$5000 for machining equipment. How far will it get us?
 

Suppose we had $5000 to spend on machining equipment (just suppose). How far could it get us. Let's explore some different options: Combo Machine, Mill and Lathe, Small CNC, CNC retrofit, Etc.

If you had no machining equipment, but you had $5000 to purchase some, what (specifically) would you buy and why? Say you already had some access to any type of machine, but not at any time you wanted. Say you want machines to have at your normal work place that you will be able to access any time.

I've been looking at the Grizzly G3102 milling machine. Is it any good? What other machines are out there.

Re: $5000 for machining equipment. How far will it get us?
 

Id say, order of preference:

Drill press

Band saw

Bridgeport

Lathe

If you have money to spend, and you have time, check for local auctions. Machine shops frequently close down, and you can buy good equipment for 1/10 the normal price.

at auctions I have seen:

Floor standing drill press: $150

Large band saws: $400

Bridgeport with all attachments (manually operated): $500

Metal Lathe: $500

Re: $5000 for machining equipment. How far will it get us?
 

I would go for an all in one it worked out really well for us. it works as drill press, mill and lathe.

Re: $5000 for machining equipment. How far will it get us?
 

To keep Ken's format, I'd say...

Drill Press

Sawz All / Band saw

Lathe

Mill

We get by without a mill, but a lathe would be helpful sometimes. Maybe if we had access to a mill, I'd change my mind. But we don't, and we DO have access to the 12 X 7 Grizzy lathe if we really need it. (It's in my house, about 30 minutes from our build area.)

Remember, you have $2500 to spend on machine tools, because the other $2500 goes to tooling for the machine. (I've spent more on tooling for my Grizzly 12X7 lathe than I did for the lathe.)

Re: $5000 for machining equipment. How far will it get us?
 

I thought this question sounded familiar. See this post. Rick asked the exact same question but the amount was only $2500. My response is still valid. Mill first then Lathe. You need something to cut up long stock with as well.

I would still look at the Rong-Fu mill/drills. (See Option 2 in the linked post).

I actually hear decent things about this bandsaw for cutting long stock in the sizes the a FIRST team would probably use.

I have been looking into one of these lathes. The lathe is on sale and I think you can even get free shipping. I am hoping that our team machine shop will get one before next year to replace the only worn out 1900 vintage Hendey lathe we have now.

Always keep in mind that the machines are only half the cost. You will probably spend at least as much on tooling (collets, vises, end mills, turning tools, etc.)

Re: $5000 for machining equipment. How far will it get us?
 

OK, this is going to take a while... First off, there are already some good discussions on these topics here and here. My comments below are updates of some of this information.

Based on the phrasing of the question, are we correct to assume that you are not asking about what one might consider "traditional" shop equipment such as bandsaw, table saws, drill presses, etc, but are particularly interested in metalworking equipment? Assuming so, we will stick strictly to the latter. With that, the recommended list would be:

1-5. Lathe
6. Mill or beefy mill/drill
7. All the tooling you can afford for the above two items
8. Metal-cutting bandsaw
9. Digital Read Out (DRO) for the above
10. CNC upgrade kit for mill

If there is only one metalworking tool you can afford, you have to start with a lathe. I recognize that this opinion is contrary to the earlier posts, but I am adamant about this one. Starting with this one tool you can, given sufficient time, raw materials, and some basic machining skills, make every other machine tool you will need (in fact, that is how apprentice machinists used to learn - by making their own shop tools, up to and including building new machine tools). There is a great series of books on this by Dave Gingery, if you ever have the time. And with a vertical X-Y table mounted to the cross-slide, you can perform most basic milling operations on the lathe. You will not have an equivalent capability to perform turning operations on the mill (yes, it is possible, but it is not as easy).

Next, look at your budget. One of the fundamental truths associated with buying any machine tool (mill, lathe, shaper, surface grinder, etc.) is that the associated tooling will cost as much - if not more - than the basic tool itself. So if your full budget is $5000, you need to be looking at lathes and mills that are in the $1000-1500 range per machine. So right from the start, you can eliminate anything like a brand new Bridgeport or large free-standing model. You are in the range of a bench top mill/drill, or a bench top mini-mill, or maybe a used floorstanding machine (if you are willing to put in the time to refurbish it properly). Buying your lathe or mill is only the beginning of the investment. Unless you know how (and have the time) to make all your own tooling, plan on spending AT LEAST as much as you spend on the lathe/mill for the additional tooling you will need. For the lathe, things like backplates, 4-jaw chucks, cutting tools, tailstock chucks, free centers, collet sets, tool post fixtures, center indicators, tailstock die holders, cutoff tools, tool post grinders, knurling tools, etc. all add up fast. On the mill clamping kits, cutting heads, mill holders, rotary tables, tilt tables, boring heads, edge/center finders, etc. will also create quite a dent in your wallet.

Many of the lathes and mills sold by Grizzly, Harbor Freight, Enco, MSC, Smithy, and others as "their" brands really all come from the same sources, and they just stick their labels on the machines. Most of the lower-end lathes and mills come from either Taiwan or China. Find out where the machine was made - there is a BIG difference in quality. Many of the Taiwan imports come from Rong Fu, and are good, solid machines (high quality castings, good precision on the ground surfaces, solid pulley/gear covers, etc.). Many of the Chinese import machines tend to be copies of the Rong Fu designs, but with lower quality (blowouts in the castings that have been filled with Bondo, flat grinding on the lathe ways with no oil-retention scraping, cheap sheet metal covers, etc.).

Once you start looking seriously at machines, look for and buy the largest capacity machine you can afford. If you think you only need a milling machine with an 8x24" table, but you can afford one with a 10x36" table, always pay the extra price and get the larger one. Fundamental truth number two is "the largest piece of material you have to machine will always be two inches larger than your machine can handle." A large machine can always work on small parts, but the inverse is not always true. Even if you can't think of anything on your robot that will need a big capacity machine, you never know what you will want to work on during the off-season or next year. The reality is, bigger is better. Get the largest lathe and mill you can afford and fit in your shop. The larger machines will have larger chucks and spindles, hence a larger rotating mass during cutting operations. The larger rotating mass acts as a big flywheel, making for smoother cuts. The larger machines also provide more rigid support for the tool post and tooling, reducing chatter.

Make sure you know (or can find someone who knows) how to set up the machine. It is not as simple as opening up the crate and tossing it on the stand. The lathe has to be mounted on a VERY solid support (think about really big slabs of concrete, or at the very least a really heavy workbench), and preferably bolted to the floor. To get good performance and precision, it must be very accurately leveled in all dimensions. The lathe bed needs to be checked carefully for twist and spindle alignment. The mill table needs to be leveled and the head trammed in. This is a straightforward process if you know what you are doing, but probably not something you want to try alone if you have never seen it done before.

Similarly, you need to worry about maintenance of the machine as well as the set-up. Is the manufacturer still in business and/or is there a distributor network for spare and replacement parts if you need any? Is the tooling interface a standard size, so tooling will be readily available and inexpensive? Will you have access to other people that have used this make/model machine that you can turn to if you need help? Time for fundamental truth number three: "when your made-in-the-USA machine tools breaks, the part needing replacement is the one piece that was manufactured by a defunct company formerly located in Eastern Slobovia in a factory that now produces shower curtain rings. Your custom-made replacement part will cost more than the original price of the whole machine tool." Having access to a bunch of other owners of the model XYZ mill will help you find sources for these replacement parts (one great resource is on-line user groups - check Yahoo.com for "model XYZ mill users" or whatever).

If you have someone on your team that knows what to look for (any retired - or active - machinists on your team?), consider buying a used lathe and mill. If you know what to look for and can avoid getting scammed, you can get some great deals on used machines. I picked up the 12x27" lathe that I have in my shop as a used machine for 20% of the original purchase price, and all the basic-to-moderate tooling came with it. I knew the person that owned it, and knew the entire history of the machine, so it was a good deal. eBay has some nice deals, but be sure it is a machine that you can inspect before final purchase.

If you can, get a lathe with a quick-change gearbox. Most of the larger models have them (typically, anything over a 10-inch swing and/or 30-inch bed will have them). You will save yourself lots of time and frustration associated with dealing with change gears if you get this option (and save a lot of re-training time as student operators change from year-to-year; it is a lot faster to teach someone how to use the gearbox than it is to teach them how to change the gear sets). Same thing for the lathe tool post - get a quick-change version if you can, and one that allows easy adjustment of the tool height. It will make life much easier.

I know I will get some disagreements here, but I recommend you stay away from combination machines (lathe/mills, lathe/mill/drills, etc.). In my experience (and that of a lot of people I have talked with), these machines are designed to do too many things and to cost too little for the careful design they really need. As a result, they don't do anything really well. I have never been happy with the accuracy or precision of any of the combination machines I have used.

Since you specifically mentioned the Grizzly 3102, it is worth suggesting that you also look at the Rong-Fu model JF-45. It is the source machine for the Grizzly 3102, which is basically a copy of the Rong-Fu design. Note that in the U.S. many of the directly imported Rong-Fu machines are re-labeled as "JFC" which is their primary U.S. distributor. It is in the same price range as the Grizzly model. They use R-8 tooling, which is commonly available. There are several on-line groups (such as the Yahoo Mill-Drill group) that are very active and helpful. If you go this route, be sure and look for the Rong-Fu model, which is made in Taiwan. They are good quality machines, apparently made by a company that still gives a crap about quality and tolerances. Problem reports on them are infrequent. There are several makes of Chinese knock-off copies, most of which have real problems ranging from sand-filled castings to skewed table ways to horrible backlash problems on all axes. Avoid them like the plague. Enco, MSC, Grizzly, and Penn Tools all have carried both original Rong-Fu machine tools as well as the cheap clones - if you buy from any of the re-market distributors make sure you know which version you are getting.

There are lots of on-line resources and discussion groups you can use to find out more information and get a lot of help (both before and after you buy). Here are a few resources to check:

7x10minilathe - Yahoo Groups board for owners of the Chinese 7x10 minilathes marketed by Harbor Freight, Grizzly, etc.

9x20Lathe - Yahoo Groups board for owners of the imported 9 x 20 Lathes sold by Jet, Enco, Harbor Freight, and others.

Bench Mill/Drills - Yahoo Groups board for owners of metalworking mill/drills made by Rong Fu and the knock-off clones (but includes a lot of discussion on lathes as well)

Machinists Workshop - check the "general" board for info on lathes and other tools

Metalworking Web Sites - good index of metalworking tools and suppliers, with lots of links to additional information and resources

-dave

Re: $5000 for machining equipment. How far will it get us?
 

anyone in the rochester, NY area - Kodak has a bunch of machine shop equip up for auction: mills, lathes, drill presses, a couple bridgports...

stuff like this:
http://www.goindustry.com/en/equipme...OfferID=825222
http://www.goindustry.com/en/equipme...OfferID=830583

ends feb 14th - online bidding

top page of auction here: http://www.goindustry.com/en/saledet...sp?SaleID=5511

Re: $5000 for machining equipment. How far will it get us?
 

Thanks for the lengthy and detailed answer Dave. And thanks for the answers everyone. Keep them coming.

The machining equipment Harbor Freight sells comes from various manufacturers. Is any of it good or okay quality? If so, which exact model(s)?

Also, I'm guessing we cannot make parts which need a bigger area of machining on the Y axis bigger than the Y travel allows for. Is this right? So I'm guessing a Y travel of something like 6" won't be enough for some common robot stuff.

Are there any small turnkey CNC mills out there in this price range? The MaxNC ones are but they don't seem powerful enough.

In any setup, how do you deal with backlash? DRO? How much would DRO be on something like the Rong-Fu mill?

Re: $5000 for machining equipment. How far will it get us?
 

I'm not sure as to the size limitations of your machining capabilities, but in starting a team this year with a converted copy room and a $700 total tool budget, here's what we opted for:

1. Delta Shopmaster 9" bandsaw ($99)
2. Delta Shopmaster Table top Drill Press ($99)
3. Delta Shopmaster 2-Wheel Grinder ($59)

All of the Delta products have served us very well so far, and one of the biggest advantages is that we can have all 3 machines creating totally different parts. When considering a combo, I think it is important to note that there is a high potential for a wait-list...everyone waiting to have their part made from the same machine.


Now, assuming that you aren't starting from scratch, is your team held in a high school? With many school districts/states eliminating technology classes, there are often older but still maintained machines that are sitting dormant in another building. A team I was previously a member of got a full vertical mill as well as a lathe for free...we just had to politely ask the principal and then superintendent if there were any machines that could be transferred in. It's always worth a shot, and you might luck out by getting something for free...

Re: $5000 for machining equipment. How far will it get us?
 

A couple of years ago we got a Smithy 3 in 1 and it suffices for most of the jobs we do - but the cost of tooling is significant, and we have now spent 2x the amount of the mill on the tooling (Rotary indexer, 4 Jaw Chuck, clamps, Vice, indicators, cutters, boring head, and the Digital Read Out).

Last year we got a grant and purchased a small benchtop CNC by Microkinetics and when I say small, I mean small. But we use it now a lot to make mounting plates for motors or transmission plates where the mounting holes need to be tight in tolerance or if you need a .498" hole to press fit that bronze bearing etc... The max piece it will mill is 3.75" x 7". So we often use 4" bar stock or smaller where the cuts are no more that 3.75" from one edge. It's faster for students to learn to use than all the components needed to make the same part on the manual mill. We write our own G-Code, but you may be able to get MAsterCam donated, although you end up spending more time in MasterCam than just writing the code yourself.

The CNC cost came to about $4000 and there's not a lot of tooling you can get for it because of its limited size (we just have a couple of endmills of diferent sizes like 1/8", 3/16", and 1/4"). Just a lot of patience with it as it only takes off .05" with each pass and you have to clear the chips out of it with a shop vac constantly.

I included some pics of parts we made this year on the CNC. I don't mean to let this thread get off topic, but I think its unrealistic (not impossible) that you'll get a mill or lathe up and running for $5000. Other dire shop tools are a horizontal band saw (~$200), Drill press, and don't forget how useful a disc/belt sander is also.

Re: $5000 for machining equipment. How far will it get us?
 

Everyone should take 5 minutes and really read Dave's post above from start to finish. Those are very wise words from a very wise man. I second everything he said in the post including the negative remarks about combo machines except for the first 5 items on his list. ;) While I agree that for most machine shops the lathe should be first and that you can make any tools you need with a lathe, I personally, think a mill would be #1 on the list. As an apprentice machinist it would be very instructive to "build your own mill" from a lathe, however, I don't think that level of instruction is required for most FIRST teams. Our team has access to both a (very old wornout) mill and a lathe and while we use both because we have them I think we could get by better with just the mill than the lathe. We tend to make more "flat" things like brackets with slots or counterbores than we do "round" things other than shafts and spacers. Any of the shafts and spacers we have made so far this year could have been made with a hand hacksaw and squared off to length on the mill using a vise or v-blocks and an end mill. It would have been much more difficult to cut a keyway along the length of the shaft with only a lathe. The counter bores could be done on either the mill or the lathe but the mill took much less setup time. While it is possible to do some pretty nifty things on a lathe only if you also have a 4 jaw chuck and a compound mounted vertical x/y table it is just so much easier on a mill. To each there own, that's just my opinion. The bottom line is either way if you get a lathe then about a week later you will want a mill and vice-versa.

Another bit of advice when purchasing a lathe is pay attention to the spindle bore. The larger the bore the larger diameter material you can poke through and work with and the less you have to rely on a steady rest farther out from your chuck.

Re: $5000 for machining equipment. How far will it get us?
 

...and that is fundamental truth number four!

-dave

Re: $5000 for machining equipment. How far will it get us?
 

OK, just so there is no confusion concerning the Rong-Fu mills being discussed here are the links to Penn Tools who sell the true Rong-Fu mill/drills:

So-So: RF-25 1HP 110V 1 Phase $975

Good: RF-31 2HP 110/220V 1 Phase $1150

Better: RF-40 $2195

Best: JFC-45 1.5HP 110/220V 1 Phase $2595

You probably want to stay away from the 3-Phase power units.

Again, there are other places that sell the real Rong-Fu or lesser quality knock-offs including Enco, Grizzley, Wholesale Tools, and others.

So for your $5000 you should be able to get EITHER a nice benchtop Rong-Fu mill/drill and tooling OR a benchtop lathe and tooling but probably not both unless you went with the small 7x lathes and mini-mills from Harbor Freight, etc. or found some good used equipment locally. Just don't underestimate the cost of tooling and accessories.

Mr. Lavery, do you have any opinions on the JET line of these benchtop mill/drills and lathes. Are they good quality or in the cheap knock-off category? I have no experience with JET tools and am curious. Examples: JET mill/drills (bottom 3) and JET Lathe. The JET mill/drills seem more expensive than the comparable real Rong-Fu RF-25/31 mill/drills but the lathes seem pretty reasonable price-wise. I am just wondering about the quality. Our machine shop sponsor is looking into getting one of these JET lathes before next season.

Re: $5000 for machining equipment. How far will it get us?
 

Is this Harbor Freight model actually a Rong Fu? http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/cta...emnumber=33686 Looks similar. I can get this one for $720 new.

Also, can someone explain to me the difference of round column versus dovetail column? I've only used old large bridgeports, no small machines. I read somewhere that on the round column if you move the Z position you lose your X and Y position. This isn't true is it?

Also, are there any mills already equipped with DRO or any inexpensive DRO packages.

I saw a Jet full size mill (sits on floor) with DRO for $3500 that seemed attractive but that's a bit out of our price range.

If we bought machining equipment, we'd probably want a mill and a lathe. Although I'm guessing the lathe capacity wouldn't need to be so large.

Re: $5000 for machining equipment. How far will it get us?
 

Oh no! That mill/drill is not a true Rong-Fu but one of the cheap knock offs that Dave was talking about in his lengthy post above. It is far less quality built and will likely have significant backlash in the leadscrews and pretty poor castings and an uneven table. You would be much better off with a used mill than one of those.

Yep that's true, more or less. A round column is like a drill press. You know how when you move the table on a drill press up or down on the column it is almost impossible to get it exactly the same? It is the same on a round column mill/drill. A dovetail/square column mill drill allows the distance between the table and the head to be adjusted without loosing the setup alignment.

Would you be inclined to make one yourself? Check out the Shumatech DRO-350. There is also a Yahoo group for the Shumatech DRO-350 project. Do a little research about it and you may be surprised. It's a pretty neat project if you are so inclined.

Re: $5000 for machining equipment. How far will it get us?
 

i agree with the person above me on this one. I dont know brands off hand but i do shop @ harbor frieght often <happy>they just opened one 15 mins from my house</happy> and they are great for small tools and other hand tools for the team but large tools that would be used often and take much "abuse" (not in a negative way but just use) will wear out quickly. So stick to a more reputable brand what ever you choose.

Re: $5000 for machining equipment. How far will it get us?
 

We make mills and lathes for educational purposes. We use the Prolight 3000 and 1000 with out first team.


http://www.intelitek.com/products/menu.asp?cid=1&pid=2

Re: $5000 for machining equipment. How far will it get us?
 

I can't speak for their metal working tools, but I have their JWBS-14MW 14 in wood/metal (3-speed) bandsaw and am quite satisfied with the quality of the machine. It compares well with the better Delta machines. The castings are solid and true, and the adjustments are easy to use and stay set pretty well. The included accessories (fence, square) are cheap, though.

Re: $5000 for machining equipment. How far will it get us?
 

Our team went through this with $4000. we ended up buying a bridgeport.. but here are the other options we considered

1. Sieg X2 http://www.grizzly.com/products/G8689
2. Sieg X3 http://www.grizzly.com/products/G0463
3. ZAY http://www.lathemaster.com/HEAVYDUTY...E%207045FG.htm
4. IH Mill. http://www.industrialhobbies.com/
5. Used bridgeport www.craigslist.com

We went with 5, why? we found a great deal for a very un-worn bridgeport (nearly pristine) with a good DRO, power feed, full set of precision collets. With a vari-speed head.
IMO the X2 has serious rigidity issues, but its good for whatever work FIRST requires (+-2~3 mil) and you can take it to regionals (reasonably)
X3 is much better, more rigid, and people have supposedly held mil tolerance.. so I guess its pretty good there
the ZAY and IH are by the same manufacturer, the IH is just HUGE and has hardened gears, as well as a CNC option. the free shipping also makes it worth it... we were about to go with the IH mill when we found the bridgeport deal.

Honestly, just pick a dovetail column mill, its more rigid, doesnt need re-center every time z is changed... or a knee mill (better, but more expensive).

Also, I'm not sure if used equipment is the best way to go.. fixing the machine can be as much of a challenge in and of itself..

Tatsu

Recommended Tools and Machinery for Your Team's Machine Shop
 

Hi All,

As you know, the first Hawaii regional will be held next year. In preparation for the event, we are investigating what it would take to build a mobile machine shop. While we can always use the College of Engineering's machine shop, a mobile shop at the venue would be a lot more convenient for the teams. With that said, does anyone have any suggestions for equipment?

I figure we need at least the following:

1. Drill Press
2. Band Saw
3. Bench Lathe (9"x20", 12"x24")
4. Bench Mill (Round or Square Column with DRO)
5. Welder (TIG, Mig or do we need both?)

Also, could someone from team 254 give me some insight about the NASA Ames Mobile shop? perhaps some pictures. How about other mobile shops? Have these machine shops been able to serve most teams needs? For example, I think the Ames shop has a 9" x 20" Jet bench lathe. Looks a little small, but if it provides what teams need at the event, then small is good since this will be a mobile shop.

Model numbers and where to buy would be greatly appreciated.

Re: Mobile Machine Shop Equipment for new Hawaii Regional
 

Make sure a good arbor press and keyway broach set is on that list.

Re: Mobile Machine Shop Equipment for new Hawaii Regional
 

I'll bring my camera to work on monday and take some pictures of the inside of the trailer so you can see exactly what's there/how it's laid out.

off the top of my head, here are most of the tools inside--

Delta 10" Bandsaw
8" Delta Bench Grinder (might be 6")
Delta Belt/Disc Sander
12" Delta Drill Press
JET 9x20 belt drive bench lathe The machinist who runs the lathe in the trailer at the events has mentioned that he wished the lathe was a little bigger, but there isn't much between a 9x20 and 13x40 (which is way too big for a trailer).
Rong Fu RF-45 Square Column Mill/Drill(We used to have the JET JMD-18 in the trailer, and the RF-45 is MUCH nicer. Round column mill drills are much more of a pain to use, and the RF-45 just feels more well built. It's definitely worth the extra money. Whatever you get, you should get a DRO for the x and y axes.)

Power tools:

DeWalt 14.4V Cordless Drill
DeWalt XRP 18V Cordless Reciprocating Saw
DeWalt XRP 18V Cordless Jigsaw

Husky 2.0 HP 26 Gal. Vertical Air Compressor
Various air tools:die grinder, air drill, 3" cut off saw

TIG welder

Arbor Press

Other various hand tools, and complete tooling sets for above machines.

Re: Mobile Machine Shop Equipment for new Hawaii Regional
 

I happened to have a few pics to get you through...Attachment 5532

Attachment 5533

Re: Mobile Machine Shop Equipment for new Hawaii Regional
 

Sanddrag, good suggestion about the press and broach set. Don't see how I missed that one, especially when it gets used a lot in our school shop.

Cory, thank you for the detailed list. Yes, I certainly would appreciate some additional pictures. Would be great to show the rest of the Regional Planning Committee. At this point, I think your shop is the best model we can follow. Could you also take a picture of the outside of the trailer? I guess the square column dovetail mill drill is the way to go. You're right, not too many lathes in between 9" and 13". Grizzly has a few, so I'll take a closer look at these.

Yodameister, thanks for the headstart.

I'm really pushing hard for a mobile shop so your suggestions are greatly appreciated. Like I said, we can always use the University's shop for harder fixes, but there is nothing like having some machining capabilities in the venue itself.

Re: Mobile Machine Shop Equipment for new Hawaii Regional
 

I have one of these as well

Re: Mobile Machine Shop Equipment for new Hawaii Regional
 

There are several import lathes that are slightly larger than the typical "9 x 19" pattern, and probably better. There are 10", 11" and 12" models with beds of 22" to 26". Weights range from 400 to 1,000 pounds. Check www.Grizzly.com. If you can find a decent older American bench lathe, so much the better. I have an old Clausing 12" x 24" that weighs in at 1,100 pounds or so. It is also available in a 36" model. It's pretty big. South Bend and others like it are pretty nice.

The Rong Fu RF45 and ZAY7045 mills (clones) are not bad from what I hear. They are about 600 to 700 pounds or so.

Re: Mobile Machine Shop Equipment for new Hawaii Regional
 

Hi Cory,
Your mill (Rong Fu RF-45 Square Column Mill/Drill) appears to require 220V, 3 phase. Can you describe briefly how the trailer is set-up for power?

Re: Mobile Machine Shop Equipment for new Hawaii Regional
 

You can get the same mill in single phase as well. It just costs about $500 more.

I think ours is single phase, but I've never checked, so I'm not entirely sure.

Re: Mobile Machine Shop Equipment for new Hawaii Regional
 

We are also in the process of working on a mobile machine shop trailer/box truck style set up to present to some of our sponsors. I will post a tentative write up of our proposal soon, its very basic and informal, partially because most of us ( On Team 1902 ) are relatively new to machining, and partially because formality isn't as important right now as getting down to brass tacks.

Could you also give an update about how far you've come with your experience in making the mobile machine shop so far? Also what decisions have you made so far and why?

Hopefully we can help each other out a bit here.

Re: Mobile Machine Shop Equipment for new Hawaii Regional
 

If it was my choice I'd be looking for a 26 foot sea container for the shop.
You could set it in the back lot of where you build your robot.. then just pick it up with a roll back to bring it where you want it.

Either a sea container or a small pup trailer (short road trailer) I'm sure some trucking company could be talked into hauling it where you want it to go. :)

Recommended Tools and Machinery for Your Team's Machine Shop
 

Hi All
I had a great time volunteering in the machine shops at Las Vegas and Phoenix
Seeing old friends and making new ones is always fun,
In talking with the Students and Mentors I went and opened my mouth and said I could put a small table top machine shop together for about $1500.00
Now I am happy to say my mouth is foot free!
The machines and tooling in the following list are not the “Top of the Line” but are of proven quality and I have either purchased or have personal experience with each tool listed and should provide a good starter shop for robotics or any other machine projects
(I converted the same mill to CNC about 2 years ago for less then $800.00)

Harbor Freight (http://www.harborfreight.com)
1pc Mini Mill (R8) #44991-2VGA $489.99
1pc Mini Lathe 7x10” #93212-2VGA $399.99
1pc Drill Press ½” #38119-0VGA $ 59.99
1pc Band Saw #93762-1VGA $199.99
1pc Grinder 8” #90022-0VGA $ 54.99
1pc Drill Chuck (2mt) #42340-2VGA $ 7.99
ST $1212.94
CDCO (http://www.cdcotools.com)
1pc Mill Vise 4” #21003 $ 95.00
1pc Clamp Kit #24802 $ 38.00
1set Parallels #37201 $ 27.00
1pc Drill Chuck #25003 $ 10.00
1pc Arbor (5/8) #21303 $ 4.00
1pc Edge finder #60601 $ 5.00
1pc Wiggler #60603 $ 6.00
1set End Mills #45901 $ 48.00
ST $ 314.00
Enco (http://www.use-enco.com
1set Lathe tools #383-4300 $ 37.95
1set R8 Collets #231-4611 $ 37.95
ST $ 75.90
TOTAL $1521.84

This is a very basic setup and will fit on a 3’x8’ table (band saw under)
Taxes and Shipping is not include
If there is an interest I can put together some other packages for people with a more space / bigger budget
Please let me know what you would like to see
Have Fun
Geo.

PS its going to be great to see what everyone else comes up with,

Re: $1500.00 Machine shop
 

I would probably throw in a test indicator (CDCO 26013) for aligning the mill vise and mill head along with the tail stock on the lathe. Its also a good idea to replace the blade on the HF band-saw with a bi-metal (HF 91029-4VGA) one because the included one stinks. Any reason to include both a edge-finder and a wiggler, don't they both do the same thing? The only other thing I would add would be a full set of drill bits (CDCO 42203), and a digital caliper (CDCO 31505) if the team does not already have one. Other then that it looks like a very nice setup for the money.

Re: $1500.00 Machine shop
 

How about a regular caliper. (not a digital one) Teach the studnets how to read an "old fashioned tool".

One of my pet peeves is digital clocks. I asked a student to look at my watch (which I had taken off and put on the bench) and tell me what time it was. They could not tell me because it was an "old fashioned dial type, with hands".

Re: $1500.00 Machine shop
 

Its really personal preference, I think digital's are easier to read quickly and will keep you from making silly mistakes. I have used both and I much rather have a digital set. Digital calipers are so cheap anyway it makes no sense to get dial ones.

Get a set of mics to teach your kids how to read "old fashioned tools". It will keep them busy for a while and quite entertained.

Re: $1500.00 Machine shop
 

Dial calipers are nice, but does anyone teach their students how to read the pre-dial style calipers?

It seems like every year or two we end up teaching a a whole new crew how to read our non-dial 3ft calipers or how to use the cadillac gages on the surface plate for making precise measurements.

On the topic however, this is a great list of small tools that every team could use. I don't know how teams get away without having a lathe of some kind to turn shafts. That to me is the most crucial tool to start with. because I have seen plenty of clever ways to use fixtures to get around not having a mill.

Re: $1500.00 Machine shop
 

Hi Low :)
Great suggestions
I went with the basics for the machines; but an Indicator would definitely be a good addition
You can indicate the vise with the edge finder or the wiggler, (Old School, it takes time but it works) looking back on this those two do overlap some, depending on what sets you have.
I would have liked to find a different saw but this one was as universal as I could find for the price (I purchased one in 1980 and it is still in use) and agree Bimetal blades are the way to go.
Drills and Calibers are a must and a set of Micrometers (0 – 3) would be nice too.
But there was only so much room in $1.5k

for my $.02 on calibers, I teach them all,
Vernier scail calipers are hard to read, but they are a basic skill
Dial calipers skip
Some of the Digitals calipers have a progressive error
Geo.

Re: $1500.00 Machine shop
 

I don't like digital calipers at all. I much prefer a dial caliper. I think using a dial caliper also makes you more conscientious of the fact that you cannot measure a part with +-.0001 accuracy, even though the digital calipers read out to that decimal point.

Re: $1500.00 Machine shop
 

Good stuff George!

I'd skip the mill, and get a bigger lathe....

Re: $1500.00 Machine shop
 

I prefer to use a dial caliper, personal preference. In my engineering classes we are taught to use a pre-dial caliper before we can use our own dial or digital ones. Thanks to robotics I had already learned how to use these tools.

As for the list, looks great. i'll have to forward this on to my team back home to see if there is anything they want to add to the shop this year.

Re: $1500.00 Machine shop
 

How do you teach a student CW/CCW with a digital watch?

Re: $1500.00 Machine shop
 

The fact that your using a caliper and not a mic should tell you that read lower then .0001 would be inaccurate. My digital calipers don't even read that low anyway. Either way for most robotics applications there is no need to get any closer then within a few thousands (unless we are talking about bearing bores). Not to mention that getting within +-.0001 on these small and cheap machines would be hard at the least.

Dial or Digital, whatever! Just get something that can measure accurately to within +-.001.

Re: $1500.00 Machine shop
 

If I know anything about Harbor Fright tools, it's that it is always a bad idea to use their blades. I've seen way too many blades snap, and cutting discs rip themselves apart at high speed.

Just before the season this year I was building a new tailgate for my truck my friend was using a HF grinding Disc in my Ryobi. It broke in half, and caught him in the safety glasses and the bridge of his nose.

Steer clear.

Re: $1500.00 Machine shop
 

I've used both the mini mill and mini lathe on the list and they are good for the money, but machining steel will be quite a chore.

Personally, I would spend more money on the tooling because the light-duty machines can't handle much in the way of cutting forces, and nicer tooling will help that.

Re: $1500.00 Machine shop
 

People who use measuring tools all the time know this, but if they average person sees a dimension of 2.4155 they're going to think it's accurate to that last decimal place, when in reality calipers aren't even very good for .001

Re: $1500.00 Machine shop
 

I own this band-saw and I use these blades on it. They work great and hold up just fine. With the right tension and coolant they will last you all build season. Just like with any bandsaw, treat your blades well and they will last longer (aka, don't feed to fast or jam the blade into the material). I believe if you want a higher quality blade mcmaster sells them with the right length/thickness and tooth count.

Btw, its a great little saw but do be warned its about impossible to get it to cut straight. Makes short work of cutting off stock for the mill and the lathe.

Re: $1500.00 Machine shop
 

For our off-seasons, we ought to rig a big clock with a dial to indicate match duration......it would make the point that the visual analog gives more data than a digital read-out!

And maybe a non-digital scale might help too!;)

Re: $1500.00 Machine shop
 

For the small additional cost, I'd recommend the 44836-2VGA drill press, to get the bigger swing, the rack and pinion, and the 12 speeds. I would swap the chuck for a 1/2" one from LittleMachineShop though, as the 5/8" one that comes on it doesn't go down less than about 1/8". What's nice about this drill press, is it has an MT2 with tang drive spindle, so you can put in large taper-shank bits. It has been on sale for $99. I picked up a floor model for $65.

For a lathe, I'd highly recommend the 44859-1VGA "8x12" (actually 8x14) over the 7x10. It is physically about twice the size, and a much more powerful and higher quality machine. It often goes on sale for about $540.

And remember, there is always a 20% off coupon out there for Harbor Freight if you look around.

Re: $1500.00 Machine shop
 

Sand Drag
I do agree the 8x12 lathe is better,
(Do Not buy the 9x20 a real piece of…………. shaving cream)
As for it and the drill press it came down to $$ and space limitations
Geo.

Re: $1500.00 Machine shop
 

Hm. More questions than answers for this thread. I must be slipping...OK, you got me: What is a Cadillac Gauge? I Googles it but, well, you can see for yourself what I got.
Indeed they do; does anyone know how to un-skip one? We have a nice Starrett that someone made skip, and it just bugs me that ")" is not anywhere near vertical.
Rotate the watch one way, then the other...:rolleyes:

I make it a point to teach the vernier caliper and vernier micrometer; both are super valuable and it's a good skill to have. I don't bother with the slide rule anymore, though - too easy to forget, replacements are ubiquitous.

Even IF we could ever get a CNC (anything), I'd still want the kids to learn a manual machine. You just learn so much more feeling the cut with your fingers. Maybe an exception would be a laser/water/plasma X Y cutter for sheet goods; rare is the machinist that cuts a perfect straight or curve by hand with a torch. Kids can always use a saw; they are somewhat intuitive.

One of the first things we cover in Pi-Tech (Spet-Dec each year) is hand tools; You'd be surprised how many kids have never seen a Yankee Screwdriver. Cool High Tech :D Plus, when i ask for a 5/8" box wrench or ball peen hammer or (whatever) I want the kid getting it to have a clue as to what s/he should return with.

Back to the original post: I agree with squirrel, skip the mill and get a better lathe. It is easier to get past a milling problem than a turning one. And, in a pinch, a solid drill press and X Y vise will allow for light milling (but not as a steady diet).

Overall, a great shop setup. Thanks!

Re: $1500.00 Machine shop
 

I feel like you should somehow include a sander in there. Out of all the tools we use in our metals lab in college, the belt sander always has a line of people behind it. It's just such a useful tool. Simply by changing the belts you are able to quickly abrade material such as you do with a grinder, or put on a finer belt and be able to bring something down to a fairly close tolerance.
Just from personal experience, if I were to only have $1500 to spend, while I do overall like your list, I feel like a sander would go much further than a grinder.

Re: $1500.00 Machine shop
 

Okay, I've been wondering about this for a while: Is there any reason not to chuck endmills in a drill press with an X-Y vise and use it as a mill?

Re: $1500.00 Machine shop
 

I have both the mini-mill and mini-lathe being discussed in this thread. Actually I have a couple of each from different vendors and setup differently. They are good machines for the money but they are very limited in capacity. If you have a small shop and/or a limited budget and limited capacity needs they are a good option. If anyone is considering buying either (or both) of these machines think of them more as a “kit” than a ready to run machine. The first thing you are going to want to do when you uncrate these machines is completely disassemble, clean, debur, and then rebuild and adjust the machine before you ever even plug it in and turn it on. When I say disassemble I mean COMPLETELY. You will be surprised what you will find in all the nooks a crannies. The fit and finish on these machines lacks a lot to be desired out of the box but if you think of them as a kit that has been pre-assembled to show you what goes where but that you are supposed to “finish” then you can have a good machine, albeit small and limited, for a reasonable price. Don't be afraid of this whole rebuild concept on these machines. They aren't that complicated and you will learn all the in's and out's of the machine along the way. We build robots remember. These machines should be a snap to tear down and rebuild for anyone that has made it through a 6 week FRC build season!

There are endless modifications that can be made to these machines as well to “customize them” and make them “better”. DROs are a popular mod as the dials are a bit quirky especially if you get one of the versions that aren’t true inch. There are also many folks out there that have CNCd these little guys. If you are considering these machines I suggest you start reading up on them here: www.mini-lathe.com. There is an endless amount of great information on both the mini-lathe and mini-lathe at that site.

There are lots of variations of both of these machines out there. Shop around. The cheapest source (usually Harbor Freight) isn’t always better. For example, the mini-lathe Harbor Freight sells is a 7x10. Most other vendors sell the 7x12 version, which oddly enough is actually 4” longer than the 7x10. H.F. sort of cheats in the way they measure theirs. Most people would call the H.F. version a 7x8 rather than a 7x10. That 4" is HUGE on one of these things. For that reason alone I would stay clear of the H.F. 7x10 machine. IIRC H.F. has also started selling a 7x12 version as well. On the other hand, Micro-Mark sells a new 7x16 version of the mini-lathe that also has a brushless motor for $750. If the thought of a lathe “kit” turns you off and you just want to take it out of the box and start making chips then you should probably stick with the Micro-Mark 7x16 as the fit and finish are supposed to be the best on them. You get what you pay for…

If you are considering these machines but are worried about replacement parts and accessories have no fear. Little Machine Shop has every part for any of the variations of these machines you might ever need. LMS also carries lots of great accessories and tooling targeted at these size machines and at the “non-professional” (i.e. hobby) machinist. LMS sells a larger replacement XY table for the mini-mill that really adds a lot of table area over the original. Chris and all the folks at LMS are all top notch and have always been super to deal with.

If you are interested in the 8x14 lathe also being discussed in this thread you should also checkout LatheMaster. LatheMaster sells their version of the 8x14 lathe also being sold by Harbor Freight which I have been told has better fit and finish for more money (of course). LatheMaster also sells a 9x30 version of the H.F. 9x20. One of the issues with the 8x and 9x machines is they do not have a reverse gear but that may or may not be an issue for you. I would guess there is a limited need for left hand threading on an FRC bot anyway. LatheMaster also sells some parts and accessories for these machines such as gear sets, etc. but you can also get parts for them at LMS. LatheMaster also has some decent small mills that are a step up in size from the mini-mill that may be worth a look for some teams. Finally, good or bad keep in mind that the 8x14 lathe is MUCH heavier than the 7x mini-lathes. I have seen a lot of the 7x mini-lathes in various team’s pits over the years. The 7x machines are reasonably portable. The 8x machines are not. Something to think about if you feel the need to have a lathe in your pit at competition.

Re: $1500.00 Machine shop
 

OMG YES! VERY, VERY, VERY BAD IDEA! The spindle bearings in a drill press are NOT designed to take a side load. Try it and it will be the fast road to ruining your part and possible getting yourself hurt.

Re: $1500.00 Machine shop
 

No worries, I haven't tried it. The reason it doesn't work is the spindle bearings, though? I knew it was a bad idea, I just didn't know why.

Re: $1500.00 Machine shop
 

I hate digital calipers the same as I hate wireless mice and keyboards:

Their batteries are always dead whenever I need them the most!

Re: $1500.00 Machine shop
 

Well "work" is a relative term I guess. Sure you can do it. Yeah, it might "work" if you take very light cuts as Don says in a pinch. Problem is there isn't a good way to know how light or heavy of a cut you can get away with before things go wrong. Also, the accuracy of chucking up an end mill in a drill chuck just isn't that great so unless you are just trying to hog out a slot or something your part isn't likely to be very precise. End mill holders and collets can hold an endmil and take the side load. Drill chucks are usually just pressed on a taper adapter (like a JT33 to a MT2). It doesn't take much side load on a drill chuck before it will let go from the taper adapter and go flying away.

Re: $1500.00 Machine shop
 

Gotcha. Thanks a lot for explaining that!

Re: $1500.00 Machine shop
 

Does Harbor Freight carry any decent (adequate) tools similar to the list you have from CDCO and Enco? Reason I'm asking is, out team now has a permanent space to call home where we could set up a shop. I'm considering as a fundraiser next year bringing the robot to the local Harbor Freight store and setting up some "wishlist" cards so people could purchase or contribute towards specific items we need. If I could put together the entire list from Harbor Freight and not just the big stuff we might get better response.

Re: $1500.00 Machine shop
 

They are also known as height gages, see the digital version here:
http://brownandsharpe.com/precision-...s/height-gages
I don't know where the name cadillac gage comes from but it's what all the machinists I've ever worked with have called it so I picked it up from them. (Most of these machinest went through Pratt & Whitney's tool & die apprentice program so it probably comes from there.)


We have the old pre-dial indicator versions in our shop, it reads like a pre-dial vernier. As with most of our tools and tooling we got our equipment from either our primary sponsor upgrading or one of the other local UTC divisions upgrading their equipment. They used to essentially sell tooling by the pound or give it away. This leads to use having some really unique form tools for the mill, as well as stuff that we have no reason to keep other than its really cool like spline broach for a propeller.

Re: $1500.00 Machine shop
 

As already stated, a drill press doesn't have spindle bearings designed for side loads, thus my comment about light cuts. A serious drill press (we have an old continuously-variable multi-speed Delta) is better than, say, a shop fox or craftsman, but even then... Also, no matter how tight you make the table, it will move under side load, spoiling the work. So, for light cuts in aluminum, on an emergency or very occasional basis, OK, but as a mill, you'll eventually damage things.
Some may share my opinion that Harbor Freight does not make ANY decent tools. That doesn't mean I don't have any of their tools, but I understand the significant compromises they make in design and construction.

That being said, HF offers almost all of those items, albeit at different quality levels.

Re: $1500.00 Machine shop
 

There's a reason a vertical mill weights a lot more than a drill press :)

Re: $1500.00 Machine shop
 

Noted and understood; I finally broke down and spent the money to buy a decent cordless drill after going through 2 cheap ones from HF which were next to worthless.

I have my share of cheap tools and they serve their purpose, but my wrenches and sockets and power tools are all Craftsman. My screwdrivers are all Craftsman as well, but I'm considering switching to Harbor Freight because I seem to lose them faster than I wear them out.

As far as the $1500 machine shop goes, that seems like a reasonable budget for a team without deep pockets to shoot for versus having nothing or spending it all on one piece of equipment. You could debate whether a bad lathe is better than no lathe, but for most stuff we're doing it is more than adequate.

Re: $1500.00 Machine shop
 

[ Indeed they do; does anyone know how to un-skip one? We have a nice Starrett that someone made skip, and it just bugs me that ")" is not anywhere near vertical.

To “unskip” dial calipers you use a narrow piece of shim stock or feeler gage .0015 to .002 and insert it between the pinion and the rack, then you can reset the pointer on the dial to where you want it. or, as the old timers do just reset the dial.
As long as the caliper does not skip when you open it up everything should be good
If it does check the rack for chips & dirt
eo

10K Machine Shop
 

Hi All,
For those with bigger dreams, a bigger budget or just more space:

Harbor Freight (http://www.harborfreight.com)
1pc Knee Mill (R8) #40393-1VGA $1899.99
1pc Drill Press ½” #44505-0VGA $ 459.99
1pc Band Saw #93762-1VGA $ 199.99
1pc Grinder 8” #90022-0VGA $ 54.99
2pc 1” Indicator #623-0VAG $ 11.99
1pc Compressor #93271-0VGA $ 169.87
ST $2796.82
American Machine Tool (http://www.americanmachinetools.com)
1pc Lathe 13x40” #YCL-1340 $2395.00
ST $2395.00
CDCO (http://www.cdcotools.com)
1pc Mill Vise 4” #21003 $ 95.00
1pc Mill X feed motor #22301 $ 259.00
1pc Clamp Kit #24802 $ 38.00
1set Parallels #37201 $ 27.00
1pc Drill Chuck #25003 $ 10.00
1pc Arbor (5/8) #21303 $ 4.00
1pc Edge finder #60601 $ 5.00
1pc Wiggler #60603 $ 6.00
1set 0-6 Micrometers #32653 $ 69.00
1set Telescope gages #34101 $ 12.00
1set End Mills #45901 $ 48.00
ST $ 654.00
Enco (http://www.use-enco.com)
1set Lathe tools #383-4300 $ 37.95
1set R8 Collets #231-4611 $ 37.95
1set QT tool post #TC505-2253 $ 145.95
1set Rotary Table #TC200-1144 $ 395.95
1pc Arbor Press 3Ton #805-1045 $ 179.98
1set Broaches “A” #307-2793 $ 78.99
ST $ 876.77
Shooting Star (http://www.star-techno.com)
1pc 2 Axis DRO #BT-2 $ 599.00
1pc 3Axis DRO #BT-3 $ 749.00
ST $ 1348.00

TOTAL $8069.59

I have left out most of the hand tools Ya gotta stop somewhere!
You can fill in the blanks with the remaining $$$
And Yes I would add a sander (HP 12" disk is a good one)
Taxes and Shipping is still not include

The lathe is the best deal out there and comes with a one year “no questions ask” warranty with very prompt service and shipping
(They also have a “how to operate a Lathe” and “how to operate a Mill” on their site)
This is much better the Harbor Freight lathe of the same size
And Shooting star has a 5 year warranty, a very good unit for the price
Again I have hands on experience with all this equipment

The Mill can be modified in many ways with the power feed as the start
And you can add a column spacer for more height, with the DRO it’s a very good and friendly machine

Harbor Freight has the best deal on Roll-a-way Tool boxes (90320-9VGA)
At $399.00 there is no beating it
Having toys with no toy box to keep them in is a sad thing



Geo.

Re: 10K Machine Shop
 

Great List!

Approximately how much space do you think this would all take up?

Re: 10K Machine Shop
 

Properly set up for use on a multi-person shop, I'd want no smaller than 15 x 25 feet or so, but this can be a little smaller or a lot larger.

In addition to the belt/disk sander combo (I like the 9"/6x48" Harbor Freight unit) I would include a basic 8" table saw; great for cutting sheet goods. This machine needs a lot of free space around it, so get one with wheels and store it in a corner, pulling it out as necessary. A 10" saw can cut thicker material. No need for a $1000 machine, a 'portable contractor's saw" for half that will be more than adequate.

George: Again, thank you for the effort, I am sure that several teams will benefit.

Edit: The NASA machine shops use 8' x 25' or so, but that's not what I'd call a "proper" set up, particularly for HS kids just learning the machines. For a one-man shop, it can be a LOT smaller though.

Re: $1500.00 Machine shop
 

A drill chuck isn't designed to handle side-loads, especially those involved with milling. All sorts of bad things will happen. Not to mention that the bearings and quill are much smaller in a drill press compared to a mill. You'll probably damage the bearings and the quill won't be stiff enough so you'll likely get a ton of tool chatter.

Re: 10K Machine Shop
 

“Approximately how much space do you think this would all take up?”

8’x 10’ would work, maybe a little less
Jan Cory in AZ mounted about the same equipment on 4’x10’ and it works great, very compact with power panel built in it makes for EZ-setup (240 V 1PH)
A single car garage would be a perfect 1-2 man shop
A two car garage and you have enough room for a team to build
It’s the old story more the more room the better!
Something I forgot to mention before is that the bigger machines are 240V 1PH the same as most household stoves or dryers
The amps are low enough that a 50 amp circuit will work.
Don’t forget the First Aid kit.
Geo.

Re: $1500.00 Machine shop
 

Hi All
Something I forgot to mention before is that all these machines are 120V 1PH and so will run about anywhere, a couple 20amp outlets would be fine
Don’t forget the First Aid kit.
Geo.

Re: $1500.00 Machine shop
 

I'm just wondering if someone could give me a list of some of the things they do with their lathes and mills for FRC. I would love to get some for my team, but I'm going to need a good justification of what we'll do with them. I used a lathe a lot my first year to make wheel spacers, but that's all I can remember specifically.

Re: 10K Machine Shop
 

I have a 7' x 12' "one man shop" at home, and here's what I have in it:

8x14 lathe
CNCed Benchtop Mill (5"x11" XY travel)
Small Floor Standing Knee Mill (about 4.5"x14" XY travel, about 800lbs)
10" drill press
14" band saw
4HP 29 gallon compressor
40" tool box
Two upright floor standing cabinets
8 foot by 20" deep workbench, with vice, and two 2-foot wide under bench cabinets/drawers

Tucked away in another area, I have a 12" sliding miter saw. Still need a good sander.

It's pretty tight, but I do quite well in there.

Re: $1500.00 Machine shop
 

We have our lathe going almost continually during the season.

We make all our shafts from rod or hex depending on what they're used for. In a typical 6 wheel drive train that is about 12 true shafts and 4 tensioning shafts. Add in any other custom transmissions and that number grows quickly.

Spacer. We make so many delrin spacers for gearboxes and all sorts of things that we almost always tack a 6 foot delrin rod onto the end of any McMaster order just to make sure we have it.

Drilling and tapping concentric holes in a shaft is easiest on the lathe.

Making adapter pieces to go from square to round tubing (loving called squovals by the students) this requires a 4-jaw chuck.

Knurling rollers.

Boring out gears and sprockets.

Making bearing pockets.

Turning threads off bolts to make axels, see our 2009 robot with about 30 of these...

Making new AndyMark output shafts. This is part of how we make our drive pods.

Those are just reasons I can think of off the top of my head. I think the lathe is the one indispensible machine tool in any shop.

Edit: Also make sure to get hex collets when you buy your lathe tool set. With all the Hex broached gears AndyMark sell this makes custom transmissions much easier.

Re: $1500.00 Machine shop
 

What he said....and outside of FRC, a lathe sure comes in handy when building an underwater robot



We didn't use the mill at all the past two years for building the FRC robot. Having access to a Rotex punch might have something to do with that?

Re: $1500.00 Machine shop
 

“I'm just wondering if someone could give me a list of some of the things they do with their lathes and mills for FRC. I would love to get some for my team, but I'm going to need a good justification of what we'll do with them. I used a lathe a lot my first year to make wheel spacers, but that's all I can remember specifically.”

Let’s see, axels, shafts, wheel hubs, wheels, pulleys, gears, sprocket mounts, bolt patterns, gear boxes, motor mounts, knobs, handles, angle brackets, slots, bearing bores, bushings, transmissions, frames, arms, chain adjusters, claws, pivot points, bolts, brackets, joints, steam engines,
And approximately 28 robots so far. (plus Parts)
You are only limited by your imagination
It’s not just the parts you can make but the quality that makes everything go faster
(Planning and good Prints help)
Have Fun!
Geo.

Re: 10K Machine Shop
 

Here's a thread on another forum I frequent, regarding smaller shops:

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/s...ad.php?t=63118

In the first post is a beautiful sub 100 sq-ft shop that I would consider just about ideal for a team with limited space, who is just getting into machining and such.

Re: $1500.00 Machine shop
 

This is a nice little inexpensive sander for a small/budget shop. I wish I had space for it at home. http://www.harborfreight.com/4-inch-...der-93981.html

Re: 10K Machine Shop
 

Anyone one wanting a fairly decent big lathe ought to check this out:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=200469502003

The seller is the proprietor at www.practicalmachinist.com.

Here's the scoop:

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb...ore-fs-203825/

Re: 10K Machine Shop
 

Off topic, but it's ironic how he deletes anything discussing Chinese machinery, but is in fact selling a Chinese machine.

Re: 10K Machine Shop
 

Yes, "Milacron" is definitely down on the "hobby" grade Chinese equipment. I'd love to have this Jet lathe as it weighs more than twice what some others weigh and has a huge spindle hole. This is probably one of the Taiwanese vintage lathes.

Re: $1500.00 Machine shop
 

Hi George - Several of us took an interest in this thread last year and am revisiting it since we're considering adding some machining capability to our build area. Unfortunately the prices at Harbor Freight on the big ticket items have gone up substantially since last year - I'll have to keep an eye on my mailers for sales and coupons. I'm hoping to do a fundraiser / demo at the local Harbor Freight this year to see if we can get people to donate specific items on the list or contribute towards one of the bigger items.

Re: $1500.00 Machine shop
 

Looks like I wasn't the only one who notices. Their prices really have gone up! The 8x12 lathe I bought in 2006 has doubled in price since then. Glad I got it when I did.

Recommended Tools and Machinery for Your Team's Machine Shop
 

Hello all.

I wanted to make a quick thread to ask about what kind of tools you have, what tools you think are essential for all teams, which are rarely used, and which are non-essential but make a lot of things easier & quicker..

Our team only has a Miter Saw, Drill Press, and Bench Grinder as far as big tools, and the standard assorted hand tools.

We've never really had a need for anything else, but this may be because we don't know what other tools offer, so we'd like to be enlightened.

Things we were considering but questioning the additional benefit of included a lathe, bandsaw, and scroll saw

Re: Tools to have?
 

Do you have the space to store anything you might purchase, or is storage at a premium?

Lathe: Not having access to a lathe generally means you are using more off the shelf solutions instead of fabricating your own. We just purchased one this off season so we can have in house access but I don't have any expectations of how much use it will see.

Bandsaws: We currently have both a vertical and a horizontal bandsaw. Our horizontal one needs some repair as its an old school division machine but once it is up and running I suspect it will replace our vertical bandsaw as the workhorse.

Scroll saw: The team doesn't currently own one but students use a drill and jigsaw quite a bit so I don't expect the team will purchase a scroll saw any time soon.

Re: Tools to have?
 

Thanks for the input!

We have MORE than enough space for any tools. We have too much space and are actually looking to get a bunch of tools to utilize it.

Lathe: Do you think its worth the investment? What kind? I've seen mini-lathe's for $400 or so, and bigger ones for considerably more.

Bandsaw: Has the bandsaw been very useful for you?

Re: Tools to have?
 

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=108842

Some great info in this thread about various types of shop tools/machines.

Re: Tools to have?
 

Also, are cut-off saws specifically used for metal cutting? We've been using a miter saw to cut our aluminum.

What's the benefit of purchasing a cut-off saw?

Re: Tools to have?
 

I believe the lathe we purchased was this one.

The bandsaw gets a lot of use, especially as we fabricate more and more pieces from stock. Having a horizontal bandsaw over a vertical one means you aren't limited by the length of stock that will fit between the throat and the blade.

A table saw is handy for ripping bumper plywood, prototyping, and constructing low cost field elements but isn't necessary as a circular saw can accomplish the tasks. We have both, but our table saw is a Dewalt "worksite" one that can be stored out of the way when not needed.

The only other hand held power tool that comes to mind is a right angle drill, especially if you use rivets and have to drill out one that is in a inconvenient space.

Re: Tools to have?
 

For any decision on tooling purchases we start with two questions:
1. Does this potential purchase increase our in house manufacturing ability or does it simply replace or supplement existing equipment?

2. Does one of our sponsors grant us access to machine time on this already?

Re: Tools to have?
 

Thanks this is very helpful!

& So, in regard to a cut-off saw.. Do you have one?

Re: Tools to have?
 

We have two miter or "chop" saws in our shop. One has an aluminum cutting blade in it and is used constantly, the other is our older saw that now sports a ferrous cutting disk to handle any steel we might use. The second saw is not used very much now that we have transitioned to using 7075 aluminum rod instead of the hardened steel rod we used in the past.

Re: Tools to have?
 

I'd recommend a saw such as the Rage Evolution over a horizontal bandsaw. A vertical bandsaw is nice to have though.

Do you have sufficient computers for programming and CAD? Cords and outlet strips?

Do you have a good solid workbench and vise?

Do you have storage? Shelving, container bins, and parts organizers?

Keyway and hex broaches are nice to have, as well as an arbor press.

A 7/8 and a 1 1/8 TCT hole cutter might be good, depending on what bearings you use, and what material you put them in.

I see a lathe as one of the first major investments to make.

Re: Tools to have?
 

For our team the most used tools we actually have in our shop are our vertical bandsaw and drill presses. Next for us is having access to a good quality mill and lathe which is essential when you get into fabricating drive trains and mechanisms. Our team has been lucky and been able to utilize sponsors equipment so we didn't need to buy our own. Other tools we have and often use are our arbor press, belt/disk sander, heat gun (for bending pvc and plastic), and chop saw.

In the category of tools that we have and don't use is a large harbor freight combination mill/lathe that we rarely use since it is just awkward to work with, instead we end up using our sponsors equipment.

Re: Tools to have?
 

We purchased a mini benchtop lathe this past season. Our shop also has limited resources since it was setup as a woodshop and not necessarily a metal shop like some of our neighbors have. Band saw (horizontal and vertical), miter saw, table saw, drill press (small and large), large lathe (for wood only), and a small CNC that we use for plastics and sometimes metal but it takes time.

Before dishing out a lot of money for tools and fancy machines your team should sit down and ask what type of capabilities would you like to have and would you use them effectively. It would be a shame to invest a ton of money into tools and machines you won't use. Tools also don't make winning robots or better robots. I know of a few teams who have resources in their highschools one can only dream of and yet they haven't made eliminations in several years. The tools you listed are the same I used on my old team and we produced some very good robots with a few parts outsourced to local shops. :cool:

For us the mini lathe was a great investment especially with making roller parts this past season. I'd recommend it but its not a must have.

Good luck!

Re: Tools to have?
 

One of our more recent purchases is heater bar to make cleaner bends with sheet plastics than using a handheld heat gun.

Re: Tools to have?
 

Would you have a vendor/part # available for this heater bar? Thanks!

Re: Tools to have?
 

IMO having a mini lathe/mill [full sized if possible] in the shop as well as a person that can run/teach the tools is amazing.
While we don't have the machine tools in our shop, we have access to them at a sponsor company off site, and using them we were able to expand what we able to do ten fold.

Re: Tools to have?
 

Usually you don't need a heater bar. 1/16" polycarb bends on a brake.

Re: Tools to have?
 

The heater bar is used mostly for thicker thermoplastics that wouldn't bend cleanly in the brake when cold, like 1/8 or 1/4 inch hdpe or nylon.

Re: Tools to have?
 

Personally, I have trouble thinking of what to even do with a lathe..

Could you guys give me some ideas? The only thing that comes to mind are rollers for a conveyor belt.

I'm by far not the best mechanical member of our team, so I may not have the mechanical imagination that some of you do, but I'd like to hear some examples of what a lathe has enabled you to do.

Re: Tools to have?
 

http://www.amazon.com/ft-Strip-Heate...c+sheet+bender

We ordered through amazon instead of the manufacturer.

Common lathe usage is to turn down stock to a smaller diameter or to turn down hex shaft to round stock so that "normal" bearings can be used. You also have the option to turn your own pulleys or wheels especially if you also have access to a press and broach.