Chief Delphi - What we learned from week 1

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- - What we learned from week 1 (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=114571)

Jaxom

03-03-2013 13:47

Re: What we learned from week 1

1 Attachment(s)

Quote:

Originally Posted by EricH (Post 1242788)

With all due respect, you're thinking inside the box. There are teams that may be able to get over 84" defenders by using other methods than the typical shooter.

That's me....I rarely see outside of the box. Do you have an example of something that keeps high accuracy combined with the appropriate geometry? Edit: I just realized that I didn't specify I've been talking about "park and shoot" full-courters. Forcing them to move & reaim won't STOP them from scoring but it will slow them down enough to make them no more effective than a fast under-the-pyramid shooter. Anyone that builds an automated track/aim/fire bot that can score while moving isn't easily blockable. It's also beyond the capabilities of all but a handful of teams. And it will be very exciting to watch the bot that proves me wrong.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian Ha (Post 1242796)

If you have the time to see, a way to beat the 84 inch tall blocker robots is to do exactly what 326 did, the super blah blah blah eagles.

I looked at the quarterfinals, and see what you mean. However...their shooter is still exiting at what, about 50"-55"? I couldn't tell for sure, but that's what it looked like their lineup for autonomous put them at when comparing to the 2nd pyramid bar. And since it's still towards the middle of the bot, I don't see how it's that much further back from more "typical" shooters. So for those of you that have seen 326 in person....how would they have done against this contraption we put on our first-match alliance partner 4102 on Friday, to block 2468? I'm asking, not arguing; like I said, I'm pretty much an in-the-box guy.

As an aside -- it looked like 326 has a big open groove in the middle. Is that intended for climbing? That's too bad they fell over in Q1; rotten way to lose.

Akash Rastogi

03-03-2013 13:57

Re: What we learned from week 1

Quote:

Originally Posted by sircedric4 (Post 1242696)

I think you're underestimating what a 50 point climber (climb + dump) can accomplish with a team who is a top notch shooter.

Yes these climbers and dumpers can be beaten with two solid shooters, but it all depends on the full alliance.

jmiller48167

03-03-2013 14:01

Re: What we learned from week 1

[quote=dtengineering;1242790]That is the single best camera angle that I've ever seen for an FRC video. It's better than the live camera operators at worlds... you can see EVERYTHING. It's just like being there, but with the added benefit of being able to rewind and rewatch parts that you missed.

Whoever mounted that camera... well done

FRC 2337 uses a GoPro camera mounted next to the scorpion box on an umbrella pole. Clint Bolinger start doing this last year during the off season as a test bed. Nice work Clint as usual.

EricDrost

03-03-2013 14:09

Re: What we learned from week 1

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akash Rastogi (Post 1242837)

I'd rather have two good shooters than a climber and a shooter. Climbers often lack autonomous and top out at around 50 points. That's easily outscored by a robot that does autonomous and hangs for 10. It only requires two loads of discs, a number that's easily achievable.

Also, climbers (from what I've seen) tend to be less reliable.

Alexa Stott

03-03-2013 14:12

Re: What we learned from week 1

Quote:

Originally Posted by sircedric4 (Post 1242696)

I learned a lot this weekend and all of it just makes me sick to my stomach. Looks like this year will be a very good year for lessons learned for our team bible.

1) The GDC did an awesome job this year building a trap. Let's call the game Ultimate Ascent and introduce this awesome pyramid and impossible top target and then it turns out to be a waste of a season to defeat the obstacle. We and only a few others conquered the very difficult only to watch EVERYONE (hyperbole!) outscore our top end.

We have this awesome climber and dumper and I am seriously thinking about scrapping the whole thing and bolting a quick 3 day robot shooter, human fed device and quick ram the bar 10 pointer to the robot at our one and only regional.

2) Autonomous and frisbee throwing is perhaps the easiest I have ever seen it when it comes to scoring pieces. This is a year that experience actually worked against us. There has never been a scoring game with such consistent pieces, so one lesson learned is always build a game piece scorer immediately before even trying to determine your strategy.

Congratulations all teams of FRC for bringing some good scoring to the game and I guess it will only get better from here for you frisbee throwers.

I could go on but I am just gonna try and reconcile what I saw this weekend with how we saw the games going and determine what we are gonna do. Honestly we are so tired after such an exhausting build season, that I suspect we will just "run what we brung" and we will be the cool looking climber that does contribute consistently. I know that will earn us a spot on an alliance, but it really is disappointing to take the road less traveled and find everyone else at the destination when you get there.

The journey this year will hopefully be worth it since we will definitely have a lot of lessons learned. This year the students and I get to deal with conquering the impossible and that awesome feeling, and then we get to learn how to deal with disappointment when everyone and their mother outscores with "easier" robots.

(PS. I am not trivializing the "easier" robots before you get all in a hissy, I know all those were built in the same 6 week vacuum we were. But shooters have been done for years and there was a 3 day robot, so frisbee throwers were easier to get a base scorer.) :-)

Sorry, but the smiley face at the end of your post doesn't make it any less offensive to all the teams that worked their butt off (same as you) to build their effective frisbee shooters and 10 point climbers.

NotaJoke

03-03-2013 14:15

Re: What we learned from week 1

WAY too much time was wasted lining up, even for some members of winning alliances. This might change in later weeks, but the teams that carried victory were the once that took no time to line up, and simply drove into the pyramid to line up for shooting, or into the alliance wall for loading.

Few teams can floor load well. 'HOT arms' dominated this weekend. Also, floor loading isn't necessary for victory (but it can speed up cycle times considerably.)

There is no excuse for not 10 point hanging. Not hanging lost many teams many matches this weekend.

Crazy high penalty points can all be avoided by smarter maneuverability. Avoid the enemy pyramid at all cost, either by ducking under it, or hugging the side of the wall. EDIT: And not defending a robot when they clearly can't or shouldn't be defended (loading zone!)

Most Linear shooters are capable of full court scoring. Be prepared to defend it even if you haven't seen it from a robot earlier in the tournament. While short robots are nice for avoiding penalties, there should never be an alliance of three short robots. Edit: If there is, tape something tall to one of them ;)

Most importantly: Never leave a robot off your pick list because they are 'too good'. Sometimes even the best of robots can slip past the scouts of earlier seeds, and even be available as third robots. Edit: I'm talking about you; 910!

EDIT: A top heavy robot is a fallen over robot. I won't feel bad for you when your robot falls over if you designed it to fall over, no offense intended.

Also the impact of 'Robot in 3 Days' is very clear even at week one. A huge thanks to the guys who thought of it/put in the effort to actually do it! You're changing the face of FIRST, and making every match that much more exciting.

Travis Hoffman

03-03-2013 14:28

Re: What we learned from week 1

Quote:

Originally Posted by pfreivald (Post 1242789)

Defense is every bit as big as I expected it to be!

Especially if there's a "nuclear reactor" in your alliance partner's drivetrain. I did so enjoy 48's alliance with 1126 and 145. :)

Dr. Shocker

03-03-2013 14:37

Re: What we learned from week 1

I think we all learned from team 48 that if you're going to climb, you can't waste any time doing it.

rick.oliver

03-03-2013 14:43

Re: What we learned from week 1

Quote:

Originally Posted by Travis Hoffman (Post 1242859)

Especially if there's a "nuclear reactor" in your alliance partner's drivetrain. I did so enjoy 48's alliance with 1126 and 145. :)

Having run with both 48 and 1126 when I coached 1038, I really enjoyed watching them compete and I have a link to 145, too. FLR elimination rounds were great fun. You guys showed us the tremendous value of defense in this game. Many thanks.

Look forward to seeing 48 at QCR and Crossroads later this season. All the best to 48, 1126 and 145. Not taking anything away from the Champions; it was a great finals.

Andrew Zeller

03-03-2013 14:46

Re: What we learned from week 1

Quote:

Originally Posted by NotaJoke (Post 1242852)

EDIT: A top heavy robot is a fallen over robot. I won't feel bad for you when your robot falls over if you designed it to fall over, no offense intended.

http://youtu.be/C8Ftc_M-n6I?t=29s That was not a joke.

Mike Norton

03-03-2013 14:54

Re: What we learned from week 1

Quote:

We proved that with two good shooter and a good climber you will do well. We knock off the 2nd rank team and the 3rd rank team to make it to the finals. Those last 30 to 50 points are very valuable. If everyone on your team can score 50 points that would be 150 points.

So every robot has it place. We made a climber but do not tell others because they made a shooter it was easier to do. I thought it was easy to build a climber.

Side note we did well do to our new PTO our students built this year. we only used 4 CIMs motors. Two on each PTO. When we switched over to climb we used all four CIMs. Plenty of power to climb fast. Our fastest time to the top was 25 seconds.

jwallace15

03-03-2013 14:56

Re: What we learned from week 1

1. A lot of teams are using mechanum.
2. Not climbing can hurt you (already said by NotaJoke).
3. It's going to be hard to focus a camera through the netting, and not being able to get close to the field to take pictures will prove to be difficult.
4. Our center of gravity + the speed of our drivetrain = a lot of wheelies.
5. Watch out for flying frisbees.
6. Robots WILL get stuck in the pyramid (it took volunteers almost 5 minutes to get a robot down once).
7. Big sheets of lexan make for great noisemakers in the stands.

EricDrost

03-03-2013 15:09

Re: What we learned from week 1

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Norton (Post 1242871)

I agree those 30 to 50 points are valuable, but a captain and first pick shooter can each beat 50 points and a second pick shooter can beat 30 points.

Our alliance in Palmetto hit 166 points without a single climb above 10 points.

What I'm getting at is, climbing alone puts a very beatable ceiling on your score.

pfreivald

03-03-2013 15:12

Re: What we learned from week 1

Quote:

Originally Posted by Travis Hoffman (Post 1242859)

Especially if there's a "nuclear reactor" in your alliance partner's drivetrain. I did so enjoy 48's alliance with 1126 and 145. :)

Amen to that. 1126's suddenly improved drivetrain was quite the shocker, and so very, very well played. (Pardon me while I sob uncontrollably for a few minutes).

I do have to say, though, that 48's driver needs an award for the ballsiest defense I've ever seen in an FRC match ever--totally epic driving, that was!

Akash Rastogi

03-03-2013 15:18

Re: What we learned from week 1

Quote:

Originally Posted by EricDrost (Post 1242880)

What I'm getting at is, climbing alone puts a very beatable ceiling on your score.

Agreed, my post was more to tell them that the right alliance can still utilize a climbing dumper very effectively. It is by no means a locked win like some teams thought it would be.

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