regualtion of nationals (team # limits)
 

In future years (next)
nationals will be limited to the top ten individual scorers or a combo of top scoresrs and top 4 alliance from each regional


any plausibility of this???


Dahl

I think that FIRST will have to start limiting the nationals in some way, if not this year then the next year.

I still haven't figured out what I think the best way to do this will be, but I think they should try to include as many teams in the nationals as possible. Since they were able to accomodate more than 300 teams this year, FIRST should aim to have at least 300 teams at the nationals.

I think you should include not only the top seeds from the regionals, but their alliance partners as well. I also think that teams that did well on the chairmans award should be able to go to nationals and get their award. I also think that the judges at each regional should have a certain number of slots to fill with what they beleive are the most deserving teams, using whatever criteria they want.

I hope that FIRST doesn't decide to go to a small nationals that loses its luster.

Been said before, but worth saying again.
 

I don't think nationals can be limited based on preformance at regionals. The logistics of planning a trip to Florida in 3 weeks are horrendous. Plane tickets would cost 5x what they do when we can order them 6 months in advance. Hotel accomodations would be tough. If Disney tried to reserve rooms, they wouldn't want to reserve extra rooms, as they want to fill all rooms. So larger teams would get their travel team size cut. Not to mention the planing of each individual student's not knowing, and eventual let down of many.

I think that a change needs to be made in the way nationals are being run. I think that this year was horrible in that teams that wanted to come were not able to. I'm not sure of a solution. It seems we've reached the limit for 1 parking lot of Epcot. Is there a bigger parking lot? Are there 2 parking lots right next to each other?

Well, how about this....
 

...I know this sounds kinda cutthroat, but how about just first-come, first-serve? (pardon any puns I may have made). First 300 teams to sign up come, whether its rookie team 856-something or a multiple regional winner?

Different locations for each division?? maybe not..
 

I agree that nationals may have to be limited in the very near future as to the number of teams allowed. But, as usual, I have an idea..
You know how the Olympics take place not just in one place (even sometimes for the same type of events) but in multiple locations? Maybe each division would compete during a different time. Like only one division at a time..then everyone would come together at Disney for the finals. Then again, that would make most people have to take multiple cross-country trips.
Oh well..I tired. As usual, I didn't fully think about the idea before writing it. Hopefully I jump-started a good idea in someone else. :)

~Angela who really needs to learn to think through things

have multiple National competitions.
 

I believe having multiple nationals can be one possible solution.

You all remember how last year there are 4 divisions, and each team only compete with other teams in their own division. Well, I am suggesting that FIRST have 4 different competitions at the same time after all the regionals ended.

The teams will be randomly split into the 4 divisions just like last time, and the location of the 4 divisions will be 4 separate places across the country. This way, teams will have to travel across the country for one of the randomly assigned divisional competitions, and teams base in Florida will actually have to get out of Florida some time to compete somewhere else. :D Well, one of the division can still be at Florida.

And, after the 4 divisional champions are decided, they will get together to compete at Epcot's Einstein stage for the National champion. And all the teams will go to the finals and award ceremony for about 2 or 3 days, and won't have to pay as much for expensive Disney hotels and food.

However, I am not exactly sure how this will work out, as some teams might not want to go to Florida just for the finals and award ceremony. And, it will also mean teams will have to travel one more time instead of just going to a regional and national.

Well, I have a slightly different opinion as to what FIRST will do for nationals in the future. We had four divisions this year. There are four Parks at Walt Disney World. That means that each division could compete at a different park. Then just move everybody over to Epcot for the finals. That way everyone's at the same place but there's more room to spread out.

Matt

I agree that FIRST will have to do something in the near future to accomodate the growing number of teams nationwide & at nationals.

In theory, I love the idea of growing the number of teams that compete at Nats by making Einstein larger, but this has its own problems. Before returning to Nats for the first time in 5 years, adults on the team told me that the national competition wasn't as fun as the regionals. I was skeptical because it was a blast in '96, but unfortunately they were right. The regionals this year and '96 Nats were more fun because they were more intimate. At these competitions, all the teams actually stuck around and watched the elims. When the DJ played good songs people got out of their seats and danced; I even danced on the park benches in '96. Contrast that with Nats now where the only teams watching the elims are those in them, probably because it's nearly impossible to see anything from the stands. I spent most of the competition in the Archimedes stands and I rarely saw people get up to dance.

I'm not saying that Nats is too big, just that something has to be done to make Nats feel like a smaller competition. I think divisions was an attempt at doing this, but something has to be done to the venue itself in order to completely fix the problems. It's fine to have 500+ teams there, just as long as FIRST does something to address this issue.

Mike, who didn't like the 5 minute walk from the pits & Archimedes to the washroom :)

Limiting the Nationals
 

I have long been an advocate of limiting the size of the Nationals.

The 4 divisions this year went a long way toward putting the fun back in the Nationals (imho), but they are only a stopgap measure when you consider the real implicationions of 40% compound growth.

I believe that limiting the teams that qualify for the Nationals is in the long-term best interest of FIRST.

There are a number of reasons for this but I believe the best two reasons are that #1 it will increase the prestige of the event if the club is somewhat of an invitation only affair and #2 it will make the Nationals a more TV friendly event. I know I sound like a broken record to most folks who are regulars on these forums, but I believe that TV coverage of FIRST is (or should be) a major major part of FIRST's plan to succeed.

I don't know if or when FIRST will limit the size of the Nationals, but the sooner they can find a way to address the roadblocks to implementation, the better.

Joe J.

Well, if FIRST wants to postpone limiting the number of teams at nationals, having multiple sites would work but would probabaly be too expensive.

It has always seemed a kind of waste to spend a month setting up the area and then using it for only three days; why not use it twice. Reusing the same site would double the number of teams; half of the teams one week and the other half the next week. This would work for another two or three seasons.


Frank (who loves to see FIRST grow)

thats probably mostly because the rambots were in curie

Re: Limiting the Nationals
 

One of the reasons I was against having limited teams going to National is that one of the best experiences going to National is meeting everyone around the country. I got to see robots from different regionals I heard from, and most of the people I met in the forum.

However, National seems to have grown so big that it is really hard visiting every pit and looking at all the robots. And as other people said, there are other problems with the Nats getting too large.

An idea I came up with is that why don't we make the size of the "regionals" larger, every teams going to a "super-size" regional will feel like they are playing in the divisional competition. Then we limit the number of going to Nationals with some method...

This way, people will still be able to meet a lot of teams from all over the place, and the size of National can become smaller without taking away a big part of experience for teams not going to Nats... Teams who can¡¦t afford to go to regionals AND Nationals will be able to attend a super-size regional without feeling too left out from not going to the actual national¡K

Large regionals are lousy...
 

Before I actually went to the first large regional, I thought that a large regional would be great.

After having been to a number of them, I have come to the conclusion that smaller is better (up to a point -- 30 is perhaps too small).

Unless FIRST would add 2 stages to these "super regionals" I would be against the idea.

Joe J.

I have only been to the last two nationals, so I do not know what the smaller nationals were like, but I think that it is far better for the entire FIRST community that FIRST allow as many teams as possible. In my opinion, the size of nationals is one of the things that makes it so great -- there are so many teams to meet from so many places, so many robots to see and so many different ways of accomplishing a goal. However, let's put my personal opinion aside and assume that large nationals somehow decreases the quality of the event. In this case, each person at nationals may not have quite as positive as an experience. However, even with this small change, there would be twice as many people at a larger nationals. Therefore, a large event generates more net energy and enthusiasm than a smaller nationals would.

That's just my opinion, and FIRST and/or Disney may not be able to handle any more teams. On a slightly different topic, I think FIRST should use the same system next year as this year for deciding who gets a spot at nats: first-come-first-serve. As others have mentioned, you simply need to know well in advance in order to plan a trip to Orlando for an entire team.

Patrick

No way.
 

I don't believe in limitation. The nationals was created so all FIRST team's who could afford to attend, could come together and enjoy the game, together.

If the FIRST Nationals become too large for that parking lot, then the venue could always be re-located.

Re: No way.
 

...well put. my thoughts exactly

I don't think it's the parking lot size we're maxing out. Now, this is just my opinion, but I don't think they can get larger portable stands. And simply putting more seats on the floor won't work either because there's a limit to how far out seats on the floor can go. I think that's the real problem. And we need all those seats for opening/closing ceremonies. I also think the pit size is getting a tad ridiculous but that could easily be solved by multiple pit tents (where does Disney rent this stuff from anyway or do they own it?).

Matt

Why, are you throwing a big party? :)

I cringe at the thought of merely expanding the seating at Einstein without some drastic changes to its layout. Trying to watch matches from the stands was impossible because the robots looked like matchbox cars. The floor seating wasn't much better. About the only good place to watch matches in Einstein was the pit in front. Even there, it was difficult to see unless you were in the front.

If FIRST wants people to watch the elims & finals, they need to fix the seating & viewing problems on Einstein. They may have to switch to seating that resembles a stadium instead of a theater. From the stands on Einstein, it was difficult to discern the robots, but from the upper sections in a good stadium, it's possible to see a hockey puck on the ice.

btw, I heard that Disney is basically maxed out at ~300 teams.

Mike

I feel that teams should only go to the Nats if they participated in a regional. We were hurt in Fla. by teams that had no idea what their robot could do and wanted to try out ideas. I don't feel that was fair.

Not Fair?
 

I'm not trying to offend you but...

There are some teams out there that can't afford to go to a regional if they go to the nationals. Although we're not one of those teams, teams with low resources should be able to chose to go to the Nationals or a Regional. Other teams may choose to go to just a Regional and not the Nationals. It should be their choice.

Teams with little experience may choose to do stuff that vetrans don't agree with. It's all part of learning.

A Bit of Analysis
 

OK, After reading all the posts thus far I have a bit to say. I want to reply to what a few people have posted. To Bill, I agree with you that that time is needed to arange a trip. You can't just throw something together at the last minute, especially when you have a large team (which seems to be very common among teams that have been around awhile). To Joe, getting T.V. coverage is important but think about this. If FIRST starts to cater to T.V. the crews will take up hotel space and other space that could be used by another team. Also, having an invitational nats the way you described sounds like a country club where only the important need apply. I don't mean to sound snotty, but that's just the way it sounded to me (possibly because of where I live and the people who live here) Frank, usin the same site for multiple events could tie it up for even longer. If it takes a few weeks, like yoy said, to set up the event for three days of use what about the time in between events? Could be a week or more. My idea is one that I read on the old forum. Someone suggested moving the competition to Texas. Everything there is bigger and they are building bigger arenas as I type. Or if FIRST wants to keep Disney involved what about California? I've never been there so I don't know if space-wise this is a feasable idea. In case you haven't figured it out I'm really against making nats smaller. One thing that I'll miss if nats is smaller is the web hug. Smaller nats would kinda leave this place a little bit different for people who want to meet the people they've been sharing ideas with on-line. Another thing the people who want to down size nats are forgetting is the whole idea of FIRST. It is supposd to be a way to get multitudes of people together to share ideas. It also helps to have more people to analyze a potential problem (my team got some help from another mentor which saved us much hassle). In writing this long response I hope I have not irked anyone. I just wanted to put my 2 cents in about nats. It's always been my job to be analytical, sometimes I go to far and I seem to be pesemistic. I hope that I have not done that now. C~ya, Carolyn, who has typed this in her first block with a dislocated finger that has not been reset yet.

The more and more I think about the idea of what to do with Nationals the more and more I realize that we're getting too big for a nationals as it's been run in the past. Basically, I don't think it matters the location, we've just gotten too big. It's no longer space but the fact that it'd be an event that was too large for FIRST or anyone else to reasonably handle. The pit was already enormous and the number of fields is quite a lot also. As for limiting nationals to a certain number of teams, it's already happened and will most likely happen in the future. Will that be fair to all teams? No but I don't think there's really a better option. We could move nationals but that doesn't solve the size problem. So basically I don't think the problem is with space but instead with the number of people. It's a different story for things like sporting events because there are only about 40 or so participants there. At a FIRST competition there are on the order of 10000 participants and that's where the differences comes into play. So basically I don't think we have a choice, as much as I hate it, to limit the size of nationals.

Matt who already felt the web hug was too big this year -- too many people he didn't know ;)

[color=purple]Wll, as far as there being too many people to keep letting everyone go to nats. What about the number of people who attend sporting events? Most indoor arenas can hold tens of thousands of people, and the outdoor arenas can hold even more. I'm sure if the team owners are approached they will be happy to get a huge tax write-off in return for allowing FIRST to use their facillities. This may also bring the publicity from T.V. and newspapers that so many people are looking for. If one of the owners is willing to do something like this, he wants people to know about it. It could make front page news somewhere. I think I heard that the arena the Colorado Avalanche play in holds upwards of 60,000 people. That is a fairly large number. Maybe instead of making nats open to fewer teams FIRST should limit the number of people who go with a team. That would make going even more competitive. It would also eliminate groups like "The Florida Club" (which I'm sure more than one team has been plagued with. That's just 2 more cents from me.

C~ya,
Carolyn Who is rackin' up the 2 cents and might go broke one of these days.

fyi: most hockey / basketball arenas hold ~20,000 give or take a few thousand. Big football stadiums hold 60,000 - 80,000.

But I agree that FIRST will have to switch to a stadium if they keep growing the size of Nats. A basketball stadium sounds like a good solution, but the one thing it's missing is outdoors & Disney. One of the great aspects of Nats is sitting outside (even though I didn't do it enough) and watching matches, sitting outside eating lunch or talking with friends. Plus if FIRST moves to a stadium in a city, what will everyone do each day after competitions? The beauty of Disney is that's already taken care of.

I've heard a few people talk about Nats moving to Texas, and each time I hear that I think of the same question, "What's in Texas?". It certainly doesn't sound as fun as Disney.

Mike

As I said above, it's not an issue of location. It's more an issue of people control. It's rather difficult to control upwards of 15,000 people. And not just for a short period of time, but for three whole days. And there needs to be control for 5 different arenas and an enormous pit area. And to top it off, the vast majority of the people attending are high school students which makes it even more difficult. Now try expanding the numbers above because that's what'd happen if FIRST let more teams to nationals. There really isn't anything else that compares for its size, audience, and length. Because of the people control issues I doubt nationals will ever get bigger.

Matt

I know that there is a Six Flags in Texas. There are also sports for every season for those who are fans. I'm sure with the weather there is a water park somewhere. As far as crowd control. Lets think about it. For the most part the teams have responsible people, or just people who are aware of how they should act in certain situations. For people who do not fit this, maybe this would be a way for teams to cut down on the number of people at nats. As far as there being no out doors if nats is in a stadium, what's the difference between being in a huge air-conditioned tent and a building. I realize the sun-light issue, but really. For those who want to go outside and do something like, ultimate frisbee, I'm sure FIRST could um say bust out the fake grass from Disney and set up some kind of parking lot deal like at Disney. The only reason that I suggested Texas is because everything in Texas is bigger. According to their motto.
C~ya,
Carolyn who loves to watch SNL to see Will Ferrel say "Don't mess with Texas!":p

Idea!!!!
 

What about the Miami Dolphins' football staduim? Outdoors, space, still Florida,... Miami is a fairly large city with plenty to do. There's a beach. Just another 2 cents.
C~ya,
Carolyn who will one day learn to put everything into one post. :cool:

Houston
 

Earlier in the season I had heard rumors that FIRST was thinking about moving the Nationals to the Astrodome in Houston in 2003. They could easily handle all the people.

I don't think the issue is whether there is a place that can handle 15,000+ people. Heck, the LA regional was held at the Sports Arena, which seats that many.

Even if the nationals were held in a football stadium, what do you do about pits, multiple fields, etc.

Pits.. no prob
 

Well, it all depends on the size of the fields. Most stadiums have the levels and walk ways going around the field. the pits could be arranged going around the field. That would make it easier to see multiple competitions and from the pit!!!!!
C~ya,
Carolyn who really would like FIRST to be reading these suggestions and hopes they help.;)

The problem with using the pits as walkways is that, well, what do you use as walkways then? Plus having very spread out pits would generally be a bad idea because it makes getting robots to and from the staging area that much more difficult. It also makes FIRST's job harder to manage the pit. I still say we'll never leave Disney and that they'll continue limiting attendance at nationals.

Matt

The walkways are generally pretty wide so if the pits took up half of the walkway width there would still be room for pedestrians and carts. If there are more teams at nats then you might not need to get to the pits as quickly, if they keep up with the match scheduling like they had this year. If FIRST wanted to stay with Disney as a sponsor but move to a stadium, a coast change might take place for nats. The Angels are owned by Disney (I think) It could work. The people running FIRST are pretty smart, I'm sure they'll figure out a way from having to limit nats.
C~ya,
Carolyn

Wide World of Sports Complex
 

I know the Wide World of Sports Complex in Disney has a baseball stadium. Do they have a basket ball arena or anyting like it?

Re: Wide World of Sports Complex
 

The Wide World of Sports does have a baseball stadium but it is used for spring training by a professional team (no I don't remember which one). Then again the main problem with most sports stadiums is a lack of a roof. Rain + robot = very bad thing. So it'd need to be a domed stadium.

Matt

Lol, one more post Matt....
 

...just one more post ;)

rain + robot =not very bad thing...if we have a water game

I think you guys missed something here. Based on the size tents we had this past year I'm sure to figure out a way to cover a field. Afterall, there were some teams who's pits got rained on when the tent cieling caved-in. One of the teams was in the Galileo pit area and across the aisle from team 122. They had to move everything out. Rain is a minor set back. After all, Mike could be right, uh oh that's scary that those words came out in that order and context. If we have a water game the problem could bedome finding a big enough pool or beach area.
C~ya,
Carolyn

yes! im right...im gonna have to write it down on the calender...and im gonna have to print it out and hang it on the refridgerator...havent had anything up there since - i guess i never have even though my brothers and sisters managed some good grades. finally i get something though...yay...

Let me rephrase that then:
sun + pasty white engineers = bad thing ;)

Matt

touche

how could this irishman forget that?

where shoulod I start?
 

Oh, Wow. I havent posted in a while. Well, I have a lot to say about this one.

1. I really like having nats at disney, just because its got a great atmosphere, and the weather is usually great (minus the rain). I really like the idea of having each division at each disney park. That would be really cool. I definatly think that we could easily figure out a way to keep nationals at Disney without having to keep teams from participating.

2. I dont really think that FIRST can easily limit who comes to nats (i've said this before). Many rookie teams can only go to nationals, because of funding or other reasons. If we then tell them, sorry, you cant go because you didnt go to a regional, then it seems like participating in FIRST isnt worth their time.
Also, Nationals is such a great experiance. I feel bad for teams that can only go to a regional, they dont know what they are missing. It would be wrong to not allow everyone to enjoy nationals.

3. Who said that they didnt see dancing???!!!????
Our team is slightly insane about dancing to the music at competitions. (this is what happens when you team has 16 girls and 11 boys...the girls end up dancing all the time. :D lol)....(think the big crowd before opening ceremonies on sat) Also, just wait until next year, when it will the danceing wil be better than ever!!!

ok...i needed to get that all out.
~Mimi who had lots of built up posting energy in her

Re: where shoulod I start?
 

Let me respond point by point:

1) I think all of us enjoy Disney as a location for nationals. However, the fact that it is Disney makes it harder keep people focused on FIRST. I know I have trouble with that myself even though I love FIRST and I've already been to Disney 3 times. That is one of the main reasons that moving nationals to another location would be beneficial regardless of the additonal capacity of another location.

2) FIRST already has limited the number of teams going to nationals. If you mean limit nationals attendance to teams that also went to a regional, I personally feel that that would be a good idea. Why? Because the experience of a regional is much better and much more rewarding than the experience of nationals. At regionals there's more a feeling of competition; people are sitting in the stands watching most matches; people are excited; it's louder, there's more enthusiasm; there's a better chance of winning something. I've done just the regional thing for a year, and I would recommend that over just going to nationals. Regionals are just more fun. The main thing I get out of nationals (besides seeing people) is just the size and expansiveness of FIRST. Yes, it's a good feeling and it's neat to see, but I don't think it's necessary.

3) I didn't say anything about not seeing dancing, but I will say I see a lot less dancing and yelling at Nationals as opposed to regionals. I personally believe that there was more yelling at the finals in NJ than there was in the finals at Nationals (this could be because I was down by the field at NJ yelling while I was sitting in seats at Nationals but that was the impression I got). There's just more enthusiasm at regionals. I don't remember seeing random conga-lines sprouting up at Nationals but do at NJ (yeah, I know, no conga music but it still counts).

Personally I hope to see FIRST stay at Disney and to allow unlimited teams to show up. Unfortunately, I don't think that'll happen. We'll wait and see what FIRST decides.

Matt

Re: where shoulod I start?
 

I'll build on what Matt said.

1. Well, I'll skip this one because I've already commented on it.

2. I'll voice my opinion here again. With the current of Nationals, it is too large. If FIRST can do something to make it feel more like a regional and get people excited while keeping or increasing the number of teams, I'd love it. But if they can't bring the fun back, they have to reduce the number of teams. FIRST has a big problem here: Nationals isn't as fun or exciting as regionals.

Since this is the Rumor Mill, I'll pass one along. I heard that FIRST is considering limiting Nats to teams that attend a regional, unless it's a rookie team.

3. I was the one who said there wasn't a lot of dancing or excitement at Nats, and I'm standing by that statement. Sure there were isolated instances of dancing, but it doesn't come close to what you find at a regional. And I can't help but compare Nats '01 to Nats '96, where during most periods between matches people would stand up (sometimes on the park benches) and dance, and during some songs almost everyone was up dancing. I just didn't see that type of excitement this year.

And as Matt said, there wasn't as much yelling either. Actually, there weren't many people even watching the matches. With ~80 teams per division, I'd expect the division stands to be overflowing (the only time this happened was the division finals). At times there were plenty of open seats. And during the finals on Einstein, the stands were empty. Contrast that with the finals in Chicago where everyone was watching and cheering. The place erupted when our alliance got the 710.

FIRST needs find a way to make Nationals as exciting as regionals and as exciting as it used to be.

Mike

Good point....
 

Hello,

I will just chime in here and say that time and time and time and time and time and time again I have heard people voice the same concerns as Mike. Nationals isn't fun anymore because it's too big. I went to nationals during the 3 year period of 97, 98 and 99 and I must say I have some very good fond memories. I took 2000 off from Nationals and went to them again in 2001. What a rude awakening that was....the size of things mushroomed out of control. And the whole time I was there I couldn't shake the feeling that I had much better memories from the previous trips. One thing that I think has severely limited the dancing/party atmosphere....indoor stages. I hate them...they are small, u are packed into the tents like sardeens. I say leave the stages outside. Drink plenty of water...u'll learn your lesson sooner or later like I did in 1998 when I almost dehydrated. But I'd gladly take a little sun to return that party atomsphere to nationals. I don't think finals @ Nats have ever been well attended in my exprience...to many people much more interested in the magic that Disney has to offer by that point than a robot compeition. If anything divisions hurt nationals the most. It was impossible to find teams...and if you had teams u wanted to see in multiple divisions...just forget it...here was no hope.

In regards to the rumor...it seems like a good money maker for FIRST. Because if you have to go to a regional to go to nationals well that $4000 + $5000 right there so basically all teams going to Nats will be shelling out a min of $9000...but give the rookies a one time break.

Just my thoughts,

-Justin

A few other things...
 

Okay,

First, something about sports stadiums. Most of these places have teams that inhabit them. I am hoping to see a Regional at the new Manchester Civic Center here in Manchester New Hampshire. However I was informed of a few obstacles to holding a FIRST comp @ a sports arena. Basically you have teams who inhabit them...so you have to work around a fairly regular schedule for a professional sports team. My response was "well they can break down a basketball court and have ice in the hockey wrink in just a few hours." Anyone who has assembled a FIRST field knows that this is not concieveable. Scheduling wise it isn't like FIRST is in and out in a day or even nite...they are there, setup, entrenched for 4 probably more days. There is no ticket revenue so u have to rent the place out...which cost enourmous amounts of money especially if the workforce is unionized because they have a minium amount of wages, etc. that need to be covered.

Secondly on a completely unrelated note...

My question is this to everyone who said Nationals shouldn't be limited....aren't the really already???

-Justin (again)

Nationals
 

I have always personally liked the closeness of regionals better. I love the fact that people stay and watch almost all the matches at the regionals, it makes competition so much more exciting. the thing I enjoy about nationals though, is the distance people travel to all gather in one spot to share their ideas, robots, and spirit with one another. Their is no other competition quite like it. FIRST touches many peoples lives and brings people from all walks of life together. It is great to see teams with diversity, and jocks, and "geeks", and people from every group come togther for one cause. The excitement and enourmous size of the nationals is what people remeber, if the event became smaller and more select it would discourage teams if they could never quite make it to that level. Could you imagine FIRST without the nationals open to everyone? What would you feel is your team wasn't good enough at regionals to make it to the national competition. If FIRST wants to encourage team work it will be a very hard thing to make the nationals open to only high seeds in the regionals. Also, if it was onyl open to regional winners, what would happen when a team who could only afford to make it to one regional wins? How will they make it to nationals? Or if your team can't afford to attend a regional and could only make nationals? Would that team automatically get into the national? Just some thoughts on selective nationals....

Idea...
 

Do it like the Olympics. At the end of the season, have all the teams that attended Nationals vote on a stadium for the next nationals. Debates can be held. Each team gets one vote (probably an online vote around May). Winning stadium gets the first opportunity to hold the nationals. If they can't, it goes back to a vote. This way, if they choose to hold the event, they get about 10 months to prepare for it.

Oh, and 2 words: Pontiac Silverdome. You have the Central Michagan cluster there, and it can hold 93,000 people.

Hey Justin,
About your comment of renting out an arena and the expense. What about when FIRST rents out Epcot for the evening for all of us? That can't be too cheap can it? And nats already being limited. Yes they are and I don't agree with that. There has got to be some way to eliminate limitations.
C~ya,
Carolyn who doesn't like conformity or limitations, and pushes both to the point that no one thought was possible just to prove them wrong. :p

Please... Please just understand FIRST's point of view...
 

As much as I hate limiting National... I have to say that FIRST HAVE to do that eventually. I would even say that FIRST should do it next year because the size is so big already...

The two reasons why I say this:

The Price of getting a bigger place anywhere have grown more and more that it just get ridiculously expensive to have a bigger event.

There are so many teams in one place that FIRST will never have the personal or the resource to have a completely organized competition.


There is just no good way of facing this problem... Yes, even though National was made so that ALL teams could go, but next year we are probably facing 600 teams all over the national. So, one way of letting every team to go to National is to raise the entry fee to $10,000, or some how FIRST just have to start making money through some other way... (You see what I am getting at?)

Again, I have to stress that this is a problem with NO perfection solution. We might not like it, but that's the way it is.

SO, no matter what people want, limitation is a MUST even thought it's not a good solution. Remember, FIRST is just people like us... They are facing the same problem as we do, and they don¡¦t intentionally limit the size of National just to make people angry. It's a really tough job they are doing, and I just hope you all have the heart to respect FIRST's decision...

Couple of things I've heard that FIRST might be doing to limit teams at National:

Odd numbered teams will allowed to go to National in one year, and then Even numbered teams will be allowed to go to National the year after, and they rotate between the two group.

Also, teams who are doing really well at Regionals deserve to go to National because they should be given the chance to prove how good they are in the National level.

Finally, teams with really good record from pass years deserve to go to National... There are teams who did a really good job in the pass years who might have some trouble this coming year so they won't be able to have good result (for whatever reasons) at regional... Teams like team 22 Chatsworth HS who won the Chairman Award this year totally deserve to go to National next year for what they did, even though their robot didn't win a regional competition...

All these are to make sure the students on a team will get a chance to go to National IF they want to... while maintaining the quality of National...

For the most part Disney foots a good part of the bill for Nationals. There is some money changing hands between FIRST and Disney but for the most part, Disney pays. FIRST would not have nationals if Disney hadn't stepped in back in '95 (right year?) to sponsor it. And realize that if we moved to an arena we'd probably lose the Disney sponsorship.

Matt

what about the possibility of using all the Disney sites (calif and Fl) to hold coastal championships

i know its tons of extra $$ to travel but more teams would be able to participate


dahl
team497

Well, Disney would have to agree to it first. The other part is that there isn't too much space in Disneyworld (CA). Disney has a lot more property in FL than they do in CA (by an order of magnitude).

Matt

Well, there is so much that could be said. I guess I'd like to point out to Ken that if more teams sign up to go to nationals there will automatically be more money to pay for the larger arena. If Disney does pay for most of nationals, what then is the registration money used for? To the best of my knowledge the judges and other officiaals are volunteers and some of the tents and the Einstein field must be from previous use. I realize that the fees don't pay for everything but they have to pay for a certain amount or it wouldn't be worth Disney's time to get involved. I am not totally against limiting all of nationals, but I would like to have as many people there as possible. Maybe the way to solve everything is for Dean to buy another small island and use it for the national competition.
C~ya,
Carolyn

Disney pays for part of nationals. FIRST pays for part of nationals. Most of the income FIRST brings in is spent on the FRC. FIRST's operating budget from fiscal year 2000 was included in the program this year. Off the top of my head, I believe that year registration fees totaled about a $1,000,000. While that seems like a lot, it's important to remember that FIRST employs about 20 people (including contractors). Their salaries take a good deal of the money that FIRST brings in. And of course there are costs associated with moving all the equipment around, moving the FIRST empoyees and volunteers to the various regionals and nationals among other expenses. Reading the budget was interesting for me at least so I invite you to take a look at it.

Matt

The budget was on the one of the first few pages of the program from nationals.

...Not that I can find my program in my room ;)

Actually, I like the idea of Dean buying another country. I mean island. Island.

In all seriousness, buying another island probably would eliminate the size matter, but we'd have to figure out a way to get there. If it is close to the mainland, there could be ferries going back & forth, or even a bridge. But it can't be in the middle of nowhere unless the island is big enough for hotels to fit all the teams (and a large swimming pool, of course ;) ), and an airport. It is a good idea though, and it would put another island in the fledgling Kamen Empire (inside joke).

Re: Well, how about this....
 

My thoughts exactly :D

However, I'd much rather see them allow every team who wants to come to make it to nationals... even if this means using more disney property or moving to a different location. I thought I heard someone (maybe Dean) say at Nationals that Disney says that as long as FIRST keeps growing, disney will find a way to accomodate that number of teams.

Patrick

Just a theory
 

Here's my two cents, so get ready for it because here it comes!

When you get down to it, not every team is going to be able to make it to nationals. For the life of me I can't remember just what the number was, but Dean at Nationals this previous year was talking about how quickly FIRST was going, there simply isn't anywhere that can take in that many people. Nevermind the venue, think hotels, transportation, etc. etc. etc. So, conlusion number 1 is that Nationals must eventually be limited.

Given that Nationals must be limited (I'm not saying that that's good, I'm just facing some facts), the question becomes how to limit it. This is the difficult part. Many ideas have been tossed around, and I have yet to see a bad one in the bunch. Saying that winners deserve to see how they do nationally makes sense, but so does first come, first serve. My idea is this - yes, make Nationals available to only those who qualify, but make it a much smaller (yes, I did say smaller) deal. Kind of along the same ideas as super regionals, enforce going to regionals instead of nationals. If nationals isn't nearly as big a deal as going to the regionals, then people won't be as upset when they can't go (for whatever reason that may be).

Is this the right answer? I honestly don't know. Is it just another idea to shout out and maybe get the juices flowing so someone else can come up with a better idea? Yes. Like Dean said, in the however many years he says its going to take to have FIRST offered in every high school, having everyone at Nationals just can't happen. It'd probably be for the best if we started planning for that now.

~Tom~

P.S. Please don't think I'm a pessimist! I'm really a nice guy, honest! :)

limiting nat's
 

I prsonally would hate to see the nat's limited. But, i hope this may clear up a couple of questions. On a recent trip to Paris (yes the one in France) to promote FIRST at the Paris Air Show, i got the chance to talk to David Brown 1 on 1. And we talked about the nat's. He said that Disney is begging for mercy. He told me that we have outgrown Epcot. Remember, the 12,000 or more crazy FIRSTers are in attition ot their normal crowds and we are simply putting a strain on their limited resources. He said that they are exploring a number of options for the future including Disneyland in CA, and using the Wide World of Sports area. Additionally, he told me that if the current rate of growth occurs they may have to cap the nationals next year, Thus, for admittance, they have to explore new options. One of them may be on a point system based on past performance and awards, kinda like the method that Ken mentioned in an earlier post. Anyway, this was information was first hand out of David Brown, and i hope it makes some amount of sense.

Now my personal opinion: Disneyland is a really good idea. They have the Anaheim Convention Center directally across the street, which holds thousands of people. Also, there are dozens of new hotels that have gone up since the opening of the California Adventure. While it is not nearly as big as Disney World, it could accomodate a multitude of teams, and there is adequate lodging within walking distance. Remember, only 1/2 the teams would go to a split national championship Oh, and i live 30 minutes away, so my team would not have to spend a lot of money. :) Anyway, that's just my humble opinion.

Sean (who has posted on CD for the first time)

while i can accept first-come first-serve as a means of limitting nats, i have to strongly oppose any other means of limitation, like having to qualify to go. many of my reasons for this have already been posted, so i wont repeat them. one that i dont think anyone has mentioned, however, is this:

to qualify for nats by doing well in regionals gives teams with a huge budget even more unfair advantage. how many teams went to 2 or more regionals? the teams that go to multiple regionals are almost exclusively teams that have been around for a long time, have enormous budgets, and strong support in both the student body and the faculty/administration.

these teams are given extra chances to go to nats.

furthurmore, to get these enormous budgets a team needs strong faculty/administration support, which is most readily gotten through support from the student body. one of the main reasons that people originally get involved with first is the idea that 'hey this means i get to go to disney' im not saying that this is a good reason to do first, or that its the reason people stick with first. it is, however, something that gets people to join a robotics team in the first place.
take away nats, and you take away the guarenteed trip to disney. people then say 'hey i could go to disney, if we win at a regionals...thats interesting' then forget it figuring that its not like theyll win the regionals.
if we lose student support, then first either cant grow, or its growth will stagnate.

plus, these same multi-reginal teams throw a wrench into the equation: what if they win more then one regional?

Tom...a nice guy?
 

O.k. here goes. As far as Dean buying an island, there are islands off the new england coast that are bought often (Dean already has one) there are also hawaiian islands and islands near canada and in the Florida keys. If he were to buy another island it would obviously have to be sizeable. He would have to have some sort os hotel arrangement, maybe buildings minus the room service, yes that means everyone would have to pick up after themselves. He could build the necessary buildings for housing competition and other needs. As far as transportation to the island, he currently has a helicopter to his island, this would not work for FIRST, but there are many things which would need to be looked at before deciding on one. For instance: the size of the island may be able to accomodate a runway if the island is far off shore, a ferry could transport to a nearby island, etc. you all see where I'm going with this. The registration fee would most likely go up but would it be worth it? The other thing which should be considered is how many people a team should be allowed to take to compettion with them. Smaller teams would allow for more teams. I don't know if any of you took the servey from disney but one of the questions sticks out in my mind, how likely would you be to attend nationals were it on 2 separate properties? That would be a tough one. How would they split between the properties?
C~ya,
Carolyn

Plus, if he did buy another island, how long would it take to get everything built?

On the plus side, the stages can remain up year round.

Well, to build the hotels would take maybe 8 or 9 months, I'm basing this on the length of time it takes in Williamsburg, the same probly goes with everything else. It would take awhile to get paper work finalized and to get occupancy certificates for all of the buildings. Field building would not take any longer than usual. All in all one season would have to pass by in order to have the island ready. That's not too bad really. Disney could be let in to the island deal as a sponsorer and have a FIRST interactive park. That would take care of much of the want for publicity as everyone seems to be bent up on. The Disney part won't be finished as soon as the rest, but that's o.k. It would need to be a large island, but it could work if FIRST wanted.
C~ya,
Carolyn who likes to work on problems of this nature! ;)

...
 

I don't mean anything by this, but isn't the idea of buying an island a little outrageous?...

Re: ...
 

a little off the deep end at least
but its an amusing conversation, and so what if its not realistic?

what happens when we outgrow that island?

Its simple. We buy a small country.

~Tom~, who thinks that this idea has probably gone far enough.

Why?
 

Dean has already bought one island. Besides it's something to think about in the off-season
C~ya,
Carolyn

But Dean already has a small country. He seceded(sp?) from the nation, remember?

-Ed "Really likes the idea of buying another country" McDonnell

LoL, interesting/weird question time - If you could chose any country on Earth for Dean to buy, which would it be? Personally I'd choose Jamacia, just because I like warm weather and beaches.

~Tom~

...
 

Can't buy my country, foo [j/k]....I would probably say New Zealand, or some country in the sticks of the world...

simple answer!
 

Australia!:D I love the country. It's an island too. There is everything there, desert, beach, and ski resorts. Can't go wrong and can't outgrow it either.:p
C~ya,
Carolyn

I would take New Zealand and have my bot sponsered by the All-Blacks-
just think of showing th ebot off as the mascot of the team in front of a reana audience of 120-150 thousand fans

yahooo!

(they are the national team in Rugby)


Dahl
team497
Rugby Player (prop)
Virginia Rugby

Airfare for Australia/New Zealand is NUTS, though! And its not like you can get around it by Greyhounding it or Amtraking it down there.....you have to fly. Plus, customs would be a nightmare...

But I do like the idea ;)

The thing that would really be funny is seeing the looks on the faces of the airport staff when they find out thousands of kids from America are going to be headed through the terminals and invading the airports. The customs officers seeing the tools and other gear in the luggage through the X-ray machines. Quite possibly FIRST could strike up a deal with Quantas (national Ossie air carrier) for the FIRST teams. Robot shiping would be the outrageous fair. On another side of the coin, here's a way to limit that many people have been looking for.
C~ya,
Carolyn

Th High Priest would have to say Cuba. Good size, and we could get rid of communists while we're at it.

-Ed "Now REALLY likes the idea of buying a country" McDonnell

how about great diamond in Casco Bay-

or a huge floating island that can motor up and down the coasts

sort of like a travleing playing field


dahl
team497

Big giant cruise ship. Hmm...

Communism
 

Ya, know Ed in theory communism isn't bad. It's actually brilliant and could make the world perfect and fair. No more screaming "That's not fair." But, that's only in theory.
C~ya,
Carolyn

Re: Communism
 

Mainly because then no one gets anything. ;) Sorry, I just remember the long lines for bread in the Soviet Union. Communism works in theory, and that's about it. Communism is about removing the elites who own the means of production but those elites are simply replaced by more elites who run the government. And before you point out that Marx believed at some point we'd all live together without a government in a communist paradise, I think that whole idea was short cited.

Matt who needs to not talk about politics....

If you ask The High Priest, politics altogether are screwed up. Remember Florida?

"Everything I really needed to know...
 

...I learned in Kindergarden." These are words to live by. I think the vote counters must have been in preschool, you know they haven't started the learning process yet. Now that I live in Florida I can help the vote counters.
C~ya,
Carolyn who distinctly remembers counting so much in kindergarden that her teacher taped her mouth shut.

communism is an evil elitist dictatorial regime...
socialism is the perfect form of government, at least in theory, possibly in reality. the main problem is that socialism hasnt actually been tried.
mike who could go off on a long speal about the merits of socialism, the evils of communism, the differences between the two, etc. but will stop here

In The High Priest's opinion, the worst form of government is the dictatorship, with monarchy falling right behind it.

Reasons: Hitler, Saddam, etc...

There's not much difference between dictatorship and monarchy. I just had a crazy idea the other night. What if we use the Battle bot arena when they are not competing? There's plenty of space for competing and pits, they have more bots this season than we did. It could work. As much as I dislike the idea behind demolishing machines such as these for sport, I'd love to use their competition site.
C~ya,
Carolyn

Ah, but customs wouldn't be bad at all. Its Dean's island, remember? ;)

~Tom~

We'd have to come back into the US you know. I really don't think Edison Tech would appreciate us taking their students to another country and not bringing them back....

Matt who thinks the 60 seconds rule is stupid.....

60 seconds rule? you talkin about the no posting every 60 seconds rule?

Post flooders, BEWARE!

It's not so much the students coming back but do you really think Dean would allow certain things out there? Think real hard but don't hurt yourself or sit down to hard.
C~ya,
Carolyn