Pre-Stop Build Scrimmages - What Have We Learned So Far?
 

For all of you who participated or spectated (in person or via webcast), what have you learned about ULTIMATE ASCENT and the robots playing it so far?

John

Re: Pre-Stop Build Scrimmages - What Have We Learned So Far?
 

We learned that our pick up system was very effective and will be very nice in autonomous.

Our shooter works very well shooting into the 3pt goal with chains from the feeder station and from the front and back sides of the pyramid.

Last our 10pt climber worked like a charm and was one of the fastest and easies hanging mechanisms at our event. 3 seconds and only 25psi.

We also learned that if a frisbee is upside down and gets stuck on your wheel,it can really mess with your driving until it gets dislodged.

Re: Pre-Stop Build Scrimmages - What Have We Learned So Far?
 

In the last 30 seconds, there will be frisbees flying EVERYWHERE.

Re: Pre-Stop Build Scrimmages - What Have We Learned So Far?
 

I can see a small subset of human players going over 50% with their Hail Maries.

Reliable full court 3 pt shots are definitely a thing, and it will be fun to watch teams realize this on Thursday/Friday.

Driving in the last 30 seconds with all the frisbees on the field will be entertaining.

Lots of frisbees will be going over the netting.

There are going to be lots of ineffective human loading robots.

Not many robots are picking up from the floor... I wonder if anyone built a pickup robot that can dispense frisbees at the height the loading stations are? That would be pretty neat.

10 pt hangs will be fairly common, 20 and 30 pretty darn rare.

The field will be pretty crowded if you can't drive under the pyramid, and pretty open if you can.

Re: Pre-Stop Build Scrimmages - What Have We Learned So Far?
 

EVERYWHERE. It's crazy.

Re: Pre-Stop Build Scrimmages - What Have We Learned So Far?
 

It was raining frisbees!

Re: Pre-Stop Build Scrimmages - What Have We Learned So Far?
 

You miss 100% of the shots you don't take :D

Re: Pre-Stop Build Scrimmages - What Have We Learned So Far?
 

As expected, 30 point climbs are rare.

Re: Pre-Stop Build Scrimmages - What Have We Learned So Far?
 

We had one here in the week zero i attended in Minnesota, it took a good minute and 20 seconds for them to reach from the bottom to the top.

Re: Pre-Stop Build Scrimmages - What Have We Learned So Far?
 

Correction: Fast 30 point climbs are rare.

Re: Pre-Stop Build Scrimmages - What Have We Learned So Far?
 

Very few robots picking up from the floor at Suffield Shakedown. My old team is working on a very reliable pickup system, and we anticipate it being a big advantage at GSR. I thought it was great seeing solid teams like 2168 and 177 avoiding the big row of frisbees at midfield like the plague.

Re: Pre-Stop Build Scrimmages - What Have We Learned So Far?
 

You best not be stealing my signature!

But in all seriousness, I am scared. A lot of discs from the human player hit near the pyramid. If a robot was attempting a 30 point climb, that could be something to watch for.

Re: Pre-Stop Build Scrimmages - What Have We Learned So Far?
 

3 bolts per wheel on a dead axel setup isn't a good idea.

Re: Pre-Stop Build Scrimmages - What Have We Learned So Far?
 

I'm calling that part "the Blizzard." Sort of New England thing this year. Wall to wall "snow" by the time the match is over.

Re: Pre-Stop Build Scrimmages - What Have We Learned So Far?
 

Interesting. Do you think this would fall under G16? How could you tell if it was intentional or not? I guess its under the discretion of the refs, but it seems like this could be a pretty big factor, especially for teams who assume nothing will contact them while climbing.

Re: Pre-Stop Build Scrimmages - What Have We Learned So Far?
 

You would be hitting your own robots, so i don't think G16 would apply.

Re: Pre-Stop Build Scrimmages - What Have We Learned So Far?
 

Not sure how I didn't think about that. :P

Re: Pre-Stop Build Scrimmages - What Have We Learned So Far?
 

we were so worried that there wouldn't be enough Frisbee on the ground to pick up. our robot was built practically around the pick-up because we worked so hard and were so dedicated to picking up. After seeing webcasts we know that a pick up will for SURE work out and be beneficial! it took awhile for teams to drive and load to and from the feeding zone. also alot of missed shots and alot of human players throws made it look like it was snowing.

Lastly i saw a few teams angling their shooters extremely high and shooting into the 5pt goal right next to the pyramid. none went in.

Re: Pre-Stop Build Scrimmages - What Have We Learned So Far?
 

Not true.

Re: Pre-Stop Build Scrimmages - What Have We Learned So Far?
 

A lot of things I saw today; Only 1 robot had a floor pickup mechanism and very rarely used it. The last 30 seconds there were quite a few Frisbees on the field & a frenzy of Frisbees flying everywhere from the HPers. The nets did have to be raised higher up to protect the scoring table. They will need to add additional netting at events on the ends to protect crowds & any audio/visual personnel & equipment. The net opening where teams enter/exit will have to be modified so robots don't catch the drooping netting. there were issues today & we came up with a temporary fix. FIRST has been made aware & hopefully will provide a solution for week 1. Numerous robots were able to rise to the 10 point level during the last 30 seconds.

Re: Pre-Stop Build Scrimmages - What Have We Learned So Far?
 

One alliance in elims had all three at the 10-point level. It didn't win for them.

Shooting through the pyramid at the 6-point goal in auton. is quite a lead to make up. With an alliance partner also high % in that auton. goal makes an even better start. I was wondering if frisbee transfers during auton. would be possible as they were in RRumble.

Re: Pre-Stop Build Scrimmages - What Have We Learned So Far?
 

Getting to the feeder station and back is very easy.

Re: Pre-Stop Build Scrimmages - What Have We Learned So Far?
 

I think it will be harder in this game because you can't roll frisbees to your partner like you could with basketballs. I suppose a shooter could spit their frisbees on the floor for partners to pick up, but I think that would be too unpredictable to pull off.

Re: Pre-Stop Build Scrimmages - What Have We Learned So Far?
 

I would say easy but slower than vacuuming up all the frisbees under the goal and scoring them ;).

Re: Pre-Stop Build Scrimmages - What Have We Learned So Far?
 

One way to find out but you didn't come to Week Zero! ;)

Re: Pre-Stop Build Scrimmages - What Have We Learned So Far?
 

Not if you had a determined and skilful interloper like 2168 in your way. Ask 177 how their trips to the feeder went during elims at Suffield. 177 made a lot of good shots on 3&6 goal but they had to (?) do it from a certain spot next to their pyramid.

Re: Pre-Stop Build Scrimmages - What Have We Learned So Far?
 

From the webcast I saw of the later matches, 177 wasn't next to the pyramid, they were jammed up against the back edge of the pyramid.

Re: Pre-Stop Build Scrimmages - What Have We Learned So Far?
 

There will be some very effective feeder station shooters. One at the scrimmage I went to could make nearly every shot in the two point goal once it was lined up. And the driver was pretty good at getting it lined up.

Re: Pre-Stop Build Scrimmages - What Have We Learned So Far?
 

Whatever you call their location, 177 is usually worth watching. From their preferred position, I saw one disk that glanced off the pyramid bar. They backed up a little and the next two got them 6 points.

They were also sporting one side of "censored" tapes, presumably to add an air of mystery to their appearance. Then they took a spill and we saw England, we saw France, we saw Bobcats' underpants. :D With a "V" in the frame on that censored side, it's not too hard to surmise there will be a corner climber in 177's future.

177's human player has a hammer throw that got several 2-ptrs at blizzard time. Not sure, but he may have had double digit scoring in one match.

Re: Pre-Stop Build Scrimmages - What Have We Learned So Far?
 

Are they accurate though? I knew from the beginning that they were possible, but are they a game breaker unless blocked? Are they accurate enough to be superior to a half court shooter with a fast drive train and extremely accurate shooting?

Re: Pre-Stop Build Scrimmages - What Have We Learned So Far?
 

Did anyone see any Issues with bounce out? (Discs bouncing out of the goals)

Re: Pre-Stop Build Scrimmages - What Have We Learned So Far?
 

On the wood-backed goals at the event we went to, it was absolutely an issue. We saw robots that would only make half their shots due to bounce-out.
I have no idea how a lexan goal compares, but my advice would be to shoot softly and have a lot of spin on the Frisbee.

Re: Pre-Stop Build Scrimmages - What Have We Learned So Far?
 

Lexan usually absorbs force more than wood because of its flexing nature. That could potentially dampen shots that go in. We're planning on heading to the Atlanta Scrimmage which has the official field, so we can go and see if this is an issue.

Re: Pre-Stop Build Scrimmages - What Have We Learned So Far?
 

The bouncing is 50/50, but it depends on if the chain helps absorb the shot power if going full force. The shots may have to be softer to dampen the chains but we learned today there is a threshold of how you can do it. I really, really want some lexan goals to play with but I don't think it would make much of a difference IMO. Can anyone say any different?

Re: Pre-Stop Build Scrimmages - What Have We Learned So Far?
 

Unfortunately we aren't learning a lot about floor loading, which is the only thing as a strategist I have flipped on multiple times (which is obviously bad for strategy)

I think movement is incredibly easy if:
-your robot is short enough to go under the pyramid
-you have geared your drive to handle the open field environment, or you stacked your drive motors to a 6 or 8 motor drive to make it not matter
-your robot can handle going over frisbees right-side up and work with frisbees upside down
-don't plan on doing a lot of cross-field work after the endgame hailstorm

I think this is a great game for human players, but not Lunacy-tier.

Climbing is still a bit of open book, but the pages are starting to write themselves. A number of teams show the ability to climb. A few teams actually can climb. Fewer teams are big-climb specific bots, and even fewer of those will actually make more than 10 points on climb anyway.

Pyramid shooting, while not impossible, is a lot harder than I anticipated.

Frisbees will fly around in the scoring boxes but never seem to fall out. Regardless, there will be big matches this year where I think a popped-out frisbee or two will decide the outcome.

Bonus observation: if Week 1's arrival date is the steak in this picture, then I am the cat.

Re: Pre-Stop Build Scrimmages - What Have We Learned So Far?
 

In Auton, the frisbees only have to be touching your robot, so a robot could simply drive backwards and let another team shoot the 2 disks on the floor.

Re: Pre-Stop Build Scrimmages - What Have We Learned So Far?
 

Through our tests on almost a full size field, we found that pickup from ground from arbitrary positions on the field wasnt as effective as going to the feeder station and back to anywhere around our pyramid to shoot.

Our goal was to hit over 100+ points per round with no opposition and rain of frisbees which we did.
Hopefully, with the rain of frisbees, opposition, and other great points noted here, we can still contribute as best we can.

Sounds to me like floor feeders are only good during auto period, but then again, we havent seen the elite teams unveil their effective floor feeders as of yet.

Re: Pre-Stop Build Scrimmages - What Have We Learned So Far?
 

If there's a way the Elite's always find the path first.

Re: Pre-Stop Build Scrimmages - What Have We Learned So Far?
 

Watching the event yesterday made my stomach hurt. There were some bad matches going down til the elims. I hope that this was an indication of a shockingly small field (the Shakedown usually has twice as much teams in it) and not a bad game design.

Re: Pre-Stop Build Scrimmages - What Have We Learned So Far?
 

I had a feeling this is how it would work. We figured that floor pickup would be a big benefit in autonomous, not so much during the rest of the match. Too bad we never did get around to figuring out how to do the auton floor pickup. But we finally got our robot going enough to be able to run a few simulated one robot practice matches yesterday, and it looks like our concept of quick human loading combined with quick back-of-pyramid shooting will do us well.

Re: Pre-Stop Build Scrimmages - What Have We Learned So Far?
 

It was a Week Zero, but it won't be at BAE. Remember that BAE teams are notoriously defensive and that most teams at week zero weren't trying to win as much as they were trying to get some practice in.

At Week Zero, with an official field, bounce out wasn't a problem. I saw maybe one frisbee bounce out the entire day.

What to you mean by bad matches?

Re: Pre-Stop Build Scrimmages - What Have We Learned So Far?
 

Surprisingly, I didn't see a single upside down disc on the floor. The broadcast feed quality probably makes it hard to verify this statement. Can any attendees confirm/deny?

Re: Pre-Stop Build Scrimmages - What Have We Learned So Far?
 

At Week Zero, they were extremely rare during auto and teleop. Once the humans started throwing them willy nilly, however, they became more frequent.

Re: Pre-Stop Build Scrimmages - What Have We Learned So Far?
 

Which is weird, because in extremely advanced tests™ my teams did (throwing them at a wall), we found the discs would land upside down around 70% of the time. Maybe it's a human thing.

Re: Pre-Stop Build Scrimmages - What Have We Learned So Far?
 

Watching Suffield with 1058, we saw exactly what we had hoped for: dozens of frisbees on the ground, most of them under the goals, even before the blizzard. With a very effective floor pickup, they're hoping for a 36 point max in autonomous by eliminations in New Hampshire and lots of threes from in front of the pyramid.

Re: Pre-Stop Build Scrimmages - What Have We Learned So Far?
 

This brings up an interesting point, it makes sense for most to land upside down due to the frisbee's shape, but is this what everyone else is observing? Are most landing upside down? I haven't seen many matches so I'm just wondering.

Re: Pre-Stop Build Scrimmages - What Have We Learned So Far?
 

We had 3 or 4 mentors spend 30 minutes trying to make frisbees land upside down and only one frisbee did.

Re: Pre-Stop Build Scrimmages - What Have We Learned So Far?
 

There were some matches where there were more penalty points than scores by team skill and there were very low scoring matches where nothing much happened at all.

Re: Pre-Stop Build Scrimmages - What Have We Learned So Far?
 

Well... I don't even know what to believe in anymore :/

Re: Pre-Stop Build Scrimmages - What Have We Learned So Far?
 

Any team get the color ones on top for the 5 points?

Re: Pre-Stop Build Scrimmages - What Have We Learned So Far?
 

One team was able to a few times.. Although the team number escapes me..

Re: Pre-Stop Build Scrimmages - What Have We Learned So Far?
 

Did anyone see teams going for the floor Frisbee's during autonomous.

Re: Pre-Stop Build Scrimmages - What Have We Learned So Far?
 

We saw a West Michigan team yesterday at the 2771 Code Red lab shooting into the goal at the top of the tower at will. They are also hitting the three point shot without any trouble as well. I will not spoil their reveal by providing their team number. We also saw a team making high percentage shots from the feeder station.

Re: Pre-Stop Build Scrimmages - What Have We Learned So Far?
 

558 had success with the pyramid goal. Their tall shooter would lob nearly vertically. When I saw it first shooting under the 2 and 3 goals, I wondered what they were trying. Strangely they only shot three at a time. Their first try I saw for the pyramid was three non-scoring white disks. It drew cheers from the crowd. Other tries with colored disks had varying success.

Re: Pre-Stop Build Scrimmages - What Have We Learned So Far?
 

Yes. ;)

Re: Pre-Stop Build Scrimmages - What Have We Learned So Far?
 

At the Atlanta Scrimmage, it looked like 2415 was trying to set one up. Not sure if they succeeded or not.

Just some observations from my perspective:

1) cross court shooters are having trouble shooting accurately from far away. This was to be expected though.
2) Lots of teams are shooting their frisbees with an insane escape velocity, causing bounce back and inconsistency
3) The field really is open. Quick drivetrains are not being stopped

Re: Pre-Stop Build Scrimmages - What Have We Learned So Far?
 

Can you give a little more detail on that? It sounds like a good learning moment ... and probably a really entertaining video or photo set...

Re: Pre-Stop Build Scrimmages - What Have We Learned So Far?
 

Any teams that just went for the 30pt climb and were successfull?

Re: Pre-Stop Build Scrimmages - What Hav%e We Learned So Far?
 

Here are my observations from Suffield, though might not reflect the rest of the country.
1. Almost all Frisbees I saw were face up on the floor.
2. There were a few colored Frizbees being scored on the pyramids.
3. Only one robot was a floor retriever & only used it early, but I saw a huge opportunity for additional points to be made by scooping on the same side as they were shooting, possibly eliminating lost time going to their feeder stations.
4. I saw no bounce-outs at the Suffield. The flexibility of the lexan & the give of the chains eliminated that.
5. Due to the timing of last weeks major snow storm, we ended up with only 14 teams at Suffield. I know with that event, the robots that were there weren't anywhere near 100%. Also, there were so many teams that weren't there who have the potential to devastate their opponents.
6. The frenzy during the last 30 seconds was incredible during finals. With so many being tossed, it was hard to keep track of who was getting them in. I do know that the HP from 177 had a rocket arm and actually slammed the disks so hard into the player station that they almost deflected in half. He did make shots into the top goal. One thing for sure, anybody near the field will need to be paying attention at all times with powerhouses like that. Getting hit with one of those is going to be dangerous.
7. All in all I see the point scoring increasing rapidly as we go into week 1.

Re: Pre-Stop Build Scrimmages - What Have We Learned So Far?
 

Today at the Rally I saw X-Cats (191) having a ton of trouble with disks hitting the chains and bouncing out.

Re: Pre-Stop Build Scrimmages - What Have We Learned So Far?
 

Were they angle shots?

Re: Pre-Stop Build Scrimmages - What Have We Learned So Far?
 

Yeah we managed to get one up there from shooting from the ground one match, and our human player another match.

Re: Pre-Stop Build Scrimmages - What Have We Learned So Far?
 

First of all, excuse my typo of axle, which I can't edit now.

We are running a 6-wheel drive with a 1/8 drop on the centre wheel, with AM performance wheels geared quite aggressively for 15 and 7 ft/second (calculated including efficiency loss). Performance wheels are threaded for 10-32. Each wheel had 3 grade 8 10-32 bolts in them.

About 10 minutes into driving yesterday, we noticed VERY limp chain. Upon closer examination, we found that the entire sprocket assembly had sheared off of the middle wheel. All 3 bolts had sheared. We promptly replaced the wheel with the bolts ends lodged in with our spare, pulled all the wheels off, and added 3 more bolts to each wheel.

Today I drove just as aggressivly, and we haven't had any issues (at least not with the drivetrain :rolleyes:). I suspect they sheared when I was braking while downshifting, but I'm not sure.

Re: Pre-Stop Build Scrimmages - What Have We Learned So Far?
 

The goals were pretty tight so many bounced back all day long. When the shots got through whatever unfortunate team was in the middle got frisbees rained down on them as this video shows.

Re: Pre-Stop Build Scrimmages - What Have We Learned So Far?
 

I didn't see this earlier in the thread I think. Drive teams are going to have to become desensitized to frisbees slamming into their window a couple feet from their face from human players in the last 30 seconds, at least at events where a majority of the frisbees aren't ending up being used by robots.

Re: Pre-Stop Build Scrimmages - What Have We Learned So Far?
 

One of our primary goals at Suffield was to perfect our shooting angles for the 2, 3 and tower goals. That's what we were tweaking most of the day. We were pretty pleased with what we were able accomplish and have more up our sleeve for WPI and CT.

Re: Pre-Stop Build Scrimmages - What Have We Learned So Far?
 

Koko Ed - thanks for the video! Good driving on the part of your team.
One note: Your human players will not be able to feed the discs into your robot exactly as they did on the video. The feeder slots on a real field are not simple slots in the plexiglass; they have a covered chute on the driver's side of the of the feeder stations. So you won't be able to hold on to a disc as it passes through the slot.
Good luck!

Re: Pre-Stop Build Scrimmages - What Have We Learned So Far?
 

What penalties were committed the most? What do you think the reason of these bad matches was?

Re: Pre-Stop Build Scrimmages - What Have We Learned So Far?
 

there was a pretty small field and it seemed many robots were not complete (176's robot stood out. A former world champion and winner of several Blue Banners does not build a coffee table on wheels. they are probably still finishing up the competition bot) and thus did not score very well at all.
The match that stuck out to me was a qualification match where the blue alliance raced out to a 20 to nothing lead but lost the match 40 to 30 due to a pair of technical fouls incurred by the feeder by reaching their hands through the slot. There were a couple of other matches where there were more penalty points than points scored as well.

Re: Pre-Stop Build Scrimmages - What Have We Learned So Far?
 

Our practice field has the feeder station with the chutes on the slots so Hawa can get practice dropping the Frisbees into the robot properly.

Re: Pre-Stop Build Scrimmages - What Have We Learned So Far?
 

Excellent.

Re: Pre-Stop Build Scrimmages - What Have We Learned So Far?
 

What kind of pickup did you use?

Re: Pre-Stop Build Scrimmages - What Have We Learned So Far?
 

One thing @ Rally that stuck out was some teams sported some serious cannon that fired Frisbees at a shocking rate of speed. While FIRST has cracked down on Human Players unleashing an insane hail of Frisbees I actually wonder how soon is it FIRST issues a speed limit for firing Frisbees like they did with the robots back in 2006.

Re: Pre-Stop Build Scrimmages - What Have We Learned So Far?
 

I sure hope they don't....

Re: Pre-Stop Build Scrimmages - What Have We Learned So Far?
 

I don't think FIRST will issue a speed limit like they did in 2006. 2006 was the first competition with projectiles and I think the speed limit they enforced that year was more of a precaution than anything.

Unfortunately, I don't think there is a velocity that the frisbees can be effectively launched at that is also safe for human impact. That being said, if a robot at competition repeatedly shoots frisbees out of the field in an unsafe manner, I assume the refs will issue a warning followed by a yellow card for additional aggregious infractions.

Re: Pre-Stop Build Scrimmages - What Have We Learned So Far?
 

An expert in this can prove me wrong, but I don't think there is nearly as much of a risk in the speed of disc shots, because unlike HP shots, frisbee shots are at least guided towards a single point, and any wheeled shooter not shooting full court will have a fairly straight shot, only hitting shielded areas. Also, due to the height of the goal, shots don't seem to really be going as super high up as HP shots were, and any team that repeatedly shoots discs past the nets will be penalized-thus minimizing the risk of super fast shots leaving the field.

Excuse my confusing writings, obvious late night last night ::safety::

Re: Pre-Stop Build Scrimmages - What Have We Learned So Far?
 

Has anyone experienced issues with driving back to the feeder station to load frisbees and then going back to the other side to score? Like was there enough room to drive back and forth without significant interference?

It seems to me that this year, with the relative ease of scoring (in at least one goal) inherent to this competition, most teams will focus on offense rather than defense, is that something that's been observed?

Also, is there generally room to score from around the side of the pyramid? Our robot can score from ~20ish feet away, so we'd have to score from the side of the pyramid at an angle, are there any issues with blocking/traffic in those areas?

Re: Pre-Stop Build Scrimmages - What Have We Learned So Far?
 

There didn't seem to be any significant problems. As you can see in this video the middle is wide open enough for robots to go back and forth with ease.