaking the rules helps you. GDC should have written the rule so that each extra disc is penalized according to the maximum amount of points it could score. White discs cost 3 points, and coloured discs cost 5.

Re: Team 2992 - 30 pt Climber - Top target dumper
 

Better than calculated we have run a full up systems test of the pneumatic system because we were very aware of the 5 minutes you have in the later elimination rounds to reset your robot.

We are running at 4 minutes 30 seconds with the legal big compressor. Volume of air, Cg, and weight were some of the big design drivers in order to get the robot we designed to work.

We felt comfortable showing off our design in week 4 because for someone to copy it at this point they would pretty much have to scrap everything they have. The whole robot was designed for this one purpose and just adding a couple of lift cylinders and a lot of air storage to an existing robot won't get you the 30 pts.

We won't truly know how long the climb takes until we can do a full up system test this weekend, but we were shooting for 30 - 45 seconds maximum.

Re: Team 2992 - 30 pt Climber - Top target dumper
 

Is it legal to use your dumper in the bottom goal?

Re: Team 2992 - 30 pt Climber - Top target dumper
 

Yes, that would be considered illegal. All compressed air must be provided by the one compressor used for the robot (either on-board or off-board, not both), and be charged but the robot battery while under cRio control - essentially, you have to have your robot sitting there in order to charge your tanks.

Further, I would question the safety of moving, handling, and mounting air tanks while they are fully pressurized.

Re: Team 2992 - 30 pt Climber - Top target dumper
 

I have not seen any rule against 'breaking the plane' of the front of the goal. I was surprised not to see it. Perhaps the GDC remembered the lessons from inadvertent violations in 2006 with the floor goals.

Re: Team 2992 - 30 pt Climber - Top target dumper
 

Well if it isnt illegal, then they could, technically, score up to 56 points per match if they have an auto into the bottom goal.

Re: Team 2992 - 30 pt Climber - Top target dumper
 

I don't see why having a large number of tanks would be illegal. The conditions your describe aren't mutually exclusive with having many air tanks. A team could simply fill them up on practice day or during breaks. However, an additional condition would have to be added: all tanks used count toward the weight limit, not just the number that would be on the robot at once.

Re: Team 2992 - 30 pt Climber - Top target dumper
 

It's awesome to see that we aren't the only ones that decided to go with this idea. I love your design over ours though ;) . I'm thinking if we get matched up at Bayou, it's going to be a race to see who can climb and score 50 the fastest!! Or better yet, we might complete one of the first double 30 pt climbs!!! Now I can't wait for Bayou to get here!! See you guys in a little over a month and we look forward to see the final design!! :D

Re: Team 2992 - 30 pt Climber - Top target dumper
 

Pretty sure it will be too crowded at the top for two inside climbers of the size represented in this thread...

Re: Team 2992 - 30 pt Climber - Top target dumper
 

Sorry I didn't clarify. Our design is to climb from the outside and dump with an arm. We thought about going under and climbing from the inside but we couldn'd come up with a design to score the frisbees like 2992 has. A dumping arm was really simple for us to go with and it also allows us to score in the low goal as well if needed. We've got pictures of what we've come up with so far on our Facebook page.

https://www.facebook.com/TigerbytesRobotics

Re: Team 2992 - 30 pt Climber - Top target dumper
 

If air volume is an issue, scrap the 2" cylinder in lieu of a smaller bore. Make up for the loss of force via constant-force springs. It'll take some calculations to ensure you're still where you need to be. The tradeoffs would be cost (need to purchase new cylinder(s)) & space (CFS's are 2" wide for that amount of force) versus air consumption. Weight & c.g. will probably be about the same.

I love that CAD animation. It's probably the coolest thing I've seen all season.

It will be interesting to see what happens with all of the center-based 30-point climbers. It's also interesting to see that there haven't been any tangible claims (photos, video, sketches of ideas) of a corner-climber yet.

Re: Team 2992 - 30 pt Climber - Top target dumper
 

The process originally described was to load tanks during the match, which would imply that the robot (including battery and cRio) were not part of the process, thus illegal. I would still be extremely concerned about safety, even if everything was loaded up from the robot. That safety concern (handling and mounting pre-charged storage tanks) could very well be enough to cite R08.

Re: Team 2992 - 30 pt Climber - Top target dumper
 

In the past the rules have been such that you must use the battery you plan to use during the match. I haven't seen a Q&A about it this year, so I am not sure if that is still the correct ruling. R80 is unclear.

I can't wait to see this at Bayou.

Re: Team 2992 - 30 pt Climber - Top target dumper
 

I am concerned the way your dumper works that you won't actually get the points for all those discs.

See this Q&A.

Q314
Q.If several DISCS are stacked on top of each other in the PYRAMID GOAL, but the top DISC in the stack is completely above the yellow horizontal opening (in the illustration) due to the lower DISCS in the stack holding up the top DISC in the stack, would that top DISC be considered scored?
A.No. Please see Section 3.1.5.1.

You might want to make sure they're stored at a slight angle so when you release them they spread out.

-Bernie

Re: Team 2992 - 30 pt Climber - Top target dumper
 

Yeah, you're probably right with that safety concern. It'd probably be an inspector's call, which you are and I'm not, so I'll take your word on how big a concern that is.

Re: Team 2992 - 30 pt Climber - Top target dumper
 

Thanks for the concern! The dumper design was updated since the simulation run. Our trapdoor only falls open to 45 or 60 degrees depending on tests this weekend so that the frisbees all slide out. We hope that the angle and sliding momentum will be enough to keep them from stacking higher than the target line.

On another note, I personally feel that is a stupid rule/interpretation. I figure there are only 6 frisbees that can score and as long as they are within the horizontal component of the target box they should count. It is not trivial to get them up there and it seems to penalize those that are trying for the hardest goal.

Re: Team 2992 - 30 pt Climber - Top target dumper
 

Darren,

Great to hear you've already tackled a rule that is clearly making a tough goal even tougher.

I like the way you've tackled this years challenge.

-Bernie

Re: Team 2992 - 30 pt Climber - Top target dumper
 

Great job. My suggestion for the last two weeks is to beef up your drivetrain, if you can. Traversing the field to get colored discs will be the hardest part once you have a target on your back. It's nice to be able to plow through. Good Luck.

Re: Team 2992 - 30 pt Climber - Top target dumper
 

Just want to say..Excellent job. 50 points consistently is huge during qualifiers and will most certainly have you in the elims, maybe even doing the picking. Hope to see you at Worlds since we compete in MAR.

Re: Team 2992 - 30 pt Climber - Top target dumper
 

Very freaking cool! We spent a lot of time deliberating on what we wanted to do this year.

This an awesome robot.

Re: Team 2992 - 30 pt Climber - Top target dumper
 

A great suggestion and one we had planned to do, but our final weight and Cg requirements probably won't allow us to do much in this respect.

We are counting on the smaller perimeters, the safe loading zones, the pinning rules, and being able to drive under the pyramids to allow us to make the one trip across the field we need.

I don't envy the good frisbee shooters that may need to make multiple trips across the field.

Re: Team 2992 - 30 pt Climber - Top target dumper
 

Your robot is definitely awesome, but this post is even more impressive. It seems like you've really put a lot of thought into your entire strategy, both at the global level, and the step by step level, and for that I applaud you. Good luck wherever you end up.

Re: Team 2992 - 30 pt Climber - Top target dumper
 

This is awesome, it was also our plan until we realized that only 1 or 2 robots can fit inside the pyramid at the top level...


This will be awesome in qualifications, but in eliminations it makes it so you cannot pick any other inside climbing team and have them climb. GL

Re: Team 2992 - 30 pt Climber - Top target dumper
 

I definitely agree with this. We've discovered a similar challenge with this scoring strategy and I feel that this is an obsurd limitation. Like you said, getting frisbees in that 5 point goal is not trivial (it is, in fact, the most difficult goal to score in). Having another limitation to the effectiveness of tackling the toughest of challenges, head on, seems counter intuitive to say the least. Hopefully, a rule update will be released prior to competition that remedies this.

All-in-all, great design, guys! Very impressive, and good luck at the competitions!

Re: Team 2992 - 30 pt Climber - Top target dumper
 

While this is true, I would be willing to bet that the number of frisbee shooters to dedicated climbers will be at least 3 to 1. We figured that if we found a niche that we could do consistently then we would find ourselves 2 other partners to work with come eliminations.

We leave the entire autonomous to those floor feeders without getting in the way, and stay out of the way of others scoring. I would be willing to bet that the winning teams will have one floor pickup autonomous, two good scorers and 1 climber. Otherwise you end up getting in each others way and that can lower your scoring potential.

I think the GDC purposely built a game that will award a team of specializations as opposed to 3 good shooters. What is better a football team of all good quarterbacks, or one with a good quarterback, and good offensive lineman, and good receivers?

Re: Team 2992 - 30 pt Climber - Top target dumper
 

There is no rule that says you can't change batteries after filling up your tanks; see this post from Big Al: http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...9&postcount=24

Re: Team 2992 - 30 pt Climber - Top target dumper
 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vjifzv5Oago

Not sure if you've seen this yet, or how tangible you consider it to be but it looks like this team has a corner climber.

Re: Team 2992 - 30 pt Climber - Top target dumper
 

Hello, I want to know what type of piston did you use and its specifications?

I thank you and I await your reply! :o

Re: Team 2992 - 30 pt Climber - Top target dumper
 

2 inch diameter Bimba cylinders. If you do the math at 60 psi they can push 180 lbs and pull something like 155 lbs.

Re: Team 2992 - 30 pt Climber - Top target dumper
 

How long is the stroke?

Re: Team 2992 - 30 pt Climber - Top target dumper
 

what is the details of your dumper? I know there are only 10 days left but I'm thinking about adding one to our climber and using our shooter while hanging under the basket just wont work.

Thanks

Re: Team 2992 - 30 pt Climber - Top target dumper
 

For those asking for specific details we are leaving those as exercises to the reader. We will comment generally about most things and love strategy discussions but we aren't the open source robot. :)

That said, we do like to release full shot videos instead of teasers and we even have a drawing up in one of the posts so if you want to reverse engineer us than more power to you. Today we should have our robot climbing under its own power but to tide you over till we get video up here is a link to our dumper test.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08Z1MCXRWqU

Re: Team 2992 - 30 pt Climber - Top target dumper
 

That is a huge air tank...

Re: Team 2992 - 30 pt Climber - Top target dumper
 

Thank you for posting your videos and drawings for all to see. What your showing may inspire some of have similar designs to this point and may need that extra push towards getting it complete and together. Sharing ideas is a wonderful way to improve our competition.

Re: Team 2992 - 30 pt Climber - Top target dumper
 

We have a new Twitter page, and in an effort to promote that, you can see our latest video sneak peek over there.

Footage was taken yesterday in our schools' cafeteria and features our first full 30-point-climb test.

Re: Team 2992 - 30 pt Climber - Top target dumper
 

Wow! I'm impressed by the speed and how well it works with bumpers on. Congratulations on the incredibly elegant design.

Re: Team 2992 - 30 pt Climber - Top target dumper
 

That looks pretty slick! It seems like it takes a lot of coordinated movements, is the sequence automated, or is it all on the drivers? I would suggest some automation if you don't already have it, because missing a step in the heat of a match could be a 50pt mistake. Perhaps just something as simple as coding each step sequence and having the driver click through each step once he/she is assured that it's ready.

Do you have a method of lining up so that you're not too far to the corner that you can't complete the climb, but not too far to the middle that your basket can reach around?

Also, congrats on the accomplishment! If I'm not mistaken, this is the first full robot climb video shown with bumpers on and all systems on board.

Re: Team 2992 - 30 pt Climber - Top target dumper
 

That's a crazy robot you've got there :ahh:

Re: Team 2992 - 30 pt Climber - Top target dumper
 

Awesome performance! Very well done guys. Congrats :D

Re: Team 2992 - 30 pt Climber - Top target dumper
 

I gave a little applause when you guys finished the climb.

Is there a method of lining up for the hang? Camera/limit switches?

Re: Team 2992 - 30 pt Climber - Top target dumper
 

Yesterday was a lot of fun! To answer some of the questions I am seeing, we will have a camera to line up in the center of the pyramid with a simple elegant secret system to make sure we are centered.

Yesterday was the first system check and was done all manually. Now that we have the proper steps written down from our shakedown cruise and the approximate time to stroke the cylinders we will be automating the climb as much as possible.

The video was pretty unedited and raw so you saw some of our learning curve which I find as helpful as a perfect climb. The pizza box all works except for the latch but we didn't have the final mechanism for yesterday so we ran it anyway with a quick latch we could put on to get a feel for its failure mechanisms.

I see we got one of our students officially posting to Chief Delphi and I want to pat him on the back for a great video!

Re: Team 2992 - 30 pt Climber - Top target dumper
 

This robot is so cool. I'm extremely excited to see how it performs at your first event and I'm sure a lot of others will be watching as well. Good luck!

Re: Team 2992 - 30 pt Climber - Top target dumper
 

Nice system, but in the video I see a person pushing the robot for it to be able to climb. Are you having issues with weight balance?

Re: Team 2992 - 30 pt Climber - Top target dumper
 

It is extremely close, we need to add about a pound to the front and extend our harpoon hooks 1/2 inch, both of which we are doing this week. The advantage to getting the robot done enough to shakedown cruise it is that it gives us a week to tweak, break, repair and improve. Also paint, its all torn apart right now for paint and then final reassembly.

Re: Team 2992 - 30 pt Climber - Top target dumper
 

Great Job!

Re: Team 2992 - 30 pt Climber - Top target dumper
 

I got another video of the speed climb from a different angle and it can be seen here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4jFCD...ature=youtu.be

And for those that missed our previous fully edited teaser in the previous post from one of the students here is that link again as well:

http://t.co/uZsshcWD

Re: Team 2992 - 30 pt Climber - Top target dumper
 

This looks really good!

It's easy to sic a good defender on you from the very beginning and delay you for a full minute, thereby at least negating 20-30 points. This would particularly hurt if that defender were great at autonomous and could hit a 10-point climb with ease. Thus, I think from a strategy perspective you should should get the climb to sub-30 seconds in order to maximize the time available to get 4 discs and get back to the pyramid.

Re: Team 2992 - 30 pt Climber - Top target dumper
 

You are really trivializing defense here! By no means is blocking this robot "easy".

Let's assume with training and practice they get their climb down to ~30 seconds. All this robot has to do in 90 seconds is drive from one protected zone to another, receive discs in the protected zone, and then drive back. Yes, some defense will slow them down, but do you really think it's "easy" for a robot to defend against a field crossing for *45 seconds* each way? Even with a much more conservative 60 second lift, a full minute of blockade defense is still absurdly difficult.

Re: Team 2992 - 30 pt Climber - Top target dumper
 

I don't want to steal the reveal video thunder but since that is gonna be a while before it gets put together cause the students are focused on the website now, I thought I would get some more media out in this thread. We'll start a new thread for the official reveal.

So we have been climbing and dumping since last Wednesday and it has been killing me not showing something and I can't take it any longer. :-)

Here is our first complete practice run with a full climb and dump:
http://youtu.be/-Blb_dLLXf8

Yesterday we had a big Bag and Tag party and some of the parents and teachers of the students showed up to watch us demonstrate what we built this year. Here is the last demo from one end of the practice area:

http://youtu.be/ifI97mHWaeE

We have practiced our climb about a couple dozen times, and the student doing the switches is getting better and better. In previous posts we said we were gonna automate the climb, but after competing auto versus student wetware, the student won. Auto has to be set up for the worst case scenario in order to not miss the climb, the student can evaluate on the fly.

This year has been extremely thought provoking and fun and we hope to have a good time at the Bayou Regional.

Good luck everyone!

Re: Team 2992 - 30 pt Climber - Top target dumper
 

That dumper is fun to watch. Nice use of the pool noodle (?) to stop swinging quickly.

Re: Team 2992 - 30 pt Climber - Top target dumper
 

Very nice machine. I was wondering about the dumper at first. Your test pyramid doesn't have the vertical centerpost with chains, so you might not be able to get the box all the way to the center. Maybe you will get far enough though to get the trapdoor open. A little shake/wobble might be needed to let the 'bees out!

Re: Team 2992 - 30 pt Climber - Top target dumper
 

It isn't a pool noodle, it is insulation for plumbing actually. :-) It has multiple purposes on our robot and you only outlined one.

As for our goal not having the posts and chains, our simulation showed us to be good on making the goals, and also we tip our frisbees in at 45 degrees so all we have to do is just get our dumper to the edge of the target and the frisbees slide in. Thanks for the concern of course!