Bag & tag mistake
 

Another team in the city is quitting joining the regional event cause they had a miscommunication on the rules. Apparently they wont be competing due to their mentor thought your allowed to continue to assemble and not construct after stop build day. So they are quitting due to the fact that they broke a rule. I was just wondering what your guys opinion are on this topic. Should they still compete or just not compete this year.

Re: Bag & tag mistake
 

We made a similar error several years ago, misreading the rules regarding bag and tag in Michigan (I think). We actually spent about 6 hours working on the actual robot post BnT. When we brought it to the competition, we worked it out with the judges, and we were assessed a time penalty consistent with the amount of time we had spent on the robot outside of the allowed time. We just left it bagged in the pit until the time was up. It of course messed us up, but we still got to compete. Have them contact the regional event staff to have a conversation with the judges. FIRST is all about fairness, but it's also all about opportunity and support. I think they might find some help if they are straightforward with the judges about their situation.

Re: Bag & tag mistake
 

Out of curiosity what is the difference between 'assemble' and 'construct'?

Re: Bag & tag mistake
 

Assemble means to put it together while constructs mean to make a new piece

Re: Bag & tag mistake
 

It's an unfortunate mistake, but it would be more unfortunate to bar students from the experience over it. Contact FIRST for an absolute ruling.

Re: Bag & tag mistake
 

Did they or did they not BnT their robot at midnight? If what they were doing would fall within the withholding allowance (30lbs of fabricated parts), I don't see a problem. Of course, if they just didn't bag the robot, then that's another issue and I'd contact the event judges. I don't think FIRST would totally disqualify the team, the time penalty seems fairer and better in that situation.

Re: Bag & tag mistake
 

Before making any decisions, they should contact their regional director and FIRST. For Waco, I think the regional director is Patrick Felty (pfelty@usfirst.org). FIRST should be contacted at frcteams@usfirst.org.

I would also recommend they bag and tag their robot immediately. As mentioned above, there may be something that can be worked out.

Re: Bag & tag mistake
 

They need to speak to their regional director immediately. Since the manual doesn't include procedures for this contingency, FIRST needs to be made aware, so that it can devise a fair resolution, advise the officials at the event how to handle the situation, and take equivalent steps elsewhere if it happens again.

If the things that were illegally assembled can be restored to the state they were in at the end of the build period, I don't see any reason to withdraw. After all, they're already going to the trouble of doing penance for their sins—I don't think they're likely to abuse FIRST's (presumed) magnanimity.

Note that the ruling should also be announced to the other teams. Given that they may already know the team was in violation, they need to be made aware that the violation was corrected to FIRST's satisfaction. (Failing to do this could diminish their confidence in the administration of the rules.)

Re: Bag & tag mistake
 

I see absolutely no reason they shouldn't be able to compete because of a simple mistake such as this. They should stop working on there robot immediately and worst case the judges or FIRST may asses a time penalty or ask them to dissemble any parts they put together after stop build day and reassemble them at the event, which with other teams help would be more than possible for any robot. Please have the team contact FIRST HQ or there regional director about there situation and im sure they will be able to find a solution that allows them to still compete.

Re: Bag & tag mistake
 

It's also worth mentioning that, regardless of what happens with the FIRST ruling, teams have built robots entirely from scratch at a competition before. (Some even in the days before the kitbot). This has happened primarily due to shipping issues, but in the unlikely event that the official ruling on the situation does not allow them to bring their robot to the event in any form, it doesn't necessarily preclude them from competing.

Re: Bag & tag mistake
 

The team must call FIRST HQ as soon as possible. None of us want to see a team drop out over a mistake but HQ must be made aware of the exact details. I can't promise anything but there may be an alternative that would allow them to still compete. Make the call tomorrow, 9AM eastern time.

Re: Bag & tag mistake
 

Absolutely they should compete. Mistakes can be fixed. What has been done in error can be repaired in contrition. Etc. Etc.

An honest error should not prevent all of their hard work up until Bag Day from being on display. The stuff between then and now is (of course) negotiable.

Re: Bag & tag mistake
 

Please, please contact FIRST. They can work something out. It's about the experience, and it was a mistake. Don't ruin a whole season.

Re: Bag & tag mistake
 

What regional is the team going to? Waco's smack in the middle of Texas, so any team near you could've ended up at Lone Star, Dallas, or Alamo. I ask because I know the Regional Director for Lone Star, and she's a pretty strong advocate for rookies. If the team is going to Lone Star and gets in touch with her, I'm certain she'll work something out so they can compete.

Re: Bag & tag mistake
 

Kudos to mentors and team for being responsible for their mistake. I am proud and happy to see this many positive responses. Yes, they need to contact regional director and see.

Honesty and Integrity is the key to success. We are sophomore team this season, so far at least half a dozen times I have explained to adults (of course they are all new to FRC) that we don't bag-n-tag in presence of a FIRST monitor, its done in a good faith. If I don't teach my team to be honest, I am a failure!

Re: Bag & tag mistake
 

safig,
Have you been able to get through to the team in question?

Re: Bag & tag mistake
 

I would just say $@#$@#$@#$@# it. They made a mistake but not competing is just stupid. It would also just be unfair to the students.

Re: Bag & tag mistake
 

If they do have to take a time penalty, I know that my team, nice as we are, would do the same. We bagged our robot well on time around 6:30, but just because they limit their robot to being unbagged until a certain time if that happens, our team would not unbag until they could as well. Just imagine if you got the entire regional to back up the rookies and take the penalty that they get. JMHO.

Re: Bag & tag mistake
 

I wonder why?:D

Re: Bag & tag mistake
 

Also it should be noted that the team will not have the registration fee refunded. That alone should be enough to call FIRST and tell them what happened. I dont think that the penalty will be death.

Re: Bag & tag mistake
 

Why? To protest against something? To make them feel better?

Re: Bag & tag mistake
 

To Garten...
I have to agree with Tristan... I know you feel like you want to be nice but remember that this will call attention to this team and will put peer pressure on other teams that need those extra hours BECAUSE they put their robot in the bag on bag day.

I think a better thing to do would be to have some team members go to them and ask what they can do to make the shorter time more productive for them. Help them get ready.

You can offer all the help they can use ... get your robot done...and inspected so you can devote time to helping them get theirs ready to go.

If you all sit around waiting... when this team unbags you will will all be unbagging and no one will be available to help them.

The other reason not to do this would be the extra strain you will put on your inspectors... less time to do inspections... all crowded into the end of the day... not good...

Re: Bag & tag mistake
 

Yah, under no circumstance should a team not get to participate in one of the greatest weekends of the year just because they didn't understand something. There's enough I don't understand that I don't want to get penalized for it. I honestly don't think any team would mind having a rookie team that has an advantage of a few short hours.

Re: Bag & tag mistake
 

That's not to say that I think they should or shouldn't get penalized, but I don't think many (if any) would object either way.

Re: Bag & tag mistake
 

Now if we follow the rules to the letter (this is "real life") then they should not be allowed to continue this year. Would it serve that team or for that matter be in the best interests of FIRST. Not really so just let the team in question come and play and add just rack up some life time experience.

Yet another reason to review bag and tag and is it really needed?

Re: Bag & tag mistake
 

If the team is/was going to Houston then 192 would be willing to help build a pit robot. We have shipped our stuff already so they would have to bring their COTS and KOP parts. If needed maybe another team could bring a spare frame kit. It would not be the first time and 192 and others would be willing to help.

Re: Bag & tag mistake
 

Oh the numbers of pit robots I have seen built at Lone Star.... I wish there was an update on this situation so we could all make plans to help or not as necessary.

Re: Bag & tag mistake
 

I think this is a simple mistake that can be rectified. It would have been simple enough for them to have lied by falsifying the bag form. That honesty should be recognized but there should also be a consequence for the mistake.

Leave it up to the regional director and FIRST. Then we can help them as needed at the competition.

Re: Bag & tag mistake
 

okay so apparently the team made a team decision saying they don't want to continue cause they had their hands on the robot for 3 days and they aren't amazing. I really which this team could compete but they did a team decision. UNLESS we use the power of the internet and turn that decision around. (the team were talking about which isn't the 2950- the devastators, or the metallic clouds and are the only other team in Waco... SHH I didn't say anything) :)

Re: Bag & tag mistake
 

First: Why is it necessary to try to hint at what team it is? It feels a little juvenile as if you are trying to ostracize them, especially with the "SHH I didn't say anything" part. (I could be reading into it wrong though, and if I am, I apologize)

Second: Passing up a regional because the robot isn't "awesome" is not what FIRST is about. They should still try to work something out with FIRST. It isn't really about the competition -- it's about the teams and inspiration. Even if nothing can be worked out with FIRST (which I doubt), as others said, they can build a bot at the competition. Someone paid that $5000 entry fee, and I would hope that money isn't completely wasted. If all else fails, they should still go to the event. It's worth it.

With that said, I suspect this thread is not going to make any changes as the point of contact does not seem to be someone who is a credible source, nor someone who is actually in contact with the team. The tone seems to be leaning towards "I heard this team didn't bag and I'm going to go tell people about it but dodge around the topic to make it seem like I am not gossiping". Again, I apologize profusely if I read this wrong, but the diction in the posts tells me otherwise.

EDIT: I apologize -- I probably did read this wrong. I was just frustrated at all of the dodging in the post

Re: Bag & tag mistake
 

He's not ostracizing them, I think he's trying to hint at the team so people can reach out directly to the team instead of going to through a 3rd party source (him).

Re: Bag & tag mistake
 

I put the Lone Star RD on the trail of this, cause I was worried it was a Lone Star team. She's called some people and says a mentor from a sister team in the area is going to talk with the team. They're registered for the Dallas regional, so there's still a bit of time for this all to play out the right way.

Re: Bag & tag mistake
 

With the state of defense this year, even if the only thing your robot can do is drive around it's going to be far from useless.

Re: Bag & tag mistake
 

If the team has 60 inches of PVC x2 and duct tape they can make a shield that would make them attractive to almost any alliance. No doubt they could do this Thursday.