Rules on building after bag day?
 

Hi guys,
What are the rules for building after bag day. For example, could we build and test a component after the bag day, and then reassemble it on our final robot at the competition?

Re: Rules on building after bag day?
 

You have a withholding allowance of 30 pounds. You can keep 30 pounds of prefabricated non COTS items which you can then use at the competition. Some teams keep their electronics for a practice robot, other teams keep a subsystem which needs more work to be reliable. Be very careful though. You don't want to go over the weight limit, and you don't want to spend your first day building your robot instead of practicing with it.

Good luck.

Re: Rules on building after bag day?
 

As long as your robot stays sealed in the bag and your component weighs less than the witholding allowance, you can build away. We pack a tape measure IN our bag in case we need emergency measurements. It worked great last year.

You would need to install on pit day of competition. You don't necessarily need to deconstruct your component if it weighs less than the allowance.

Re: Rules on building after bag day?
 

You can bring in 30 pounds of projects you have worked on.

Re: Rules on building after bag day?
 

Sorry, but what does "COTS" stand for?

Re: Rules on building after bag day?
 

Commercial off the shelf. So anything you buy pre-made and have not modified or assembled onto anything.

Re: Rules on building after bag day?
 

Emphasis mine.

What do you mean, "in case we need emergency measurements"? Once the robot is bagged, it's bagged. You're not supposed to design off of it, touch it, interact with it, probably not even look at it. After Ship Day, the robot ceases to exist in the physical world until your first regional.

Re: Rules on building after bag day?
 

Only a tape measure? We bag the smallest kid on the team just to be sure. ;)

But all kidding aside, I would read sections 4.1.4 and 4.1.5 of the manual as they are the rules on this matter.

Re: Rules on building after bag day?
 

We've been thinking about just declaring our smallest kid on our BOM and making her part of the robot.

Re: Rules on building after bag day?
 

Don't forget to pack them a sack lunch or two ;)

Re: Rules on building after bag day?
 

The Glossary in the game manual has a good definition. See p 90.

Re: Rules on building after bag day?
 

If your assembly weighs less than 30lbs and you don't need to bring in other fabricated items then bring it in assembled. If it weighs more than 30lbs then remove the COTS items like motors, transmissions, and wheels so that they are in their "as purchased" state and then only the fabricated items count as part of your 30lbs.

Re: Rules on building after bag day?
 

Actually, after reading sections 4.1.4 and 4.1.5, I still don't have a clear understanding of what "hands-off" means in R18.

Lacking an official definition of "hands-off", I would actually interpret this as meaning that the robot cannot be modified, adjusted, or tweaked while it is in the bag. Measuring would not violate that. Turning wrenches, drilling holes, and wiring components would violate that.

:confused:

Re: Rules on building after bag day?
 

Think of the old days when we put the robot in a box and Fed-X hauled it away. That's "Hands-Off" and that's the way you should consider it. Putting a tape measure in the bag, then manipulating it through the plastic cannot be construed as "Hands-Off", and , I feel, a violation of the spirit of the lock-up rules.

I guess anyone with the courage of their convictions could put a question in to the Q & A asking if it is legal to put a tape measure in the bag so the team could continue to take measurements so they can work on fabricated parts, but then some of us would probably rather not know.

Come on guys, you know what FIRST expects!

Dr. Bob
Chairman's Award is not about building the robot. Every team builds a robot.

Re: Rules on building after bag day?
 

Consider this statement in 4.1 of the robot rules:

"When reading these rules, please use technical common sense (engineering thinking) rather than “lawyering” the interpretation and splitting hairs over the precise wording in an attempt to find loopholes. Try to understand the reasoning behind a rule."

Now consider what Bag & Tag is -- a less expensive replacement for shipping crates. I would think that using your CAD drawings for measurements after bagging is "hands off", but a measuring tape, even through plastic, needs hands.

Now...it was far simpler to box up that small team member when we still used crates.... And air holes were easier, too. :D

Re: Rules on building after bag day?
 

You're supposed to treat the robot as if it's in a crate in a drayage facility like the old days of shipping. Obviously, you can't measure/inspect/interact with it if it's in a drayage facility.

Re: Rules on building after bag day?
 

That's the trouble with tradition. Only we older fogies remember it. Talk of drayage facilities and crates only confuses the newer guys. In the absence of specific instruction to not even look at the bagged robot, what should a fresh mind think of that? If FIRST wanted such stringent measures, they're capable of writing the rules to fit their desires. An opaque bag would go a long way to reinforce the behaviors being espoused here.

BTW our little, inside "guy" has a pillow and an iPad. :D ;)

Re: Rules on building after bag day?
 

You should note R-18E, which stipulates that you can work on your withholding allowance without interfacing with the robot. I would interpret making a measurement as interfacing with the robot, particularly if the tape measure were in the bag. However, if you were to make measurements on parts you were planning to need measurements on before the robot went into the bag, note the measurements, and use the notes, you'd be just fine. Or if you built a jig to simulate that part of the robot, you'd probably be OK.

Re: Rules on building after bag day?
 

So could we leave the cRIO and motor controllers and other electronics stuff out of the bag and work on image processing and programming?

Re: Rules on building after bag day?
 

It depends on how you're doing on your withholding allowance. If you leave all of your wires hooked up, it's no longer in its COTS state, it has been modified to fit the function of your robot, if only slightly. You can still bring that sort of thing in, just make sure it (plus any other parts you bring) is under the 30 pound limit. The other option is taking it apart and wiring it up at competition, which could take away time from other things, like getting the rest of your robot ready and going to practice matches. There aren't restrictions against coding during this period, so do as much of that as you want.

Re: Rules on building after bag day?
 

I fully agree that the presumed intent is that there's an invisible fence around the robot. However, I think the GDC recognizes that it is honor-system. I also thought their choice of "interfacing" was interesting. Interfacing to me means putting parts into slots, accessing electronics, etc.

Overall, this section could use some clarity of intent for those of us who are post-drayage. Failing that, they should ship out black plastic bags rather than clear and force everyone to put 30 lbs of packing peanuts in it on top of the robot. Maybe packing peanuts could be the scoring pieces for 2015's game? A robot version of Tricky Tricky Trash Truck? (Who gets the reference?)

Yes, I understand that it's straying into rules-lawyering. No, we don't interact with the robot in any way once it is bagged (other than moving it out of the way because it is inevitably in the wrong spot for the night's planned activities). However, I'm not sure what you can do to prevent teams from interacting with the robot under the current system.

Re: Rules on building after bag day?
 

Do bumpers count as part of the 30 lb limit?

Re: Rules on building after bag day?
 

No.

Re: Rules on building after bag day?
 

If you're only working on programming, I would consider only leaving out the cRio and maybe the camera. You can build a new electronics board that won't go on the robot, therefore it wouldn't count towards your 30 lbs. The cRio and camera should be COTS. The only thing I wouldn't be sure about is the camera power cord, if it's cut. But at competition, you can put the cRio and camera back on and still have most of your 30 lbs to spare!

Re: Rules on building after bag day?
 

How does having a tape measure in the bag help unless you rip the bag to use it?

Re: Rules on building after bag day?
 

The bag is flexible. They're manipulating the measuring tool through the bag, which is probably too literal an interpretation of "hands off" for most of us.