Climbing and dumping not winning?
 

Why are 30 point climber and dumpers not winning?

Re: Climbing and dumping not winning?
 

They can be outscored by a good shooter relatively easily

Re: Climbing and dumping not winning?
 

Because in the time it takes them to load up, line up (maybe multiple times), climb up, and dump, their opponents can load up, line up less precisely, and unload 12 points each. That's only 1 trip, if all 3 are 100% in the high goal, then if one of them floor loads another 4 (or makes another trip), they only need a 2-pointer to match the climber. That's about a 30-second or less span of time to erase the 50 points given by a climber/dumper in the entire match.

Now, that's without automode factored in. At 6 points/shot, and 9 total shots from preload, that's only 54 points in autonomous. The dumper's partners get to make up not only the 4, but whatever 3 scoring robots can land--and it's a 3-on-2 to boot.

Re: Climbing and dumping not winning?
 

So it seems like the average score is around 75 points. If you can shoot in autonomous and climb and dump that is 68 points. So just confused on how that is not dominating

Re: Climbing and dumping not winning?
 

In my view they are getting beat because 50 points just won't do it when an alliance has good shooters. And the situation clears up the field for shooters to go get fed

Re: Climbing and dumping not winning?
 

The climber dumper only contributes 50 points without a shooter. A good shooter with 10 point hanger can match the dumper with 18 pt auto 10 pt hang and only 2 cycles of frisbees easily doable by many teams.

Re: Climbing and dumping not winning?
 

So if you were able to do autonomous, then make one trip with 4 disk and them climb for a total of 80 points. Would that be able to win?

Re: Climbing and dumping not winning?
 

Because the other alliances score more points.


Now if you wanted to figure out why that was that might make an interesting discussion.

Usually it comes down to the fact that most climb and dump teams are a one trick pony. Good for 56 points in a match. Unfortunately, many of them are taking 1 minute or more to climb which means they run to the feeder station, load up, and commence climbing. This means their alliance is playing 2v3. Assuming the typical strategy of 2 shooters and a defender, the defender is able to essentially make it 2v1 by slowing down the higher scoring of the two remaining robots. So now you have the better 2 scorers almost unmolested scoring for the whole match. They need to beat the lone other shooter by 46 points.

Basically, the reasoning is because most climb and dump bots are too one dimensional from a strategic stand point. Bots like 558 can easily score 30 points (20 from shooting into pyramid and 10 from a low hang) while still being a defensive robot OR using their shooter to put up a few more points.

Re: Climbing and dumping not winning?
 

Your opponents happen to be 3 decent shooters, who are 100% in auto and 80% otherwise, and all happen to be high-goal robots. One has floor pickup.

Auto: 9*6=54, plus another 2*6 (pyramid discs) is 66. Let's say they don't get the last pair of discs.

That's only 14 points to make up. Now admittedly, you have two partners who will be in operation, probably hitting their 3 apiece (and stretching the lead out to 50 in the process). But, that means that all your opponents need is a single robot who can make 4-5 trips (and/or pick up misses) and hang for 10 while the other two play defense on your partners, while you spend the entire match in your climb and dump.

The odds aren't exactly in your favor, even now. Now if you had a much faster climb and dump, and so could play D, you've got a chance.

Re: Climbing and dumping not winning?
 

There is also the risk versus reward. Missing a climb is a lot riskier than missing frisbees. You can fall, get no points and be damaged, you can be slow and miss the dump. There is a lot of risk. Even successful climbs and really wore down our practice bot.

Re: Climbing and dumping not winning?
 

Do you have a way to figure out how many robots successfully do a 50-point climb and dump? And how often? I've been to 2 regionals and have seen only one (of three that appeared to be capable) successfully accomplish the feat. The one that did couldn't shoot, so no auto score.

At the same two regionals I've seen 2 bots with successful 7-disk auto and another with 5. I've not specifically counted but I'm pretty sure I've seen over 20 bots with 3-disk autos. My point is that I suspect there aren't enough of them, and that the ones that can do 50 aren't successful anywhere close to 100% of the time.

Then factor in time. Most 30-point climbers I've seen take at least 90 seconds to climb; some slower. Even medium-speed shooters are doing 3 runs in a match (say 27 points on average. Add in 18 auto and you've basically beat that 50-point dump. Dominating bots are scoring 60 or more on their own.

Re: Climbing and dumping not winning?
 

Climbing and dumping is HARD. I can count on one hand the number of robots which have been able to reliably climb and dump for 50pts at competition. None of them also have an auto mode. The closest is 179, who can shoot reasonably well, climb for 20 and dump for 20.

You are right that a 68 point contribution would win most of your matches. I guarantee you that if you have a robot which can do this every match, you will do very well at competition. Even a reliable 50pts will win a lot of matches (4451 is proof positive of this), but quite frankly, very few teams are at that level of consistency.

Additionally, if you want to be reliable you have to be fast. If it takes you a minute to climb, you may think you have all the time in the world, but it's relatively easy for an opponent to stuff you for the first minute on your trip to the feeder station and back. All of a sudden, you don't have the minute to climb like you need, and you're not in position to dump at the end. 50 points becomes 20 points, which is much less effective. While this might not happen every match, there is almost certain to be some qualification matches where the climb/dump is the primary offensive threat, and will be stopped. As the primary offensive threat in eliminations, you're all but guaranteed to be the focus of the defense. 340 fell victim to this at Finger Lakes Regional, where they were delayed just long enough.

As others have mentioned, a good autonomous and a good disc shooter with a 10 point hang can easily match or better the 50pts, and are not as "all-or-nothing", which makes them much harder to stop.

Re: Climbing and dumping not winning?
 

This.

I've been meaning to make a post about this all season, when you factor in the the time element and how much it opens up the field for good shooters, teams that only focus on 30 point climbing are detrimental to winning... I saw it at BAE, alliances that have one (or even two) teams that are dedicated climbers, make it easier for shooting alliances to win by opening up the field for faster cycle times. At BAE 610 had the opportunity to pick one of two pure 30 point climbing robots (took the whole match to climb) as our 24th pick, but there was more value to us in a defensive robot that scored 14 points (4 auto, 10 hang), and prevented more then 16 point per game by playing great D.

for elite robots this year it's only worth it to go for the 30 point climb if you can do it in under ~20sec. The only team that's proven they can do that is 1114.

Re: Climbing and dumping not winning?
 

It really is simple math. One robot with a 7 disk auto and a ten point climb beats a 50 point climb. And the robot with auto and ten point climb only takes 5-10 seconds + 15 in auto to make those points, while the 50 point climb takes the whole match.

Re: Climbing and dumping not winning?
 

Honestly, all of the above is true, but to be frank I haven't seen many pure 50 point dumpers that actually get 50 points a match. A lot of teams assumed the "dump" part would be easy, but then just ended up being only 30 point climbers, which is a LOT less valuable.

The 50 point dump would still be a strong contender at regionals and very possibly on the right winning alliance, if it consistently existed and the right picks fell to the right alliance captain.

Re: Climbing and dumping not winning?
 

We climbed and dumped in every one of our elimination rounds. We also had a three to four disc autonomous in those rounds. It still wasn't enough and we got eliminated in the semi-finals. When you are up against two solid shooters and a good defender it is hard to beat unless your teammates are fast and amazingly accurate.

Another part is that the game pieces are consistent, but not o
100%. We only got all four discs in auto once. Sometimes we only got two. Those twelve points make or break the game.

You could also argue that the game isn't named right, I would have called it "ultimate frisbee shooting, and maybe climb that big tower if you want a good engineering challenge but are okay with losing from time to time"

That doesn't have the same ring to it as "Ultimate Ascent" though does it?

Re: Climbing and dumping not winning?
 

The only consistent climber/dumper I have witnessed so far is 4451 Bobotz Garage who was really good at it. They seeded high and always got to the top of the tower easily and dumped four discs every time. Thier only weakness was they didn't retract the dumper to some discs would touch against it and those points were disallowed. They seeded well and should have won Orlando. 340 would have done well at it but their shooter jammed often. I suspect this will be fixed by Buckeye.

Re: Climbing and dumping not winning?
 

Care to explain this one? We had 3 shooters against 125 (233 wasn't shooting). This seems to be exactly the situation Jonathan and I have both explained. Their defender simply wasn't up to the task of playing good (clean) defense and didn't neutralize enough of our scoring in an appropriate manner.

Re: Climbing and dumping not winning?
 

I'm sorry but no. Pink greatly diminished your alliances scoring capability in those finals matches. The reason you guys won was because 4451/125/233 only could score 3 high goal and 2 low goal in auto, whereas, your alliance could score 9 in the high goal. That amount of point difference was just too much to overcome.

Re: Climbing and dumping not winning?
 

so from what it sounds like even if you can climb it would be better to spend your time doing defense and shooting?

Re: Climbing and dumping not winning?
 

I think you need to read a little more into people's statements rather than looking for an easy answer.

It is a fairly simple mathematical equation that comes doing to points / second.

Can your climber/dumper, plus 1 average shooter and a defender, beat 2 average shooters and a defender?

Score (climber) + Score (Shooter) = Score (Shooter) + Score (Shooter).

50 (climber) + 36 (teleop shooter) + 12 (auton shooter) != 36 (teleop shooter) + 12 (auton shooter) + 36 (teleop shooter) + 12 (auton shooter)

Or,

Climbing Team = 50+36+12 = 98
Shooting Team = 36+12+36+12 = 96 , at a very very rough first estimation.

Edit: Corrected. The first approximation appears they are very close.

Re: Climbing and dumping not winning?
 

The reason they lost is because they COULDN"T consistently score 3 high goals and 2 low goals in Auto.

First game Blue (4451) scored 28 in Auto and won it 109 to 81.

2nd game only 4 in auto and they lost by 2, 95-97.

3rd game 10 in auto and they lost 82 to 103 thanks to 23 penalty points.

Blue outscored Red in Teleop (Blue 41-41-32 vs Red 31-41-30) and Hanging (Blue 40-50-40 vs Red 20-20-20) every game.

Blue's inconsistent Auto (Blue 28-4-10 vs Red 30-36-30) is what cost them the win. It should have never went to a third game, ONE high goal in Auto by Blue would have ended it at the second game.

But that's why you play the game!

Re: Climbing and dumping not winning?
 

I thought the 125 alliance would take it also. But I think 4451 would be more effective if they played some D in the first 30 seconds before they climb, although that puts them at risk. The 744/79/1772 Alliance played a dynamic D and O strategy that was just the right balance to slow down the 125 alliance. The 2 penalties at the end were unfortunate but that's the risk 233 was taking (and yes we should have picked em...)

I think a climber dumper that plays D at nationals could be huge when there are plenty of shooters to choose from. Reason is they get out of the way giving room for the shooters to work.

Re: Climbing and dumping not winning?
 

We had the same thoughts. It was a tough choice to not pick Pink.

Re: Climbing and dumping not winning?
 

233 diminished OUR ability to score due to our hopper breaking finals 1. ;) We had almost 0 scoring ability left.

Re: Climbing and dumping not winning?
 

As I was headed out to the picking I asked Andy if he had it all together and he said no, don't pick us.... But I knew they were gonna bring the D. It's becoming the 233 curse for us.

Re: Climbing and dumping not winning?
 

We missed all 3 of our auto shots this match, the first of any auto shots we missed all weekend....

However, I feel like I should step in here. The #8 alliance WON the regional. There is no point in hashing out what could have happened or what should have happened. They are your Orlando Regional Champs, and we have a ton of respect for them doing so from the #8 seed.

Theres no point in discussing what would happen if so and so didn't get a penalty, or so and so made a few more shots, because it didn't happen and thats why the matches are played. Both alliances had an opportunity to win, and the #8 alliance seized theirs and thats all there is to it.


Major props to 744/79/1772, you guys earned your banner.

-Brando

Re: Climbing and dumping not winning?
 

We're running into the same problem. Our best non-climb score is 60 (3 disc auto and 4 cycles with 2 misses). If we climb immediately, our best-case differential isn't real impressive (+8 over our actual non-climb, +2 over best case non-climb).

I think the discrepancy isn't so much the name "Ultimate Ascent", but that the "good engineering challenge" was mis-defined by a lot of teams--by my limited knowledge, basically everyone except 1114. It's not "climb the pyramid and dump the discs", it's "score a lot, then climb the pyramid and dump when your opponent [albeit alliance dependent] can only score 50 more points". So we knew we wanted to climb fast, but we had no idea it needed to be that fast. No we're aiming for 2 feeder loads before we climb. (We certainly technical have capacity to pull it off, not that it's not a lot of work to prep and get reliable.)

Re: Climbing and dumping not winning?
 

I would say a lot of it comes down to the game that 50 point climber/dumpers are designed to play. This thread has already pointed out that a dedicated dumper is capped with a max score of around 50 points per match. That's better than the average robot score but is a far cry from the 70+ that many primary scorers can put up on Championship alliances at the regional level (consider further that almost none of the dumpers have 100% consistency, which puts their average score below 50).

An alliance relying on a dumper as one of its primary scorers isn't likely to win a shootout because of the cap on scoring that the dumper has. If an alliance is built primarily around a dumper bot the only way they're going to win IMO is by going all out on defense (similar to the triple balance alliances at the regional level last year). Keeping the disc scores low for the opposing alliance makes the 50 point dump worth more relative to their score and could be a winner when combined with some decent autonomous scores and 10 point hangs from the other alliance members. Since the majority of the dumpers take half the match (or more) to load and score the rest of the alliance is left in a 2v3 situation which makes playing all out defense that much tougher. They probably will score hardly any teleop discs because they won't be able to do anything other than try to stop the opposing alliance from scoring. The biggest issue facing this strategy is autonomous scoring because the alliance will probably cap out around 100 points maximum. If the opposing alliance has a 5 or 7 disk autonomous and racks up 70+ points when you can't defend them then the match is already over.

I do hope that dumpers are a part of some of the championship alliances as 2nd round picks at the Championship (or deep events like the district championships). At a deep event most of the 1st round picks are going to be high scoring disc machines, if the dumpers don't end up as a lower seeded alliance captain they could make a very valuable 3rd partner to an alliance wanting to go all out on offense. Could you imagine the scores from an alliance of 2056, 987, and a 50 point dumper?

Re: Climbing and dumping not winning?
 

so if your robot can climb, dump, and shoot. how fast would your climber have to be to make it worth climbing and dumping?

Re: Climbing and dumping not winning?
 

You know what confuses me about this thread? The timing. Didn't we just have our first climb+dump winner during week 3? 1806 was the #1 selection at winner at GKC (ahead of a team with a 7-disc autonomous).

Re: Climbing and dumping not winning?
 

Depends on your opponents and your allies.

Re: Climbing and dumping not winning?
 

Not to sure what "matchmatical" is, but you may want to review your mathematics.

Last time I checked, 50 + 36 +12 = 98, and 36 +12 + 36 + 12 = 96.

Seems like 50 + 36 +12 > 36 + 12 + 36 + 12.

Re: Climbing and dumping not winning?
 

Our Climb+Dump was more of a backup plan than our first choice in strategy. Not to mention we can only climb for 20 points.

Re: Climbing and dumping not winning?
 

That would seem confusing, except that example is 1 Event out of 32 (although admittedly I haven't checked on the winners of all the events to see if that is the only one... but even if it's 2/32..).

I think a lot of us (myself included), thought that of the non-do-everything bots, the climber/dumper would be THE rockstar of the competitions. Now as people have pointed out, consistency seems to be what is failing the climbers and even the climb/dumpers. We've seen so few robots that climb for 30 every match. We've seen even fewer robots that can climb and dump even 75% of their matches (maybe only a couple?). Climbing is HARD. Much much harder than reliable shooting.

And I think that is what makes this analysis tough. We just don't have a lot of good examples of a consistent version of this type of robot yet.

However, I am wondering as teams improve their robots across the season, and as teams learn strategies to defend shooters, if this won't start changing. It is really really hard to defend a climber/dumper. Its much much easier to defend a shooter.

I'm curious to see if the average eliminations shooting scores actually increase or decrease as this season goes on. I wish I had time to run some of the numbers, as I bet there will be some really interesting trends. TBA is already showing the elims scores flattening, but we don't know if that includes improved auto, defended shooting, or improved climbing or what. I wonder what the next few weeks will show.

Re: Climbing and dumping not winning?
 

I thought they had easily won the last match and if it wsan't for those penalties they would have had the blue banners.

Re: Climbing and dumping not winning?
 

1806 had a shooter though. I think some (most?) of us are analyzing the original question as "why aren't dedicated climb and dumpers winning?" If you can shoot as well that changes the question drastically since you can score 18 in autonomous and break the 50 point barrier in teleop easily.

Re: Climbing and dumping not winning?
 

What shocks me is no one played D on them. They just let them go get their colored Frisbees and go to the pyramid and do their climb and no one bothered to even try to get in their way.

Re: Climbing and dumping not winning?
 

I tried to get our alliance to do it, but our drive coach told me that our alliance came to the conclusion that 4451 climbed so fast that it was pointless to try and block them from doing it. That, and they had one of the fastest drivetrains at Orlando.

Re: Climbing and dumping not winning?
 

At FLR 1559 climbed just as quickly and 48 attacked them twice before they latched on to the pyramid to keep them from executing the climb. You can't just let them do it.

Re: Climbing and dumping not winning?
 

You are correct. I made both a spelling and a mathematical error. Thank you for pointing that out.

So it would appear that both methods are extremely similar. Are the dumpers not getting their extra 20, or not climbing consistently for 30? Or are the shooters making more than 3 runs, or hitting more than 2 in autonomous consistently?

The FRC Miner data from Waterford is interesting. 1025, the only 30 point climber, has the most climbing points and an average autonomous. Their teleop score, however, is low enough that teams who shot well and had a consistent 10 point hang beat them. People who were scounting know that 1025 struggled to climb on the second day, reducing their climbing score somewhat. They still seeded 6th, proving that climbing robots can be competitive.

Re: Climbing and dumping not winning?
 

There was no 7-disk auto available -- we already have a 7-disk auto, and 3928 uses the same 7 disks we do. It's unfortunate that they broke & weren't available for the 2nd finals game; it would have been interesting to see what they could have done.

1806 was a shooter; climb & dump was an option that they rarely used. As Woolly points out, it's a 40-point possibility, not a primary strategy. The few times their full-court shooter was allowed to roam free they racked up very high scores. When they were blocked, 1806 still scored from the pyramid. Not as much as a dedicated pyramid shooter, but when combined with their autonomous scores enough to make them a solid #1 pick. The possibility of a dump at the end was a bonus of their selection; it was a serious consideration but not the primary reason we picked them.

There wasn't a single game in elims that 1986-1806-2457 won where climb and dump points were the margin of victory.

Re: Climbing and dumping not winning?
 

I watched 4451 come out of the loading zone and zoom around the edge of the field while another team was tasked to block them missed. This was during quals I saw this and decided then if I had to play them I wouldn't bother wasting the defense unless I had a very fast and powerful defender. So I think 233 could have blocked them (which is why we needed them - and to get them off of us).
I saw a lot of matches where defenders just sat in the middle of the field waiting for their target to present itself, which was just a waste. If my 3rd bot isn't a strong defender I'd rather have it out of the way and climbing. 20-30 points is points no matter how you look at it, and if we can get another rep in due to a clear alley then its bonus. Seemed to me that defense usually blocked up things for both teams and we needed more room to run. Hopefully we left all our gremlins in Orlando and the pink curse is behind us.

Re: Climbing and dumping not winning?
 

How many more teams do you think would have attempted the 30pt climb (and/or perfected it) if the "climb in succession" rule had not existed?
[In other words, how many more teams would have climbed if they would have been allowed to grab on to something higher and pulled up.]

I personally feel like this is the single rule that makes the whole climb process so hard to complete.

Re: Climbing and dumping not winning?
 

There was a seven disc autonomous available, even if both can't be used simultaneously. Denying the opposition the chance to score those additional four discs is every bit as good as scoring them yourselves. Think 341 in Boston last year. 233's additional center bridge scoring didn't do them any good since 341 already scored those, but in picking them, Daisy removed their most significant competition for the center bridge, greatly reducing the odds that any other alliance would be able to hang with them during hybrid.

Re: Climbing and dumping not winning?
 

I saw 1746 this past weekend that shot 3 in autonomous and then climbed for 30.

Back to the purpose of the thread....the elimination average score is no where near 70. The average score is more like 90-100+.

A team like 4451 is probably going to find a lot more success at world where they can be paired with two very accurate shooters and possibly ones with floor load for autonomous like teams 11, 1114, 2056, 624, 118, 148, 2415..etc.
If they added a shooter solely for auto like 1746 did then 4451 would be a team I wouldn't want to play against.

Re: Climbing and dumping not winning?
 

It's already been stated by others, but let me add some perspective since I work with the scouts to create the final list.

1. We did take all climbers who didn't also have a shooting mechanism and solid drive base off of our pick-list. We needed the flexibility to move our 3rd robot into a defensive roll, and some climbers blocked the sweet shooting spot in the center of the pyramid for a significant portion of their climb.

2. 1806 was the only consistent full court shooter in the field, and when left unmolested could pour an incredible number of discs into the high goal. Because they could hit a wing auto to compliment our 7-disc center auto, and could climb and dump for 40 as a back-up if blocked, they had enough flexibility to be very attractive. There were safer picks, but no one with as much explosive potential to score. (They also took the defensive attention off of us.)

3. No one had an extra disc auto to compliment our 7-disc center. Hopefully others will develop a wing to wing 5 disc which includes the 2 (at minimum) center line discs. We are working on that as well so we can be the most flexible should we pair with other 7-disc specialists at champs. (Side-note: Any team who does not have floor pick-up and extra disk auto capability should spend more time in the tournament perfecting a wing autonomous. Getting 3 from the center is not going to cut it IMO.)

That is a good point, and one the scouts discussed. The other 7 disc auto wasn't very consistent yet, and deemed as a lesser threat. Not picking them was a decision we knew we might regret later.

Re: Climbing and dumping not winning?
 

True, and we were aware of this. I guess I didn't say it very well....what I'm trying to point out is that GKC isn't an example of climb-and-dump winning a tournament. It might have been an example of a full-court shooter winning a tournament, but the GKC teams were smart enough not to let us get away with that. :cool:

It looks to me like a perfect 3 disk autonomous in the top goal plus a climb and dump would be a valuable asset to an alliance. Especially if they can play defense first. So a team that scores 68 points (18 + 30 +20) that can play defense, so potentially blocking a cycle of top goal shots (blocking 12 points), could be worth it. Or a climber and dumper that can pick up a cycle of disks and then climb and dump could score 80 points (18 + 12 + 30 + 20). Thats when I believe it would be effective enough to win. But consistency is key. You may be able to score 80 points but if you cant climb and dump in a match you would only score 30 points. And that is out scorable by the majority of teams.

Re: Climbing and dumping not winning?
 

Swampdude already touched on it a bit, but anyway: We played against 125 and 4451 in our final qualifying match. One of our partners (4562) had no frisbee manipulation capabilities and was built solely for defense. Our other partner could only score 1 point goals, and slowly. Both of these robots did their absolute best playing D against 125 and 4451 with us doing our best to score. 4562 played great D for nearly the entire match but eventually 4451 got back to their pyramid. End result: 91 to 61 loss. D against 4451 doesn't matter unless it is effective nearly the entire match. Once they hit the pyramid they have their points.

With this knowledge our finals alliance decided very quickly to ignore 4451 entirely. Playing D against a good shooting bot slows them down and lowers their scoring. Playing D against 4451 takes perfect D and removes one of your bots from scoring. You mess up once and they get their points. For a great example of this watch Pink during the finals. Spectacular D every match but we still got through once or twice to put up a few points. You let 4451 through once and you've effectively taken yourself out of the game and didn't hurt them at all.

Re: Climbing and dumping not winning?
 

Everybody and their little brother would have probably thought seriously about it. I'd put it at half the teams would attempt it; of those, half would actually succeed at the 30-point level. The rest, and a fair amount of other teams, would end up at 20. The 10-point hang would probably be almost worthless.

Think about it: 2000, 2004, and 2010 have all had hanging, with no contact with the support structure. Teams have those years to reference. But when you include the climbing in sequence, all three of those years are now out the window--you can still get ideas, but they're a lot harder to pull off (particularly with the "detach and winch" variety of hangers from 2004).

Re: Climbing and dumping not winning?
 

IMO, its really all in the consistency, and 4451 showed that. No, they didn't win any events, but they performed quite respectably, and if the cookie crumbled only slightly differently, they might have won.

If you can't be consistent about it, its not worth dedicating your design to it.

I haven't seen ANY other consistently strong Climb+Dumpers. A Climb+Dumper with no auto, and 100% consistency should have an OPR of exactly 50. That would be a top contender at nearly every regional.

A fairly trivial 4 to 6 point auto could be added with minimal effort, and with 100% consistency, that would bring OPR in line with the likes of 610. Not as strong as 1114, 2056, 987, or 1986, but certainly strong enough to win weaker regionals, or be a top pick at a regional with only 1 powerhouse.

Re: Climbing and dumping not winning?
 

Going back a few weeks to the end of build, I was one of those people that believed climbing and dumping was a viable and advantageous strategy. I still do. Machines that climb and dump for 50pts may not be winning events, but they still have their place in this game and can still be highly competitive.

If one were to take a look at the match scores from the last three weeks, they would see that the Average Qualification Match Score is ~50pts and the Average Elimination Match Score is ~80pts. This would imply that 3 robots, on average should be capable of scoring 50pts or so in a match and not necessarily be of Eliminations Caliber...

So, if a team were to field a 50pt climb and dump robot, that team would - in theory - out score the average qualification match with a disc or two scored in autonomous, or a partner that puts up a point or three, and that same climb and dump robot, if paired with another reasonably capable machine, should be able to out score the Elimination Match Average without too much Hassle.

I think the reason that we're not seeing a lot of climb and dump robots winning events is more complicated than it seems, but the primary reason is that there just aren't that many robots that went for the climb and dump strategy, and many of those that did, aren't climbing and scoring reliably enough to really make a dent.

All of that being said, I think that data shows that building a climb and dump machine wasn't a bad decision, especially if it's effective. Regardless of the time the machine takes to do it's climb and dump, 50pts are 50pts and there are a heck of a lot of machines that couldn't touch that number on an open field.

Re: Climbing and dumping not winning?
 

So I may be a bit biased on this one. My kids decided to build a climbing dumper. I'm still not sure they are going to pull it off because this was one heck of a challange, but with luck and hard work I think they will make it.

The thing is...I wonder if a climber/dumper takes away from the scoring capability of the other two bots on its aliance. So for example if you have a full court shooter, and a floor loading cleanup bot would having a 50 point climber/dumper be an acceptable trade off to a third shooter/defence bot? So would it be better to have gone with a defence bot than a climber/shooter? In which case it depends on what you are up against and what you are alied with.

Unfortunately I don't think a 50 point robot is a guarantee of anything. In fact it may prove to be too much of a liability to be desirable.

One thing that might change this is the fact that the scoring system might change at the finals. Not sure which way that would go, but if relatively few climbers make it to the finals then maybe it would break in favor of climber/dumpers...

Edoga

Re: Climbing and dumping not winning?
 

If it takes the whole match to climb / can't drive, and especially if it only makes it to 30 points, it's not worth it. The faster you get the climb, and the more defense you can play before climbing, the better.

There's a reason 3467 was the first pure climber selected at BAE, despite only going to 30. They played great defense for the first minute of the match, then climbed to 30 pretty consistently starting Friday afternoon. In my mind that is a lot more valuable than a 50 point dumper that does nothing else.

I think the best case scenario for teams that built 50 point dumpers would be to go for that strategy in most of their qual matches, but be prepared to switch to defense + quick hang in elims if they have to, or if they don't have the 20 point portion of their game consistent enough.

Re: Climbing and dumping not winning?
 

To me, it seems like robots who just climb and dump aren't enough to win. They also need a 3 disc auto and they need to be able to do some pyramid runs or full court shots. From what I can see, a robot that shot 3 in auto, drove to the feeder station, made some full court shots for 1 minute (if they were defended, they could do pyramid runs), then climbed/dumped for 1 minute would dominate any competition that I've seen so far. Also, it doesn't need a floor pickup. The problem is that a maneuverable, strong, good shooting, and good climbing robot that can win pushing matches is an extremely difficult thing to build.

Re: Climbing and dumping not winning?
 

2481 Roboteers came really close this weekend at WI. They were allied with 2826 Wave from the #4 spot and made it to the finals.

They had a good auto, were very mobile in the early part of teleop (could defend or do at least one cycle) and could climb in around 30 seconds.

I didn't watch the finals closely so I am not sure what was the eventual downfall.

I think that the climb/dump or FCS roads are not totally un-doable but I think primary shooting is a safer bet.

In the words of Karthik "FIRST games are a trick question." Even knowing that I have not learned which aspects are the trick.

-alg

Re: Climbing and dumping not winning?
 

The Bayou Regional this past weekend as a great example of the main point of this thread. 2992 and 1421 were the best 50 point climb and dumpers at the regional. Both made elims with 1421 coming one match away from winning it all in the finals. What made them so successful wasn't the fact that they could score 50 but it was because they forced their opponents to focus on them to try to stop them, thus causing them to slow their scoring down.

2992 was picked by the #5 seed captain and they took the #4 alliance to 3 matches. They forced them to focus on their ability to get 50 points which took away from #4 being able to just focus on scoring. They ended up losing due to 233 awesome defense against them in the 3rd match.

1421 was picked by the #2 captain and they undefeated to the finals due to 155's shooting and 1421 being able to climb and dump 50 with little resistance. In the finals, 1421 had some resistance but was able to still climb and dump and beat the powerhouse scoring #1 seed of 118 and 3753. In the second match, #1 launched an all our defense assault on 1421 slowing them down from their process. With 30 secs left, they were able to complete, in my opinion, the most impressive climb and dump this season (still looking for video of that match) and lost only by 2 points. In the third and final match, #1 decided to let 1421 go through their process, didn't play any defense on them at all and 118 and 3753 just decided to out shoot the climb and dump. 1421 got the climb but missed the dumb but it didn't matter because 118 and 3753 put up at least 127 disc points.

So after watching the elims, it proved that climbing and dumping might get you to the finals, but if the opposing alliance is a very good shooting alliance, you're going to need to scout and have a really good strategy in order to win. 1421 was an awesome bot and had a great climb and dump mechanism but they needed more scoring either from 155 or with 155 and/or someone to slow 118 down to have a better chance of winning.

Re: Climbing and dumping not winning?
 

2481 Roboteers lost because they fell over very early in their last match. Had that alliance got the 50 points from that robot, they would have won. It was their first regional and I'm sure they won't be that tippy at Crossroads.

4143 is a climb and dump with a 4 or 6 point auto dump. We were 8-2 at Wisconsin quals and lost one match by 6 points. 6 more points and a climber/dumper is #1 seed.

Climb and dump can be a winning strategy. Most of the good climbers at Wisconsin where outside corner climbers. We make one trip down the field, get the colored discs. Then we can line up to the corner in the opposing alliances protected loading loading. They bump us while we are lined up touching the pyramid and its a technical foul.

I think the best alliances will be 2 fast shooters and an outside corner climber/dumper.

Re: Climbing and dumping not winning?
 

Also I don't buy the whole 2 on 3 thing.

4143 often a had a bot playing man-to-man on us trying to stop us from getting the colored discs.

One match we pushed it all the way to the feeder station and back to the pyramid.

Re: Climbing and dumping not winning?
 

Additionally, they would have won if 269's ten point hanger hadn't broke in the first finals match. So, 2481 got extremely close to winning a regional as a climber-dumper.

I think the key for the climber-dumpers is they need to be able to do something else than just get those 50 points. Ideally, they can get 18 points in autonomous and then do a cycle or play defense before starting the climb. I'm not sure a pure climber-dumper can be a foundation of a winning alliance.

Re: Climbing and dumping not winning?
 

I think that in theory, a very fast (as in can go from at the feeder station at the 30 second mark to points) could be an excellent component of a winning alliance this year, but "pure dumpers" tend to just take far too long to be useful defensively.

At BAE, 3467 had basically a 30 second climb but with no dump. They could slow each team down 1 cycle and then climb for 30, making an easy net contribution of 54 (+30 / -24) to the alliance. Unfortunately, I think a lot of teams designed pure hangers with defense as an afterthought.

Re: Climbing and dumping not winning?
 

So.... 1114?

Re: Climbing and dumping not winning?
 

In Los Angeles, 3309 parlayed climbing into being picked first. When they broke out their climb-and-dump for the first time (all 50 points of it!) in the late QFs or their first SF match, they put a HUGE target on their backs. Regional finalist 981 proceeded to play very aggressive defense during the next semi, stopping them cold (981's alliance won the match, despite racking up 3 Technical Fouls from that defense). Apparently, something went wrong with 3309's climber during the third match--despite a lack of defense (though the threat was there), they didn't climb.

4210, the other triple-bot (though no dump) at the event, was knocked out by a barrage of shots from the #6 seed's three shooters into the goals.

Re: Climbing and dumping not winning?
 

The 68 point strategy is great (18 auto + 50 dump). The trouble is that it's quite difficult to pull off. We tried to build that robot, but we decided to abandon our 30 point climber in favor of a 10 point climber for our next regional. Our climber was fairly complicated and took a long time to put together, so that led to some issues.

The thing that made the climber design extra hard was having a shooter in the way of everything. Our shooter is curved with an 8" wheel, and that takes up a ton of space, especially with the smaller frame perimeter. We were very close to the limit on all of our starting configuration space constraints, and that made it hard to create something with some margin for error.

We worked a ton on that climber, and I think we came pretty close to getting it working. But I don't think it would have been fast enough to justify its existence given how fast it's possible to score a volley of four discs. Our design would have taken more than a minute to climb and dump - at that rate, it's possible to make 12 point disc runs and have nearly as much point scoring potential. 3 pointers are way less risky, both in terms of robot damage and the risk of losing 80% of the points you were trying to score if you aren't fast enough. The fast scoring surprised us about this game - we thought it would be slower to get back and forth from the feeder and score discs, and we thought defending robots would be more successful at slowing down shooting robots than they are in practice.

So here's why I think climbing and dumping isn't winning:
1) A frisbee shooter with a 10 point hanger can outscore a pure 50 point dumper, and the former is quite a bit easier to build.
2) It's really hard to build a 50 point dumper that can also shoot 3 point shots, whereas a human loading 10 point hanger + shooter is within the reach of most teams.
3) A 50 point dumper is all or nothing (or close to it). A shooting robot can experience minor issues or defense and still score a significant fraction of its expected points.

Re: Climbing and dumping not winning?
 

Yep, it was our camera mount of all things - it was bent such that the drivers had no idea if they were lined up to climb (we'd been battling pyramid alignment issues all weekend, finally gotten them solved, only to have this happen, naturally more fixes will happen for LV).

Our team agreed early on that a 50 point climb and dump alone wouldn't cut it - an 18 point auto and telop shooting are needed to balance things out and prevent the "one-trick pony" problem. We really only had everything working together at the very end of LA, it certainly takes time.

Re: Climbing and dumping not winning?
 

Alignment, alignment, alignment that is the bane of existence of all climbers. I seen so many corner climbers including my own being slightly off and falling off. Not only you have to a have a fast climb but you need to pull yourself into alignment quickly.

That is why I really like 1114 system, they seem to have a wider window for alignment allowing for a quick alignment when they climb for the ten point mark.

No point in climbing quickly if it take you 30 seconds to line up. Your just going to be too slow. If our robot can't align quickly, we certainly won't be in the running to win Las Vegas. Though the odds of wining in LV are more related to if 987 is on your alliance or not.

Re: Climbing and dumping not winning?
 

I don't think anyone would define 1114 as a 'pure dumper'.

- Sunny G.

Re: Climbing and dumping not winning?
 

A robot with a 7 disk auto and a 10pt hang can beat a fifty point climber by basically just sitting there during teleop. With a couple rounds during teleop, then it's more like 100 points, let alone 50.

Re: Climbing and dumping not winning?
 

A robot that scores more points definitely beats a robot that scores less points.
How you score them is up to you :)

I think the important takeaway is that performing only one aspect of the game can be successful but will not guarantee dominance.

Re: Climbing and dumping not winning?
 

I'm not sure I grant the assertion here. A robot that scores 50 points every single match match is easily in the top 100 of all robots. A robot that scores 68 should be in the conversation for top 10. Any robot that consistently scores 68 points per match would win, a lot. Perhaps the OP assumes climb&dump isn't winning because there's inconsistency in the climbing and the dumping.

Re: Climbing and dumping not winning?
 

Certainly, there are inconsistencies with any type of scoring - defense, mechanical defects, etc. What you can accomplish in two minutes on an empty practice field has little bearing on what occurs in a real match. With climbing being somewhat more difficult, more can go wrong.

As MrG said, Roboteers 2481 did just that at Wisconsin. OPR of 48.7, tops at the event. They lost a very close Finals round, mostly because they tipped in F3 and spent pretty much the whole match on their back. I expect them to win at Crossroads next weekend assuming they will find a decent power shooter to pair with (their shooter is fine on their own, too).

Re: Climbing and dumping not winning?
 

1114 is in a category by themselves.

Re: Climbing and dumping not winning?
 

in the finals at boston this year at the end of the match there were very few white disks left. I think at champs there will be some strong 2 robot teams that can on there own shoot all of their white disks. Leaving the third robot to climb and dump. If on a deeper field a dumper sleeps to be the last robot picked that alliance will be hard to stop.

Re: Climbing and dumping not winning?
 

They usually are. :P

Re: Climbing and dumping not winning?
 

Not that I disagree with the assertion that 987 looks like the best team at the event, but keep in mind that 25, 330, 341, 842, and 1717 will also be there.

Re: Climbing and dumping not winning?
 

842 isn't going to Las Vegas. But they do have a very capable robot....they did not get a chance to do the "climb and dump" thing at the Phoenix regional, but the robot was built to do that. In addition to a 5 or 7 disc auto (again, they didn't have time to get it working for more than 3 discs yet) and 1.5 minutes of teleop picking up and shooting.

They don't have to spend any time lining up, they just drive to side of the pyramid and go up for 30 points in about 25 seconds.

Re: Climbing and dumping not winning?
 

Yes indeed, many more reasons to reduce climb and dump's odds;) Should be fun though. Too bad 842 won't be there, I really want to see that robot.

Re: Climbing and dumping not winning?
 

This year especially, particularly when they're paired with their favorite partner in crime.

Re: Climbing and dumping not winning?
 

The only chance the rest of FIRST has is these two aren't in the same division again.
Nothing more dangerous than an elite organisation on a mission.

Re: Climbing and dumping not winning?
 

A 987 + 1986 combo might have something to say about that.

Re: Climbing and dumping not winning?
 

If that ends up being Einstein finals I will be sure to listen to Duel of the Fates.

Re: Climbing and dumping not winning?
 

Lobbying for a pick already? Come on, you know that flattery won't work with them.

And seriously, in a category by themselves? Nonsense, there are at least four or five other teams as consistently excellent ... for sure, it is a small club.

Re: Climbing and dumping not winning?
 

1114 I agree: there are a few teams that come to mind as 20+ regional wins, plus CCA plus a CMP win or two.

2056? Nobody else more than 6 regionals old can say they've never lost a regional.

Re: Climbing and dumping not winning?
 

No, the comment made was about this year. I do not believe anyone else this year, except 987 and maybe 1986 if they can really speed up their 30pt hang, can say they are in that top tier.2056, 987, 1114 are the top 3 by a longshot; atleast for now.

Re: Climbing and dumping not winning?
 

Why does 1986 need to speed up their hang to say they're in the top tier? They have the most reliable 7-disc autonomous mode out there (something 1114 lacks entirely), and can already climb higher than 2056 or 987.

Re: Climbing and dumping not winning?
 

That's interesting I've heard people say that about teams before...(see 2010 below)

Things don't always go as expected.

Re: Climbing and dumping not winning?
 

I think they would have to speed up their 30 point hang because I see 2056 and 987 as faster shooters and 1114 can consistently climb 30 and dump 20. I'd also argue for 2056 or 33 to have the most consistent 7-disc auto. I just believe that ground pickup robots will be better this year than corner only or auto-only ground pickup robots this year; 1114 is the only exception so far because they can be nearly as fast with shooting while also being able to climb to level 3 and shoot 20 consistently.

Re: Climbing and dumping not winning?
 

Ouch. That wound is still fresh.

Re: Climbing and dumping not winning?
 

I'm a realist....I know certain combinations are much more likely to dominate Champs if given the chance, I'm just not willing to concede it yet.

I'd love to help heal it. :cool:

Re: Climbing and dumping not winning?
 

Agreed 100%, nothing is ever for certain or even close to being for certain, despite what the ChiefDelphi pundits might have to say. I just wished you had chosen an example that evoked fewer bad memories for us. ;)

And yes, it's about time we end up on the same time of the coin at champs. Playing each other 4 out of the last 6 years in the elims is a bit much!

Re: Climbing and dumping not winning?
 

Same here.
We were never good enough to be picked 1 or 2, never ended up 1 or 2 and always had to face 1 or 2 year in and year out.
We are like the team that gets stuck 6-8.
For once I hope that we get on an alliance from the 7 disc auto club. I think we are good enough to be a wing man for any of those teams.:cool:

Re: Climbing and dumping not winning?
 

I still remember sitting in the stands at CMP 2010 watching the nearly undefeated season come off the rails in disbelief.

I can understand why its still fresh.

Re: Climbing and dumping not winning?
 

My point of reference is 1114's 2008 machine which dominated Overdrive. I agree that they, along with very few others, have distinguished themselves this year. I have not seen anybody put as much distance between themselves and the rest of the field as I felt 1114 did in 2008.

Re: Climbing and dumping not winning?
 

I would argue that Simbot Quatchi (2010) was far more dominant than Simbot SS (2008), despite Simbot SS's CMP Win. Simbot Quatchi lost 3 matches in the whole season (and tied 2). Two of the 3 losses were Einstein Finals, and the third was Q100 in Curie, which they played 6v0 to ensure their #1 seed, by holding their alliance score to 0. Quatchi was undefeated prior to Championships.

Re: Climbing and dumping not winning?
 

But 2010 they were not the most dominant robot out of everyone; 2008, however, I think most in the community would agree they were the best robot/team.

Re: Climbing and dumping not winning?
 

Respectfully disagree. The 1114/469/2041 alliance's average match score through Curie elims + Einstein Semi's was 19.1. The 67/177/294 alliance's average match score through Newton Elims and Einstein Semi's (note: this alliance played 2 more matches than the Curie alliance) was 15.7 (or very near to the pair of 16's they won with). The eventual champion alliance went to three in their eliminations twice, once at the hands of 2056/1625/3138 and once at the hands of 16/1718/343.

The 1114/469/2041 alliance had the bad luck lightning strike at the worst possible time, with 2041 getting stuck in the goal.

Re: Climbing and dumping not winning?
 

Using their alliance to make the case for 1114's dominance cant work; that makes the case more for 469 because they did most of the scoring. 1114 probably could have won by themselves in 2008.

Re: Climbing and dumping not winning?
 

If W/L/T is your sole metric, maybe (just maybe) I can agree with you. But you give the perfect example of why that metric doesn't matter in 2010. The 6v0. Not every opponent 1114 faced during qualifications in 2010 even attempted to beat them.
If you factor in their performance relative to their peers, it's not even close. 1114 was heads, shoulder, forearms, and elbows above everyone else in 2008. It had some kinks to work out at the beginning of the season, but even then it was still clearly the best robot on the field. Once they got everything together, it was unstoppable. They would outscore entire elimination alliances with their hybrid mode alone. That robot was easily the most dominant machine of the 3v3 era.