Is Bag and Tag Necessary?
 

Having just passed the stop build day, I am left wondering if it is really necessary and moreover, fair.

My thought is that larger, well staffed and funded teams simply build 2 robots and skip over bag and tag day like a formality and their build continues on their 2nd identical, completed robot. Mid-size teams often scramble and stress to find the funds and resources to build 2 robots, but probably have to expend several extra days after the stop build day to bring their 2nd robot online. Smaller, rookie teams haven't figured out the benefit of the 12 week continuous build cycle or simple can't afford it. Bottom line is that stop build = major advantage to teams who can fund and build 2 robots.

I'd like to see a rule that either everyone stops on stop build day or better yet, just do away with it. Like most other competitions, the stop preparing day is the competition day... whether week 1 or week 6 it's completely fair for everyone.

Besides the nice marketing clip about the 6-week FRC build season I don't see any reason for it. Thoughts?

Re: Is Bag and Tag Necessary?
 

Not all teams that build 2 robots are big and well funded. 1592 was moderately funded but well understaffed for 2 years while building 2 robots but was still able to do it. We found a way to get through this by teaming up with Team 801 who is located not more than 15 miles from our team. Teams do not realize how rewarding it is to be able to work with another team in both fundraising and build season.

Re: Is Bag and Tag Necessary?
 

I need a nap.

My wife and kids need a husband and dad.

George is bagged, and that's a very good thing.

Re: Is Bag and Tag Necessary?
 

This has been discussed before. The only teams it would hurt are those that have to ship their robots ahead of time. Teams in other countries would be at a disadvantage to those that get to drive their robot to the event. That's the only real downside I see. Also you can't tell potential members/mentors that "it's only 6 weeks" when in reality it's 16 weeks and everyone knows it.

Re: Is Bag and Tag Necessary?
 

2495 built their robot with ~$1000, yet we came up with a way to create a practice bot of sorts with help from the withholding allowance. They are a team of around 12 students and mentors.

Any team is capable of working towards this. Fairness does not come into play with this, I think. I can understand your points though, but I think many, if not most, teams are capable of creating a platform to work on even after bagging their robots.

Re: Is Bag and Tag Necessary?
 

I would be surprised if any team so seamlessly transitions from build season to working exclusively with their practice bot as you suggest. It's certainly an advantage, but building two things as complicated as FRC robots to be identical is about as possible as having two exactly identical thanksgiving meals with the same exact recipes. In many cases, there's a different set of people doing the building or analogous cooking. The two machines will be very similar, but the challenge lies in being realistic about the minor inevitable differences. Last year our team had a competition robot that shot 3 baskets in all year at three events, but a practice bot at home hitting 90% of its shots from the key. It's in no way easy because you have 2 robots.

Building a second robot is an earned advantage by teams. Also, getting rid of bag and tag would prolong the agony of build season until the nights right before tournaments and nobody really wants that to happen. For most teams, the work expands to fill the allotted time, not the other way around.

Re: Is Bag and Tag Necessary?
 

Work expands to fill the time available. We essentially did a double build season in 2010 since we had a later Regional and people were burned out at the end of the season. Students need a date to focus on otherwise they don't have a sense of urgency to complete it by the bag day.

There are advantages to building two robots, which is your incentive to raise more funds to do it.

The bag and tag restriction I find frustrating is the time that the kids really see the issues with the robot is during the competition. They become focused on the issues and their minds are churning on ideas on how to solve the problems and they are motivated. Then the Regional ends and we have to stick it in the bag until the next Regional. But I don't know how to allow build time between Regionals that would be fair to the first time participants at the next Regional. The solution would be to build a 2nd robot to test the changes on at home between Regionals.

Re: Is Bag and Tag Necessary?
 

FIRST is trying to mirror real life situations. If you have a deadline, you work to complete by the deadline, and find ways to work around it (practice robots). This ties into the whole "there are two types of underprivileged teams; the ones who whine about being underprivileged and the ones that work to become privileged". Bag and tag is an integral part of FIRST. It will always be around.

Re: Is Bag and Tag Necessary?
 

Another 'fairness' aspect to consider. If there is one dominate design/strategy shown in week 1, which team will be more likely to be able to change their robot before their event in week 4--the team that typically struggles to build 1 robot in 6 weeks or the team that typically builds a practice robot? I'm not saying things should be fair, but if you do think follow that belief, I'm not sure getting rid of the bag 'n tag is more 'fair'.

Re: Is Bag and Tag Necessary?
 

smart/modular design doesn't hurt-

We designed about 80% of our robot into one device (the last 20% being the drivetrain). Total weight of said device: 27.8 pounds. The only thing we bagged this year was a drivetrain and a bit of a frame, we have a few more weeks to perfect everything else. No practice robot needed (although we did build half of a second frame that we mounted to a wooden drive with no motors)

Re: Is Bag and Tag Necessary?
 

What is your team's objective? Is it to win? Is it to field a robot? Is it to have a good time and maybe get into the eliminations? My point here is that it not every teams enters a robot to win. Those who want to win will realize that they need to be able to iterate and develop and practice in the time between bag and competition. The practice bot is a tool to help these teams iterate and practice. They're not actually putting the practice robot onto the field.

Also, every team can get a practice bot. Our team operates on a 20-30k budget from student dues, sponsorships, and fundraisers. We have 1 engineering mentor, with 2 teacher mentors and 2 college students, and we have a 20 person team. We placed our goal for winning this year, so the team decided to put in the extra effort and time to build the practice bot alongside the competition bot and continue to iterate before our competitions in week 1 and week 3.

It's not hard to do, Just be smart with your resources and plan ahead. Plus having a goal to rally around isn't a bad thing either;)

Re: Is Bag and Tag Necessary?
 

This. Our shooter can come off by loosening two brackets. Although we didn't really plan for modular design, the ability to take off the shooter (weighing 12 lbs) helps considerably. If you want to practice with say, a shooter and you don't have the funds for a full second robot, being able to withhold the major part and place it on say, a kitbot can bring you pretty close to a practice bot in results.

Re: Is Bag and Tag Necessary?
 

The point is that stop build is not really a deadline (only for those that can't afford it). The only thing real-life about it is that people have figured out a way around it. Underprivileged, privileged... not sure how that fits in the FIRST mission. After figuring out how important it is we fund and build 2 robots... it just seems unnecessary.

Re: Is Bag and Tag Necessary?
 

The "fair" way to remove bag and tag would be requiring every team compete in the first weekend of competitions. After the first weekend, teams that registered for Weeks 2-6 would still compete in later events and World Championship, should they qualify. The aforementioned competition requirement would force every team into a 'District' and require many more regionals on the schedule.

Re: Is Bag and Tag Necessary?
 

If they get rid of "stop build" day, I'm never signing up for another event before week 4. Nor will I do much beyond prototyping until I see how the game plays out and what designs other teams have come up with.

Re: Is Bag and Tag Necessary?
 

For your argument, I'd really like to point you over to (the now defunct) team 1771. Team 1771 has always operated on a very low budget, often having to build their robots on plywood. They've also always had very few mentors and students on the team. Yet 1771 has always been a dominating force in the south, and has gotten very far in championships. In 2011, they seeded first in their division, with 6 members at the competition. Team 1771 was literally the definition of limited resources, but that didn't stop them from iterating and designing and using the time between competitions to improve. It doesn't take $50 grand to make 2 robots, it takes smart use of your resources and labor.

Re: Is Bag and Tag Necessary?
 

+1

FIRST is more than the robot... It's about the culture. Believe it or not, we're training the future workforce of the USA and the world. Working under tighter pressure to produce more with less, while maintaining a high quality standard is required for competition on a global scale.

While I see the OP's point, I will disgree that Bag and Tag is unnecessary.

First, I'd like to state that building a complete second robot isn't that expensive, especially if you're getting donated components. The initial higher cost in buying duplicate transmissions and a cRIO (which is dirt cheap at $525 loaded) will be less in future years if you end up reusing the COTS items.

It's not a bag-it-and-forget-it competition. You're allowed to bring a weight-limited sum of parts (R21) to the competition to add to your robot, why stop at Bag and Tag? Watch webcasts of regionals, get inspired, come up with strategy refinements, and add to your robot.

Life isn't fair. Overcome its challenges and learn. I guarantee you the most successful teams had a steep learning curve before they "got it". Understand your constraints and work within them. Learn what your team does well and capitalize on it.

Over the last three years, my team has grown in expertise and skill tremendously. At the same time, we've had funding difficulties, but found ways to make it work. We have also made a firm decision to build two robots every year because that's what it takes for us to field a successful robot and a trained operator team.

I don't see banning use of second robots or eliminating bag and tag to be of any use for this competition and it would only serve to spoil the experience for the tens of thousands of students and mentors.

Re: Is Bag and Tag Necessary?
 

I doubt very many teams have the resources to build more than one robot. Many of the teams I know struggle to find the resources just to buy their kit of parts. Yes there will always be some teams with the money and resources to build two robots, but I expect they are the exception rather than the rule. And, even if they are not, I chose not to worry about what other teams do or do not have anyway.

Our team probably does not have much of a chance to win at nationals, or to even get there except on a luckiest of years when they take all the right gambles. But that is not important. The students have already achieved a lot and benefited from the entire process. Dealing with significant limitations in resources can be a important skill in itself. Going through various design concepts, prototyping, building, and debugging is just as valuable on a simple design that takes advantage of our teams unique strengths and resources, as it might have been on a more complex one that we did not have the resources to build.

Our current robot is relatively modest, and needed to be because of budget and resource limitations. However, it is solid and well thought out. Our team is just as excited over our robot as any team I have seen, and has learned more than I could ever have expected. They will go to regionals and will be very proud of what they have accomplished, and they deserve to be. They have felt the fire of what science and technology at work can do and they are spreading the word at their school and community. With all that going on, who has time to count robots?

Re: Is Bag and Tag Necessary?
 

"Once upon a time, there was a competition called the Fair Robotics Competition..." -Issac Rife, FRC #33

I think Bag and Tag could get dropped in the somewhat distant future based on a number of things (what if the whole country shifted to mostly Districts and required all district events to be held in the first 4 weeks of the season?), but for now let's put aside that.

Yes, there are well funded and well staffed teams that do exist, and total disclaimer: a lot of the incredibly dedicated mentors alumni, and students of teams like that are regular and/or long-time users of this forum. There are also mentors, alumni, and students of teams that are historically understaffed and hyper-conscious of resource management to ensure long-term sustainability of their team(s).

422 is one of those teams, but they still managed to develop some kind of practice platform. The kids and mentors are just dedicated man. They find a way. The day after stop build day you think they would make contact with their families, significant others, maybe catch up on a TV show, but no. Everyone is blowing up my inbox and chat windows... and I love it. No amount of money or other tangible resource can replace the dedication of the team (but if any potential sponsors are reading I'd love to put a price tag on it for you!:D )

I've seen teams with enough money after registration to buy half of a Little Caesar's Pizza find a way onto the field on Saturday afternoon.

Android has an advantage over iOS. The Baltimore Ravens had an advantage over the 49ers. GM has an advantage over Tesla. 1114 has an advantage over 49xx. It's the way it is and the way it should be. Like IKE was trying to say in one of the dozen or so "practice bot morality" threads, FIRST isn't supposed to be fair. It's work. It is hard work. It is a 52 week a year commitment if you want to be the best and it's wrong to lower the ceiling of competition for any reason except safety or something equally crucial.

And people forget that at the end of the day, it's just a game, man. When I have students that end up teaching me a few things every day, I've already won (as cheesy as it sounds). Besides, For Inspiration and Recognition of Winning and Fairness (FIRWF) doesn't really roll off the tongue.

Re: Is Bag and Tag Necessary?
 

I've been thinking about this topic a lot recently. I have heard a lot of similar themes in discussing it with teams and mentors...

Leave the stop build date because...

"We need the rest"

"It ensures all teams have similar amounts of time to complete the competition robot"

Remove the stop build because...

"Teams build practice bots to get around it"

"With 30 lbs of additional parts, almost anything can be brought to the competition"

However, I have come to the realization that there is a much more compelling reason to eliminate stop build day...and it is at the core of FIRST's mission...Inspiration.

Imagine the excitement that teams could build in their schools and local communities prior to a competition if they were actually allowed to demonstrate that robot BEFORE and DURING the competition season. Our teams need this ability to build a fan base and a following. We need students, parents and community partners outside of our teams to get excited about our robots before they get to competition so we have a way to get them to attend.

Teams could show off their robots at prep rallies just before they head off to district or regional competitions just like all the athletic teams in the district.

If we really want to be the "Varsity Sport for the Mind", we need to market ourselves like a varsity sport. I can think of no better time (and I have tried) to show off our robots than right before we head off to competition.

With this simple change, our ability to inspire others would grow immensely.

In my opinion, this benefit outweighs any of the possible downsides, because this is the true mission of FIRST.

Re: Is Bag and Tag Necessary?
 

I agree with this because Team 2594 is a team with low funding an dour robot is also one that has a solid design and intesting was hitting almost every one of its shots at the high goal. All this was possible bacause of the dedication of the students to plan and build out a well planned and tested robot that we can take to competition and be proud of no matter what the results are.

Re: Is Bag and Tag Necessary?
 

Your link is a great post and thread. Thanks. I searched before starting this one but didn't find anything this meaty. People are obviously passionate about this both ways. I think using the word "fair" amped things up and really wasn't what I was after... I was mainly thinking is it "necessary".

I'm totally on board with doing what it takes to achieve your goals no matter what the circumstances. I work tirelessly and endlessly for my FLL and FRC teams. We have made incredible progress in the last several years and will continue to get better. We are blessed with resources to field 2 identical robots. Perhaps it came across differently, but there is absolutely no whining from this camp. We do what it takes to get the job done.

I don't like rules that have loopholes rendering them ineffective to their original purpose. I'm relatively new to FRC and when I first heard about teams building practice robots I thought, really? It's certainly within the rules but honestly it felt like a little sidestep. Within the goals of inspiring students for science and technology I don't see stop build day as helpful. There is still a deadline... choose what week(s) you want it to happen. I like the idea of the districts where everyone has to attend a week 1-3 event. On the other hand, those that want to wait until week 6 to compete, great.

In the end, removing the stop build day will not change the outcome of the regional or national events... the same teams will still be on top. It will simply provide more opportunity for kids to be inspired throughout the competition season at a lower cost for everyone.

Re: Is Bag and Tag Necessary?
 

I would like to see the stop build day actually mean STOP BUILD!!! Let's forget about the extra 30 pounds of prefabricated parts and whatever you finish with on stop build is what you bring to competition. I assume there are 6 weeks of competitions because of the lack of competition fields available, not for a 12 week build season. I don't like the way you can continually improve your robot for 6 more weeks and then add the 30 pounds on competition Thursday.

It's just my opinion,

Mr. B

Re: Is Bag and Tag Necessary?
 

Stop build is still very much a deadline, even for teams that build practice bots. It's not like you can bag a pile of raw materials and spare parts and assemble it on Thursday at the competition. Teams that build two robots still have to finish at least one by stop build day. You have to have that deadline in there or you lose an awful lot of the challenge of the program. Without the deadline, you're going to see new strategies like Sean's suggestion of attending a week 6 regional and not bothering to build anything before you're seen the results of week 1. You only have to look at the Vex Robotics Competition to see this is not the greatest thing if you're trying to encourage innovation and actual engineering problem solving. Vex is great for introducing kids to robotics and getting them some practice with the complexities of building an integrated robot, but there's far far too much temptation to wait around a while and check Youtube so you can make yourself a clone of a proven successful design. I really don't want to see FRC follow that path or we'll lose a lot of what makes it a great program.

Also, I probably couldn't participate in any meaningful way as I can't really afford to absent myself from family life for more than a quarter of the year.

Re: Is Bag and Tag Necessary?
 

I certainly don't like watching competitions with robots that don't even move, or box bots. 6 weeks is already tough for teams to get a robot up and running for most veterans, now imagine what would happen if teams couldn't work on their bots outside of competition. It's already a struggle to get all teams to pass inspection before Friday, now imagine teams frantically trying to fabricate some part on thursday AND pass inspection. It won't be a pretty site.

Re: Is Bag and Tag Necessary?
 

The bag and tag is not only necessary, it's insufficient. FIRST is growing fast that it can't wrap its arms around everything anymore. Bag and tag and 2 day events are designed to make things easier and cheaper, but sacrifices some integrity to the 6 week build season. With open bag hours, witholding allowances, transparent bags, second robots, and constant prototyping and discussion on CD, the build season just doesn't end unless your own team says it does.

Is this an issue of fairness? I don't know, but I think FIRST is experiencing some serious growing pains.

Re: Is Bag and Tag Necessary?
 

You can build 2 robots and make Einstein with a far lower budget than many of you think. Resources aren't just cash, it's the teams' design skill and planning.

A practice robot need not be a full robot. Have a kitbot from last year or anyother working drive base lying around? If you built a modular robot and wisely planned out your witholding allowance you have a fully usable practice bot that will get you plenty of mileage with your drivers.

A practice robot is just another design constraint you add during design. It will cost you almost nothing but time and labor, IF YOU PLAN AHEAD!

Re: Is Bag and Tag Necessary?
 

The bag and tag for me has never sat right. I walked through the pits on check in night at the Virginia regional last year. Lots of robots that were completed or looked like something been removed. No skin off of my back. But a few robots were bare frames. No wheels or electronics. I asked a team member later if that was right. "It doesn't violate the 30lbs withholding rule." and they then added. "It's in the gray area."

As FIRST has grown, teams have been looking at, expanding and using that gray area to play the game in new and exciting ways. But I think it's time for FIRST to take a long hard look at said area. A refinement of the bag and tag rules and perhaps even an official ruling on the practice robots are needed.

Re: Is Bag and Tag Necessary?
 

I don't think the weeks between Stop Build Day and first (usually only) competition are a big help to the teams that show up with box-bots or robots with no chance of passing inspection.

And for the people who are constantly going on about how "life isn't fair": That's not a reason to make it less fair if possible.

Re: Is Bag and Tag Necessary?
 

[CYNIC] As has been said, life isn't fair, so why should the competition be? [/CYNIC] :rolleyes:

Having said that, let me relate a short story. I once worked for a machine design firm. We delivered a $300,000 machine to a customer on the deadline. We then spent 4 months integrating the machine into their environment.

Is this any different from the Bag-And-Tag versus after situation? Not significantly.

This is the first year 1370 has made a practice robot. It has taken us three years of work to gather up the spare electronics and wheels to do it, but we think it will be worth it. We used a donation of materials and another of services to get two "identical" frames cut and welded so that we could make both bots work. Unfortunately, we didn't get enough weldments made, but the 30 lb witholding is our friend. :)

The short form is it's not really a cost issue, it's a resources and partnerships issue. We have a metals distributor that sells materials to us at really low prices. We have a mentor who used to teach welding at our school before anything similar to a vocational program got taken away. The total incremental cost for making twice as many frame pieces as strictly needed was a few additional hours of a mentor's time and a longer teaching opportunity for the students. If you have a local welding shop who could donate an employee for a few hours as a mentor, all of this could be yours, too.

Re: Is Bag and Tag Necessary?
 

In my opinion, the real question isn't whether or not FRC is "fair," but whether or not it matters if it's "fair." That being said, I"m on the fence on this one.

Anyway that's just my 2 cents, also good luck to everyone at regionals

Re: Is Bag and Tag Necessary?
 

I see Bag n Tag as a good thing, to focus the teams on getting the design/build process complete in six weeks.

Our team built a practice drive base in December so that we'd have some experience driving it and be able to test ideas. As it turns out, it is not entirely compatible with our real robot design. Nonetheless, we're going to modify it to support our withheld shooter mechanism (15 lbs) and run it with our withheld cRIO and Talons to improve our score before our week 4 regional.

We still worked up till midnight Tuesday to get the real drive base in the bag.

We are on a very low budget, but we did spend a couple hundred dollars to save us having to tear apart the gearboxes on the real bot to borrow the CIMs and encoders for the practice bot. That would have wasted a couple hours of our practice day.

As for the problem of not having time with family, our entire family is on the team and we're doing the after-season upgrading/testing in our house, so no big deal there.

Re: Is Bag and Tag Necessary?
 

I hate that to be truly competitive in this sport it's now almost required to have a practice robot. The part I really dislike is that we are incurring all these additional costs to have something sitting in a bag, while we continue work on an identical copy. In that regard, bagging is rather pointless, and does little other than imposing additional costs on the teams who do have the means to do a practice robot. You are simply putting yourself at a serious disadvantage if you don't have one. You're buying more time essentially. And the methods and standards by which we work imposes significant significant additional costs and work hours on the team. Yes a practice robot gives a definite advantage, but it also gives A LOT of additional workload. It's not to be taken lightly, and it's not for every team. It's twice the welding hours, twice the COTS parts costs, twice the fundraising to pay for it all, and the additional time investment of development and practice.

Our build season runs from January 5th until March 27th, and it's torture on personal lives. I have over 400 hours into this already. As a team, we have over 5800 people-hours into it this season, and we aren't close to being done yet. It would be nice to have a hard date that says we get to go home and sleep, but we aren't part of a sleeping competition. We can sleep on March 31st after our second regional.

The part I do like though is that it gives more students the opportunity to be a part of the robot wiring and assembly and gives them more opportunities to design, test, iterate, and refine.

Re: Is Bag and Tag Necessary?
 

Yes, Bag and Tag is necessary, purely for my personal sanity. 6 weeks is about all I can take of the build season before I get so far behind other personal and work commitments that I can't catch up. Plus, I need the sleep!

Re: Is Bag and Tag Necessary?
 

People get on their soap boxes pretty quickly when they perceive a whiff of a chance that somebody is complaining about teams with resources. But I think the OP brings up a great point. If we didn't have to bag it after six weeks, we wouldn't need to build a practice robot. It would require less resources to accomplish the same goals. Makes sense to me.

Re: Is Bag and Tag Necessary?
 

This.

Re: Is Bag and Tag Necessary?
 

I think to summarize what Akash and Lil Lavery are saying, in the current system, Stop Build Day is the end of the design process for good/mediocore teams and a definite design freeze for even the very best.

Re: Is Bag and Tag Necessary?
 

One of the things that we have improved on this year is upping our driver training. As the operator last year, the drive team basically drove on bag and tag night, then drove at the regional (Orlando).

For this reason, it is essential for us to be building a second robot, so that we can continue to train our drivers.

Re: Is Bag and Tag Necessary?
 

Our drivers (me being one) haven't gotten a single 'practice' day in years. We don't have time, we build until we are at competition most of the time. Forcing a huge learning curve on me and other drivers at competition.

Re: Is Bag and Tag Necessary?
 

Eight years haven't changed the impact of build season: A classic, spotlighted post.

Re: Is Bag and Tag Necessary?
 

I wish they'd get rid of the withholding allowance altogether. Seriously. In a town as small as mine, finding mentors is difficult, and mentors with kids are almost nonexistent.

I love the competitive aspect of FIRST -- you not only have to build a robot to complete tasks, you have to build it to complete tasks better than everyone else's robots. I love the hard work and the long nights and the drive to always be better than you've been in the past--in design, in build, in fundraising... I love the drive and commitment and...

I have a wife I didn't see for eleven days straight (including Valentine's day). I skipped a nephew's birthday party pre-ship, and because we can withhold, on Saturday I will be missing his going-away party before he ships out for the Navy. One of my good friends is also shipping out (Marines), and I'm going to miss his send-off, too.

FIRST asks a lot from its mentors, and it seems that every year, that amount only ever gets bigger. Maybe it's because of my particular situation--tiny town (3,000 people), tiny school (~750 students K-12), geographic isolation (Southern Tier, with lakes and impassable hills separating most towns)--but a whole crapton of stuff falls on my shoulders, and finding others to share the load is very, very difficult.

I'm not complaining -- like I said, I love it. But if they eliminated Stop Build Day, I'd almost definitely quit.

Re: Is Bag and Tag Necessary?
 

I feel like Mr. Freivald brings up a valid point. For us, the students and many of the mentors, we would love to work for the rest of the year. However, our teacher adviser gets incredibly fatigued by the end of the season; we had to beg him to come in last Sunday. That said, we're incredibly grateful we have someone who is willing to dedicate so much of their time to us. But at the same time, we are already at the limits of how much he is willing to do. For us, a practice bot is near impossible; we would have nowhere to build it or practice with it. The witholding allowance problematic: We are moving to a local sponsor with two mentors and six students of our 76 person team for this weekend but this is a situation much less than ideal.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that there are situations outside the control of how dedicated the students and mentors are. I wouldn't propose eliminating the witholding or practice bots entirely but I think this is an interesting issue to discuss and would like to present other sides to it.

Re: Is Bag and Tag Necessary?
 

I am personally glad that bag day exists. If it didn't I am afraid I would spend every available extra minute working on the robot. I really don't want to do that. Hopefully my family hasn't given up on me to the point where they don't care if I'm ever home or not.

Practice robots don't bother me. We don't build one. Withholding, out-of-bag time (FiM), and two district events give us plenty of practice and opportunity to make the necessary fixes and upgrades. The out-of-bag time (at your own shop) in the week leading up to your next competition is a good middle ground between bag and no-bag IMHO.

Re: Is Bag and Tag Necessary?
 

I believe that if a team contacts FIRST, gives reason and follows direction that FIRST does allow a team to do a demo then rebag. I have seen the bag and tag forms that show it happening.

Re: Is Bag and Tag Necessary?
 

Nothing I'm about to say is going to be said for argument purposes. Just posting my opinion on this issue I've struggled with as well.

I think there's the obvious catch of teams at week 6 competitions having an advantage over teams at week 1 competitions. Yeah, that still happens anyway, between the extra time to fabricate those 30 pounds and being able to watch some matches on TBA and every other reason we could come up with.

But without bag day, teams at week 6 competitions could just as easily decide not to build anything other than a chassis before week 2. It would be stupid because they would have less time, but who needs that when you can already see what works and what doesn't? What the teams that are going to championships are doing? Are they all shooters? Are they all climbers? Oh, they're all climbers! Let's make ours climb too!

As for the practice bot thing, I'll provide an example of my own team. We have very limited resources and even fewer hands to work on our robot. One element of our robot is currently on nothing but an extra chassis. That element will be our thirty pounds. We didn't build a whole second robot. We have our basically-done robot sitting happily in its bag and crate, waiting for our week 2 regional. We will practice with just the chassis and the element. That's all we need.

I guess what I'm trying to say is...for teams who think they need a whole extra bot for practice...think again. Last year, we basically just practiced with a chassis that could knock down a bridge. We won our regional and went to St. Louis - with money, I might add, we begged frantically for in less than three weeks. We scrambled, but we made it. There's something inspiring about a ragtag, previously mediocre team that makes it to the World Championship.

Besides competition - why are we in robotics? I certainly wouldn't have joined if I thought it was like any other sport. You can see sports as unfair too - there's always going to be a better, stronger, faster team. But did they get that way because they were well-funded? Unlikely. Because their team has been around for twenty years? Well, it certainly hasn't helped our high school sports teams. Did they get that way because they worked for it? More likely. Part of why I quit other sports was because of the attitude - that "we're the best team in the world if we win" and "it's not our fault we lost" attitude. I certainly didn't come to robotics to hear more of it.

I joined to learn about science, technology, and engineering. Doing well is a bonus. Sometimes, it doesn't take a second robot or being able to use all $4000 in your budget - it takes determination, a little luck - and maybe a better attitude.

Hope that helps.

Re: Is Bag and Tag Necessary?
 

It's not strictly an advantage to compete in later weeks in a no-bag season. You have more time to build the robot, but so does everybody else. You get softer competition in earlier weeks, so you can win with less.

This is already true to a lesser extent.

Also, that's how it functions in FTC. It's actually kind of strategically interesting to decide what to shoot for according to when you compete, and when you plan to compete after that. I haven't found it to be an issue apart from the fact that the season gets LONG. The need for a break is the only compelling argument I've seen in favor of keeping the bag and tag deadline.

Re: Is Bag and Tag Necessary?
 

Success is iterative and progress is incremental

There have already been quite a few posts that sum up my thoughts on why I think that having stop-build day is important, but I wanted to comment on the classic refrain of "some (maybe a lot) of teams have more resources than us so we can't do X like they can."

Are there teams with way more resources than you? That's a YES for most teams. Is it true that the team with more resources can do more things and is more likely to be successful*? YEP. But that team over there (you know the one I'm talking about, the one that always wins in your region and probably has half-a-dozen practice robots that can fly and shoot 30 discs/second :ahh: ) had, at some point, as many (maybe a little more, maybe a little less) resources as you have now.

They didn't get there overnight. They made a concerted, year-round effort to constantly challenge and improve themselves, incrementally year after year. I will use our pit area as an example because it is illustrative and perhaps less blood-pressure-raising than the usual discussion of robots.

In 2008 we had:
-A robot cart that had wheels. Kinda...

In 2009 we had:
-A very nice and painted robot cart that definitely had wheels.

In 2010 we had:
-A very nice and painted robot cart that definitely had wheels.
-3 very nice tool carts.

In 2011 and 2012 we had:
-A very nice and painted robot cart that definitely had wheels.
-3 very nice tool carts.
-A small Community Outreach display.

In 2013 we will have:
-A very nice and painted robot cart that definitely had wheels.
-3 very nice tool carts.
-A sweet battery charging cart.
-A complete pit area with integrated displays, signs, shelving, and general awesomeness :cool:

We started in 2008 with no engineering support, no support from the BOE (we actually got penalized for missing school to go to our first competition), 11 kids, 4 mentors, and not much more than a NASA grant. Now we have engineering mentors and companies, FANTASTIC support from the BOE (THANK YOU for the soon-to-be practice facility :D ), 36 kids, almost as many mentors, and a budget exceeding $40,000. We didn't get here overnight, nor did any other team. Our journey toward getting an identical practice robot "fully" functional 2 weeks before bag day was just as incremental as our journey toward having an awesome pit. We aren't in the best geographic or demographic location for running a robotics team (something we are working on) but we also aren't in the worst. It will take some teams more time to get to same point as us, some teams less. Some teams will be able to go further than us, some not quite as far. But EVERY team can improve. EVERY team can work year-round to build up the funding, the spare parts, the team-experience necessary to build a practice robot (or something that can suit their needs just as well) but it won't come easy and it won't come fast. Just always keep in mind that every team started from somewhere.

Apologies for the long post,
-Luke

*I'm defining "success" here to refer to robot performance, awards, etc. for the purposes of this post. My personal definition of "success" has much more to do with inspiring your students and your community and I think in that sense every team is already "successful" just by participating in FIRST.

Re: Is Bag and Tag Necessary?
 

I go round and round about this. We don't have a practice bot. We are finally in a place this year where we might be able to afford a 2nd CRio for next year. We have enough extra parts to build at least a 2nd drive bot.

I have to agree with other posters. As a Mentor and teacher I'm tired. We have about 20 students and I am the official mentor and at every meeting beginning to end. I have other adult help but they come and go. I always think I'm going to get other work done but don't. I have to have days off to get caught up and I'm terribly behind now. It will take another week to get caught up on the correcting alone.

By the end of week six, I'm sick of looking at the robot enough that stuffing it in a bag is rather cathartic...:rolleyes:

Re: Is Bag and Tag Necessary?
 

1771's 2008 robot is definitely one of the coolest robots I've ever seen. I'd also like to add that wood is also a great building material for FRC. It is strong and reasonably lightweight when used correctly, and has a long history of successful uses in plenty of other structures. If you go back and look 1771 also used really quality stuff, so its not like their budget forced them to buy the junk they sell at Home Depot. Wood don't get no respect! :cool:

On topic:

I think the strongest argument for the defined build season is Parkinson's Law: "Work expands so as to fill the time available for it's completion." If there was no build season we would all be frantically working on our robots until 4AM on Thursday, and then everyone would be overtired and cranky and nobody would have any fun at the competition. If nobody is having fun, chances are pretty good no one is getting inspired either.

Re: Is Bag and Tag Necessary?
 

I seem to remember a certain Hawaii team that showed up to a regional with Dean Kamen's signature on their bag and tag form since he came to visit before their event.

Re: Is Bag and Tag Necessary?
 

For our team the 6 week build, then bag and tag is much like building a race car and going straight to the Daytona 500. We have generally tested our systems and mostly finished the bot, but are in no manner ready to compete. Who would it hurt if there was was a practice/debugging period following the 6 weeks up to the first regional. Minor debugging and programming could occur durring this period as well as driving and practice. The parameters of such a period could be easily defined and the honor system would apply, just like bag/tag.

Re: Is Bag and Tag Necessary?
 

That's not what I was saying. Please do not attempt to put words in my mouth.

Re: Is Bag and Tag Necessary?
 

Same actually, no offense.

Re: Is Bag and Tag Necessary?
 

1771 was disbanded? :(

They were a pretty awesome team. Here's their robot from last year:

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/27736599/FR...s/IMG_0571.JPG

Re: Is Bag and Tag Necessary?
 

I have been thinking about this since the OP. I think that a MUCH longer build season would serve the purpose and mission of FIRST best of all, while also eliminating a lot of the "unfairness" AND making things more sane and reasonable for all participants.

What if they announced the game in May (or September)? But, unlike VEX, did not have any official competitions until the 6-week competition period, as now?

Here are some of the advantages I see:
- Teams could have time to really carefully analyze and design their robots; do more math, physics and design work. Instead of having to rush that into an insanely short time span.

- Teams could probably attract many more students, including some who are not already 'nerds' but might want to TRY or EXPLORE STEM (we actually have a lot of those students, and we pride ourselves on introducing them to engineering and programming, and inspiring some to continue in those fields), but simply aren't willing to devote their 'entire life' to it for a 6 or 12 week period. Students who also want to play sports, do plays, have a social life, work on their studies or art or whatever. They - and the rest of us - could 'do robotics' just 2 or 3 days a week, and still make a meaningful contribution.

- Ditto for mentors who just don't have the concentrated time available but would still like to help 1 or 2 days/week, or who might have a vacation or funeral or something else scheduled, or arise, during a shorter build season. Or teachers who might happen to have a shorter build season come during finals, or when there are other school obligations.

- There would be time to actually TEACH the newer students things, and then have them practice their skills and build the robot. We find that often, because of the time crunch, the more experienced students and mentors end up doing things, with the newer students just watching, except for the occasional "drill this hole" or "cut this slot". Wiring, especially, tends to be done under a huge rush, so it's not possible for very many students to actually get a substantial amount of hands-on training.

- Same for the analysis/design process. It has to be done in a week or two, so the students who can only come a day or two every week don't get to participate much.

- We would not get as STRESSED, SICK, and otherwise fried. We could pace ourselves and do a MUCH better job educating and motivating the students, build better robots, and have a higher level of competition (without quite so many 'dead on the field' or uncompleted robots, don't you think?).

- It would even out the "unfairness" for teams who compete in week 1 vs week 6. STOP BUILD could be right before the first competition, WITHOUT any 'withholding' or any work at all on the robot after stop build. It could be a HARD 'stop build'. The only advantage later competitors would have would be having watched some matches.

- It would also even out the "unfairness" for teams who have to ship their robot to compete, vs. driving to competitions (as compared to having no 'stop build' at all, as was proposed). EVERYONE would stop at the same time, whether you are in Australia (Hi, 3132!!) or just down the road from your competition venue. Ditto for teams that have to have all sorts of materials shipped in.

- It would allow teams much more flexibility in how they structure their program, how they allocate their time (design for 6 months and build in 3? Design for a month, build for 4, then test and practice for 4? the variations are endless...). It would be more like the real world. I can't think of a situation where a machine this complex has to be designed, built, programmed, tested, and shipped in 6 weeks.

- It would help small teams, who don't have the manpower to have separate sub-teams just for building the field elements, preparing the Chairman's Award submission, building, wiring and programming. Of course, there will always be some inherent inequalities, but this would give the rookies, teams with limited resources, etc. at least a chance.

- It would keep kids engaged in and excited about STEM all year round.

WHAT IS THE DOWNSIDE???? Seriously, why hasn't this been considered?

C.

Re: Is Bag and Tag Necessary?
 

Without parsing all of the posts so far, I'll just say this:

We built 3 robots this year, and we're just hoping we can get the one in the bag to actually work. Well, getting ANY of them to work would be an accomplishment...

Re: Is Bag and Tag Necessary?
 

Did you guys build with another team? If not, why the 2 practice bots?

Re: Is Bag and Tag Necessary?
 

The TechnoKats built three robots too. One was the kit chassis, and was never intended as more than a programming/prototyping testbed. The second one was the "first draft" with lots of rough edges, and was always meant to be the practice 'bot.

The third one is in the bag. It incorporates a lot of lessons learned while building and tweaking the draft version, actually meets the size rules, and is a lot prettier. (It also somehow ended up a lot heavier than expected--perhaps the industrial strength steel hinges on the lexan wheel guard added at the last minute have something to do with that.)

Re: Is Bag and Tag Necessary?
 

My relationship with ship day was always a rather unhealthy love/hate soap opera, but looking back after a few years away from a team, I think the six week build period is a valuable part of the FRC experience.

There are few things we do that are so pure and simple as "build a machine in six weeks: GO!" I think the intensity and pressure is a very valuable character-building experience for students and teachers alike.

And with only three adult mentors, we managed to find a way to build "clone bots" about half the time.

We also learned to not try to "out-awesome" the big guns, but to build a simple, reliable machine that looked good and could do one thing well. After all, you get to play WITH the superstars almost as often as you play against them.

The ultimate expression of that approach was 4334's explanation of their decision to build a feeder bot last year. They knew they'd be competing against the likes of 1114 and 2056, so worked from a strategy of "if you can't beat them, join them". Join them they did and came perhaps just a networking glitch away from a world championship.

Anyway, learning to embrace ship day is all part of the FRC experience. Work with it, and design within your resources... if you aren't happy with your resources, then that's something to work on in the off season.

Jason

Re: Is Bag and Tag Necessary?
 

Please accept my apologies, I did not intend to offend. I should have said "after reading Lavery's and Akash's post, I think." Again, I'm really sorry. I would edit/delete my post but Chief Delphi has that pesky limit on shutting down the edit button.

I maintain my position though. For the very best teams, bag day is the point where no major design changes can be made (except for Pink). The design is, within reason, "locked in" but subject to any numbers of tweaks and improvements.

To a team on the level of my team, bag day is when the design process has to end as we have no practice bot and as I described in an earlier post, limited resources post-season. Would making one bring us to a new level? Yes. Can we make one? Maybe. Hopefully next year we will take on that challenge.

Re: Is Bag and Tag Necessary?
 

Fear not, for their students and mentors now are with 4509, another high school in their area!

from that picture, you can see a beautiful robot, but if you look closely, you can see that it's simple and not made from expensive materials. Every team can be effective.

Re: Is Bag and Tag Necessary?
 

If your goal is to level the playing field, i don't think this would achieve that. i see no "stop build" day resulting in upper/elite teams making MORE gains than lower teams in that extra time.

If your goal is to give the lower teams more time to avoid being a box on wheels and/or going from box on wheels to mildly competitive(even though this means the performance gap widens) then this could work. I could see that this goal would also be tied to avoiding losing rookie/new teams, which I certainly agree is a worthy goal. However, IMO this goal is already achievable by kitbot + WPILibrary + chiefdelphi + 30 lb allowance. If teams can't get a kitbot plus one working mechanism together then FIRST probably needs to do a better job telling rookies to just get on CD and ask for a design to try.

To give you a better idea of where my argument comes from: my team is very small, and so poor that I had to seriously consider whether I could afford putting in these last 2 cents:

-we've never had a practice bot, but we're trying to put one together right now (out of free spare parts)

-I don't think trying to make everything "fair" is a worthy goal.

-I DO support anything attempting to "level the playing field" by bringing up the lower teams. Anything which does this by limiting the upper teams I very strongly dislike. I'm not sure I would be doing this if not for the inspiration of what elite teams are doing.

Re: Is Bag and Tag Necessary?
 

1771 has not really been disbanded. The team number still belongs to North Gwinnett High school. The team has not been able to find a dedicated teacher sponsor since the previous sponsor moved to Lanier High school after 2010 (and has started rookie team 4509 this year). In 2011 and 2012, the team had a different teacher sponsor each year, and neither sponsor was a sponsor in anything but name. This year, no sponsor stepped up, and the administration doesn't seem keen on doing anything anytime soon. It is possible that something may happen in the future, but there are currently no known plans.

In the meantime, At least one North Gwinnett student is helping out 4509, as am I, in a limited role. A 1771 alumni is also helping out with programming in between his college classes. 4509 has examined several of 1771's frames from past years, and based their frame design on those (all done by a student in Inventor), so expect 4509's frame to look similar to a 1771 frame.

Re: Is Bag and Tag Necessary?
 

You say "plywood" like it was a concession to not having money. Plywood was a choice we made every year that determined that was the best material for our design and manufacturing resources.

Additionally, the plywoods we used, baltic birch and okoume were far from inexpensive. This leads to an important point that cost of raw material, (sheet, tube, plate, whatever) is such a small expense in relation to the motors and and control system, that once you've been around for a few years and have a supply of these items, building a second robot is fairly trivial. This is especially true when the majority of the components are being cut by a sponsor.

Re: Is Bag and Tag Necessary?
 

My two cents for what it is worth...
I have been a mentor on a few teams and know how the stop build day affects some of the smaller teams with limited resources and I am curious how many teams out there have difficulties with their robot a day or two before bag it and tag it day. From personal experience, I know that the teams that have I been associated with in this situation sometimes suffered the consequences at their regional because they spent the whole Thursday practice day trying to right their robot and then end up working the bugs out and learning how to operate it during the Qualifying matches on Friday. By the time Saturday comes around and the bugs are worked out, the robots are some of the best out there but by then it is too late as the robot slips into a low ranking that no one notices that they are performing as well as they are...

I have noticed that the teams that are fortunate enough to be able to compete at multiple regionals tend to do much better at their 2nd or third regionals because they had a chance to work their bugs out and the teams that do not have this luxury end up struggling...

Two teams that I have been involved with have Midterm finals during the 6 week build season and we chose not to allow the students to work on the robot during that week as they really need to focus on what is important- their school studies. This tends to make it even harder to make the stop build day but we do abide by it and usually pay the price for being behind the eight ball at the competition but if anything the FRC competitions seem to be a lesson in overcoming adversity more than anything else for some teams...

I understand the importance of deadlines and having worked on a number of years on Engineering projects over the years have found that in the "real world" projects slip due to a number of reasons. In a "US First Perfect World" they are not allowed to slip which makes me wonder if any of Dean's projects ever slip at DEKA.

One additional thought is that if teams were allowed to work on their robot right up until their competitions, (much like a race car team does) the quality of the robots would most likely be better.

Re: Is Bag and Tag Necessary?
 

I agree with this 100%. FRC should show a more realistic view of the engineering process with brainstorming, designing, planning, prototyping etc. getting more than a week or two before the need to "just build it" takes over.

There should definitely be a deadline for stopping build otherwise teams will dawdle. But why not a 12 week build? Six is nuts and takes a lot of my personal time and frankly too much of my work time away. Many of us smaller teams do not have the mentor resources to spread the pain, either.

Re: Is Bag and Tag Necessary?
 

I'm sorry, but this can't possibly be more wrong. Yes, six weeks is a short period. Yes, more time would be wonderful. But where's the challenge in that? If you execute it correctly, six weeks can easily fit the full engineering process. You just have to set deadlines AND STICK TO THEM.
As well, there is no restriction on what you do during off season to solve the "engineering process" problem. There are many things that generally don't change season to season. You know that your robot will have to drive. You know that, given FIRST history, there will be some sort of object to manipulate. So prototype and research whatever you can in the off season, and get an accelerated start when season comes around.

As for your statement "Six is nuts and takes a lot of my personal time", why would 12 weeks take any less time? If anything, I'd expect it would take about double the amount of time...

Re: Is Bag and Tag Necessary?
 

Quite frankly, it'll now take 12 weeks of your personal time and work time.
Parkinson's Law: Work expands to fill time allotted.
Murphy's Corollary to Parkinson's Law: And then some.

For many years, this is actually what the rule was, or pretty close to it. Well, sort of. The amount of extra parts was unlimited for at least some of the time. Didn't stop some teams from bringing in raw material and completely rebuilding (or in some cases building) their robots. Is what they finished with on ship date what they brought to competition? Yes. Is it what they started competing with? No... because stuff was added. Stuff that showed up in raw material form.

Re: Is Bag and Tag Necessary?
 

6 weeks X 10 hours per week with students = 60 hours total.

Less than one work week where I live. Hardly time for a full engineering cycle (maybe we're just slow in Silicon Valley). Sure, this does not include the extra time mentors spend on our own, but this is the time we have to teach and mentor the kids. I guess if we told our students to forget their homework (who needs AP Calc or Physics anyway), skip sports and other activities we could have them for more time, but we chose not to.

We do a LOT of prep in the off season. But outside the drive base (which may or may not be the same YoY) there is only so much you can really do. And the kids tend to burn out from the build season and are a lot less interested in off-season work since they know what is coming.

So I guess the fact that we have a competition robot in the bag, and a practice robot within 4 hours of being ready run means we don't know how to MAKE SCHEDULES AND STICK TO THEM, huh?

After 25 years of developing products and running teams, I'm pretty well versed as to when proper design does not fit the schedule. Yeah, we made our schedule, but it did not represent good engineering practices by any means. You can't do that in 60 hours.

Re: Is Bag and Tag Necessary?
 

10 hours a week? The last six days of build, we put in 100...

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I fully agree. 60 hours is nowhere near enough. How do you manage to schedule so little time? Do you meet only during school or something? Many teams I know put in almost ten hours on Saturday alone.

Re: Is Bag and Tag Necessary?
 

Lets be honest, A six week build is not reality, it's reality TV. Similar to the Biker Build Off. To say that the schedule is what makes this challanging and valuable is not fully accurate IMO. If I was 16 years old and thought my Engineering carreer would be like working with my hair on fire for the next 30 years, I might rethink some decisions.

Re: Is Bag and Tag Necessary?
 

True fact of truth: If the build season was any longer, the CyberCards would be minus one mentor.
That wouldn't be good, since 1-1=0.

The six-week build isn't meant to be real, it's meant to simulate real. It's meant to create urgency, it's meant to create challenge, it's meant to create fun. Think of what we learn - prioritizing, scheduling, time management, streamlining - that are all functions of the six-week build.

I don't think any robotics student member thinks that a build season is just like work any more than doing page 365, problems 10-24 Even is just like being a mathematician.

Re: Is Bag and Tag Necessary?
 

As a 16 year old who has been working with his hair on fire for the past 7 weeks, I'm glad the build season isn't longer. At first glance, one would say "Hey, look, we have more time to accomplish the same task, it'll be easier on us", however they forget about the rest of the teams. The ones who will use every last minute given to them to make sure their robots are near perfect in performance and their drivers have had as much practice time as possible. While you do the same thing as last year in more time, they'll do more things than last year in the same amount of time you do what you normally do. The entire metagame would change to teams who worked at a slower and easier pace during the longer build season, and teams who had a robot finished in 6 weeks, have had 6 more weeks to practice and iterate, and then the time between bag and tag and competition to work with their practice bot.

I know if I had to go through a longer build season, I'd want to use every second of it to get the most competitive advantage I can. I also know that if build season were longer, I probably wouldn't be in FRC, because working with my hair on fire for 6 weeks is bad enough, working longer with my hair on fire to keep up with the competition is worse. I'm a kid in high school. I can learn to juggle schoolwork and robotics for the first 6 weeks of the year. But when it starts getting longer, my time becomes thinner and thinner, something I can't work with.


TL;DR - A longer build season will just mean more time working your butt off to stay competitive.

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We don't set our goal as victory at all cost. We know from the start to win you need to have a durable machine that does it all. 10, 12 weeks won't make us into that team right now. We set goals and try to fulfill them as close to 100% as possible. This year our goals were a 10 point hang an accurate shooter with targeting and speed control and a direct drive Mecanum chassis all assembled into a durable, dependable package. We have achieved this at 90% and are happy with the results. There are certainly kids in the group that don't understand gyro programming, encoders and accelerometers. G-Code , solidworks or manual machining, powder coating, anodizing or waterjet cutting, material selection and fabrication, welding , forming , etc. etc. etc. My goal as the only manufacturing mentor on our team is to share knowledge from real life experience. This is like teaching calc II in 6 weeks and giving the kids one test. All in all it's still great fun and fulfilling to most involved, however great things can be made better.

Re: Is Bag and Tag Necessary?
 

Teaching students should take place in the offseason. Applying the skills learned is what the real season is for. Like you said, trying to teach Calculus in 6 weeks and then giving students a test on it will work out terribly. However teaching them Calculus in an expanded and focused time period and then testing them for 6 weeks works.

Re: Is Bag and Tag Necessary?
 

Boom. Now I know what we've been doing wrong. Thanks for posting this!

Re: Is Bag and Tag Necessary?
 

I am sure we all know or have one HS student. Trying to keep the bulk of them involved in a year round program is very difficult. The majority of these kids are super streched for time and another long term commitment isn't realistic. I am sure many teams don't have the luxury of well developed off season programs. learning in the offseason does work, this is what provided us with the tools and knowledge necessary for the Mecunum drive. We didn't start at zero on week 1. However the relatively small offseason group widens the gap with the in season group creating an inefficient learning environment. Resulting in the smaller group shouldering much of the build season load. Extending the build season will not change the competitive dynamic of the game as much as the opportunity for less experienced team members to learn.

Re: Is Bag and Tag Necessary?
 

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink. If you're having difficulty keeping them interested year round, then keeping them interested for a quarter-year build season doesn't sound any easier. Also, 12 weeks of build would mean that your smaller group shouldering more build season load over a longer time. Keeping a majority of the people interested and doing something, anything productive, is always going to be a struggle. You'll quickly figure out what students are genuinely interested in learning more and what students are simply there for the "fun". One of the best ways to increase the participation in off season is to make the learning fun. Off season doesn't necessarily have to be as intense as build season, and even meeting once or twice a week would be sufficient. Have the students learn by doing miniature build projects or even virtual "build" projects (Read: CAD).

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We use VEX as offseason (September - December) encouragement. Students still get the concepts of game strategies, robot design, object manipulation, gear ratios, etc. in a controlled, safe, easily grasped and immediately gratifying way. If we have the time/personpower/resources, we also throw in a larger-scale project as well.
We do this on Wednesdays, 6-8p, with one adult and 10-20 students (some come after school to work in the lab as well).

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Let me preface this by stating this is our second year (4134). Our school district is a urban central school struggling to meet the needs of a very diverse student body.

We ran a post season group last year that built and thoroughly tested the drive system we used this year. It was a very casual group that met 1-2 times per week until the end of the regular school year. Kids were not pressured to attend and we had some good laughs and alot of learning. The curve was much longer and we were dealing with one task.

Not all stundent want to be engineers this does not mean they are not interested and shouldn't be included. We have very involved students all the way to very casual. We have a fundraising group, an art group and CAD group. Due to the FIRST program at our school 2 new regular classes were added this year, SolidWorks and 101 robotics that uses the Lego platform with Labview programming. The FRC group bought the district the programming license.

We also have a deal in the works with the City Rec. department to provide the same Lego program to youth groups throughout the summer. This group will be led by studentds from the club and class.

What does this have to do with extending the build season 2 weeks for testing and debugging as I originally suggested?

Re: Is Bag and Tag Necessary?
 

Build season is actually four weeks long. The last two weeks are for testing and debugging.
Unfortunately, most teams don't fully take advantage of that schedule.

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You Win