Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 

At the outset, the GDC must have done some thinking about how the last 30 seconds would be played. The total number of disks in the game was decided at some point based on factors like expected scoring rate, percentage success and how many could be fit through those slots. It seems likely, however, that week 0 performances and machinery is quite a bit below the expected level of play for the game. If the GDC was expecting some number of disks to have already been scored (and out of play) at the 30 second mark, the remaining numbers of disks in a week 0 game probably far exceeded that number.

Then there is the time allotted for HP activity. I wonder if the GDC even considered reducing it to 20 or 15 seconds or even 10. Maybe that's too great a change to the match management software to have been considered. We should be used to the GDC offering only partial explanations for their decisions by now.:rolleyes:

Teams do not bring their completed machines to week 0, in general. I heard several explanations about the robots being the practice machine or not carrying all mechanisms. Floor pickup devices were among those listed as missing or under development. It was obvious that even in the elimination matches, the teams had intermediate goals for their play that were only experimental or developmental. For example, if a shooter had been out of adjustment, the team would explore alternate tactics that did not involve shooting.

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 

FRC Team isn't to concerned about the rule change. We can floor harvest or human load. We can pick up frisbees right side up or inverted. No Problem.

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 

Our team originally made our floor pick-up for autonomous mode, so no harm done there. However, a large concern in the design of our pick-up was inverted discs. We decided we needed to be able to right them since the "hammer throw" was the most common way we could see teams throwing discs at the end, and they landed upside-down. We could have designed a much simpler frisbee pick-up if we knew that there probably wasn't going to be very many (if any) upside down frisbees.

That being said, +24 points in autonomous is still too good to pass up!

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 

You think telling 6 overzealous teenagers that now they only have 15 seconds to score as many points as possible is going to make things less crazy? One of the recorded matches from Suffield shows an HP hurling frisbees overhand behind his back every 1-2 seconds. Spray and Pray sure came to mind there.

I think telling them they only have 6 discs and 30 seconds makes things better. Then they have an incentive to make every disc count and are much more likely to be accurate.

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 

I think it primarily IS a safety fix; yes 12 is still plenty of discs, but, assuming half of all discs are shot (low-mid level play?), 12 discs being thrown is a lot less than 45 discs being thrown.

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 

While the blizzard of frisbees at the end of a match was not they key driver in a floor pickup mechanism for us, it certainly was a benefit we were planning on enjoying.

I have two main issues with the update. As Cory stated a few pages back, how could the GDC not have seen this coming? That is one I will never understand.

The other issue, and the more important one, is the mitigation steps taken to avoid the safety hazard. They did not need to eliminate all throwing of white frisbees to make a safe environment around the field. Adding penalties for discs thrown outside the field of play or limiting the number of discs able to be tossed all help the issue.

I'm definitely disappointed by the update. I definitely understand the reasoning behind it. I wish there was some better forethought on the GDC's part. I also hope they considered less drastic ways of altering the game before coming to this conclusion.

-Brando

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 

*I* don't think shortening the time would change much. I was only wondering if it had been considered.

The six disk count is further reduced by the number of 5-pt goal shots being attempted by robots. We're wondering what we have to do on an alliance to convince our partners we "deserve" custody of the colored disks for dumping. Maybe they should consider increasing the number of colored disks? IRI?

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 

We were one of the many teams with a floor pickup.

We as a team considered the possibility of the frisbees being thrown into the field at the end, but history tells me that the requirement for human players to throw frisbees, to have enough around is not going to be a big change. The most accurate of shooters last year still allowed a lot of balls on the field.

As for the highest levels of competition, I fully expect the highest levels of competition to have a 30 point climb and the ability to pickup from the floor. As impressive as many of the videos posted here have been, I think there's better out there.

On a side note - This has been a very hard year with trying to figure out strategy, the GDC has made so many changes since week 1, lacking clarification on bumpers, then have a cylinder rule change for climbing and its just been non-stop.

If there is anything I am disappointed in, it is that.

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 

Soooo.... humans throwing discs over the player station at a target 54 feet away is a greater safety hazard than a 28" tall robot launching a disk using a flywheel spinning at 5000+ rpm? Huh?

How does limiting the amount of discs thrown in the last 30 seconds make this game any safer?

It seems to me a velocity restriction similar to the the one in 2006 would have been more appropriate.

This is a game changer.

Karthik,

I disagree with your comparison to 2012 in regards to shot percentages.

This years target is much larger than last years. The projectiles retain their form better and are more stable during flight. While your initial projections may be close I think you will see a marked improvement in percentages as the season progresses.

Time will tell.

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 

I wouldn't be too concerned about not getting the colored discs-I don't know about others, but I'd be much more trusting in a robot to score the discs than a HP, especially in early qualification matches.

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 

If defense of the GDC. (As if they needed any) Since any hint of an upcoming game will spark all sorts of rumors... Details of the game cannot be discussed with anybody outside of the GDC prior to kick off. (I know there are a few exceptions, but work with me). If the game was more widely vetted flaws on hindsight are obvious would be caught. Unfortunately they do not have that luxury.

I am going to miss the hale of Frisbee at end game though ::safety::

Or if you think this is bad, be glad you are not a tax accountant. :ahh:

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 

Limiting velocity would be detrimental to the teams that dedicated their season to designing a full-court shooter.

Unfortunately, I don't think there is a velocity that the frisbees can be effectively launched at that is also safe for human impact. That being said, if a robot at competition repeatedly shoots frisbees out of the field in an unsafe manner, I assume the refs will issue a warning followed by a yellow card for additional aggregious infractions.

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 

My comment was in regards to the human players, not the robots.

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 

I appreciate the GDC making this change as I believe that it will increase the level of play. While human player shots are exciting, most people have seen a hammer throw sometime in their life. Successful climbs are not commonplace and probably would be more entertaining to watch. Some of those HP's throw hard! Disks slamming into those walls can't possibly make lining up a climb easy. I was not behind the driverstation at a week 0 event, but just from being on the sidelines I definitely diverted part of my attention to the flying disks. I don't think I could line up a climb as quickly with the disks slamming into the wall in front of my face.

Also, I really don't think that this detracts from the value of any 'bots that teams might have made. I hope 1671 will let me use theirs as an example (again, thank you for joining us in Galileo last year). Full court shooters seem fairly prevalent. Even the best will not be able to make them all. If I were a team with a full court shooter (that will probably dominate qualifying rounds, I think we can assume that this will be true for the first few weeks at least), the first team that I would want is one with a floor pick up. A second full court shooter probably wouldn't do me any good as I would already be preparing to shoot all of my disks. I would want the "clean up bot" if you will to gather all of my misses and score them so that our alliance is almost guaranteed to score all 45 of the alliances white disks. Also, a floor pickup would help get me the extra AUTO points that would give me the edge over another full court shooting alliance. I believe that a floor acquiring 'bot would probably be the top pick at most regionals, possibly second only to a 30 point climber with a dumper.

I don't believe that any team should feel slighted by this at all. If it comes down to it and you still want to get your finale cycles in, just score the 6 colored disks that your HP throws. Honestly, I see 2 cycles as being ambitious even for the best teams. 6 disks, relative to 8, is not a huge loss. Heck, if you can even score them in the pyramid goal, that gives you an advantage.

I understand why teams feel as if they were cheated by the GDC, but I really think that this will just add to the number of successful climbs and only slightly decrease the number of acquired disks during the endgame but will make floor pickups more valuable during the first 3/4 of the match.

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 

How exactly were you expecting a human player velocity restriction to be enforced? It was easy on robots in 2006 because you'd ramp a shooter up to full power and that was as fast as it'd shoot. I'm uncertain how you determine the maximum velocity a human can throw a frisbee. What if she's sandbagging during the test? How would you know? How would you enforce a limit on the velocity on the field?

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 

While I am disappointed in the implications of this decision for the competitive value of our team's robot, I understand why FIRST made this decision and I can't be upset at them for making a change that they feel is necessary for the safety of volunteers, teams, and spectators.

From a strategic stand point, it's difficult to quantify the impacts. It could be up to 24 points per match less that we can score, but the average will probably be somewhere between 3-9. It is hard to tell because we don't know exactly how those thrown frisbees translate into high goals.

It's easy to say that our strategy would have changed with the new rules from day 1, but I cannot really be sure that it would have. What I mean is that the difference between the rules on day 1 and day 45 has been marginalized for us. With these juxtaposed we see that climbing is more valuable and floor pickup is less valuable than it previously was. On day 3ish we decided there was a trade off based on our resources for really 2 types of robots climbing: and shooting or floor pickup and shooting. We can't say for sure if we would have changed our decision if the rules had been as they are now. In fact, I doubt we would have.

This just means we have even more work to do for continuous improvement of our robot, and it makes scouting, strategy, and alliance selections even more important. This does not change that I am thrilled about the robot we bagged for competition last night, and despite diminishing the competitive advantage of our robot I am still excited to see what we can do to make it even better.

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 

I was a human player at the Suffeild Scrimmage for team 177, and it was one of, if the best moment of my robotics experience. Over the course of a day I hit a total of 11 shots with my highest score in a single match being eight, (two three pointers and one two pointer) FIRST took all of the fun out of being a human player, while simultaneously ruining many teams overall strategy of relying on the discs of blizzard time. I am disappointed not only of the shortsightedness of FIRST (I mean what did you expect?) but also how poorly they responded to this problem. Instead of finding a rational solution that wouldn't change the overall flow and style of the game, the instead decided to cut out and ignore the problem all together. Great life lesson FIRST, if you don't want to deal with a problem just ignore it and everything will be better.

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 

Actually, ignoring it would have been FIRST doing nothing.

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 

I do agree with the general consensus of the lack of foresight that the GDC did not anticipate a 'blizzard' during endgame and have incorporated the proper amount of safety features.

Perhaps the GDC had enough faith in the Human Player's ability to be accurate with their shots considering that a disc has a more stable flight path than a ball.

In every sport, there is inherent risks involved with participating. This also extends itself to the referees and anyone else spectating close to the field of action.

Take a look at baseball umpires and hockey referees. In these sports where calls have to be made close to the action, they have to wear protective gear. Even though in these sports, it is one object (baseball, puck) that is used in play there are other factors they need to observe during the game (players interacting illegally with other players, etc.).

Safety has been the cornerstone to rules implemented within sports and especially within FIRST. I understand that negotiating between safety and an exciting game can be difficult.

Based on the new update to G35 it seems they trust six robots either firing discs or climbing a pyramid because the play of action is done in field (acceptable risk). But a bit contradictory that there is more concern over Human Players, perhaps because referees cannot E-stop them (I'm jesting, but I digress). Introducing Human Players to start throwing in discs can be a bit overwhelming but the discs that do matter are ultimately those thrown in field. If the concern was for individuals supporting the event inside the net, then perhaps provide those individuals with proper head gear (helmet with a face guard). If they want to wear extra padding under their clothes that is fine, but the refs attention should be on what is in field, and not distracted by an incoming plastic disc hitting them in the face.

Any referee anticipating not getting hit by a disc needs to know that it will happen and it is an inherent risk with this year's game with or without Human Players creating a 'blizzard'
_______________

Before Week 1 of competition, I propose HQ to implement protective head gear for referees, along with adequate placement of netting around the field and the GDC to retract the most recent update to G35 but know that it would be in vain. Prove me wrong.

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 

It would not be the first rule that was subjective.

I still feel the the robots are the bigger hazard. This ruling, IMO, changes the game more than it improves safety.

BTW the 2006 velocity restriction was not that easy to enforce during game play.

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 

Perhaps a better fix would have been to allow human players to throw discs around the side of the feeder stations instead of over the top. That would most likely reduce the number of discs leaving the field.

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 

Your right, this is more like them covering up the problem instead of ignoring it. Thanks for the clarification!

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 

Ya, kind of like instead of cleaning their clothes they just threw them away.

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 

hmm, i'm not so sure to call it "ignoring a problem' the problem in this case was the potential safety hazard of the crew and the equipment from flying discs. following this train of logic, ignoring the issue would've been to not have any crew or field equipment. Instead, they reduced the safety hazards (in this case the flying discs).

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 

You are right, that was miss worded on my part, it really is more like them covering up the problem instead of dealing with it would be a more accurate statement.

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 

Preface: I spent a large portion of the build season out of the country, so this is the least involved I have been in FRC in quite a few years.


One of the things that people here on Chief Delphi always ask for, is that FIRST should be more open and transparent with their decisions. And in regards to this, I would like to commend FIRST for this Team Update.

As outlined in the blog post, they did not anticipate the blizzard of discs thrown in the last thirty seconds; and as soon as they became aware of such occurring at Week 0 scrimmages, they quickly moved to improve the safety for everyone at an event and released a team update three days later. Their blog post very clearly laid out what they viewed as a problem and their course of actions to rectify it, and provided about as much transparency as is possible in a situation such as this.

While such a fast turnaround correction is to be commended, the timing of the update (hours before bag-n-tag deadline) likely contributed to the tsunami of pent-up, build-season stress and angst that was vented in this thread*.

Once everyone takes a few days to recuperate and regain lost sleep and look at this change from a big picture standpoint, I believe they will see that this does not drastically alter any portion of the game, and nor does it make any teams robots invalidated. IMHO, this game is probably the best game since 2004 to have all kinds of strategic checks-and-balances, which makes me very excited for the competition season.


* At this point in the season, I am sure that any change to the manual would cause outrage in the FRC community. They could release an update saying they were going to give every team free puppies and kittens, and many teams would vehemently complain this change was too late to budget dry kibbles into their budget.

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 

Soooo.... humans throwing discs over the player station at a target 54 feet away is a greater safety hazard than a 28" tall robot launching a disk using a flywheel spinning at 5000+ rpm? Huh?

AGREED!!
OR a possible 120 pound robot falling 60"???

Again, frisbee throwing change affects us and many other teams. This is my 4th year with FIRST and every year these updates/rule changes are very frustrating. Every year we feel that our strategy plan is challenged by these changes and we do get pass the "initial shock" of the changes.

I also want to say this program has changed our son and our students' lives to the better to what we have exposed them too.

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 

Surely you'd get more complaints about the already excessive numbers of dogs and cats in the country and the large numbers of unwanted pets languishing in animal shelters.

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 

Art,

I disagree. If discs being hurled across the field at high velocity is a hazard then the entire game is hazardous. I still do not see what the ACTUAL danger is here. Was someone injured? Close call?

What problem is this fixing?

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 

No, we would only complain if FIRST choice ran out of puppies :)

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 

Since when could puppies handle 60A of continuous current?

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 

I agree completely. When the first robot falls and hurts someone (hopefully never, but there is always the possibility) are they just going to get rid of climbing? I doubt it. They will find a SOLUTION to the problem. I see no reason why they cant do the same for the problem they face now.

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 

Let me start by saying that I feel awful for the human players who might feel that they are now unable to actively affect their teams’ success during the match, and cannot show off a skill set that they have been working on over the past 6 weeks.

But for some perspective, I’m 6’4” and played competitive ultimate in college for multiple years. I haven't spent any time throwing discs full field this year, but last night I tried putting 30 seconds on the clock to see how many backhands I could throw (rapid fire) that distance. I stopped after about 10 seconds and 12-15 discs because I only managed to get 2 to stay in the field. I entirely understand the GDC’s decision to limit the number of discs haphazardly attempting to enter the field in the last 30 seconds.

Now, I understand that some teams have been planning and practicing with specific throws that fit their floor pick-up strategy. I know that if I had done hammer throws my percentage would have increased, but I was operating under the assumption that teams would prefer to have the discs landing right side up, effectively voiding the effectiveness of that throw. My throws also may not have been from an optimum position behind the drivers station.

You have to look beyond the scope of how this affects one quarter of your teams match. You have, minimum, 8 days to rethink your strategy for competition. Take the time to sleep on it, look at the broader issue. Your HP may be able to hit his throw with some degree of accuracy, but what about the other 5 (over-zealous) students out their hucking discs as hard as they can and hoping they hit something.

I believe that the GDC expected some amount of discs to leave the field during the last 30 seconds, what I don't believe is that they should have expected the reckless abandon with which some teams would throw them. I especially don't believe that they expected students to be throwing the discs without even looking at the field. There is certainly no reason that any robot or human player should be launching discs above the drivers station wall either. Unless you have done almost nothing to control the accuracy of your shooter.

We have all been focused on our robots and our strategies for 6 weeks straight, now take some time to truly look at the game as a whole and decide for yourself if, over the full spectrum of teams competing, you think this change is so incredibly unfair of the GDC to make? We’re trying to draw people into our community by focusing on our actions and our attitude, there isn’t a whole lot going on in this thread that speaks positively about either of those attributes. All design is an iterative process; the GDC iterated the game design in order to fix a specific and unforeseen safety issue. Please move past this and start thinking about how you can iterate your match strategy and adapt to fit this change.

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 

I think it's just too hard for a referee or spectator at field level to keep track of all the different frisbees coming from the human players in all 4 corners of the field. This way, all the frisbees are being launched by robots on the field, so it's easier to see the where the shots are coming from.

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 

Mike, the successful shots from the Human Players were with a "hammer throw". It is different from a frisbee launched by a 5000 rpm spinning wheel in that it has a much higher translational velocity.

These hammer throws were traveling TWICE the distance of the field. Spectators on the ends of the field are already at a viewing disadvantage due to the goals this year, which really block the view of the gameplay. :(
They would not see it the disk coming at them and could easily suffer facial contusions. (the term that a lawyer would use when suing FIRST)
I was at the Suffield Shakedown and witnessed more than a few spectators sitting at the ends of the field "bonked" by a disk.

The public has not signed (nor electronically submitted :rolleyes: ) a Consent and Release form. While an injury and attendant lawsuit at a FIRST Robotics Competition would increase our media presence, it is an unacceptable risk.

Placing more netting at the ends of the field is not impossible, but more problematic given the less than two weeks until the season begins and the variety of venues at which the events are held.

A better solution may have been to allow the human players to throw around the feeder stations and disallowing the hammer throw. Spectators and human players would be more familiar with that style.
The GDC does not have the luxury of assessing this adjustment, so they erred on the side of safety. (As we all try to.)

Nonetheless, "what's done cannot be undone" ~Shakespeare.

Or can it? ~Mooretep

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 

Hmmm, maybe that was the real reason that they changed this rule.:ahh: ;)

I also Game Announce and was considering referring to Frisbees leaving the field as souvenirs.

Have you tried to order Frisbees from AndyMark lately?

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 

One idea might be to impose a penalty if a disc thrown by a human player leaves the field. It might encourage more care by the human players, and still give teams an opportunity to throw discs onto the field (not necessarily into the goals) in order to feed their robots.

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 

The main problem I and many others have with this is that this problem could have (should have!) been anticipated in the first place - probably the majority of the students that took a little time to think about the game realized that the last 30 seconds were going to be a blizzard of disks, and I really have no idea why the GDC never realized the same thing. And whether or not it "drastically" changes the game, it does make a substantial change to the rules too late for most teams to do anything about it, and it does affect some teams significantly more than others, which is the real problem.

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 

IMHO, the referees are already overtaxed in this game.

Just wait for that first 20 point technical and 30 points climb penalty as you leave your loading zone and hit a robot touching its pyramid.

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 

Rule change on the last build day can happen, and did this year. I fully support and understand the reason the GDC did this.
Safety does come first. This rule change is still a MAJOR shift in the game and the stragerty that teams made decissions about during the entire build season.
There should be another game change to re-balance the stragtery of this rule change, weather it be a reduction in climbing points (10, 20, 25),
changing 45 white disk to 40 with the extra ten discs starting on the floor, or some other means or a combination of these or other ideas.
A pently for errand disks will be nearly impossible for the refs to track as they will be wondering what HP or robot made that shot.
Another game change is needed so this rule change that has happen will have minimum impact for all of this years teams.

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 

A couple of thoughts from this thread. (no 3)

The issue seems to be the barrage of Frisbee coming from HPs not from overpowered robot shooters.

How many complaints would there be if you added that the robots couldn't shoot Frisbees?

They change the rules again to make it "more fair". Another 10 pages of complaints of how they ruined the game for some team.

I think I am suffering from post lock up day withdrawals. Wait, we have a practice bot to build. Never mind.

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 

I might as well weigh in...

I don't have a problem with a rule change for the sake of safety. I'm not even all that bothered that the GDC didn't anticipate the problem.

My problem is that their solution needlessly changed the strategic analysis of the game. I came into this thread late, but reading through the posts, it seems that most people don't disagree that a rule change was needed. They are just outraged at the unfairness of the actual change. It didn't need to be this way.

With just a little thought, a rule change could have been made which would have satisfied nearly everyone, because it would have left the strategy of the game intact (nearly). The best ones I've seen suggested are to either start with more disks on the floor, or to have referees toss out a handful of them at each side of the field (or the centerline) with 30 seconds left in the match.

The idea I like best would be:
"everybody wins"
-increase the number of disks on the centerline at the start from 2 to 8
-drop eight more on the centerline (four on each side) with 30 seconds left.
-ban all throwing of disks (not just white ones). If hard thrown disks are a safety hazard, it doesn't what color they are. This restores the stragic balance by making everyone happy, climber/dumpers and floor pickup robots.

"everybody looses"
As an alternative, only allow colored disks to count as scored if they are shot into the pyramid goals, not dumped. That would restore the strategic balance between floor pickup and climber/dumpers. Teams who just climb without dumping and those who only load from the feeder stations are unaffected, and floor pick-up'ers and dumpers both loose scoring potential which is roughly equal.

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 

I think that would be even a more absurd change than what was done...designing with the sole intention of climbing and dumping in the top(if that is what you are saying should be made illegal) is VERY different than floor loaders having less disks to pick up off the ground...taking that away from teams that designed SOLELY to climb and dump essentially devalues those robots EXTREMELY. Committing to designing a robot that SOLELY climbs and dumps is a much bigger commitment than designing one that picks up off the ground

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 

I couldn't agree more. People are upset about FIRST changing the rules at the last minute and having it affect their robots and strategy. This is awful, I agree. But why turn around and do the same to someone else?

Where's the GP in that?

I liked the idea of adding more discs on the field in the beginning though. That would certainly help a bit.

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 

The problem is teams develop their strategies around weighted value of each objective/action.

Game designers have to deal with this problem a lot. They listen to their player communities to see what kind of actions are over powered or under powered and make corresponding changes to keep the intent of the game. The GCD has changed a vital action and the intent of the game has changed (Hanging is more important than the Frisbees in the end game). Just like the game industry, the other corresponding actions should be nerfed or buffed.

If you are interested in game mechanics, take a look at this wikipedia article
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balance_(game_design)

Note: the GDC stands for Game Design Committee. I think it would be appropriate for them to at least know some of the theory behind game design and act upon it.

IMHO, the Frisbee doesn't decide how dangerous it is based on its color or if a robot or human threw it. A penalty should be assessed for errant shots.

Food for thought: Baseball is an inherently dangerous activity to watch and yet the games hasn't changed. Robots hurtling frisbees and climbing is inherently dangerous too!

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 

I like most of what you said but frankly sports have changed due to safety concerns and baseball is no exception. Example, google "Babe Ruth" and try to find a picture of him with a helmet on like today's players use.

The GDC made the right move, just 6 weeks too late.

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 

This is disappointing. It isn’t so much about the game as it is the inspiration. We are here to show students just how awesome it is to be a scientist or an engineer, and encourage them to pursue it as a career. A critical part of the process is clearly identifying the problem (pink spends the entire kick-off day analyzing the game), and then finding the best solution for that specific problem. Yes it is fun to win, but it doesn’t compare to the rush that you feel when you see the problem conquered – and know that it was your brain that helped conquer it. That feedback is wonderfully motivating, and makes it easy to wake up for work in the morning. This changes the problem and it kind of takes away some of the payoff.

Still, I understand that we have to be reasonably safe, and I’ll bet the GDC dislikes the change as much as we do. And in the grand scheme of things, this is probably one of those “FIRST world problem” memes :D. We will just man-up and do the best we can. Who knows, maybe we will rise to the occasion and play even better.

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 

To some extent, FIRST is simulated life. In life, sometimes the rules change, even when you don't want them to and were told they wouldn't.

Adapt, survive, get over it. I think they made a good call, here, and can't be too judgmental about their not foreseeing the problem.

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 

I know exactly what you mean about how great it feels to solve a tough problem, that's why I'm addicted to this junk. However, when you teach about engineering it's good to also teach about what engineers have to deal with on a regular basis, including how fickle most customers can be. If you're working on a project and your project manager hasn't given you a major design change in the past couple weeks, something is up and you should be on your toes. This counts double towards the end of a project, if you give a customer time to think it over, they'll change their mind or something will "come up" and you have to work it out. Fast.

In this case, one could consider FIRST to be your customer, and they tell you what they want, and you give them exactly that and not something else. You meet the requirements or you lose the "contract" (and probably your job).

Maybe, for an example, a hypothetical deepwater drilling rig in the gulf explodes and causes a massive, highly publicized oil spill. New safety standards incoming, do all of your products hold up to this new scrutiny? Maybe you can't drill where you wanted to anymore, now what? This is the same thing, simply on a less... explosive... scale.

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 

I'm sorry but I have to strongly disagree. The addressed the problem and fixed it. Yes it might not be a solution that worked for everyone, but Safety is a number one concern above everything we do in FRC. And they addressed the issue. FIRST did what they had to do. They're setting a good example.

I know this is upsetting but if you look at all the logistics FIRST has to deal with, this is the clear only choice they had.

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 

Thank you for clearing up what the actual problem is. I was not aware that teams were "hammer throwing" discs. I can see how this could become hazardous. However, it seems to me that the ruling is equivalent to using a shotgun to swat a fly.

As you stated, why not just disallow humans from hammer throwing? This would have much less impact on game play.

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 

Yep. That's why I called it the "everybody loses" option.

Does anyone else have suggestions for "everybody wins" options? Maybe if we develop a good proposal, it could be adopted...

I like adding a few more disks at the beginning because it encourages teams to develop more creative autonomous routines. Adding them at the end undoes some of the inbalance that results from prohibiting thrown disks, but in a safe way.

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 

Seconded. Our human players had to be careful not to get brained by frisbees.

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 

I would suspect at the regional level in 2012 the scoring percentage was significantly lower than 66%, which is why Karthik used the Championship percentage. I must say I am a big fan of these game pieces though, there are lots of examples of open loop launchers with repeated trajectories, and I imagine the closed loop ones are probably even better.

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 

In the whole banning of the hammer throw people are mentioning, I feel like that would hurt the cause more than it would help it. I do not see any of our human players throw discs outside of our arena while using the hammer throw, but when using a normal frisbee throw, due to the steep angle you have to throw the frisbee, they fly out at a 50% rate. The toss might be harder, but in these circumstances, they seem to be more controlled.

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 

I fully support FIRST's decision behind changing the rules on this one as it mitigates some serious safety concerns. However, I think a better solution would have been to ban hammer throws and/or assess a FOUL for a disk leaving the field from a HP.

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 

I do think the GDC should find some way to place a fair estimated percentage of the HP disks on the field in the last 30 seconds. Placing these disks at center field (or at both ends) in the last 30 seconds would more closely simulate the original game design.

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 

Our HP jumps up and throws the discs "normal" over the player station. He was quite good. Now he's talking about just wearing our mascot outfit as he feels the HP has become rather useless now.

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 

I've been watching this thread for a while now, and I completely understand the frustration - especially for all those teams just coming off of soooo many sleepless nights!!

Several good points have been made already. Karthik's was the earliest one that made a ton of sense, and Pete's more recently echoed my thoughts.

But here is another thought... many have been mentioning banning hammer throws, or only allowing a certain number of white disks to be thrown, or several other limitations that aren't quite as restrictive as the "only colored disks" ruling. The problem with this is that it places a lot more work on the referees... what happens if they miss "how" the frisbee was thrown because they were trying to watch a robot climb?, who is going to count how many white disks a human throws? I think this would just lead to more referee errors, and extend the problems.

Netting over the goals - this is a possibility, but the structures are already really really tall, and I think it would be hard to add onto the structures in such a way that it worked for all venues. Sure many of the Regionals have lights and everything rigged, but you don't want to hang nets that will be hammered by frisbees on expensive lighting. Plus District events (and offseasons) won't have anywhere near the same ability to rig. Making the structures taller with nets seems even more dangerous. I helped set up the home made field for the Rochester Rally and while it was a lot more stable than we would have expected, putting up really tall nets would have been tough.

For teams that are upset about the last 30 seconds, I'm really surprised that so many think that will be such a disadvantage. In reading strategies early on, it seemed like the clear advantage to floor collectors was in autonomous. I would be surprised to see more than a handful of robots that can get more than one cycle in the last 25 seconds of play (presumably it would take at least 5 seconds for 4 human thrown frisbees to be on the floor - and that assumes they all land within easy pickup range).

For the human players that put in a ton of practice... I do feel a bit bad for them, but I think they still have potential to win games that are close. In watching the preships, it seemed like it was possible that humans would score a lot more points than robots... and that doesn't really make this a robotics competition - it makes it a human competition with a robot component. I think the humans are just going to have to work harder at increasing their accuracy... before you could get away with mere chance... 2/20 was still two scored... now each disk has to really really count. Its a little more like last year where when you weren't bombarded by a high scorer, you had a limited number of balls in endgame, so each had to count. We still saw some amazing shots.

And for anyone wondering what the netting looks like, there may be more recent photos from any changes from Suffield or NH, but at Kickoff they looked like this. They are right up next to the field.

In all - I get this change. At the Rally, there were points where we just had to tell the humans to stop throwing because it was getting dangerous to walk anywhere in the gym. And while I get the frustration, as others have said, I don't think its as detrimental to robot designs as many are making it out to be. In fact I'd wager that if we played an offseason half with and half without the change, we'd end up with nearly exactly the same scores robot-wise. As with every year, I think everyone is overestimating their ability to score as they haven't played against defense or with 6 robots on the field or with frisbees littering the field.

Hopefully everyone takes a breather, gets some sleep, and figures out how to play an amazing game!

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 

I was at a Week Zero event. Not only was this a very serious safety issue, but dozens of disks hitting the driver stations caused so much chaos that most drivers weren’t able to see/focus enough to score during the last thirty seconds anyway. In my opinion this rule change will actually greatly help teams during the final thirty seconds. With regards to "epic" human player shots, I only saw a handful of shots go in during the entire day. It's a lot harder than you think. Just my two cents.

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 

First, let me state, we are not using floor pickup as a strategy, we are strictly feeding station loader.

I am not sure how this is a huge blow to floor pickup strategy. Yes, it changes the strategy and the amount of time to score, but I fail to see that this changes everything as that seems to be the theme for a floor strategy.

The rule states

"DISCS may be fed onto the FIELD only under the following circumstances:

A. during TELEOP through the FEEDER SLOTS for any DISCS and

B. during the last thirty (30) seconds of TELEOP over the FEEDER STATIONS for Red and Blue DISCS."

Though it will be a little bit more tricky to pick up as many times to shoot, frisbees can still get on the floor through the feeder station and then they can be picked them up from the floor. You can only hold four at a time anyway, so it is not like you can drive around looking to pick up more than that. Those of you picking up from the floor, you will be able to load much faster over us that are loading from the feeder station (at least ours). We have to slow down, make a turn, line up, load and then go. It will take us longer to get four in, from what videos I have watched.

Now part of the strategy has changed slightly that you have to fend off another team trying to take your frisbees being dropped by your HP but once they get four they have to move on. For a true rookie team, by true rookie team I mean having no one on the team that has ever done this, I see this as helping us be more competitive. Maybe it is a little naive to simplify this issue, but I for one want to be able to watch a match with out also looking for flying discs coming at me.

I am open to hear what I am missing here, since I am newbie and could only help us understand better game strategies in the future. I have been around enough complex issues that there is always a way to over come a set back like this and will be looking forward to the creative ways those of you that have been doing this will over come this one!

My views don't necessarily reflect that of our team. -Cyle (Asst. Coach for BerryBotics)

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 

Safety issue - completely understandable and I agree 100% with GDC. But we should have had this change made atleast 2-3 days prior to bagging so we could have made appropriate changes. Week 0 events were mostly on saturdays. This update should have came out on saturday night to warn teams like us who is planning on floor loading. Yes yes I get the point that there will be a lot of disks laying around but it still doesnt satisfy our strategy with our human player to be able to throw the frisbee at the same spot everytime.

On a completely different note, FIRST should allow teams to unbag their robot for a 8 hour period to make appropriate changes. After all we made a robot according to the rules GDC gave us. And now GDC has changed the rules on us.

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 

The problem is with frisbees being thrown the floor feeders wouldn't have had to drive across the field to get to the feeder station to pick up discs.

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 

Late rule changes (or spec changes) in the name of safety and user experience, pre-release, are to be expected. This is just a taste of real-world engineering.

Keep calm and robot on.

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 

I was up late working on a robot Tuesday, and yesterday we had no internet at our house. So I missed all this fun. Oh well.

I got beaned in the nose by a human-thrown DISC on kickoff day. I like this rule change.

And....I can't see any way that the rule change affects how our robot plays the game.

I also wonder how those teams that anticipated the blizzard problem, could not foresee the GDC's solution, or at least have notified the GDC that there was the potential for a serious safety issue.

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 

Is there any proof of the value of a retrieving system in the last 30 seconds? Like a video simulating the conditions and performance.

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 

Bad timing? Yes. Teams have been planning on this and it's a little (or a lot) disappointing to have things changed so late in the game.

Necessary safety solution? Very yes. I'd much rather not see the 'blizzard' if it means my Grandmother won't be risking a black eye while she's watching the elimination rounds.

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 

Part of what this analysis is missing is a marginalized wholistic game strategy perspective. What I mean by this is that if your goal is to maximize your robots scoring potential, you should always look to what will add more additional points to your score when analyzing different parts of the game. For example, with the old rules you may figure the following scoring during the end game:

No floor pick up, spend last 30 seconds or more climbing for 30:
30 points
(possibility of additional 20 pts here too)
30-50 points total

Floor pickup with 10 point hang in last 30 seconds (field littered with discs):
12-24 points from frisbees
10 points from hang
22-34 points total

When deciding that trade off, we said the second option gave us an advantage in autonomous, didn't hurt us much in the end game, opened up a variety of wonderful alliance strategies for any alliance we're a part of, and significantly simplified the design of our robot. We designed our robot such that it shoots and hangs from the same location on the field, so it's not even about collecting two rounds then hanging, it's really just collecting two rounds of discs and the hanging will happen because we won't need to go anywhere.

I personally believe that good strategy and general game play will result in a field with lots of discs anyway, so I don't think it's that big of a deal. However, there will still be some matches where the rate of our robots scoring in the end game is limited by the number of discs on the field, whereas by the old rules this wouldn't have been the case ever.

The frustration comes out of making a significant design trade off decision based on the old rules, and now having them changed in a manner that makes the decision less of an advantage, or possibly even a greater disadvantage, we will never know.

I understand FIRST's decision and while I think there may have been better solutions to explore (no upside down throws allowed???, hammer throws are still allowed so as far as I'm concerned the safety hazard is not mitigated), it is for the best to have a safer environment at the events. All we can do as teams is try to do the very best we can to work within the new rule, take it in stride, and work toward continuous improvement of our robots and strategies to be the best we can within these new parameters. Anything less would not be gracious professionalism.

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 

Perhaps we didn't see the blizzard "problem" because we were anticipating using it to our advantage. We correctly predicted game play and built a robot to take advantage of it only to have this advantage taken away at the end of build.

Pretty shady move on the part of the GDC, although after so many years in this program it seems this is to be expected.

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 

No, you ALMOST correctly predicted game play. Some teams CORRECTLY predicted game play in that the frisbee free-for-all at the end of the game would be drastically modified or removed during the build season updates and built their robot accordingly.

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 

In real life, if someone asks you to build a boat and then, when you deliver it, they say, "There's actually no water here. We want a plane instead," your performance isn't judged on the effectiveness of your boat as an airplane.

In this case, we are in no position to make material changes to our product in response to the shifting requirements and we will be judged, in terms of our performance on the field, based on the outdated result.

Apples and oranges, in my opinion.

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 

You're correct, all of the teams who chose to forgo the added engineering challenge of designing an effective floor pickup correctly predicted the GDC making yet another late season game change.

In the future I will encourage my team to always choose the simpler path so we hopefully won't be effected by these last minute game changers. Lesson learned.

In the meantime I would love access to the crystal ball granting you the insight into these changes.

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 

I undoubtedly tip my cap to the teams who built their robots KNOWING the game would be drastically modified the day of bagging....

-Brando

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 

I'm glad, just as a referee. Had to dive out of the way of some frisbees during a Frisbee blizzard in a scrimmage match.

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 

You might be better served by an "Uncertain 7-Cube". See the second video in that link.

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 

The sarcasm is strong in this one. (Please don't stop building complex and awesome robots.)

I'm pretty sure the GDC was able to predict the blizzard. You just have to go back to the past 2 years and see how a flurry of game pieces were always being hurled. However, I don't think they estimated the amount of force that a desperate human player imparts on the frisbee when trying to score it. The amount of force and the nature of the disc itself was a major safety hazard

Right move? I don't know. While our robot's floor pickup was going to be only used for autonomous and missed shots, I do feel somewhat wronged by the GDC for developing a floor pickup. I feel like instead of outright limiting the number of discs thrown, the GDC could've spent at least another day figuring out another way to make the game more safe, but not rule out many strategies.

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 

Therein lies the problem. FIRST has had over a year to develop this game. Moreso than they have in the past, they have made efforts to fully test the gameplay to the best of their abilities. Many, many teams were able to correctly predict that there would be a hailstorm of frisbees at the end, and assumed that the bright folks at FIRST would also have anticipated that and had tested it well enough prior to kickoff that the safety features (nets, high walls at either end of the field) to mitigate the risk.

In short, we put our faith that if we were able to easily anticipate the hailstorm, FIRST did to and had chosen to leave it in the rules because their field design adequate to provide a safe environment. There is an inherent expectation by the teams that the gameplay allowed in the rules will be safe. It is the teams' responsibility to analyze the rules and determine the appropriate strategy, it is NOT the teams' responsibility to determine if parts of the rules present an unsafe situation and anticipate a GDC rules change.

To all the teams who are saying "Why didn't you anticipate they would change the rules and plan accordingly?", it's just not that simple. The ONLY strategy basis teams should have to go off of are the rules as they are written. What if a team designed their robot anticipating this rule change, and it didn't get changed? Would they then complain about an unfair disadvantage because they think it's unsafe but the GDC doesn't? If a team anticipates it would be a safety issue, why didn't they make an attempt to inform the GDC of this during build season? I'm guessing the answer is because they, like everyone else, assumed the GDC was aware of the potential hazard and the lack of any changes meant that the GDC was confident in the safety of the field and gameplay.

That being said, I don't think it's the hail of frisbees that caused this ruling from the GDC, but rather the number of frisbees that left the field entirely during this period and sailed off into the stands/scoring table/etc. They pose a hazard for spectators, field personnel and judges, as well as being a field reset issue. As unfortunate as it is that it took week 0 events for this to become apparent, that's what happened, they made the change because they had to, and we will all deal with it. I agree with Karthik and others, I do not think it will be as big of an issue as most people are making it out to be.

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 

Doesn't mean you can't have the best of both worlds...

I totally agree though. FIRST doesn't have anything to lose in making these changes except their credibility*, and based on the reaction here it looks like they had already lost that in the eyes of many old timers.

*This is regardless of whether it was a necessary change or not (and it sounds like it probably was). It just means that participants will not trust FIRST in the future to keep to their original specifications, which breeds ill-will in any organization.

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 

My $.02?

I am 100% certain floor pick up will be a valuable asset.
I can absolutely guarantee that there are going to be missed shots on the floor. Not every robot is capable of 100% accuracy.

That said, the number of disks on the floor will diminish as you progress through eliminations. Regardless, disks will still be on the floor.

Consider the alliance that has a robot parked in the loading station to simply forward disks to the brutally accurate shooting robot that feeds from the floor.

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 

I am not quite as old timer as some of the other mentors and teams here but I can't remember a year where FIRST didn't make some controversial change after kick off. Sometimes it affected us, sometimes it didn't.

One thing we did take away from the years we have been here is that like a customer at a job, FIRST is just as likely to introduce scope creep and make your wonderful solution obsolete.

I feel for those that have had their strategy effected. We always discuss in our strategy meetings what are possible gotcha's for the year and as my fellow mentor said in a more inflammatory way, we did see the frisbee blizzard as a possible gotcha. Heck, we went into our current strategy with the foreknowledge that FIRST can change our scoring later, but built the best bot we could with the resources and commitment we have. I am sure the floor loaders will still find frisbees to play with.

Participating in this game reminds me of the rocket science I used to do; it has extremely high highs, but also extremely low lows. Don't lose heart and the high from overcoming an incredible challenge will help you forget the disappointments. Have fun at the competitions and enjoy the incredible machine you have spent 6 weeks building. :-)

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 

Your right some human players were just too good. And when we are talking about it we might as well just get rid of some teams shooters they are obviously just too good and provide an unfair advantage to them. And the teams that can climb to 30 points? UNFAIR! get rid of them

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 

After a couple days ruminating on this, I think we have to give the GDC and other powers-that-be some slack.

I don't think they failed to anticipate a flurry of discs in the last 30 seconds.

Rather, I think they failed to anticipate how incredibly bad the feeders would be at throwing the discs and keeping them on the field. :eek:

There must not have been the same problem with regard to robots shooting discs. Had there been, they would have been able to modify a rule and make it a foul any time a disc went over the net or alliance wall.

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 

I did say *simulated* life. :)

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 

My $0.02:

I don't have time to read through all the comments. If I repeat what someone else has already said, my bad.

Several people have raised that the GDC should have seen this coming. I agree - partly for reasons already mentioned (30 seconds to throw discs and students actually throw them :rolleyes: and bad aim (let's be honest -many of us are athletes, but not as high of a proportion as on, say the ultimate Frisbee team)) - but partly for another reason.

3081 is a young team. However, even the rookies had some idea that the discs would be flying everywhere. This being my second year, I witnessed basketballs flying everywhere and hitting everything - thank heavens they were made of foam. One kid remarked shortly after the reveal, "This is sure going to make the endgame interesting if everyone's still throwing things and those things are much harder."

My point: We throw things. We throw things badly. If it hurts when these things hit us in gym class, we shouldn't have dozens of these things flying around in a very short frame of time.

Am I disappointed? Well, not really by the rule change, but in the GDC's failure to recognize this beforehand. I would have preferred some arbitrary last-minute bumper rule over this. Perhaps the GDC should make safety a priority BEFORE bag and tag day. ::ouch:: At least they did it before week 2, and at least they did it at some point. I would rather be angry about this rule change than angry about an injured teammate or volunteer.

That was longer than I expected. Sorry :o

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 

That is really annoying I was looking forward to the frisbee throwing as the human player :(. But on another note, are there any videos of these matches? A 'blizzard' of frisbees sounds hilarious.

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 

Sorry. Searched for a video of the one 3081 went to and only found a video of the Harlem Shake that happened there. :mad:

As a practice driver for a few matches, it was scary. I remember saying, "Someone's gonna get hurt." Hopefully with the rule change, no one will (other than the occasional metal splinter here and there; for some reason we can never seem to stop those).

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 

There were lots of discs on the floor prior to the blizzard in each case. If I were a referee in that situation, would be watching out for discs instead of watching the game. Good rule, unfortunate timing IMHO.

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 

To offset the lack of white frisbee's, for the floor picker uppers, maybe we can limit the 30 point climbers to only 2 frisbees carried to dump in the 5 point goal? :rolleyes:

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 

All I can say is WOW! I see a lot of controversy for & against the rule change. Those who read CD all the time have seen my responses. I feel for the HPers who have practiced for the past 6 weeks. GDC can only guess the ferocity of players because when practicing, the will to win is not the same as the real thing. I also see very unprofessional responses. Remember Gracious Professionalism. The real world always springs the unexpected upon us. Instead of complaining, brainstorming is the next best thing.
I was Field Supervisor at Suffield, as well field setup. We did raise the netting another 12" to a total of 14'. It still didn't address the issue of the Frisbees flying over the driver stations & past the corners on either side. The DJ did get hit on the head with a Frisbee and he was behind the netting. You can't assume that everybody will be watching Frisbees all the time. I saw some real powerhouse throws. Enough to shake the driver's station walls. I loved to see that last 30 seconds, the frenzied throwing, the energy. But at what expense.
Let's move forward. Be professional.

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 

OK before I make this comment, let me just say that Safety is Paramount.
If the GDC can't guarantee event safety, then they have to act. I get that and support that.

Warning:
Please don't hit me with a hammer throw for my next opinion. :)
What Bothers me about the decision is that there seems to be no attempt to keep the "Spirit of the Game Design" (i.e. minimize the impact of the decision on teams that designed for the blizzard). There might be a variety of solutions, but I think they should at least place extra disks on the field in the last 30 seconds. What the right number would be, I will leave up to those more brilliant than myself.
The reality is that anything done at this point would be an approximation. I just wish the GDC would try to create that approximation.

OK I will duck now. :ahh:

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 

I expect that the GDC, FRC engineering and FRC logistics all had roles to play in making this decision. After all, changing the game was not the only way to achieve an acceptable degree of safety: there were clearly alternatives that would have left the game intact, the most obvious one being more netting to protect spectators and hockey helmets for the field staff. But I suspect the logistics and engineering staff would have had something to say about the cost and schedule constraints related to the implementation of those changes.

In assessing the costs and benefits, there's no a priori reason why changing the game couldn't be the least-bad of several onerous resolutions. So as long as the GDC gave due consideration to the alternatives, I don't fault them for it, because I understand their responsibilities.

That doesn't mean I have to like it.


As for why I don't have to like it, consider that FIRST is not supposed to be a perfect simulation of real life—as sufficient demonstration of that, would we accept it if all our conventions about gracious professionalism were substantially diluted? That would be like real life. FIRST's real and perceived leaders write volumes of documentation every year, give many speeches, set many examples, and nowhere do they state or even clearly imply that "this is real life, with all its hazards".

FRC is a sandbox where many of the constraints of real life are lifted or simplified. One of the most valuable of those simplifications is a self-contained rule set that is freshly imposed at kickoff every year, so that precedent—notoriously hard to keep straight—is marginalized. Cheating is disincentivized by fostering a sense of "co-opertition" that dampens many of the less desirable dynamics of a high school sporting event. And as long as FRC sticks to the plan, it's a very good thing, because everyone can focus on the multitude of intentional challenges the games bring, without worrying about the full range of perils the world has to offer. Skills are developed that way, even if it means they'll need to be honed a little to be useful in the real world.

But every time FIRST springs a big change on the teams after kickoff, the wheels come off. We're forced to worry about the effects of the change—which often disproportionately affect a subset of teams. We question FIRST's motivations and its competence, and as was suggested above, we consider whether we should be accounting for the GDC's unwelcome surprises in our design processes.

And the truth is, we do have to account for that kind of stuff. Not because FIRST tells us to, but because they usually inadvertently give us a reason to do so. Human error is a real-world constraint that they never express or explain, but which inevitably finds its way into the competition. That's a lesson about how the world works, but simultaneously an indictment of FIRST. Whether or not that real-world lesson has any place in FRC, it would be preferable to teach it without introducing systematic inequity, and without the GDC making itself look silly.

Maybe this is the more important lesson: even though the GDC weighed the options and made their choice, there was no 100% right decision available to be made. Next time, hopefully the GDC avoids getting backed into that particular corner, and we can concentrate more on the game, and less on the meta-game.

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 

If there was a safe way for field personnel to introduce the disks during the last 30 seconds I would agree with you, Jared. I am willing to bet many teams opting for a quick ground pick up figured that they could get off two loads of disks and do a quick 10 pt hang in the final 30 seconds (with a field littered with human disks)...34 pts to help neutralize a climber. 8-10 disks flung on to the field might do the trick. Then again, week one may just reveal there is still an abundance of disks on the floor anyways and this adjustment would be a moot point, right? We are counting on your team to show the way...;)

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 

I was on the side of a field while human players were practicing throws, only one throw at a time. I was at the opposite feeder station (off the field) looking at our robot.

It was very stressful and I was nervous about being hit. Frisbees come will come in fast and numerous with 6 people throwing. If referees paid attention to incoming discs and missed a call on the field, everyone would be up in arms about that.

FIRST is putting safety first. Yes, they moved your cheese without telling you. It's time to let this one go.

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 

Mike-
Reading through these comments, a majority of them contain positive remarks regarding the push for a safer environment. Very few of them are calling into question the creation of a safer arena.

What many of us are focused on, is how can we create a safer arena environment, yet still maintain the same type of gameplay that would play out under the original rules. Many people have proposed some good ideas including placing discs on the floor at some point in the match (30 secs remaining), while others have proposed harsher penalties for a frisbee leaving the playing field when tossed by a human player.

I think these types of discussions are more than appropriate, and a good exercise for game design and how to avoid these types of changes in the future.

-Brando

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 

I think there will be plenty of disks on the ground from missed shots. They will almost all be right-side up however. If humans could throw in the last 30 seconds the ground pick-up teams would encounter a lot more discs that are upside down. The rule change seems to have the biggest affect on those who invested resources into reorienting the disks, or especially those who specialized in the upside down disc. So, if you throw some in at the last minute (and I'd rather we didn't) then throwing them in upside down would make the most sense.

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 

If you were wrong though, as many, many game predictions made during kickoff are, there are no consequences and nobody makes a big fuss. Its easy to look back when your prediction is confirmed and say how clear it was right from the start that this was going to happen, but I'm very surprised at the number of people claiming they knew with absolute certainty how a big part of this game would play out.