Chief Delphi - Shooting full-court: The uprising of the human-loader shooters

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Re: Shooting full-court: The uprising of the human-loader shooters

Over the weekend we had close to 10 teams on our practice field and 2 of them were full court shooters and dead accurate. I think they will be common and will dominate the frisbee area. By week 6 climbing will decide the fate of matches more than anything else IMO

Re: Shooting full-court: The uprising of the human-loader shooters

Here is our team's thread on full court shooting. A link to youtube of a full court shots are contained:
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...hreadid=113478

While at a scrimmage we were able to maintain an accuracy rating of almost 90% with the limited frisbees we had access to. The most we found to fire in a single round was 28 and we hit 24 of those. 2 of the missed shots were us lining up our robot. I don't have good video of that particular round, but I'm sure someone does. There were enough witnesses that someone must have that video.

Re: Shooting full-court: The uprising of the human-loader shooters

Quote:

Originally Posted by XaulZan11 (Post 1236007)

I'm not sure this is a direct comparison. The 469's robot was hard to come up with and hard to design/build. Not every average team could have done it. The fact that there was one amazing team (and maybe 2 other very good teams with 51 and 125), that had the design makes it different. We have already seen/heard about countless teams that have sucessfully built full field shooters. Seems too easy for a potentially huge payout.

I agree 100%. The two situations really are different.

469 in 2010 executed a fundamentally innovative strategy that many teams wouldn't have been able to execute even if they had come up with it. It's not like no one thought of shooting from the feeding station this year, there were threads about it from the very first days of build season. That many teams have (apparently) executed this strategy proves that it is not extremely difficult.

Is it a good thing for FRC? I don't really think so. There will be a lot of these shooters, and if they are as common as they seem on CD, it seems like most matches will have one. Is watching a robot line up and do one repetitive task match after match really inspiring? I like seeing robots that drive around and pick up things. Opinions, of course, will differ on this point.

If they did decide that they wanted to "stop" full court shooters, what could Manchester do? They could make climbing worth a lot more, encouraging teams not to spend all the match at the feeder station and to make the shooting points worth a lot less. They could give penalties for staying at the feeder station more than, say, 20 seconds. They could also make all robots shoot from in front of a certain point.

But FIRST won't decide this. They tend to really want counterintuitive strategies to succeed, and do a lot to encourage strategic creativity. In any case, full court shooting was so clearly legal at the beginning of the build season that I don't think that they can do much in good faith to prevent it at this point. We shall see.

Re: Shooting full-court: The uprising of the human-loader shooters

Today we tested our full court shooter and had acuracy above 90 percent we should have a video up Wednesday. The full court had a large window and was the easiest and fastest to line up with even without a camera

Re: Shooting full-court: The uprising of the human-loader shooters

Quote:

Originally Posted by DampRobot (Post 1236123)

But FIRST won't decide this. They tend to really want counterintuitive strategies to succeed, and do a lot to encourage strategic creativity. In any case, full court shooting was so clearly legal at the beginning of the build season that I don't think that they can do much in good faith to prevent it at this point. We shall see.

I've already got a few strategies to prevent full court shooters from gaining much up my sleeve, but we'll see if it's needed at Palmetto.

Going for a full court shooter isn't an innovative approach. Teams have been trying to find the simplest way to win for as long as everyone remembers. However, becoming the next 71 from 02 or the next 469 from '10 takes A LOT of skill and guided effort. Maybe 1 or 2 teams can pull it off, but you'd better have a back up plan if your shooter gets defended.

Re: Shooting full-court: The uprising of the human-loader shooters

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arpan (Post 1235973)

I think that effectiveness will vary based on other factors. Many full court shooters i've seen are less than 30 inches tall. Another important factor is bouncing- it is extremely difficult to shoot full court shots with just the right amount of power so that they do not bounce from the goals.

Our team's been throwing around the idea of using off-the shelf items to build a 60 inch box around our alliance's defensive robot during elimination ( if we make it that far).

"Here, put this box on your robot. It'll make you better."

XD

U talking about our bot? Btw good to see you guys again at the Wildstang invitational.

Re: Shooting full-court: The uprising of the human-loader shooters

What scares me the most about these robots is not their effectiveness but if we're allied with a bot that does this, we only load from the human player zone, not from the floor, so if they sit at a station and drain the 45 but only hit 50 - 60% of their shots, we won't be able to get any discs. Hopefully there will be an amicable way to split the amount of discs between all alliance partners.

Re: Shooting full-court: The uprising of the human-loader shooters

For those who attended the scrimmages, were the full-court shooters shooting for the two-point goals or the three-point goals ? In our experience, it was a lot easier to dial in on the two-pointer than on the three-pointer (though this may be due to inconsistencies in our "disposable" wheel and/or our feed). The vast majority of videos of full-court shooting while mounted to a robot that I have seen have been two-point shots.

Re: Shooting full-court: The uprising of the human-loader shooters

Quote:

Originally Posted by BMartin 234 (Post 1236232)

I've seen a team make all four in a row into the three point goal. They only tried a few times, but if they had it aimed right, it was consistent.

I really hope that enough teams bring 60/84" walls as a possible add on to their robot.

Re: Shooting full-court: The uprising of the human-loader shooters

Quote:

Originally Posted by Donut (Post 1235629)

From the perspective of an average team facing off against a robot like that, I'd say yes. It's one thing to get steam rolled by an elite team because they just execute so much better than you do; it's quite another to know before the match the starts that your robot is physically incapable of beating an opponent regardless of execution. I think this is more applicable to a bot like 71 in 2002 where the match was over in the first 5 seconds if you were slower than them, at least 469 had to have a partner start scoring for them before they were unstoppable.

Early in the season, your comments about 469 were true. By their second district, their kicking had improved substantially. Between going 2/2 in autonomous and pulling out of the tower if necessary, 469 could very easily "start the cycle" themselves.

Granted, the "cycle" would operate a much larger volume if their alliance partners added to it and maintained it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Feroz1325 (Post 1235912)

Though this strategy (full court shooting) is not a choke-hold strategy, if executed properly it could be close. Consider the elimination round alliance of a full court shooter, a robot with floor pickup and a third pick defensive bot....we will call them the red alliance.
The full court shooter could fire discs at the goal while the floor pickup bot could collect the missed disks. If a blue robot comes to block the shot, the red defensive bot could simply defend the blue defensive bot. This would require two robots from the blue alliance to defend the full court shooter and essentially make the match 1v1.
Do full court shooters ruin the game? No. They just add a new level of strategy, i know my team will be brainstorming ways to defeat (and work with) teams like this.

This strategy could never be close to a chokehold, simply because the other alliance can mirror it. There's no scenario in which this strategy is a guaranteed win, regardless of your opponent's actions.

The only example of a chokehold strategy being executed in FRC history is moving all 3 goals into your scoring zone in 2002 (and ensuring none of your robots are in the opponent's end zone and not taking penalties). If you were successfully able to do that, it was literally impossible for your opponent to outscore you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by XaulZan11 (Post 1236007)

2337 and 2992 also had ball deflectors that physically attached to the tower, but neither of them directed the balls at the goals.

Re: Shooting full-court: The uprising of the human-loader shooters

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris is me (Post 1236241)

Or possibly their climber ;)

Re: Shooting full-court: The uprising of the human-loader shooters

I had a thought about this after our scrimmage last week. The long range shooters were hitting with about 50% accuracy. If one was paired with a floor pickup bot to "clean up" after the long range bot, the pair could be devestating.

Even if a long range team is hitting at 90%, the floor bot can grab some frisbees from the middle while he waits for some to accumilate by the goals.

A few 20-30 point hangs later and you have yourself a blue banner.

Re: Shooting full-court: The uprising of the human-loader shooters

What happens if a full court-shooting robot can ignore even the tallest or defense bots? What if there are two full court shooters on an alliance?

Personally, I think these situations will end in something similar to playing a match against the 'choke hold' shooting of 1717. "Keep them out of the key/away from the balls or lose."

6 cim drives are also going to be interesting.

Re: Shooting full-court: The uprising of the human-loader shooters

How will that work when a full court shooter tells an accurate pyramid shooter that they can't have their 8-12 loader discs? This was certainly premeditated by FIRST and seems to me the essence of the game. Team work, negotiation = Gracious Professionalism. Most aspects of this game will be effected by an individual robots decision on how to play. I predict the most successful teams will take the I out of alliance.

Re: Shooting full-court: The uprising of the human-loader shooters

Quote:

Originally Posted by T^2 (Post 1235455)

Seems like a good year for a fanbot...

Check out this thread:
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...hreadid=113931