Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 

Your right some human players were just too good. And when we are talking about it we might as well just get rid of some teams shooters they are obviously just too good and provide an unfair advantage to them. And the teams that can climb to 30 points? UNFAIR! get rid of them

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 

After a couple days ruminating on this, I think we have to give the GDC and other powers-that-be some slack.

I don't think they failed to anticipate a flurry of discs in the last 30 seconds.

Rather, I think they failed to anticipate how incredibly bad the feeders would be at throwing the discs and keeping them on the field. :eek:

There must not have been the same problem with regard to robots shooting discs. Had there been, they would have been able to modify a rule and make it a foul any time a disc went over the net or alliance wall.

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 

I did say *simulated* life. :)

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 

My $0.02:

I don't have time to read through all the comments. If I repeat what someone else has already said, my bad.

Several people have raised that the GDC should have seen this coming. I agree - partly for reasons already mentioned (30 seconds to throw discs and students actually throw them :rolleyes: and bad aim (let's be honest -many of us are athletes, but not as high of a proportion as on, say the ultimate Frisbee team)) - but partly for another reason.

3081 is a young team. However, even the rookies had some idea that the discs would be flying everywhere. This being my second year, I witnessed basketballs flying everywhere and hitting everything - thank heavens they were made of foam. One kid remarked shortly after the reveal, "This is sure going to make the endgame interesting if everyone's still throwing things and those things are much harder."

My point: We throw things. We throw things badly. If it hurts when these things hit us in gym class, we shouldn't have dozens of these things flying around in a very short frame of time.

Am I disappointed? Well, not really by the rule change, but in the GDC's failure to recognize this beforehand. I would have preferred some arbitrary last-minute bumper rule over this. Perhaps the GDC should make safety a priority BEFORE bag and tag day. ::ouch:: At least they did it before week 2, and at least they did it at some point. I would rather be angry about this rule change than angry about an injured teammate or volunteer.

That was longer than I expected. Sorry :o

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 

That is really annoying I was looking forward to the frisbee throwing as the human player :(. But on another note, are there any videos of these matches? A 'blizzard' of frisbees sounds hilarious.

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 

Sorry. Searched for a video of the one 3081 went to and only found a video of the Harlem Shake that happened there. :mad:

As a practice driver for a few matches, it was scary. I remember saying, "Someone's gonna get hurt." Hopefully with the rule change, no one will (other than the occasional metal splinter here and there; for some reason we can never seem to stop those).

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 

There were lots of discs on the floor prior to the blizzard in each case. If I were a referee in that situation, would be watching out for discs instead of watching the game. Good rule, unfortunate timing IMHO.

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 

To offset the lack of white frisbee's, for the floor picker uppers, maybe we can limit the 30 point climbers to only 2 frisbees carried to dump in the 5 point goal? :rolleyes:

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 

All I can say is WOW! I see a lot of controversy for & against the rule change. Those who read CD all the time have seen my responses. I feel for the HPers who have practiced for the past 6 weeks. GDC can only guess the ferocity of players because when practicing, the will to win is not the same as the real thing. I also see very unprofessional responses. Remember Gracious Professionalism. The real world always springs the unexpected upon us. Instead of complaining, brainstorming is the next best thing.
I was Field Supervisor at Suffield, as well field setup. We did raise the netting another 12" to a total of 14'. It still didn't address the issue of the Frisbees flying over the driver stations & past the corners on either side. The DJ did get hit on the head with a Frisbee and he was behind the netting. You can't assume that everybody will be watching Frisbees all the time. I saw some real powerhouse throws. Enough to shake the driver's station walls. I loved to see that last 30 seconds, the frenzied throwing, the energy. But at what expense.
Let's move forward. Be professional.

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 

OK before I make this comment, let me just say that Safety is Paramount.
If the GDC can't guarantee event safety, then they have to act. I get that and support that.

Warning:
Please don't hit me with a hammer throw for my next opinion. :)
What Bothers me about the decision is that there seems to be no attempt to keep the "Spirit of the Game Design" (i.e. minimize the impact of the decision on teams that designed for the blizzard). There might be a variety of solutions, but I think they should at least place extra disks on the field in the last 30 seconds. What the right number would be, I will leave up to those more brilliant than myself.
The reality is that anything done at this point would be an approximation. I just wish the GDC would try to create that approximation.

OK I will duck now. :ahh:

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 

I expect that the GDC, FRC engineering and FRC logistics all had roles to play in making this decision. After all, changing the game was not the only way to achieve an acceptable degree of safety: there were clearly alternatives that would have left the game intact, the most obvious one being more netting to protect spectators and hockey helmets for the field staff. But I suspect the logistics and engineering staff would have had something to say about the cost and schedule constraints related to the implementation of those changes.

In assessing the costs and benefits, there's no a priori reason why changing the game couldn't be the least-bad of several onerous resolutions. So as long as the GDC gave due consideration to the alternatives, I don't fault them for it, because I understand their responsibilities.

That doesn't mean I have to like it.


As for why I don't have to like it, consider that FIRST is not supposed to be a perfect simulation of real life—as sufficient demonstration of that, would we accept it if all our conventions about gracious professionalism were substantially diluted? That would be like real life. FIRST's real and perceived leaders write volumes of documentation every year, give many speeches, set many examples, and nowhere do they state or even clearly imply that "this is real life, with all its hazards".

FRC is a sandbox where many of the constraints of real life are lifted or simplified. One of the most valuable of those simplifications is a self-contained rule set that is freshly imposed at kickoff every year, so that precedent—notoriously hard to keep straight—is marginalized. Cheating is disincentivized by fostering a sense of "co-opertition" that dampens many of the less desirable dynamics of a high school sporting event. And as long as FRC sticks to the plan, it's a very good thing, because everyone can focus on the multitude of intentional challenges the games bring, without worrying about the full range of perils the world has to offer. Skills are developed that way, even if it means they'll need to be honed a little to be useful in the real world.

But every time FIRST springs a big change on the teams after kickoff, the wheels come off. We're forced to worry about the effects of the change—which often disproportionately affect a subset of teams. We question FIRST's motivations and its competence, and as was suggested above, we consider whether we should be accounting for the GDC's unwelcome surprises in our design processes.

And the truth is, we do have to account for that kind of stuff. Not because FIRST tells us to, but because they usually inadvertently give us a reason to do so. Human error is a real-world constraint that they never express or explain, but which inevitably finds its way into the competition. That's a lesson about how the world works, but simultaneously an indictment of FIRST. Whether or not that real-world lesson has any place in FRC, it would be preferable to teach it without introducing systematic inequity, and without the GDC making itself look silly.

Maybe this is the more important lesson: even though the GDC weighed the options and made their choice, there was no 100% right decision available to be made. Next time, hopefully the GDC avoids getting backed into that particular corner, and we can concentrate more on the game, and less on the meta-game.

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 

If there was a safe way for field personnel to introduce the disks during the last 30 seconds I would agree with you, Jared. I am willing to bet many teams opting for a quick ground pick up figured that they could get off two loads of disks and do a quick 10 pt hang in the final 30 seconds (with a field littered with human disks)...34 pts to help neutralize a climber. 8-10 disks flung on to the field might do the trick. Then again, week one may just reveal there is still an abundance of disks on the floor anyways and this adjustment would be a moot point, right? We are counting on your team to show the way...;)

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 

I was on the side of a field while human players were practicing throws, only one throw at a time. I was at the opposite feeder station (off the field) looking at our robot.

It was very stressful and I was nervous about being hit. Frisbees come will come in fast and numerous with 6 people throwing. If referees paid attention to incoming discs and missed a call on the field, everyone would be up in arms about that.

FIRST is putting safety first. Yes, they moved your cheese without telling you. It's time to let this one go.

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 

Mike-
Reading through these comments, a majority of them contain positive remarks regarding the push for a safer environment. Very few of them are calling into question the creation of a safer arena.

What many of us are focused on, is how can we create a safer arena environment, yet still maintain the same type of gameplay that would play out under the original rules. Many people have proposed some good ideas including placing discs on the floor at some point in the match (30 secs remaining), while others have proposed harsher penalties for a frisbee leaving the playing field when tossed by a human player.

I think these types of discussions are more than appropriate, and a good exercise for game design and how to avoid these types of changes in the future.

-Brando