Predictions Week 3: Creating Flow
 

If variety is the spice of life, Ultimate Ascent is one spicy dish. The 2013 FRC challenge has produced far more strategic and design variety than any game since 2004. While slight differences in features led to different strategic and tactical approaches to many previous games, there's been a great deal of homogenization in FRC in recent years. Generally speaking, there haven't been more than two or three "classes" of common robots since the start of the 3v3 era. 2013, however, already has at least four distinguishable classes, with a multitude of sub-sets of each; pyramid shooters (with and without ground loading or the ability to move underneath the pyramid), full court shooters (tall and short), defenders (shot blockers, lane cloggers, and under pyramid), and climbers (20, 30, and dumpers).

In large part, it's because "do everything" bots simply aren't plausible for the vast majority of the FRC population this season, even counting the FRC royalty. From 2008-2012, building a robot capable of all the game functions was well within the reach of a very large portion of veteran teams. And where sacrifice was required, it was relatively minor. For instance, a team might forgo travelling under the tunnel in 2010 in favor of a hanging mechanism. 2013 is a beast of a different nature, with wildly differing tasks that require significant effort to accomplish in a satisfactory manner. Even the top tier teams have aspects they completely neglected to pursue, and mechanisms that aren't as consistent as we've come to expect. How many top tier teams had 30-pt climbing mechanisms that never saw action at their first event?

This increase in the variety of robot is leading to a plethora of different alliance structures and strategies. While teams typically stick within the style of play that develops at their event, that style varies dramatically depending on the quantities and effectiveness of particular types of robots. Northern Lights was all about full court shooters, as a number of top flight teams were draining shots from the opposite corner. If you were to bring that up with a competitor at most other events this weekend (save perhaps Waterford), it would differ tremendously from their experience. Some alliances are all about run-and-gun, while others try to slow the pace to emphasize autonomous and the end game. It will be interesting to see how much these strategies converge or diverge as the season progresses, and how each field at Championship takes its own personality depending on its demographics. Ultimate Ascent is shaping up to be one of the most dynamic and interesting games in recent memory.


Bullet Points:

• A popular opinion around Chief Delphi is that this season is great for upsets. The statistical accuracy of that sentiment is contentious, though. It depends very much on how you define your criteria. In 2012, the #1 seed won 43 regionals/districts (64.2%). So far in 2013, the #1 seed has won 11 regionals/districts (57.9%). The mean winning alliance seed in 2012 was 2.014, this year it's 2.737. There's movement towards the underdogs, but it's not huge. If you evaluate it based on which seed wins each elimination series, the difference is even less. In 2012, the higher seeded alliance won 70.0% of the time. This season, the higher seed is winning 67.4% of elimination series. Only time will tell if the variations here are just noise, or if Ultimate Ascent does (slightly) favor the underdog compared to Rebound Rumble.
  note: All this data was compiled before the results from Israel were in.
• An interesting fact emerged as that data was being compiled. Life's not easy as a member of the #2 alliance. Not only has the #2 only once this season (Israel), but when #2 meets #3 in the semi-finals, #3 actually holds in the advantage over the past two seasons. #2 and #3 have split eight meetings this year, but #3 won 23 of 39 meetings last year.
• Using the #1 seed winning percentage alone is a flawed way to evaluate the parity of elimination matches. 2005 was the sole year of 3v3 competition that didn't feature the serpentine draft, and thus was obviously very difficult for underdog alliances to leave with a victory. Yet, only 50% of regionals ended with the #1 alliance taking home banners. Why? The #2 alliance took home 12 of the 30 regional wins, and the 5th-8th alliances went completely empty handed.
• The Detroit Red Wings popularized a forechecking scheme known as the "left wing lock" in the NHL. While nothing like what's being employed in FRC, the term fits a popular strategy. Most notably used by the high powered winning alliances in Toronto and San Diego, the strategy employs a defensive bot clogging up the left lane next to the downfield pyramid, thus making it more difficult for the other alliance to reach their protected loading zone. Beyond that, the defender is in great position to block full court shots, and allows them to be 84" tall. While certainly an important function of the alliance as a whole, it's not terribly demanding of the third alliance member and works well at events where the field thins heavily by the last few alliance selections.
• Speaking of variety, I guess I should be thankful that 1503 has one of the most original and fiendishly simple shooters out of any team this season. Without any vision processing or video feedback, the pilots are really going to have to trust their instincts with their all-or-nothing approach to scoring. They should be among the best scoring machines at Pittsburgh, but don't get too cocky, Sparfox. If 620, 888, or 2614 can hit their stride, they could seriously challenge the visitors from Canada. One can hope 1503 aligns with their perfect wing mate, 3193, FalcoTech.
• After a disappointing quarter-final exit in Palmetto, 2363 is looking to rebound in Virginia. Triple Helix will be among the top competitors in a field that is thinned out by being on the same weekend as North Carolina. 1610 and 1403 will also be in the mix, but the visitors from Connecticut (195) have the potential to be the biggest threat or best ally for Triple Helix. Especially if the Cyber Knights are allowed to find their groove from full court.
• Even some of the best teams are having issues reaching the top of the pyramid quickly and consistently. The Simbotics had multiple matches where they were not well enough aligned on the corner post to advance all the way to the top. It'd be interesting to see the average points scored per attempt among teams who have successfully completed a 30-pt ascent.
• Given the challenges of climbing, it's especially impressive when a rookie can not only reach 30, but dump in the pyramid goal as well. 4451 might be the best rookie sensation so far this year, after being the #2 selection at two events (Palmetto and Orlando), and reaching the finals at the latter. Another South Carolina team, 343, will attempt to replicate their success at Peachtree this week, but will need to show improvement from Palmetto (where they frequently struggled to make it beyond the first rung). Halfway across the country in Detroit, 1023's multi-purpose hopper will provide them the ability to score in the pyramid goal while climbing, but they also bring a shooter to the table.
• Bad scouting and wonky alliance selections are not something new in 2013. Just ask any team that does scout well. But one of the worst examples of letting a great team fall too far in the draft was 910 at Kettering. Foley Freeze will likely be a much earlier selection in Detroit this week, but will have plenty of competition. 469 and 1023 will both be competing for the first time this year at the district, and will be among the best teams there.
• Kansas City may well come down to who can raise above 10. Practically every team has some sort of method to hang from the 30" bar, but a handful of the top competitors at GKC are aiming for more without giving up shooting. 1986 is the definite favorite (backed by their ground pickup and autonomous shooting), but weren't climbing beyond the first rung when they won Hub City. 1625 and 1730 both have mechanisms to escalate the pyramid, but it remains to be seen how quick and effective they are on the real field. 935 actually uses two different devices on their ascent to 20 points, a "passive" hook and then a pair of motorized tape measures with hooks attached to the end.
• Autonomous continued to play a massive role in deciding matches during week two. Four of the top contenders at the more competitive of the two MAR districts this week (TCNJ) will have the ability to load additional discs from the ground during autonomous. 2590 made the most of this on way to victory in Hatboro-Horsham. 25 and 103 were inconsistent, both in autonomous and tele-op, but were incredibly dangerous when they were on their game, during week one. 2016 is taking their sleek looking machine out of the bag for the first time.
• It's not often that teams "change numbers." Yet, Team Pwnage did just that, as they changed from their previous number (2949) to 2451 this season after splitting from their previous sponsor organization. Hopefully they can continue to carry 2949's reputation as a budding star when they compete at GKC this weekend, despite the new number.
• There's little doubt that 2539's bot would be able to compete at the MAR championship, but after a second round selection and quarter-final exit at a very deep Hatboro-Horsham event, they're behind the 8-ball. The Krypton Cougars are going to have to step up their game and put up some serious points in the MAR standings at Chestnut Hill this weekend to reach Bethlehem.
• There are other teams at Chestnut Hill with work left to do after Hatboro-Horsham. 341 took home gold during week one, but after significant issues with their camera and shooter jams, there are still plenty of questions about Daisy. 1218 was the quickest 30-pt climber at the event, but their shooter left a lot to be desired and their suction cup pickup went un-utilized. If Daisy and Vulcan don't step up, the greater the chances for 3974, 486, and 1640 to win go up.
• Perhaps no event this weekend lacks a clear favorite heading in as much as St. Louis. There are a number of teams that should be able to score well, but it would take one heck of a driving performance for any of them to dominate. Watch for 1208, 1094, and 1985 to be in the thick of the action.
• Only seven teams in Montreal have a number under 3000. The event is tremendously young, but only sports four rookies. Should be interesting to see how much these teams were able to pick up in their first couple years in FRC. 3387 and 3985 have relatively simple, but effective, shooters that will likely be among the better scoring machines at the event.
• North Carolina is 1519's home away from home, as Mechanical Mayhem is venturing down to the regional for the third time in the past four seasons. Reaching the finals in each of their previous two appearances may have something to do with them enjoying the event, and if their full court shooter can hit the mark, it's within reach again.
• Some of the historically strong teams at the Virginia regional are taking their talents to North Carolina this year. 122, 435, and 1086 will all be players in deciding who takes home gold from Raleigh. Blue Cheese will have the best odds of the bunch, but it will be far from a sure thing.
• Despite the combo of two of the more successful teams in Texas over the past couple years on the Lonestar #2 alliance, it's hard to call the stacked 1-2-3 punch #7 alliance (231, 192, 1429) beating them an "upset." Never the less, a quarter-final exit always leaves a sour taste in the mouth of a team the caliber of 624. CRyptonite has higher aims this weekend at Peachtree, and their robot has the potential to match. But they'll need to execute consistently in order to best the likes of 2415, 1648, and 1311.
• When your standards of success are as high as those of RUSH and the Thunder Chickens, just reaching the finals at a single event is a disappointing season. Both 27 and 217 were hoping that 2013 would be better than 2012, but neither managed to get the results they wanted at their first event of the season. We haven't seen the best from either team yet, and there's a chance that either (or both) could be in the winner's circle at St. Joseph's if they can work out the kinks in their machines. They're going to have to catch-up to 2474, as Excel was terrific at Traverse City (#3 seed, 1st pick, and champion).
• If the competitors are ready right out of the bag, there should be no shortage of firepower at Boilermaker this weekend. Speedy and streamlined human loading shooters like 359 and 868 look to be among the best in the field, but don't count out 234, 829, 1646, and 1732. But it's THRUST that may be the favorite. 1501's 2013 machine has the potential to be the best we've seen from them, especially if they can corral additional discs during autonomous.

Re: Predictions Week 3: Creating Flow
 

First of all, I love reading these week after week.

The only thing I wanted to point out was the above blurb, since the results only go down by about 0.6 points seedwise for regional winners, but the big thing that was noted on CD concerning upsets was that the second week had a good number of sizeable upsets. The results you have include the 1st week, which fared much better for the higher seeds and skewed the overall data to favour the higher seeds.

Without the 1st week, the mean winners had a seed value of 3.364, which is more than a full seed below the 2.014 in 2012. This also doesn't show the details with the low seeds reaching the finals several times, which would show that upsetting teams in general (not just winning upsets) seems to be at an all-time or near-all-time high.

Re: Predictions Week 3: Creating Flow
 

Awesome, got a shout out in this week's predictions. Hopefully we can contend with the others mentioned. I'd watch for 4509, 2974, and 1746 at Peachtree as well. 2974 was solid when they were practicing. I don't know much about 4509, but they seem to have some connections with 1771.

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I'd watch for 3928's debut at GKC this weekend. That group of mentors + what sound like some motivated students should be one hell of a combo.

http://www.teamneutrino.org/2013/pre...ease/imag2567/

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We used this strategy with at least one alliance partner for almost every match this season. It is by far the easiest and safest way to pay penalty-free defense in this game. A very aggressive line + man-to-man approach is a bit better, but it takes a lot more skill to execute.

Robots that are under 30" tall have an advantage for this basic strategy because they can "chase" teams trying to go around the blocker through the pyramid.

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I agree 100%. I can also say this, look for us (103,25) to be much more consistent for week 3. We have several issues we needed to work out like the tower being lower then any other regional and bag motors failing the carpet coming up and breaking our intake. We made ajustments in our 6 hour window and look foward to this week.

Re: Predictions Week 3: Creating Flow
 

It's still too early to tell. With small data sizes (only 8 events in week 1 and 12 events in week 2), the data is bound to be noisy.

A better comparison would be to track previous games week by week to compare how noisy their data was.

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Oh, for sure; I was just noting that it was an interesting second week.

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Not outside the norm, though. #8 upset #1 3 times during week 3 last season.

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We anticipate giving the field reset crew more of a work-out with the belay hooks this weekend. ;)

Enough good teams here to create some very unfavorable match-ups in qualifications. Can't wait to see how it all plays out.

Web-cast = http://www.more.net/first-robotics

Re: Predictions Week 3: Creating Flow
 

In another thread (lessons learned from week one) Sean posted about defence and how it was easy to do. What I am shocked about is how bad teams are at playing defence this year. Maybe it is the increased use of Mech or omni wheels, I am not sure. I though you would have seen more defence this year becasue of the win loss system. I am tempted about making a video of how to play defence with this years game.

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They didn't merit a mention in the preview but take my word for it: don't sleep on 3015 in Virginia. They are a prolific scoring machine and they will be heard from in the eliminations there.

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217 is not competing this weekend. TBA lists them, but FIRST does not. Plus that would be a fourth district they would be attending.

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Its nice after so long a time to even be mentioned here. And yes at least
1610 is wary and knows what 3015 could do. I see some of the New York
teams and a few locals to do well at VCU this year.

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Many thanks for the shout-out, LF! Falco and Sparfox...so funny! But that would be quite the team!

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To clarify the 1771 - 4509:
1771's school chose not to support the team this year, but many students at Lanier High School, 2 miles away, wanted a team. So, some mentors with 1771 roots are helping out. Not as much cash as 1771, nor the fancy tools and shop, but a scrappy rookie team. Good luck to all at Peachtree!

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Koko ed thanks for the compliment. 3015 is very excited to be in va, and look forward to working with the teams down here.

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You are correct, 217 opted out of St. Joseph's in order to compete in the week 6 Bedford district. This will mean that Troy will count for them as a points tournament. I wouldn't wish that fate on anyone.

Also, Guerillas and Bedford better watch out for us, we're competing at Detroit! :D

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I actually don't know how that was possible. No team was offered a third event until Bedford opened.

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I will second that, they were great up at FLR.

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Good assessment of 341. We had numerous shooter and intake issues at Hatboro-Horsham, as well as camera issues (the code works great...but the camera kept falling off :))

But we used our 6 hours well, and are showing up with a somewhat different looking robot ;)

Re: Predictions Week 3: Creating Flow
 

I'm excited to watch it perform this weekend.

-Brando

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It's always a hardware problem with this guy.... I kid, I kid.

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Just saw some practice video of 1640- those guys will be gunning for top seed at Chestnut Hill. I could see them or 3974 pairing up with Daisy and taking a fairly easy ride to Blue Bannertown.

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They've really stepped it up this year. Maybe it's another year of tuning that swerve, or improved drive code, or more driver practice, or the lower CG, or something entirely different. But they're flying around the field. It's awesome to watch them spin into the loading station.

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hahaha funny enough 2429's robot is named falco

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looks like he got some of these right...i know he did for VCU

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Good call, Akash.

Team Neutrino has an excellent robot with a very effective seven-disc autonomous. We were delighted to have them on our alliance. I wish them luck at North Star.

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I have been observing just how many "non-powerhouse" teams that are excelling at this game. Its very nice to see and perhaps a testament to this particular game design.
We could not have won at Springside-Chestnut Hill without the help of Team 225, Tech Fire. This is the first time they have ever been in a regional final in 15 years of play and their teleop scores were an incredible 737 Points. This story seems to be a trend with Ultimate Ascent across FIRST. There are so many teams seeing their very first on-field success.
I for one, am "Looking Forward" to many surprises in the weeks ahead. :)

Re: Predictions Week 3: Creating Flow
 

Detroit had no idea what was coming. Huge props to your drive team, you guys put up some of the most aggressive and game-changing defense I've seen anywhere this season. Awesome job this weekend.

I was just about to comment about how 225 came out of nowhere to be one of the best robots of the season (thus far,) but you beat me to it! :D You all had an awesome performance, and another well deserved win.

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We ended up playing with 39 robots. While it would have been exciting to have 217 at St. Joseph this weekend, the field was pretty strong anyway.

Good call on 2474 Excel, Looking Forward. They have a top-class robot and an aggressive drive team. They and 2959 Robotarians will represent the West Coast very well at States. 2000 Rock and 27 Rush made it close -- a shooter jam in the final seconds kept the #2 alliance from completing a three-match upset in the Finals.

Side note: look for Excel to show an interesting high-tilt shot later this season.

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On Thursday evening 225 came out on the open field (practice matches but not really practice matches) at Springside-Chestnut Hill and just started nailing the full court shot their first "match". It sure shocked me from the scorekeeper's table. Gotta love the robot name too... "Tyrannosaucer Rex" with the teeth and intimidating eyes on the shooter. If my memory is correct, I don't think they missed a single shot from the feeder station in the last finals match.

Look for teams at Lenape next weekend to move to block their full court shots next week as I believe their shooter exit is a bit below 60 inches.

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I can't speak for any other teams, but 1701 had NO IDEA what was going to happen at Detroit! We were completely shocked that we finally figured out what to do win a few matches. Great job to everyone!

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A few? Try all but one!

Your consistent full court shooting was super impressive during qualification matches. So impressive, that it forced every single alliance to throw up tall barriers, forcing you (and 314) to learn a whole new strategy of play in just a few matches; the same strategy that 469 had been practicing for the entire duration of the tournament. For the crazy situation, you guys played extremely well.

I strongly believe that had there been less defense, Detroit would have shattered all of the current high scores. Can't wait to see what the next few weeks bring! Great job, and good luck!

Re: Predictions Week 3: Creating Flow
 

Thank you so much!!! It means a lot to our team, as this was our first appearance in the finals. 314 was an amazing help in the alliance selection process too, and 4838 were awesome to work with, letting us add all kinds of stuff to their robot!

Re: Predictions Week 3: Creating Flow
 

The sheer effectiveness of 225's nearly unblockable full court shooter led to some of the most interesting game dynamics I've seen this season. Once 225 was in position, they could plunk in 90 points worth of discs in about 45 seconds.

Even a perfectly constructed full height blocking device had difficulty getting in just the right spot to deflect their shots (you had to get so close that fouls/technical fouls were just around the corner if you tried to play the blocking game). All of the elimination matches we played became a game of football - 341 and 1495 trying to escort 225 into the "end zone" while the opposition devoted 2 and sometimes all 3 robots to deny access to the feeder station. There were blocks, pins, jukes, spin moves, and even a couple of tackles as the game within the game unfolded.

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Jared, your drive team's move of just bulldozing 1391(?) out of the way while they were pushing 225 away from the feeder zone was one of the most epic FIRST moments I've seen in person. While there may have not been as much "top end" teams at SCH as say HH in week 1, the elimination matches were top notch and filled with a ton of energy and excitement from all involved.

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What made them different than any other (tall?) full court shooter.

Do you have any video?

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2363 and 1610, who proudly represented Virginia at Palmetto, put on a great show and some of the best matches when they faced off. 1403, for that 5 disc auto, and 195, for that full court sniping, delivered a great showing to the field each time.

To those regulars not at our Regional, the venue seemed quieter without your voices there. But you guys had good weekends as well. 435, congrats on winning the regional, and 1086, congratulation on the Chairman's.

If the flow of the field was good, the matches were great. I will honestly say save one match, the eliminations at Virginia were some of the best I've ever seen. They also showed that when you play the game, design your alliance to work as a unit and you're facing a similar alliance, everyone wins.

Re: Predictions Week 3: Creating Flow
 

Very tall, and basically launched frisbees with a light lob - just enough to get them to float into the goal, allowing a slightly higher exit angle than most others I've seen. It is certainly possible to block the shots, but this requires a well constructed blocker (they can up the power to 100% and just tear through most hastily constructed blockers) and impeccable positioning. We had 1495 sit right in front of 225 several times in order to give them more horizontal distance for their shots to rise.

They also have a "stinger" that they use to anchor to the floor, so pushing them vicariously through a second robot positioned in front of them (not in the protected area) is not very effective.

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Very cool, I would love to see match video.

I love that so many old vet teams who haven't had a solid season in a long while are getting back into the thick of things this season. Really good to see 225 doing well. At TCNJ, 293 was also doing really well, they haven't exactly had a solid machine since about 2007 or so. 303 also looks to be in much better shape.

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Why weren't teams blocking them this week? What's going to be different in a week that would make blocking more effective than it was yesterday?

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It seems as if the full court shooter is making a mark this year. Something that people should know (something I found out last week) is that robot starting configuration does not limit you to 60". You can start 84". You sacrifice the ability to go over half court, but it will shut down any 60" tall full-court shooter. Just food for thought! (credit to 3096, the first team I saw do this to block 910 at Detroit district).

Our "Plan B+" attachment is mounted to our hanging hooks and starts at 60" tall and when we extend our hooks is at 66" tall. Not quite 84" but more than 60". We use plywood with a strong fabric in between. Some people thought they could just shoot till it tore. Well it did tear, but never all the way. Remember, you don't have to stuff the shot, just tap it, redirect it a tiny bit, anything to take it off track.

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A full court shooter is defendable. We just took full advantage of the learning curve that teams must go through. Teams simply had not completely thought it out, nor did they have much time to prepare. So they tried to defend by brute force. It almost worked. But our strong partnership and excellent drive teams held tight against onslaught.

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I will attest to that. 834 mounted a sheet of plexiglass on a hockey stick and added it to their robot before the semifinals. 225's shots just about tore completely through it.

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I don't think much will change as far as attempts to block in elims go, but I don't think I saw a single team in qualifications even attempt to slow 225 down. That is where I expect to see more attempts.

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Almost -- it's 1/3 court. You must be in your autonomous zone or touching the pyramid to be legal at 84".

There was an interesting development in one of the GKC elimination matches with ad hoc blockers. 1987 put a pool noodle contraption on their robot for blocking; sometime during the match the noodles broke & were dragging the floor. After the match the referees were out with a tape measure, checking for a 54" cylinder violation (which fortunately didn't occur).

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Yeah I can attest to that not tearing. We tried to shoot through it in one match, we tore the fabric up but the wood was still there to deflect us just enough.

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Meanwhile, at the TCNJ regional...defense became an extremely important aspect of the game in elimination matches.

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You guys were a blast to play against, and made for a trio of great nailbiters in the semis! Fun times!

Having been a part of/worked with 1189 for 5 years now, I can't even begin to say how impressed I am with how much 1189 has improved from last year. For the first time since I joined the team we actually felt like a real contender, and it made the Detroit district one of the best competitions I can remember attending!

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I know i speak for the rest of my team when i say thank you for all of the compliments.

I just uploaded some vids to our 4shared. feel free to download, view and share as you please. there will be more coming (sorry if they aren't all uploaded yet. slow internet).

http://www.4shared.com/dir/x12_6H6t/public_vids.html

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Thanks for all the compliments, guys. We couldn't have won without 341. We were lucky enough that our off matches in eliminations didn't coincide with theirs. I personally learned a lot just this weekend while working with them.

Tech Fire is extremely excited about our first win in 15 years, and we hope to use the win to increase excitement about the program in PA's York/Lancaster counties.

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We actually talked about building one of our alliance partners in Q15 into a blocker to use against 225. I can't remember our exact reasoning (may have been that we were working on our own machine) but we decided against this.

It's worth noting that at least 3 teams built blockers going into the CH Elims. Of those three, one was a fabric netting, another wood and the third was a polycarb sheet on a pole. The fabric netting was quickly broken, the well constructed wooden blocker added too much weight to the robot it was on and leaded to it being too 'tippy' and the team with the polycarb sheet sacrificed the ability to go under the pyramid to add the blocker.

I guess my point here is that 'throwing a blocker on' is a bit more tricky than some people think - especially to do it legally** and without compromising some other machine function.

** See T08:

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Similar thing was experience at Peachtree with 4080. When we faced 4080 in our first semis match, we had 281 grab some metal and pool noodles to serve as a blocker. Thankfully, one of 1648's mentors was an inspector and was able to quickly get another to re inspect 281 before the match.Quite possibly one of the most brilliant strategies I saw played netted in the shutdown of 4080's full court shot and exploited the flaws in 3489's drivetrain.

832 however wasn't so lucky. I was hoping the 5th seeded alliance would've followed the same strategy we played previously in the semis. However, 832's blocker didn't fit within the robot frame, so some quick adjustments had to be made, but in the end they were disabled for that final match.

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We are definitely looking forward to state, though I'm not sure how likely we are to go for our "high-tilt" shots again after our close call in finals-3 :D

Thankfully we got to the bottom of the shooter inconsistency, which had plagued us through all our elimination matches, before we bagged up the robot; so we will be back to 100% at MSC, hopefully with even more to show!

edit: Also, thanks!

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I know I'm late to the party, but thank you both so much! We're still reeling from how good this robot is. I know we weren't up to snuff at SCH--we got our tails kicked in semis for a variety of reasons--but we're working those kicked tails off for MAR (80 points; fingers crossed). We want to show everyone that 30 (50?) point climb much more often!

To answer your question, Sean, it's basically all of the above. The big thing though is the drive code; we've finally got truly holonomic drive. The better modules, lower CG and faster finish (more practice) really makes it shine. Thanks for the compliments!

Re: Predictions Week 3: Creating Flow
 

Sorry to double post (and venture off topic), but I just saw this and I have to ask. These changes actually are legal in elims? :( We tried to make a minor modification (moving our camera after our climber broke), and were told by the inspector--adamantly and very loudly--that "no new features could be added in eliminations". When I inquired as to the restriction and why we couldn't be reinspected, it just resulted in repeated loud "no new features". I even asked if we could remove the camera entirely (it was now in a rather unsafe place), and the only answer I could get was "no new features". I'm not sure what that meant in the context of removing a device.

I then asked to see the written rule, and he finally said that we could do it, but he would decide to make the inspection take too long--we were only in queue and the alliance on the field had called a timeout. Our initial elimination inspection had taken all of 60 seconds (they just weighed us and glanced at our wider feed chute), but we were asked if we wanted to get out of line and miss the match for at least a 10 minute long inspection.

Sorry to rant. It only seemed odd at the time as I'd never heard such a restriction before, but now I'm just upset. The camera's not in real good shape either (the face split off again in that next match).

Re: Predictions Week 3: Creating Flow
 

This behavior is ridiculous and unacceptable from a volunteer.

Re: Predictions Week 3: Creating Flow
 

There is no written rule forbidding changes in eliminations. The head referees and inspectors confirmed it for us. We simply had to get 281 re-inspected before the match, and even then, only the weight and additional changes had to be inspected.

Re: Predictions Week 3: Creating Flow
 

From the statements presented here I would have to completely agree.

We had teams adding extensions to block full court shooters throughout elims, much to the dismay of the full court shooter. ::rtm:: It seemed easy for the inspectors to either reweigh quickly or look at their previous weight and determine they would still be in compliance.

Re: Predictions Week 3: Creating Flow
 

At GKC the (experienced and knowledgable team of) inspectors were available near the field during elims and were granting rapid re-inspections as needed.

Re: Predictions Week 3: Creating Flow
 

I'm not aware of such a rule, and we sure inspected a lot of ad-hoc changes during eliminations at GKC (well, my fellow inspectors did; I recused myself because the full-court shooter that they wanted to block was on our alliance. :D). Did you ask for the LRI (assuming this wasn't the LRI, of course) for a ruling? If not, I recommend that you politely do so if the situation ever arises again.

Re: Predictions Week 3: Creating Flow
 

I wondered if you were inspecting any of those blockers. Too bad there wasn't suddenly a limit on the amount of electrical and duct tape that can be contacting surfaces comprised of pool noodles, PVC, and lexan :rolleyes: .

Re: Predictions Week 3: Creating Flow
 

You can add things to the robot. You just have to make sure they are in compliance with the rules that's all.

Re: Predictions Week 3: Creating Flow
 

In retrospect, I absolutely should have taken it to the next authority level. I basically gave up because, once I asked him for the written rule, he agreed to comply with T10, just deliberately not in a rapid fashion. So his offer in the end was legal, and I wasn't sure what to do with it as far as appeals. (Other than regretfully decline and try to explain to my students that, not only would be not be able to try climbing right again, we might need to take the money for another camera out of our budget.)

Thanks for the feedback everyone; it's nice to know I wasn't off the deep end on this one.

Re: Predictions Week 3: Creating Flow
 

Heh, this is an interesting one. Having assisted in inspecting 1640's robot the first time, I really don't know what to say other than: impressive machine.

I'd like to have seen your 30 point climber work a little more though, but stuff happens...

I should point out that, if you ever have a problem with an inspection call, your first move should be to ask to get/cite the rules. There were some other calls over the weekend where teams immediately asked for the rule to be cited or cited the rule themselves, and got the proper ruling.

Just my $0.02

Re: Predictions Week 3: Creating Flow
 

First, thank you. That inspection was quite nice :)

Second, yes as to the rule, but I don't know how FIRST could regulate the amount of time the T10 reinspection takes--nor am I sure I'd want them to. Unfortunately, I don't see a whole lot of regulatory recourse for an unecessarily long (or for that matter, unnecessarily short) reinspection. I don't mean that as a complaint--if anything I guess I mean teams might want to keep such scenarios in mind.

Re: Predictions Week 3: Creating Flow
 

Siri, I'm sorry about your poor experience with this particular RI. Like Adam said, the apparent attitude of this volunteer was unacceptable.

In general, inspectors will do everything in their power to get teams ONTO the field, not keep them OFF the field. If you've ever hung around an inspection table on practice day, you'll see the LRI directing RI's to help teams that are in danger of missing their first Qualification matches.

Not every RI is perfect, and quite frankly some would be better placed in other volunteer roles. That is why every regional has an LRI in attempts to keep team experience as consistent as possible. If you are having trouble with a particular RI, please request the assistance of your LRI.

Robot Inspectors are your friend!

-Mike

PS. I personally had a blast robot inspecting for the first time this year. What a great way to get to know teams and the incredible students who know their robots so well! I highly recommend any post-high school FIRST alum give inspecting a try!

Re: Predictions Week 3: Creating Flow
 

This. Chestnut Hill was my first event inspecting robots (I've gotten inspected a few times before), and I had a blast getting to know some awesome robots. There were some top-notch machines at CH, especially some of the rookies.

Re: Predictions Week 3: Creating Flow
 

When something weird happens, send a pre-college student to the question box for further clarification.

Re: Predictions Week 3: Creating Flow
 

This.

When a questionable call is made, a call is missed, or we see something obviously illegal happen, we send a student (most often our driver) to the question box. Usually, he's sent there with/by a mentor who stays within ear shot and has a tablet with both the rules and Q&A at the ready. This doesn't always help with a call for the previous match, but we've found that with persistent questioning, the calls will improve over the course of an event.

Also, on the subject of changes and repairs done between elimination matches:

As far as I can tell, the purpose of T08 is to prevent a team from rebuilding/modifying their robot into something completely different over the course of the competition - not to prevent teams from making logical improvements to their machine as things break and don't work as intended.

In 1640's case, their machine had a camera. The camera was in a less than ideal spot, so they made the decision to move it. IMO, that's CLEARLY 're-configuring' a mechanism and therefore legal. It wasn't like they didn't have a camera to begin with and suddenly decided to add one... (as is often true with blocking mechanisms)

Any way, it seems like we should all keep our rule books at the ready. We're going to need them.

Re: Predictions Week 3: Creating Flow
 

I believe the purpose of T08 is to ensure that robots with alternate configurations have all mechanisms under the size and weight limits (and all other rules). In other words, if my team has both a climber and a shooter, but only one on the robot at a time, my robot has to weigh less than 120lbs with BOTH mechanisms (not just the one on the robot at any given point). If all of my mechanisms pass the inspection, as given in T08, I do not have to be re-inspected to change my configuration between matches.

Re: Predictions Week 3: Creating Flow
 

Looking at T08/T10 as a whole, I don't think the rule even does that; all it says is that using a mechanism not on your robot during inspection requires another inspection. In fact, if Siri's team wanted to only move its camera in a way that did not require any new parts, IMO that would qualify as a "reconfiguration" and should not require another inspection at all.

Re: Predictions Week 3: Creating Flow
 

Sean, you're right, T08/T10 serves that purpose as well, along with allowing a team to remove a broken mechanism, compete without it for some period and then re-install it after it has been repaired.

Regardless of how it's being interpreted., I think it's pretty clear tweaking a camera's position is legal under T08/T10.

I realize that I phrased my previous post a bit weirdly, and I was more or less trying to say that T08/T10 is there to prevent a team from changing their robot's configuration (I.E. removing and/or adding a climber or shooter) without having all mechanisms inspected as Sean said above. In any case, It seems that we're all in agreement that re-positioning of components on a robot is legal.

Re: Predictions Week 3: Creating Flow
 

Siri, please be sure you bring this to the attention of the event's volunteer coordinator or lead robot inspector, even now. Inspectors like that give the whole crew a bad name, and we don't need people like that. That volunteer should not be allowed to do things like that, and hopefully someone will flag them in VIMS as not being acceptable for RI.

Re: Predictions Week 3: Creating Flow
 

Be very careful when reconfiguring under T08, that your configuration complies with all rules. For instance when moving a camera, it is very easy to violate R04 without noticing. The penalty for your mistake could disablement under G05. Be on the safe side and get reinspected.

Re: Predictions Week 3: Creating Flow
 

I think 469 found a pretty good way of eliminating any threat from Crevolution ;)

Great job out there!!

Re: Predictions Week 3: Creating Flow
 

Welcome to the forum, Neal.

Neal brings up a good point regarding draft strategy. There have been times where there have been teams that would have been a better fit with us, but we picked a different team just so we didn't have to play against them. It's not always about what is going to make your alliance score the highest. Sometimes you have to say, "what is our weakness and who is going to exploit it?" Then it's about the tradeoffs.

Re: Predictions Week 3: Creating Flow
 

This.

Seriously, Siri, that inspector who gave you a hard time needs to be educated. Hopefully, they will listen and change their ways.

Sincerely,
Andy

Re: Predictions Week 3: Creating Flow
 

Thanks Don, Andy and everyone else. For those who are curious, I'm told the incident has now be fully relayed to the event LRI. Thanks for the support everyone, we needed it.