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-   -   Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=113981)

cgmv123 19-02-2013 18:20

Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 
Quote:

Human Actions
G35


The most recent FRC Blog describes the observations and lessons learned about ULTIMATE ASCENT game play during the two Week 0 scrimmages attended by FRC staff. One observation in particular is the basis for an edit, shown below, to Rule [G35].

During the creation and refinement of ULTIMATE ASCENT, we anticipated DISCS to occasionally and accidently be shot off the FIELD by ROBOTS and FEEDERS. However, we underestimated the intensity and degree to which FEEDERS would launch DISCS at the opposite ends of the FIELD. The aggressive throws plus the propensity for DISCS to leave the FIELD at high velocity caused a more distracting, and more notably hazardous, environment than anticipated for participants and equipment in and around the ARENA.

We strongly resist any significant rule changes after games are released, but this change is required to improve the safety for all FRC event participants. After discussing several options, we believe this particular change is the most effective and efficient way to mitigate risks. We apologize for our error and for having to make this game modification.


DISCS may be fed onto the FIELD only under the following circumstances:

A. during TELEOP through the FEEDER SLOTS for any DISCS and

B. during the last thirty (30) seconds of TELEOP over the FEEDER STATIONS for Red and Blue DISCS.

Violation: FOUL

root
Game Manual


As a reminder to Teams, a required Driver Station update was released on February 5. All Teams must update their Driver Station software to at least version 1.29.13.00.

Teams should not touch the GOALS at any point as this could impact the weight sensors used to score DISCS. Teams will be reminded of this during the Drivers’ Meeting, and the GOALS will be labeled with “Do not touch” stickers.
and

Quote:

On Saturday, February 16th, FRC staff supported two ‘Week 0’ scrimmages, one in Connecticut and one in New Hampshire. These events were run with official fields and electronics that will be put on the road during competition season. FRC supports these events so we can test out our systems and see how the game plays with real FRC Teams. We carefully review what we see at these events, and work to improve our systems, and if necessary, the game, in preparation for competition.

Here’s what we learned about which we thought you’d like to hear:
  • Field reset can be fairly quick, although it will require more coordination than in past years. Provided there’s a plan and organization about collecting and staging discs, it’s pretty manageable. Practice day will be a huge help in getting everyone on the same page and running smoothly.
  • The belay system is effective at helping remove robots from the pyramids, but it will require much communication and collaboration between the team and the field staff to make sure it’s done safely and effectively (thanks to Team 811 for giving us several opportunities to try this out!).
  • To mitigate cost and complexity and maximize access for testing and troubleshooting, the goals are designed to be fairly open. Because the FMS calculates the score based on the weight of the discs in the goals, it’s important that teams not touch any of the goals (over their head or the low goal). We’ll make sure this reminder is covered in the Drivers’ Meetings and we’ll be labeling the goals with “Do Not Touch” stickers.
  • The netting on the sides of the field was helpful, but we still had significant issues with discs leaving the field during the match. During the last 30 seconds, when feeders are allowed to enter discs onto the field over the feeder stations, discs were going everywhere. This period was described on the forums as a ‘blizzard’ and it ‘raining’ discs. These are accurate characterizations. There are several issues with this, the most significant being safety. While discs thrown by robots for the most part stayed within the confines of the field, many discs thrown by the feeders did not. This is understandable – feeders are attempting a difficult shot at an awkward angle. This makes it exciting when a disc goes in a goal, but also increases the chance that a disc will leave the playing field and potentially strike someone. We noticed that during the last 30 seconds of the match, many folks closest to the field had their heads up to make sure they weren’t going to be hit by an errant disc, rather than enjoying the action on the field.

This last bullet is particularly compelling and, unfortunately, was serious enough that we felt the need to modify the game to rectify the situation (the official rule change is in today’s Team Update). As we hope we conveyed in the Team Update, we don’t take significant rules changes lightly as we know that teams carefully study the rules and invest hours or even days coming up with the best strategy they can within the framework of those rules.

We know that the robots we saw at these events were still works in progress, as teams still had three days before they needed to bag up. Even so, we were impressed with and excited by what we saw and can’t wait to see more. We’re so grateful to the event planning committees and the teams themselves for giving this opportunity to do a couple of dress rehearsals. We hope it was a fun and valuable experience for all participants.

Stop Build Day

In case you lost track of time, today is Stop Build Day! Robots must be bagged up by the stroke of midnight – your local time - tonight (when today, of course, turns in to tomorrow).



I’ll blog again soon.

Frank
Major change. One that will probably take away from the game, but I understand why they did it.

dodar 19-02-2013 18:23

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 
So, normal discs cannot be thrown at all?

Andrew Lawrence 19-02-2013 18:23

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by dodar (Post 1236566)
So, normal discs cannot be thrown at all?

That's what I get from it.

dodar 19-02-2013 18:25

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew Lawrence (Post 1236567)
That's what I get from it.

This will greatly lessen the end game. Imagine if all those epic endgame shots hadnt happened last year; some of those moments were more amazing than some by the robots.

Oh, and this is my 1,592nd post!!! :D
Go Bionic Tigers!

cgmv123 19-02-2013 18:25

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by dodar (Post 1236566)
So, normal discs cannot be thrown at all?

That appears to be the case.

Chris is me 19-02-2013 18:25

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 
Well, I guess I'm glad we didn't go with floor loading after all.

Sucks for any teams who designed around scoring a volley of frisbees in the end game. I'm never a fan of mid season rule changes - I'd rather they have made better netting, but at least it doesn't affect my team too much.

Grim Tuesday 19-02-2013 18:26

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 
Let the jimmies rustle.


This is the easily the most game changing change I have ever seen the GDC make late in the season. While I see the safety issue, it is absolutely irresponsible for them not to have noticed this earlier. While we didn't choose to use floor pickup, many teams made design decisions based on the throwing and pickup of white discs in this time period.

Kevin Sevcik 19-02-2013 18:26

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 
Well THAT's a game changer if I've ever seen one. So long frisbee blizzard and ultimate frisbee human players. Definitely a blow to ground-pickup robots everywhere. On the plus side, late game maneuverability just got a lot easier.

dodar 19-02-2013 18:27

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris is me (Post 1236570)
Well, I guess I'm glad we didn't go with floor loading after all.

Sucks for any teams who designed around scoring a volley of frisbees in the end game.

I guess the only thing those robots can pray for is that robots just drop artillery fire to their goal side so they can then pick up those. Just have teammates wildly fire shots just to get frisbees into play and down range.

IndySam 19-02-2013 18:27

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 
uhhhh, wow.

Real glad we sacrificed climbing for floor loading. Thanks GDC.

PayneTrain 19-02-2013 18:34

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 
I really don't know hot to put this in perspective. I don't feel good about it.

EDIT with perspective: To all ground loaders, don't dismay. There were a ton of frisbees on the ground before endgame at Week Zero events.
And besides, it's not like both alliances aren't going to have to deal with the rule change.

AllenGregoryIV 19-02-2013 18:35

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 
This is devastating. Our strategy was that fast floor pickup could even out not having a 30 point hang. This completely removes that idea. I understand safety concerns but why did my students just spend 6 weeks perfecting floor pickup and being able to drive around on a lot of discs. I'm just glad there seems to be a lot of full court shooters, that can replace the humans throwing.

More than anything this just killed team moral.

dodar 19-02-2013 18:37

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AllenGregoryIV (Post 1236579)
This is devastating. Our strategy was that fast floor pickup could even out not having a 30 point hang. This completely removes that idea. I understand safety concerns but why did my students just spend 6 weeks perfecting floor pickup and being able to drive around on a lot of discs. I'm just glad there seems to be a lot of full court shooters, that can replace the humans throwing.

But you dont know the amount per regional. It could be 2 at one and 25 at another; or you could have 10 at a regional but all shoot 80% plus. I do feel bad for all the teams that highly focused on their ground game.

Radical Pi 19-02-2013 18:38

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 
Quote:

B. during the last thirty (30) seconds of TELEOP over the FEEDER STATIONS for Red and Blue DISCS.
I don't see anything that prevents the humans from throwing the colored discs into the 3 point goal. New prediction: there will be more colored discs scored in the 3 point goal than in the pyramid goal.

BJC 19-02-2013 18:39

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 
This is very... irritating.

What's done is done though, no amount of complaining will change it back. Keep that in mind when posting in this thread.

Regards, Bryan

dodar 19-02-2013 18:40

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Radical Pi (Post 1236581)
I don't see anything that prevents the humans from throwing the colored discs into the 3 point goal. New prediction: there will be more colored discs scored in the 3 point goal than in the pyramid goal.

I dont see that happening unless a station runs dry of white discs. Those color discs will be a coveted commodity; unless you dont have a pyramid scorer team on your alliance.

Madison 19-02-2013 18:41

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 
They wrote a rule that allowed human players to throw a large quantity of frisbees at goals 50' away -- but only in a limited time frame -- and they're surprised that .. they do? I don't understand how you could ever imagine that the last 30 seconds was going to play out any other way.

Kevin Sevcik 19-02-2013 18:42

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 
While the timing of this decision is extremely unfortunate, I don't think you can argue much with the rationale. The nets are several feet back from the field, meant to protect the crowd and venue. Inside the nets are refs, scorers, field reset, etc. The refs in particular have to work right next to the field to properly ref the game. Particularly in the end game when they need to make calls on the legality of climbs. The GDC had to make the call of whether to let the rules stand or let the refs decide between properly observing and calling a match or getting clocked in the head by errant HP frisbees.

I think the call is the right one from a safety and game management standpoint, I just think it should have been blindingly obvious to the GDC from the start that the original rules were going to result in this. Give a HP even a small chance at a scoring a point, and they're going to take it. You only have to look at the cross court shooting attempts from last year to see that.

EDIT: My mistake, nets are right on the guard rails. On the other hand, the nets don't cover the area over the goals. Which means lots of frisbees flying over the player stations, which is presumably what they're worried about. So trade clocking a ref with clocking a queued team/robot instead.

Ankit S. 19-02-2013 18:42

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 
Well our human players are gonna be bummed...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kevin Sevcik (Post 1236585)
Inside the nets are refs, scorers, field reset, etc. The refs in particular have to work right next to the field to properly ref the game.

I think the refs are outside the nets actually, but I can double check today.

RoboTigers1796 19-02-2013 18:43

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 
Wow... the day of stop build. That seriously stinks and changes our whole outlook on our success this season.

I'm sure many others are in our boat too. As IndySam indicated, we went against the norm and opted for an efficient pick-up instead of a climb. We anticipated this "blizzard" from day 1 of build, why couldn't the GDC.

With this in mind we thought in 25 seconds we could score at least 6-8 discs for 18-24 points with a 3 second 10 point hang to effectively beat or match a standard 30 pt hang thanks to the 30 second nemo storm. And with that our season is enormously affected. Such a shame.

Oh well, best of luck to the rest of the teams that went with this strategy.

Akash Rastogi 19-02-2013 18:43

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by BJC (Post 1236582)
This is very... irritating.

What's done is done though, no amount of complaining will change it back. Keep that in mind when posting in this thread.

Regards, Bryan

Yeah I gotta agree. As a fellow floor loader, sucks but oh well.

This will certainly make matches less exciting though. Why didn't they discuss taller netting instead of eliminating part of the game?

Andrew Lawrence 19-02-2013 18:43

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 
While I can understand how this can be devastating for teams who planned on amazing group pickup, there are still great uses for ground-pickup bots.

-Not every frisbee is going to be scored on its first try. This is for both alliances. Discs will miss, and in a match where there is a full-court shooter on each alliance, I think every missed frisbee, on both alliance sides, will be the difference between loosing a match. I think a ground pickup bot that utilizes the frisbees missed by an opponent can easily change the tide of the match. Instead of 45 frisbees for each team, suddenly the team with the ground pickup bot gets 60 frisbees, and the other team gets 30.

-Autonomous mode is the second-highest ranking factor next to qualification scores. Teams who can get the frisbees from the ground are not only going to score a major lead for their team, but also rank higher.

All is not lost.

Steven Donow 19-02-2013 18:44

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Madison (Post 1236584)
They wrote a rule that allowed human players to throw a large quantity of frisbees at goals 50' away -- but only in a limited time frame -- and they're surprised that .. they do? I don't understand how you could ever imagine that the last 30 seconds was going to play out any other way.

I think they expected the nets to work significantly better than they seemed to/found the large amount to be significantly distracting to the audience close to the field-even if the nets worked fine.

Overall, I'm not sure how to feel about this; again, it makes floor pickup feel more like something we could have possibly given up, but I'm confident it's importance isn't TOTALLY diminished now...I guess my opinion will depend on how our climbing mechanism goes...

ehfeinberg 19-02-2013 18:46

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 
NOOO!!!

I really wanted to score some discs into the top goal, but I agree that the GDC made the right choice. There were just too many discs being thrown. Now to start practicing on the nearly impossible pyramid goal!

This decision does help my team, and all other teams with a full court shooter. Now that there is no fury of discs in the last 30 seconds, teams with ground pickup are going to need some quick supply of discs across the field.

bduddy 19-02-2013 18:47

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Madison (Post 1236584)
They wrote a rule that allowed human players to throw a large quantity of frisbees at goals 50' away -- but only in a limited time frame -- and they're surprised that .. they do? I don't understand how you could ever imagine that the last 30 seconds was going to play out any other way.

I agree - I find it incredibly disappointing and borderline unbelievable that the GDC did not anticipate what was going to happen during the last 30 seconds of the game. What other possible outcome could there be, other than all of the remaining frisbees being thrown as quickly as possible in the vague direction of a goal or robot? And why could they not simply expand the nets, for example, rather than changing a clearly stated rule on the last day of build?

Tom Line 19-02-2013 18:50

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AllenGregoryIV (Post 1236579)
This is devastating. Our strategy was that fast floor pickup could even out not having a 30 point hang. This completely removes that idea. I understand safety concerns but why did my students just spend 6 weeks perfecting floor pickup and being able to drive around on a lot of discs. I'm just glad there seems to be a lot of full court shooters, that can replace the humans throwing.

More than anything this just killed team moral.

Yes. We made a lot of design trade offs to support floor pickup. BIG ones. Now, unless we have a 'pray and spray' teammate, we're going to be at a disadvantage having to traverse the field to get discs.

We sacrificed a high climb mechanism based on the math of a floor pickup with readily available discs, and what we could do in 30 seconds.

I'm pretty angry about this.

Hjelstrom 19-02-2013 18:50

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 
Now they should lower the climb points to 5,10,15 to even it out! :-)

JohnSchneider 19-02-2013 18:51

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 
Youre still going to have lots of Frisbees on the floor from the tons and tons* of full court shooters. And your floor pickup still gives you a huge edge in autonomous.

dodar 19-02-2013 18:51

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Hjelstrom (Post 1236601)
Now they should lower the climb points to 5,10,15 to even it out! :-)

No. Climbing would not even be worth it if they were that low.

GaryVoshol 19-02-2013 18:52

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kevin Sevcik (Post 1236585)
Inside the nets are refs, scorers, field reset, etc. The refs in particular have to work right next to the field to properly ref the game. Particularly in the end game when they need to make calls on the legality of climbs.

Everyone is outside the nets during the match. The refs are outside the nets. Probably because of their position close to the nets, they are more protected from discs than others that are standing or sitting 8, 10 or 15 feet away.

I'm sure the GDC and others at FIRST saw the potential for people that have to be near the field - FTA, score table, reset, next match on deck, etc - being bombarded by errant discs. It was bad enough when we had to avoid flying tubes, and only a limited number of those. When a disc is launched for a 54' hail mary, I can see it would be very easy for it to fly over the opposite alliance station or curve out over the net.

It's unfortunate that a rule change has to be made this late, but better now than after Week 1.

Andrew Lawrence 19-02-2013 18:52

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by dodar (Post 1236604)
No. Climbing would not even be worth it if they were that low.

Maybe 10, 15, 20? Or 10, 20, 25, since from what I hear once you're on the second rung, you can easily get to the third.

MooreteP 19-02-2013 18:56

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kevin Sevcik (Post 1236572)
Well THAT's a game changer if I've ever seen one. So long frisbee blizzard and ultimate frisbee human players. Definitely a blow to ground-pickup robots everywhere. On the plus side, late game maneuverability just got a lot easier.

During the least 30 seconds, I would be surprised to see a floor pickup and shooting robot manage even one cycle with white frisbees thrown by the human players.

Floor pickup will still be important with the number of Frisbees that will start on the floor, as well as those from missed shots.

After attending the Suffield Shakedown, I can attest to the safety issue involved here. If you want to, blame the lawyers, not the GDC.
The GDC made a thoughtful choice here.

Less than 10 percent of the Frisbees thrown made it into a goal.

At least the game reset crew is probably going to have an easier time of it.

Let's not make this a bigger deal than it is.

nuggetsyl 19-02-2013 19:05

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MooreteP (Post 1236608)
During the least 30 seconds, I would be surprised to see a floor pickup and shooting robot manage even one cycle with white frisbees thrown by the human

We can easily do 2 if not 3 cycles in 30. I have to say this rule changes the game for us. I would like to see climbing lowered to level things out.

Zebra_Fact_Man 19-02-2013 19:07

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MooreteP (Post 1236608)
Let's not make this a bigger deal than it is.

It's a pretty big deal. Personally coming from a team that elected to go with a floor loader + 10pt hang as apposed to a 30 point climber because it gave us a greater potential to score more points in the last 30 seconds, this essentially kills our strategy based on the endgame blizzard. Unless we are lucky enough to be matched with a bot that can cross-court shoot, our floor loader is MUCH less useful.

I understand frisbees are less predictable and controllable than a ball or tube, and way more likely to deviate off course, but at some point, game element like this (nonscoring related) should not be changing.

SM987 19-02-2013 19:08

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MooreteP (Post 1236608)
Let's not make this a bigger deal than it is.

Given that it's stop build day, I haven't seen anyone overreact. That said, this is a minor plus for climbers and a minor bummer for floor loaders. I don't see it being a huge issue in anything but the highest level of competition.

dodar 19-02-2013 19:09

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 
Honestly, teams should have built for both human loading and floor loading.

Madison 19-02-2013 19:13

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by dodar (Post 1236614)
Honestly, teams should have built for both human loading and floor loading.

...based on what reasoning?

Vikingtech2054 19-02-2013 19:14

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by nuggetsyl (Post 1236610)
We can easily do 2 if not 3 cycles in 30. I have to say this rule changes the game for us. I would like to see climbing lowered to level things out.

I feel the same way. We designed a fast pickup for getting the frisbees at the end. I like the idea of lowering the climb points to even it out. Or possibly come up with a low cost netting system for behind the goals, and change the rule back

steelerborn 19-02-2013 19:14

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 
Team 1671 The Bird Brains made their entire bot to have an amazing pick-up system, to easily get disks from the ground. Now there will be only missed shot disks for us to pick-up. This really lowers the advantage that we had in the last 30 seconds. We could easily get 2 shots of 4 off in that time. I agree that something needs to be done to even the game out not sure what it would be.

Not too happy with FIRST about this decision but oh well :/

Sam390250 19-02-2013 19:15

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 
I think I am mostly just disappointed because that frenzy of discs was so fun to watch in the last 30 seconds! Just like building a slip n slide off the top of your house, you know its probably not the safest idea but it is so fun you can't resist! However, with FIRST being held responsible for the people on that slip n slide, I can regrettably understand their decision.

That being said, there were still a ton of discs on the floor from missed shots at our week 0 event. Though this change will obviously impact strategy, it might not be quite as drastic as initially thought. Our strategy of no floor pickup seemed a little questionable at our event because the number of discs that ended up on the floor early in the match was higher than we anticipated.

dodar 19-02-2013 19:16

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Madison (Post 1236615)
...based on what reasoning?

1. It should have been relatively easy to do.
2. Almost every year, the good teams have been able to get game pieces off the ground or from HP(2012,2011,2010,2009,2007,2006,etc..)

AllenGregoryIV 19-02-2013 19:17

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by dodar (Post 1236614)
Honestly, teams should have built for both human loading and floor loading.

That's just not true. Everyone's strategy is different and based on the game rules. We were hoping to never leave our auto zone so human loading was not needed.

Andy Grady 19-02-2013 19:17

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 
GREAT rule change. While I could understand some frustration to not realizing this earlier, this is why there are week 0 events. Anyone who was at any of the scrimmages could have told you that the last 30 seconds were an absolute mess and needed to be changed...for the better of the game, and for the safety of those involved. Those of us who volunteer on the field are greatly appreciative of it, I assure you.

-Andy

BugByte 19-02-2013 19:17

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AllenGregoryIV (Post 1236620)
That's just not true. Everyone's strategy is different and based on the game rules. We were hoping to never leave our auto zone so human loading was not needed.

Were you planning to get discs before the last 30 seconds?

dodar 19-02-2013 19:18

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AllenGregoryIV (Post 1236620)
That's just not true. Everyone's strategy is different and based on the game rules. We were hoping to never leave our auto zone so human loading was not needed.

Well then this really doesnt affect you save the last 30 seconds of the match. So, 3/4 of your match strategy doesnt change.

MooreteP 19-02-2013 19:19

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by nuggetsyl (Post 1236610)
We can easily do 2 if not 3 cycles in 30. I have to say this rule changes the game for us. I would like to see climbing lowered to level things out.

You may be right and I may be wrong.

Your team consistently builds clever and effective robots.

I would be amazed by a 10 second cycle.

One solution may be to ask a weak shooting partner to load and shoot from across the field, that way, you would have a constant supply for more than just the last 30 seconds.

Was your team able to solve the upside down frisbee pickup problem?

nicholsjj 19-02-2013 19:20

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 
Well from a climber perspective it's not a huge bonus to our game strategy except for the fact that our robot will sit at the feeder station and shoot all 15 of our shoots. If we miss then that gives our alliance the "snow" to do their 30 second strategy. This means that an alliance can get two chances to score the same 15 disks.:cool:

JesseK 19-02-2013 19:22

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 
Meh, I'm too tired to care. Maybe I'll feel differently later. It's a game changer for some, but it isn't for us. We totally did a double-wide scoop for autonomous, and as such it isn't the most efficient at swift floor pickup as others seen here. Though with such a quick hang, I was totally hoping to get at least an extra hopper from floor discs just because they were so close. Heavy sigh.

I wonder why they simply didn't reduce the window of time to something much smaller, or limit the quantity, or give a 3-point penalty per errant disc?

dcarr 19-02-2013 19:46

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by dodar (Post 1236568)
This will greatly lessen the end game. Imagine if all those epic endgame shots hadnt happened last year; some of those moments were more amazing than some by the robots.

Maybe so. But I do FIRST to inspire/be inspired about STEM, not athletic ability...there are plenty of other sports for that.

dag0620 19-02-2013 19:47

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 
While I understand the frustration with a mid-year rule change, I have to applaud FIRST for doing this.

As an attendant at Suffield, I can tell you the blizzard got out of hand. Several of my team mates and I did or almost did get hit by a Frisbee in the final 30 seconds. This is so needed for safety's reason.

I do also understand that many people would assume we would improve the nets. However at this point the next step to protect spectators would be nets hanging from the ceiling of the venue, and there's just too many variables, expense, and hastle to make that happen.

Overall great rule change, and I'm happy to see it happen.

dodar 19-02-2013 19:51

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by dcarr (Post 1236635)
Maybe so. But I do FIRST to inspire/be inspired about STEM, not athletic ability...there are plenty of other sports for that.

Its not about athletic ability, but to inspire you have to have the quality of a product to attract, and then hook students and mentors. Would a new student rather see 3 teams completely dominate another alliance because they have an amazing distance shooter and 2 hangers or see a match where that alliance is going up against a distance shooter, a hanger, and a ground clean up bot and the score is decided by HP scores? I would say the latter could be a greater way to inspire.

nuggetsyl 19-02-2013 19:57

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 
While I am disappointed in the rule change. I have talked to a few people that were at a week 0 event. The GDC made a decision to protect the kids and field crew and I fully support their decision. We will adapt and go kick some bot. On am added note I agree with Cory a few posts down in how the GDC could not see this coming is almost a crime in itself.

dodar 19-02-2013 19:59

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 
How tall were the nets? And are the media people for each team required to stay behind the nets? Also, are the nets going to be too tall to see psat them with the regional webcast? Because seeing streams and team videos through netting will be extremely annoying.

Cory 19-02-2013 20:03

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 
It's laughably bad that the GDC didn't have the foresight to realize this was going to happen.

Seriously, who didn't think that there would be a barrage of frisbees flying everywhere?

It's like a year ago when they came up with the game they said 2+2=5 and then today realized it actually equals 4...

Quote:

Originally Posted by dodar (Post 1236644)
How tall were the nets? And are the media people for each team required to stay behind the nets? Also, are the nets going to be too tall to see psat them with the regional webcast? Because seeing streams and team videos through netting will be extremely annoying.

I highly doubt you'd even be able to see the netting from a webcast. I'm sitting 6' from some right now and it doesn't obstruct your view at all.

Andrew Schreiber 19-02-2013 20:04

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Madison (Post 1236615)
...based on what reasoning?

Silly reasoning. Silly wrong reasoning.

The fact is we all picked our strategy under a different set of rules than what we will now be playing under. While this may not be a problem for some teams it is a problem for others.

I'm not looking forward to explaining to my students this change. Not because it may or may not impact our strategy or our robot's performance but because of what it says at a deeper level. I don't want to have to explain to my students (again) why we are playing Whose Line Is It Anyway... The points are made up and the rules don't matter. Why all the analysis we did at the beginning of the season is changed now that it's too late to fix anything. What I'm telling them is that life isn't fair and it doesn't matter if you use due diligence only if you have dumb luck and the powers that be don't make a change that should have been obvious if they'd given this game even a modicum of thought.

AllenGregoryIV 19-02-2013 20:07

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew Schreiber (Post 1236650)
Silly reasoning. Silly wrong reasoning.

The fact is we all picked our strategy under a different set of rules than what we will now be playing under. While this may not be a problem for some teams it is a problem for others.

I'm not looking forward to explaining to my students this change. Not because it may or may not impact our strategy or our robot's performance but because of what it says at a deeper level. I don't want to have to explain to my students (again) why we are playing Whose Line Is It Anyway... The points are made up and the rules don't matter. Why all the analysis we did at the beginning of the season is changed now that it's too late to fix anything. What I'm telling them is that life isn't fair and it doesn't matter if you use due diligence only if you have dumb luck and the powers that be don't make a change that should have been obvious if they'd given this game even a modicum of thought.

Thank you for wording this better than I could. I just had to explain it to my team and it was the most unpleasant moment of the season by far.

nicholsjj 19-02-2013 20:24

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Cory (Post 1236648)
It's laughably bad that the GDC didn't have the foresight to realize this was going to happen.

Seriously, who didn't think that there would be a barrage of frisbees flying everywhere?

Should teams have not have had the foresight then that this would occur or were we the only team to?

Chris is me 19-02-2013 20:28

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by nicholsjj (Post 1236661)
Should teams have not have had the foresight then that this would occur or were we the only team to?

You anticipated that the GDC would make a ship day rule change completely changing how the game is played, invalidating a potentially great endgame strategy? I wish I had that kind of foresight.

IndySam 19-02-2013 20:30

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by nicholsjj (Post 1236661)
Should teams have not have had the foresight then that this would occur or were we the only team to?

Can you get your team to pick powerball numbers for me?

Alexa Stott 19-02-2013 20:34

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by dodar (Post 1236619)
1. It should have been relatively easy to do.
2. Almost every year, the good teams have been able to get game pieces off the ground or from HP(2012,2011,2010,2009,2007,2006,etc..)

I beg to differ. We couldn't pick pieces up from the floor in 2006 and did pretty well for ourselves.

I think everyone upset about this has every right to be.

I certainly understand why the decision was made--safety is incredibly important. As many others have pointed out, it's very surprising that the GDC did not anticipate this ahead of time. All they really had to do was look at something like 2009's endgame and recall the balls flying all over. Add in that frisbees can move in pretty strange ways and you've got the perfect recipe for, well, a blizzard.

Keefe2471 19-02-2013 20:34

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 
I think he was saying the opposite actually. That the GDC should have antipated our anticipation :D

On a more personal note this is an awful time to change the game. A more specialized net should have been the first thing attempted. Although the size of these nets has been concerning me the entire season, this response seems "nuclear" in the magnitude it affects the game.

Andrew Schreiber 19-02-2013 20:38

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by nicholsjj (Post 1236661)
Should teams have not have had the foresight then that this would occur or were we the only team to?

Honestly? No. I knew this part of the game was potentially dangerous. However, I assumed that FIRST had taken steps to mitigate this danger. I assumed that the people who design these games had learned from past games (2012, 2007, and 2006 come to mind).

DampRobot 19-02-2013 20:45

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Alexa Stott (Post 1236676)
I beg to differ. We couldn't pick pieces up from the floor in 2006 and did pretty well for ourselves.

Team 25 had an awesome robot in 2006. Their robot's success formed a large part of our decision not to bother to pick up from the floor this year. I still believe a good 30 point climber, executed correctly, is a lot more advantageous than a floor pickup.

It's really too bad that the GDC chose to change rules this drastically this late in the game. I really have a hard time believing that they didn't even think that human players would try to throw game pieces when they were allowed to. Teams with a floor pickup have every right to be upset. They would do well to remember though that there will be other frisbees on the ground...

Looking on the bright side, I foresaw a lot of robots would be crippled due to driving over frisbees in the last 30 seconds of the game. This should make it less of a problem.

Anupam Goli 19-02-2013 20:50

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 
I know I anticipated the blizzard, but I still feel like floor pickups will be useful, especially for missed shots. Perhaps now climbing is more weighted without the blizzard, so I'm expecting maybe for climbing points to be changed at championships.

Drivencrazy 19-02-2013 20:51

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 
Just to echo everyone else on this thread, I can't believe they didn't see that one coming. I thought at the beginning of the season that even with the nets we would see way more game pieces fly off the field than ever before and I even underestimated how many would be flying around based on my observation of week 0.

As for changing things this late in the season I can see both sides of the story. Yes it sucks. There is no denying it. Especially because it seemed so blatantly obvious that this would happen. And it sucks that it happened so late in the season. Remind anyone else of last year's troll bot?

On the other hand I understand why they did it. Let's face it, a lot of people who build robots aren't the most coordinated people in the world and even the most athletically inclined among us will make a bad toss every once in a while. It only takes one bad hammer to get someone hurt and I know that everyone in FIRST is concerned with people's safety.

I'm sorry for all the teams this has hurt. If I know anything I know that FIRST teams always find a way to make magic happen.

Andrew Schreiber 19-02-2013 20:56

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Drivencrazy (Post 1236706)
On the other hand I understand why they did it. Let's face it, a lot of people who build robots aren't the most coordinated people in the world and even the most athletically inclined among us will make a bad toss every once in a while. It only takes one bad hammer to get someone hurt and I know that everyone in FIRST is concerned with people's safety.

Just to be clear, I'm not upset about the rule change. In fact, I applaud the GDC for having the courage to make this safety critical change. I'm mad they were foolish enough not to realize that it'd be a problem initially.

topgun 19-02-2013 21:04

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 
Floor Pickup will still be valuable for autonomous for those teams going for a 7 disc autonomous. The extra four discs can still add 24 points.

I think it raises the value of those robots with less than accurate long shooters as a potential alliance pick. They will be able to rain in the discs if needed for an accurate floor feeder.

Floor feeders can still pickup at the feeding stations though it does add the trip time to their cycle time.

I see the floor feeders as still more versatile than feeder station only robots.

Having said all that, a bag day rule change that affects a team's choice of strategy still hurts.

Bob Steele 19-02-2013 21:59

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 
The rule is changed.... we move on...

I do think that perhaps another change might be in order to at least give credence to the teams that were counting on frisbees the last 30 seconds and designed around that contingency.

Perhaps either the game could start with more frisbees on the field? perhaps 8 more on each side...along the walls.... this would allow a team to use those during the last 30 seconds...

Or, perhaps a better approach would be for 8 or some other number of frisbees to be tossed in from the side of the field by the resetters...

This would allow for better safety and still allow teams that planned on picking up frisbees during the end game to have them available.

I am not sure how this could be implemented but I think it could be done easily... especially starting with more on the floor. put four on each side of the center line against the wall.... for a total of 16 extra frisbees....8 each side.

Just a thought... trying to make it better for those teams that feel they have had their strategies compromised....

Good luck to all on the field...

DonRotolo 19-02-2013 22:05

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 
Ya know...sometimes, design specs get changed at the last second. Or the market changes while you weren't watching. It Happens.

I have to agree that safety comes first.

And remember this: What may be obvious to you will be a surprise to someone else.

I am very confident that the GDC put a huge amount of thought and effort into the game. Mistakes happen. They did say they were sorry. Sure, I wish I was part of the GDC, so I could've pointed this out...but even odds are that I'd have missed it too.

So, onward!

Tuba4 19-02-2013 22:16

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by dag0620 (Post 1236636)
I do also understand that many people would assume we would improve the nets. However at this point the next step to protect spectators would be nets hanging from the ceiling of the venue, and there's just too many variables, expense, and hastle to make that happen

I am not sure what the variables really would be. You already have one or more lifts and riggers to hang lighting systems, PA systems and curtains from the ceiling. Longer netting should be all that would be needed.

waialua359 19-02-2013 22:24

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MooreteP (Post 1236625)
You may be right and I may be wrong.

Your team consistently builds clever and effective robots.

I would be amazed by a 10 second cycle.

One solution may be to ask a weak shooting partner to load and shoot from across the field, that way, you would have a constant supply for more than just the last 30 seconds.

Was your team able to solve the upside down frisbee pickup problem?

With no defense, we can do 4 made shots with a complete round trip from the feeder station in 12 seconds.
With an effective floor feeder around/near the pyramid with tons of frisbees on the ground as a result of human throwing error, I see that as very possible.

Many teams have made shooters that can unload all of their frisbees in protected zones around/under the pyramid in the low 1.X second range.

I just saw another team in Hawaii showcase all 4 frisbees in less than 1 second.

Kevin Sevcik 19-02-2013 22:24

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tuba4 (Post 1236809)
I am not sure what the variables really would be. You already have one or more lifts and riggers to hang lighting systems, PA systems and curtains from the ceiling. Longer netting should be all that would be needed.

Plus more rigging, plus the extra labor for rigging those nets, plus all the many, many district events that DON'T have lifts, riggers, and lighting systems. There's a reason that the current nets are supported by freestanding steel frames.

waialua359 19-02-2013 22:26

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DampRobot (Post 1236695)
Team 25 had an awesome robot in 2006. Their robot's success formed a large part of our decision not to bother to pick up from the floor this year. I still believe a good 30 point climber, executed correctly, is a lot more advantageous than a floor pickup.

It's really too bad that the GDC chose to change rules this drastically this late in the game. I really have a hard time believing that they didn't even think that human players would try to throw game pieces when they were allowed to. Teams with a floor pickup have every right to be upset. They would do well to remember though that there will be other frisbees on the ground...

Looking on the bright side, I foresaw a lot of robots would be crippled due to driving over frisbees in the last 30 seconds of the game. This should make it less of a problem.

I respectfully disagree to an extent.
From the videos posted on CD so far, none/very few if any, posted times of less than 30 seconds.
30 seconds is enough time for many teams to make 2 trips to the feeder station to unload 8 discs and hang from the 10 pointer to effectively beat the high hang.

1493kd 19-02-2013 22:28

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 
We are much faster loading from the floor then driving to the feeder station and I am not to worried about this rule change. I was worried about damage to bots from the Frisbee storm at the end and I think there will be a good amount of them on the floor for us to still pick up. I

waialua359 19-02-2013 22:28

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by SM987 (Post 1236613)
Given that it's stop build day, I haven't seen anyone overreact. That said, this is a minor plus for climbers and a minor bummer for floor loaders. I don't see it being a huge issue in anything but the highest level of competition.

This just about sums it up.

At the highest level at competitions.....i.e. playoffs, regional finals, Einstein, etc. it will make a big difference.

dtengineering 19-02-2013 22:43

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 
Rather than changing a rule, perhaps it would have been sufficient to add a rule:

"Any discs thrown by a human player that are seen to leave the playing field will result in a 10 point penalty to the offending alliance."


Human players would learn very, very quickly to keep their discs within bounds. Teams could still safely throw discs downfield to floor loaders, and could even aim for the low goals.

Actually, to ease reffing, it could probably be extended to a penalty for any disc leaving the field, whether fired by a robot or thrown by a human. It would be consistant with the guidance that discs are to remain within the bounds of the playing field.

And I'll cut the GDC some slack on this one... they probably tried throwing discs downfield to hit the goals as part of their game testing. They probably didn't do it, however, with the "enthusiasm" of a half-dozen excited teenagers with nothing to lose. I'll even grant them the fact that after observing a potentially dangerous situation that they were obliged to act to limit the danger. I just don't know if they chose the least disruptive way to go about it.

Jason

cgmv123 19-02-2013 22:49

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by dtengineering (Post 1236835)
Rather than changing a rule, perhaps it would have been sufficient to add a rule:

"Any discs thrown by a human player that are seen to leave the playing field will result in a 10 point penalty to the offending alliance."

I'd prefer a cap on the number of white discs that can be thrown. That doesn't get at the whole problem, but it's better than before..

PVCpirate 19-02-2013 22:51

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 
Thinking back to 2010: at least they didn't make the change after week 1.

Nick Lawrence 19-02-2013 22:54

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 
Colour me unimpressed. I feel bad for the teams who built floor loading mechanisms. How could they not have seen this?

They should have enclosed the field more. End of story.

I hope this is fixed very very soon. If not, I know exactly what kind of robot will win a world championship this year.

-Nick

Tom Line 19-02-2013 23:09

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by PVCpirate (Post 1236851)
Thinking back to 2010: at least they didn't make the change after week 1.

You're the second or third person to say this, and I have to disagree. For teams that chose to forego climbing for floor pickup, 1 week or 3 weeks makes no difference. You aren't going to be redesigning your bot to suddenly make it climb to thirty.

JHammond 19-02-2013 23:17

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 
Would not be surprised if the GDC did not anticipate human players throwing discs at a vertical orientation high and hard so that some carried 10+ feet over the field ends or spun out far beyond the corner of a field. In practice these flew very differently than a traditional horizontal Frisbee throw. They were more like missiles than anything at the Nashua event. You'd get 5 or 6 of these high hard throws in the air and it was a bit dicey.

rcmolloy 19-02-2013 23:20

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nick Lawrence (Post 1236854)
Colour me unimpressed. I feel bad for the teams who built floor loading mechanisms. How could they not have seen this?

They should have enclosed the field more. End of story.

I hope this is fixed very very soon. If not, I know exactly what kind of robot will win a world championship this year.

-Nick

I bet 469's strategic team bought the celebratory champagne (sparkling cider for others) right after the announcement.

On another note, this shouldn't kill gameplay at all. If you have a floor pickup mechanism, you have a much better chance of seeding higher than most of the teams at your competition if utilized well not only during autonomous but teleop as well. Having that one extra component of your robot that can do something most others cannot is just a plus in my opinion.

Trust me, I'm not even upset at this at all. That's a little surprising for me though since I have been trying to figure out the floor pickup problem with my kids for about 4 to 5 weeks. If you're looking to get ahead in the game before everyone else you will most definitely have some way of getting frisbees off the ground and into your robot.

Blackphantom91 19-02-2013 23:21

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nick Lawrence (Post 1236854)
Colour me unimpressed. I feel bad for the teams who built floor loading mechanisms. How could they not have seen this?

They should have enclosed the field more. End of story.

I hope this is fixed very very soon. If not, I know exactly what kind of robot will win a world championship this year.

-Nick

Care to clue us in on what robot?

On a side note I think it was a bad move to do something this drastic so late. It is unfortunate that many teams put their hard time and effort into design for the rules of the game to change. Many people have spent long weeks designing these soon to be spectacular robots. although, at the end of the day what is done is done. I guess it may lead more into people investigating the 30lbs withholding :ahh: I personally don't like it but I can't gripe there must have been an logistical reason behind it.

connor.worley 19-02-2013 23:24

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 
If the San Diego week 0 event showed me anything, there will still be no shortage of disks on the floor.

connor.worley 19-02-2013 23:30

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jd09cw (Post 1236885)
SOOO looking forward to watching finals on Einstein with 6 - 100% accurate full court shooters... at least 2 robots playing defence on each other for access to the un-protected feeding stations will provide some contrast.

Not.

TOTALLY looking forward to seeing 84" plastic sheetbots shut down full court shooters. :D

Garten Haeska 19-02-2013 23:34

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 
When I first read this, my heart dropped. We focused on making our robot pick up this year, mainly in the last 30 seconds was the easiest because of the surplus of Frisbees. Nevertheless, we are still glad we made our robot pick up because we can for sure shoot 4 frisbees in auto, but are still working on getting that 5th one in there.

We cant change it for safety reasons, but with this being said, there are those teams that are happy with the choice, and those who are utterly upset that this came on bag and tag day, and then we have all of the human players that are mad because they cant show off their skills.

Steven Donow 19-02-2013 23:36

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nick Lawrence (Post 1236854)
Colour me unimpressed. I feel bad for the teams who built floor loading mechanisms. How could they not have seen this?

They should have enclosed the field more. End of story.

I hope this is fixed very very soon. If not, I know exactly what kind of robot will win a world championship this year.

-Nick

I don't know about other teams, but when deciding to do floor loading, "endgame flood" was just an additional benefit and not a major drive behind the design decision to floor load. No matter what, I think the floor will be fairly crowded due to missed shots. Maybe sometime tomorrow I'll do some math, but as of now, I'm just plain tired from build season. Also, while watching the stream of Suffield Shakedown, I think I saw plenty of discs upside down from HP throws, a contrast to most shot discs landing right side up.

And, looking at a video posted from Suffield Shakedown, I think this is definitely a good decision on the GDC's part, to at least in some way limit how much can be thrown in the last 30 seconds. There is most definitely a safety risk involved, and arguably can be seen as a distraction to the audience...

Now, when a thrown disc knocks down the alliance's own robot from climbing...that'll be something...

Karthik 19-02-2013 23:37

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 
My general principle is that there should be no significant rules changes after kickoff unless there's a safety issue involved. That's the case here. The GDC was in a very difficult position, having to choose between two unpleasant options; making a significant in-season rule change or leaving a significant safety hazard in play. In my opinion they absolutely made the right choice. Unfortunately, I know that right now this is very little consolation to the affected teams, especially because some of them made their strategic decisions based predicting this storm of frisbees that wasn't envisioned by the GDC.

As for how this will impact game play, there's no denying that this will change the game dynamic, I don't think the change is as large as people are making it out to be. The main value of a floor pickup is extra points that can be scored in the autonomous period; this hasn't been altered. Yes, there will be less discs available in the last 30 seconds of the match, but many of these discs would have been very difficult or even impossible to pick up by most teams. (Flipped over, clumped in piles, etc.) In general there won't be a shortage of discs; In 2012 Teams only made 66% of their shots on the Archimedes division at championship. I expect shooting percentages to be in that ballpark once again, leaving a huge supply of discs on the floor.

The group of people who I feel the worst for right now are the students who have been training and practicing for the past six weeks to be human players. There are definitely going to be some disappointed HPs tonight.

RoboTigers1796 19-02-2013 23:41

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 
As others have said, I see this only affecting elims and championships.
Standard qualification matches will still have bountiful discs to pick up in my opinion.
However, I think a lot are over anticipating how many discs will be on the field without the blizzard, remember a lot of what I saw anyway from suffield was the result of not having 6 robots on the field and teams still fine tuning their shooters.
However, once you get to eliminations when there are 6(4?) of the best scorers on the field, I feel the supply on the floor will dissipate quickly before the end of the match, and that's why I'm disappointed to see it go. When it counts the most, what we believed to be an upper hand has turned into a vastly less significant feature.
*I am not trying to complain, I understand the need to take action for safety's sake, just discussing the strategy we had that was lost by the update

LeelandS 19-02-2013 23:50

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 
As a former human player who took great pride in his craft (primarily in 2011, with the tube throwing), I can agree with Karthik when he says there will be some disappointed human players.

I don't see a truly huge change in the game. Yes, I think the GDC may have slipped up on not foreseeing this (even playing Catalyst, I could tell it would be an issue. One second you're lining up for a shot and the next you can't see a darned thing). But the frenzy of frisbees is a serious issue. From fieldside at the Rochester Rally, that "blizzard" is absolutely terrifying. You get 6 people lobbing hard plastic discs of death across the field, someone does get hit or something gets broken. I agree 100% with the GDC in this decision.

No, it's not great to come out with this on the day of stop build. It's actually a really bad thing to do, but the GDC can't just be like "Well, it's a safety issue. But teams have built their robots for six weeks under these rules, so we have to let it go." Yes, teams built their robots under these rules and it really does suck that now those decision made are invalidated. But the GDC has to put their foot down and make a decision, and at the end of the day, safety will always be first, no matter what.

Donut 20-02-2013 00:01

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by SM987 (Post 1236613)
Given that it's stop build day, I haven't seen anyone overreact. That said, this is a minor plus for climbers and a minor bummer for floor loaders. I don't see it being a huge issue in anything but the highest level of competition.

I think this could have a drastic effect in low level qualification matches. Say you are a floor loader and are partnered with two robots with broken/inoperable/nonexistent shooters; the only method of getting frisbees is to get them from the loading station yourself, pick up the handful on your side of the field at the start of the match, or have human players throw them in the last 30 seconds. That last option is now gone, which means there is no way to get a suddenly large influx of discs that your rapid fire shooter can score. If you're going up against a good alliance that round what was already a difficult qualification match to win just became almost impossible.

The changes at the highest level of competition are up in the air to me. At the highest level most of the shooters would be very accurate and many teams would probably have floor pickups, which means there are likely to be few if any missed shots lying around before the last 30 seconds. Depending on how defense plays out this year though the alliance may have already exhausted most of the 45 human loading frisbees, in which case there's no difference since there is nothing to throw. I think the effect on the high level will be dependent on how effective defense is.

GCentola 20-02-2013 00:05

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 
I wasn't exactly sure what to say because most of it has already been explained somewhere so I guess I will say this:

This is frustrating. Making a change this late in the season seems a bit of a smack in the face to many teams who would have made different decisions were these rules in place week 1, but we may find out that it doesn't change much. Teams with the ability to floor-load may have an advantage during some parts of the game, but if you can do both well, it shouldn't be an issue. But as mentioned above, the lack of foresight is almost more frustrating than the rule-change itself - but it happened and the reasoning for doing so makes complete sense. The frisbee blizzard is rather terrifying behind the glass; "the game pieces are not foam balls or inflatable tubes-they are hard plastic discs of death." (thanks for the quote, Leeland)

There are a few posts throughout the thread (Andrew, Karthik, Leeland to name a few) that sum things up very well. In my opinion, the elite teams will always adapt whether or not they are frustrated and this is why they rise to the top every time. No doubt the best teams this year, whether they can floor-load or not, will move on and play a great game. Perhaps this is what we should do as well.

Lil' Lavery 20-02-2013 00:08

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by dodar (Post 1236619)
1. It should have been relatively easy to do.
2. Almost every year, the good teams have been able to get game pieces off the ground or from HP(2012,2011,2010,2009,2007,2006,etc..)

1. That depends greatly on your strategy and design.

2. Blatantly false. Very few teams (let alone "good" teams) loaded directly from the HP in 2011 or 2012. Fewer still could do both (especially in 2011). The HP didn't even load robots in 2010 (unless you're counting the mandatory ball return, which was only directly interfaced by a handful of teams, and never to "load" their robot). 2009 was a mixed bag, but most HP took the opportunity to score directly over loading a robot. Almost nobody human loaded in 2007, and none of the elite teams did with regularity. 2006 is the only year you have a real argument for great teams doing both, but a majority picked human loading as their primary method, with several being exclusive human loaders (25 and 217 being the obvious examples).

Gray Adams 20-02-2013 00:08

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 
I've been completely isolated from any team or strategy for the last 5 weeks so maybe I haven't disocvered a lot of things you guys have, but I really don't see a massive strategy change. Whether or not there was a flood of frisbees in the endgame I still would have wanted a robot that picks up off the floor. It surprises me that teams would decide on picking up off the floor based on the last 30 seconds of throwing alone. My former team decided to pick up off the ground and climb for 30 points in the initial few strategy meetings (not sure what their plans are now, but I digress) because the intent was to pick frisbees up from missed shots, not just for the end of the game. Sure there's going to be a few less discs around, but at high levels of play human players seem to avoid the blizzard just to starve the opponents. What kind of change are we really going to see?

Sorry guys, I really don't see a big change in the way the game is played.

coalhot 20-02-2013 01:15

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 
I can see why the GDC changed the rules like they did, but I have a question: they only prevented the human players from throwing frisbees during the endgame. So what happens when a team with an overpowered shooter misses (for arguments sake, 50%) of the shots, and that 50% sail above the goal? There isn't a rule against this (as far as I know), and if a teams takes 20-40 shots a match, that's a lot of disks being chucked at the teams getting queued, possibly at a higher velocity then the HP would throw them.

A few teams had ridiculously overpowered shooters last year, I remember at BE, watching a shooter direct driven to two CIM's make every shot clear the alliance wall by about 20 feet. It's more difficult this season, but not impossible.

All in all, It's a decision that needed to happen when it happened; but it's something that the GDC should have seen coming, and put safety nets around the whole field, not just the two sides...

Peyton Yeung 20-02-2013 01:27

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 
Well our HPs are disgruntled to say the least. While the last 30 seconds of the match wasn't the only reason we went for ground loading it was a major one and it caused us to design everything on our robot around it. I guess we will just need to practice different strategies...or hope our alliance partners aren't very good at shooting.

Lil' Lavery 20-02-2013 01:52

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by coalhot (Post 1236977)
I can see why the GDC changed the rules like they did, but I have a question: they only prevented the human players from throwing frisbees during the endgame. So what happens when a team with an overpowered shooter misses (for arguments sake, 50%) of the shots, and that 50% sail above the goal? There isn't a rule against this (as far as I know), and if a teams takes 20-40 shots a match, that's a lot of disks being chucked at the teams getting queued, possibly at a higher velocity then the HP would throw them.

<G03>

Grim Tuesday 20-02-2013 01:59

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 
The real issue I see is that throwing DISCS is still allowed. While there won't be quite the blizzard there was before, I fully expect six colored discs to be thrown for the HIGH GOAL in just about 75% of qualification matches. See the recent Q&A:

Quote:

Q532 Q. In light of the 2/19/13 team update do colored discs thrown by human players in the last 30 seconds into the LOW, MIDDLE, or HIGH GOALS still count as SCORED?
A. Yes.
Our FEEDER was seeing ~4/20 in the HIGH GOAL and 1/20 in the PYRAMID GOAL. I'm sure there are better FEEDERS out there but just thinking about the numbers, that's 12 pts vs 5 pts. There is no reason to shoot for the PYRAMID GOAL with your colored DISCS and you will just end up with the same problem we had before of it being dangerous.

This seems like a game balance rather than a safety fix. Sure there are not going to be quite the blizzard of DISCS flying around but twelve is still quite a large number, more than enough to hit someone or break something.


On a balance side it makes sense. Our team had a number of people who could, from 50 ft and no pyramid in the way make in the range of 4 of 20 into the top goal. I have no doubts that other teams had better FEEDERS and we could be seeing humans hitting multiple shots per match. I don't want humans deciding my matches. This is a robotics competition.

I also suspect that the GDC noticed a large number of discs piling up on the center line and missed shots. This leads me to echo the thought that this will effect higher levels of play much more than lower; the more robots who use all three in AUTO the less there will be to pickup on the field.

My final question is why there was no way to reduce the effect of the DISCS no longer appearing near your goals in the last 30 seconds. If all that is required is that humans no longer throw DISCS in then why not have up to 12 (how many and if colored decided by the alliance) DISCS get dumped in like the balls in 2004. This would solve both the problem of the robots who were relying on the influx of DISCS in the last 30 seconds and the humans throwing hard shots.

SM987 20-02-2013 02:42

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by waialua359 (Post 1236821)
This just about sums it up.

At the highest level at competitions.....i.e. playoffs, regional finals, Einstein, etc. it will make a big difference.

I agree Glenn, it definitely could.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Donut (Post 1236914)
I think this could have a drastic effect in low level qualification matches. Say you are a floor loader and are partnered with two robots with broken/inoperable/nonexistent shooters...

I think many teams can relate here. You get the same dice roll stop build day changes or otherwise. I can recall a few matches won last year by a human player score, or where the scoring consisted of human player shots entirely. So it certainly could impact "lower level" competition.

Individually, many of us are bummed because it feels like our robot has lost some competitive value. Whether an alliance we are on is less valuable as a result... Guess we have to wait and see.

dcarr 20-02-2013 04:50

Re: Team Update 2-19 and FRC Blog - Week 0 Observations and Stop Build Day
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Grim Tuesday (Post 1237001)
I don't want humans deciding my matches. This is a robotics competition.

This is really what it comes down to. It's very unfortunate that the rule had to change this late, but in fact I believe it's a "better" rule.


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