Re: Climbing and dumping not winning?
 

Additionally, they would have won if 269's ten point hanger hadn't broke in the first finals match. So, 2481 got extremely close to winning a regional as a climber-dumper.

I think the key for the climber-dumpers is they need to be able to do something else than just get those 50 points. Ideally, they can get 18 points in autonomous and then do a cycle or play defense before starting the climb. I'm not sure a pure climber-dumper can be a foundation of a winning alliance.

Re: Climbing and dumping not winning?
 

I think that in theory, a very fast (as in can go from at the feeder station at the 30 second mark to points) could be an excellent component of a winning alliance this year, but "pure dumpers" tend to just take far too long to be useful defensively.

At BAE, 3467 had basically a 30 second climb but with no dump. They could slow each team down 1 cycle and then climb for 30, making an easy net contribution of 54 (+30 / -24) to the alliance. Unfortunately, I think a lot of teams designed pure hangers with defense as an afterthought.

Re: Climbing and dumping not winning?
 

So.... 1114?

Re: Climbing and dumping not winning?
 

In Los Angeles, 3309 parlayed climbing into being picked first. When they broke out their climb-and-dump for the first time (all 50 points of it!) in the late QFs or their first SF match, they put a HUGE target on their backs. Regional finalist 981 proceeded to play very aggressive defense during the next semi, stopping them cold (981's alliance won the match, despite racking up 3 Technical Fouls from that defense). Apparently, something went wrong with 3309's climber during the third match--despite a lack of defense (though the threat was there), they didn't climb.

4210, the other triple-bot (though no dump) at the event, was knocked out by a barrage of shots from the #6 seed's three shooters into the goals.

Re: Climbing and dumping not winning?
 

The 68 point strategy is great (18 auto + 50 dump). The trouble is that it's quite difficult to pull off. We tried to build that robot, but we decided to abandon our 30 point climber in favor of a 10 point climber for our next regional. Our climber was fairly complicated and took a long time to put together, so that led to some issues.

The thing that made the climber design extra hard was having a shooter in the way of everything. Our shooter is curved with an 8" wheel, and that takes up a ton of space, especially with the smaller frame perimeter. We were very close to the limit on all of our starting configuration space constraints, and that made it hard to create something with some margin for error.

We worked a ton on that climber, and I think we came pretty close to getting it working. But I don't think it would have been fast enough to justify its existence given how fast it's possible to score a volley of four discs. Our design would have taken more than a minute to climb and dump - at that rate, it's possible to make 12 point disc runs and have nearly as much point scoring potential. 3 pointers are way less risky, both in terms of robot damage and the risk of losing 80% of the points you were trying to score if you aren't fast enough. The fast scoring surprised us about this game - we thought it would be slower to get back and forth from the feeder and score discs, and we thought defending robots would be more successful at slowing down shooting robots than they are in practice.

So here's why I think climbing and dumping isn't winning:
1) A frisbee shooter with a 10 point hanger can outscore a pure 50 point dumper, and the former is quite a bit easier to build.
2) It's really hard to build a 50 point dumper that can also shoot 3 point shots, whereas a human loading 10 point hanger + shooter is within the reach of most teams.
3) A 50 point dumper is all or nothing (or close to it). A shooting robot can experience minor issues or defense and still score a significant fraction of its expected points.

Re: Climbing and dumping not winning?
 

Yep, it was our camera mount of all things - it was bent such that the drivers had no idea if they were lined up to climb (we'd been battling pyramid alignment issues all weekend, finally gotten them solved, only to have this happen, naturally more fixes will happen for LV).

Our team agreed early on that a 50 point climb and dump alone wouldn't cut it - an 18 point auto and telop shooting are needed to balance things out and prevent the "one-trick pony" problem. We really only had everything working together at the very end of LA, it certainly takes time.

Re: Climbing and dumping not winning?
 

Alignment, alignment, alignment that is the bane of existence of all climbers. I seen so many corner climbers including my own being slightly off and falling off. Not only you have to a have a fast climb but you need to pull yourself into alignment quickly.

That is why I really like 1114 system, they seem to have a wider window for alignment allowing for a quick alignment when they climb for the ten point mark.

No point in climbing quickly if it take you 30 seconds to line up. Your just going to be too slow. If our robot can't align quickly, we certainly won't be in the running to win Las Vegas. Though the odds of wining in LV are more related to if 987 is on your alliance or not.

Re: Climbing and dumping not winning?
 

I don't think anyone would define 1114 as a 'pure dumper'.

- Sunny G.

Re: Climbing and dumping not winning?
 

A robot with a 7 disk auto and a 10pt hang can beat a fifty point climber by basically just sitting there during teleop. With a couple rounds during teleop, then it's more like 100 points, let alone 50.

Re: Climbing and dumping not winning?
 

A robot that scores more points definitely beats a robot that scores less points.
How you score them is up to you :)

I think the important takeaway is that performing only one aspect of the game can be successful but will not guarantee dominance.

Re: Climbing and dumping not winning?
 

I'm not sure I grant the assertion here. A robot that scores 50 points every single match match is easily in the top 100 of all robots. A robot that scores 68 should be in the conversation for top 10. Any robot that consistently scores 68 points per match would win, a lot. Perhaps the OP assumes climb&dump isn't winning because there's inconsistency in the climbing and the dumping.

Re: Climbing and dumping not winning?
 

Certainly, there are inconsistencies with any type of scoring - defense, mechanical defects, etc. What you can accomplish in two minutes on an empty practice field has little bearing on what occurs in a real match. With climbing being somewhat more difficult, more can go wrong.

As MrG said, Roboteers 2481 did just that at Wisconsin. OPR of 48.7, tops at the event. They lost a very close Finals round, mostly because they tipped in F3 and spent pretty much the whole match on their back. I expect them to win at Crossroads next weekend assuming they will find a decent power shooter to pair with (their shooter is fine on their own, too).

Re: Climbing and dumping not winning?
 

1114 is in a category by themselves.

Re: Climbing and dumping not winning?
 

in the finals at boston this year at the end of the match there were very few white disks left. I think at champs there will be some strong 2 robot teams that can on there own shoot all of their white disks. Leaving the third robot to climb and dump. If on a deeper field a dumper sleeps to be the last robot picked that alliance will be hard to stop.