Re: Shooting full-court: The uprising of the human-loader shooters
 

1. It would not be hard to defend that corner loader and stop them from scoring/passing discs.

2. This would, then, make that corner only/full-court only shooter pretty much a defender because he cannot do anything else

3. Where are you getting 40% is 18 discs?

Re: Shooting full-court: The uprising of the human-loader shooters
 

Your strategy only works if the full-court shooter is shooting from 60"
In my opinion, no short (<30") robot can strategically considered a full court shooter because they can be blocked so easily.

Re: Shooting full-court: The uprising of the human-loader shooters
 

No, they can be but they just have to be opportunistic. If they get there and load up and are unblocked, then take the shots from there and reload; but if you get a face full of robot, then bolt out(which most likely would catch the defender off guard and they would probably not be able to react fast enough to avoid the penalty) and bolt for your pyramid. Then you could either look for more ground discs or go back to the corner and repeat the process. Unless that <30" full-court shooter cannot floor load, then they just have to be opportunistic and a defacto-defense robot.

Re: Shooting full-court: The uprising of the human-loader shooters
 

Do you know if there are any videos of the Rally (aside from the Harlem Shake)?

Re: Shooting full-court: The uprising of the human-loader shooters
 

That's a forced penalty, that would result in the full court shooter being penalized.

But still in sense of the the term "Full Court Shooter" that everyone is this thread is implying is a shooter that won't be blocked by a 60" robot and can stay in the corner indefinitely if needed until they want to climb.

Our robot shoots from 60"..unless we are facing an 84" tall robot..no one will be blocking our shots...(I speculate this)
We have the ability to shoot from the autoline, the half courtlline and pyramid as well as floor load (maybe). So in my opinion a 60" tall full court shooter is 100x more effective.

Re: Shooting full-court: The uprising of the human-loader shooters
 

Its not a forced penalty. The full court shooter is playing the game and the defender is impeding the flow and would get the penalty.

Re: Shooting full-court: The uprising of the human-loader shooters
 

No it wouldn't. Its just like last year. If you are close enough to get touched by a robot in a loading zone or touching their pyramid and you get touched, while they are still touching said locations, you will get a penalty not the robot in the safe areas .

Re: Shooting full-court: The uprising of the human-loader shooters
 

Here are some numbers to toss around:

--assuming the full court shooter is approximately 52 ft away from the high goal.--

-A robot shooting from 30" off the ground can be blocked by a 60" tall robot standing ~7ft or closer.
-A robot shooting from 30" off the ground can be blocked by a 84" tall robot standing ~13ft or closer.
-A robot shooting from 60" off the ground CANNOT be blocked by another robot that is 60" tall.
-A robot shooting from 60" off the ground can be blocked by a robot 84" tall standing ~5ft or closer.

*This is assuming none of the shooting robots have exceptionally high arcing shot trajectories.

Basically, 30" high full court shooters will have to be opportunistic while 60" high shooters will be able to shoot all 45 disks regardless of defense so long as a partners agrees to sit in front of them.

Regards, Bryan

Re: Shooting full-court: The uprising of the human-loader shooters
 

3) 40% x 45 white disc = 18

2) Absolutely true; if there are no discs on the floor (i.e. discs are not being shot from the feeder station), the floor feeder is absolutely useless.

1) It would be ALOT easier to defend a robot trying to leave the feeder station (and transverse the field) than it would be against a cross-court shooter who has no plans of leaving. As BJC has put it, a 60" feeder-bot would be blocked by an 84" defender 4' away. That is far enough away to avoid the auto-zone penalty but close enough to still block shots (very hard shots mind you).

In that case, one possible solution is to use your 3rd teammate as a buffer for your cross-court shooter; to keep the opposing defender out of the parabolic path of the discs.

Is the system perfect? No; none is. But it's WAY more efficient than any other.

Re: Shooting full-court: The uprising of the human-loader shooters
 

You do realize that each alliance has way more than 45 white discs.

Re: Shooting full-court: The uprising of the human-loader shooters
 

??? No they don't. Each alliance starts with 45 white discs and 6 red or blue discs divided among the HP's how the alliance sees fit.

Re: Shooting full-court: The uprising of the human-loader shooters
 

Ummm... 3.1.1.C&D
6 Red & 45 White DISCS are located in the Red ALLIANCE STATION.
6 Blue & 45 White DISCS are located in the Blue ALLIANCE STATION.

Unless I'm reading this wrong...

Re: Shooting full-court: The uprising of the human-loader shooters
 

Oh, I thought the rules said each alliance got 118 discs. My bad.

Re: Shooting full-court: The uprising of the human-loader shooters
 

118 is the total number of discs.

If each alliance had 118 discs the rules would allow us to carry more than 4 at a time.

Re: Shooting full-court: The uprising of the human-loader shooters
 

It sounds contradictory in terms of what is easier to defend.
If you can successfully park your robot and block feeder station shots, how is that not easier to defend?

Re: Shooting full-court: The uprising of the human-loader shooters
 

You're right in the qualification matches, but in my experience, no one plays defense in qualifications. You'd be lucky to run into a team that is humble enough to play defense instead of offense. However, I think it becomes very evident to those higher ranked teams in eliminations that if there is a cross court shooter, then immediately following autonomous, it becomes priority to stop that shooter. You'll likely see alliance picks and defensive strategies geared to stop that shooter. I think it will be likely that your cross court shooter bot might have some heavy pressure placed on it in the match, which will make you miss some shots, even if you are 60" tall. Don't forget that humans are intimidated by pressure.

Re: Shooting full-court: The uprising of the human-loader shooters
 

Also defensive robots have the quicker trip to your protected feeder station than you do. If they can get in your way and slow you down or stop you from getting into position you have become useless.

Re: Shooting full-court: The uprising of the human-loader shooters
 

I can see how my statement may have been clear. Let me word it differently.
Any robot with wheels and a passable driver can play defense on a robot trying to transverse the field. ONLY a robot 84"(or so) tall within a certain distance can play effective defense on a park-and-shoot.

AND... if push comes to shove, all the park-and-shoot needs to do to overcome the defender 4 feet away is to pull away from the wall (like they are going to leave the feeder station), turn to their right, and fade back to the opposing teams driver station to distance themselves from the defender and make their shots. Then load up and repeat.

This routine should take mere seconds and should still allow you to to empty 36-40 of the feeder station discs. Meaning the 84" bot would have to jockey for blocking position.

Of course you could always go the easy route and just have your robot #3 play D for your cross-court shooter.

Re: Shooting full-court: The uprising of the human-loader shooters
 

How are you calculating this number?
A relatively flat shot will rise 54" (114"-60") over ~50 feet. Which gives a slope of ~1 inch of rise per foot of travel. That would require 24 feet of space(almost half of the field!) before a frisbee would clear a 84" tall robot.

Re: Shooting full-court: The uprising of the human-loader shooters
 

That's not how Frisbees Fly. You can get them to altitude quickly and they naturally level off and travel relatively flat for quite a distance.

Also, many of you are not taking into consideration Frisbee curve and the defensive robot's own tower. A tall defensive robot can get blocked by its own tower if a cross court shooter has dialed in their trajectory.

Re: Shooting full-court: The uprising of the human-loader shooters
 

That will be one heck of an impressive targeting system and will require an amazingly consistent shooting mechanism since the offensive robot would have to do it on the move while the defensive robot is bouncing off them every couple of seconds, once the offensive robot pulls away from the protected feeder station.

Re: Shooting full-court: The uprising of the human-loader shooters
 

I'm waiting for a full court shooter that does this: http://i.imgur.com/Ez23N.png

Re: Shooting full-court: The uprising of the human-loader shooters
 

I modeled the situation in Cad then pulled dimensions from that. I approximated the shot trajectory of the disks being shot based on the many full court shooters from various teams on youtube/chiefdelphi.

This is true, with serious spin disks could be curved so that they go over the opponent pyramid. However, between the pyramid and the safe zone there is still quite a lot of room for a defender to stop the disks before they get even that far.

I think the core of the problem is as you describe Paul. Disks naturally level off and “float” in the downward half of their trajectory. This makes it difficult to shoot them with a high arc. What I think would be interesting would be shooting full field upside down disks. Upside down disks don’t have the floating tendency which means one can probably shoot them with a much higher (unblockable) trajectory and still make them into the goal.

Interesting thread.
Regards, Bryan

Re: Shooting full-court: The uprising of the human-loader shooters
 

Well, 10 discs start on the floor. And if the floor loading robot can score some of those discs in autonomous, it's already worth having.

What? When did Georgia become so soft? I remember going to the Peachtree in 2006, and having tons of defense be played not only in qualifications, but even practice matches (which I was none too happy about). And just about every event in the Mid-Atlantic and New England is loaded with defense, even durign qualifications.

Re: Shooting full-court: The uprising of the human-loader shooters
 

Maybe outdoors with a strong onshore flow! Although, the Santa Anna's might do it as well.

Re: Shooting full-court: The uprising of the human-loader shooters
 

When 2415 is the highest scoring robot and not a single robot crossed over to play defence on them during most of the qualifications and eliminations in the last 2 years, I call that a lack of defence (Not taking anything away from 2415's accomplishments at all, and I think even with defence they would've won every match that they did).

Re: Shooting full-court: The uprising of the human-loader shooters
 

What you are starting to understand, and the majority of FIRST doesn't (not including most on CD) is that the majority of FIRST teams are not capable or at least not interested in executing strategy, building within their means, or in general being competitive. EWCP had a great analysis of average scores over the years and it was truly eye-opening.

Because of this, many teams will be able to take advantage and depending on the current gameplay be able to score full-field shots until someone finally realizes what is going on.

Re: Shooting full-court: The uprising of the human-loader shooters
 

I feel like the "Chief Delphi Bubble" is larger and thicker than ever for some reason. There will not be a lot of strong defense because the teams capable of strategizing for a strong defense are likely mechanically capable of making more impact on offense, and teams more mechanically inclined to see success on defense do not have the ability, knowledge, or willpower to develop a strategy around it.

People also think "everyone should be climbing 10 points." If 70% of teams have one successful 10 point climb, that would surprise me.

People think full court shooters will see issues all the time, but in reality, they don't need to display that capability all weekend to get a high seed pick, and most alliances won't plan for a strategy to counter it in elims.

Re: Shooting full-court: The uprising of the human-loader shooters
 

Any alliance that is playing to win will plan on possibly facing a full court shooter and find a second pick that has a couple of pounds to spare and provide them with a simple pvc picket fence that tops out at 83.75";)

Re: Shooting full-court: The uprising of the human-loader shooters
 

I was shocked and appalled at the lack of defense at regionals last year, especially on non-key shooters.

This year, your best bet for defending well-built full-court shooters is to prevent them from getting to their loading zone in the first place (using your own pyramid to help, of course) -- which is easier said than done, especially if they've realized this already and have the drive train to plow you out of the way.

That said, I hope the penalties are called better than they were at Buckeye last year... There were quite a few situations where the defending bot was in the key, preventing the offensive robot from touching it, and fouls were called on the defending bot. :/

Re: Shooting full-court: The uprising of the human-loader shooters
 

You're insane! That will never work. :rolleyes: I have yet to see any shooters utilizing leaf blowers to assist in frisbee lift, but that would make my day. Also, defending robots using leaf blowers will be an instant favorite of mine.

With a gamepiece so dependent on air, you'd think there would be more teams trying to control this medium!