3rd Regional Question
 

Hi all,

I'm a little bit curious about why FIRST allows teams to sign up for a third regional. I would assume this is a somewhat localized thing to areas where there are a lot of teams, like my own state, Michigan.

Anyway, why is this allowed? What was the spirit of the creation of this provision?

I ask because my team is going to a week 6 regional (Bedford if you're curious) where 27 or 28 of the teams registered have already had 2 competitions. One look at the teams list would lead someone with knowledge of FiM to see that it will be an AMAZING competition with some very strong competitors. This got me thinking, however, about why third events are allowed and whether situations like this are really the most appropriate thing. Obviously this is something of an extreme case that is highly unlikely, but it is conceivable that the 27/28 teams whose performance at Bedford will not affect their standings in the state could contribute all 24 of the robots in eliminations. That just doesn't sit well with me. It seems to me that in a situation like that, where a significant number of teams competed in eliminations but received no points for it when other teams could have received those points, it's kind of cheating those other teams out of an event...if that makes sense?

I totally understand that there are reasons that so many teams are having their 3rd event at Bedford (the reasons why really aren't very important to me, I'm just using Bedford as an example because that was what sparked my thinking about it) and I want to emphasize that I am really just looking to understand the spirit of the law, so to speak, as it pertains to teams getting a third event.

Thanks in advance, and please don't get all angry or overly argumentative over this...

Re: 3rd Regional Question
 

From the Q&A posted here:

Re: 3rd Regional Question
 

Just so no one gets confused, he means third district event, not regional.

Re: 3rd Regional Question
 

Because they can? If a team wants to maximize the time and effort put into a season why should they be limited to 1 regional/district or 2 regionals/districts? FiM and MAR cant really be used as a way to argue against teams going to more competitions because the price is so much lower to register, travel, house, and the vicinity is close enough to allow teams to more easily attend events. I know you arent arguing against teams being allowed to do this, but this topic has been thoroughly covered before; try searching the forums before posting.

Re: 3rd Regional Question
 

FIRST has always allowed teams to sign up for as many regionals as they want to attend (that number currently being a maximum of 7 due to the impossibility of the same team competing in two events during the same week).

As for the 3rd District event question, Jim Zondag just put up a whitepaper with the answer at http://www.chiefdelphi.com/media/papers/2804. If you haven't read it, you might want to, as this is one of the FAQs for FiM.

Whether or not there should be a limit to the number of events a team can attend other than the calendar limitations, and how a district system allowing more districts than the number counted should deal with a number of teams in eliminations who can't get points (and are presumably blocking out others who need the points to get to State/Region Championships), are currently wide open questions.

Re: 3rd Regional Question
 

How would you feel if you were one of those teams and someone told you that they would rather leave slots empty than let you in because you had already competed twice?

Re: 3rd Regional Question
 

It might be a little depressing to attend a district with only 12 teams competing (I say this as one of the teams attending Bedford as our 2nd district). As previously noted, Jim's whitepaper covers the mathematical reasoning. The 3rd district lottery is the best solution to filling open spaces at districts. I suppose it would be ideal if the 3rd district teams were a bit more spread out between events, however I imagine there isn't much the FiM staff could do about that as the actual number of teams in the state didn't seem to be finalized until well after initial registration, by which time most teams had already been sorted into events and rearranging them to spread out the 3rd event spaces would have been logistically challenging.

Re: 3rd Regional Question
 

Alot of this happened because Bedford was added so late. Also there are teams at Troy and Livonia who are competing at their 3rd district..

Re: 3rd Regional Question
 

In 2011 at the stl regional, there were under 30 teams. It was a very fun regional and everyone got to know each other very well, but there wasnt much diversity. Nearly every team was within a 2 hour radius. Something that is interesting at small regionals is that nearly every team is on an alliance for eliminations. This is good for rookie teams because they get an extra feel for FIRST, but also not the best because there will be a lack of competition.

Just look at the scores:
95-6
112-24
107-55
50-4

but I guess there are a decent amount of examples where an alliance has no competition...case in point: finals of galileo of 2011: 101 - 0.

Re: 3rd Regional Question
 

I want to clarify that fact, since I was playing on the alliance that won that match (Final 1-1). We won the match because of a red card called on team 254 for an incursion into our protected scoring zone (it was a very complicated call though, as the incursion wasn't the sole reason for the card, just the start of the sequence of events that lead to the red card). The original score of the match had the blue alliance of 254-111-973 beating the red alliance 469-610-188 by about 10 points (the score was around 111-101). The blue alliance rallied back to win the next two matches, move on to Einstein, and claim the 2011 title in four very well played and impressive matches.

The vast majority of zero scores in eliminations are the result of a red card and not because of an alliance that can't score.

I apologise for going off topic from the original post, I just wanted to point out that that specific match was very close with two strong alliances, and the only reason we won by such a large margin was because of a disqualification, not because the other alliance was not competitive. The two championship blue banners won by that alliance prove how strong they were. This match was the only loss that this alliance took on their outstanding championship run, and it was not a true loss, rather the result of a red card from an unlucky position that 254 got into. The alliance of 254-111-973 was the closest thing to a perfect 10 match championship elimination win in recent memory, such an exceptional alliance and set of matches.

Re: 3rd Regional Question
 

Sorry for the confusion about districts/regionals. The distinction has never been clear to me.

^This is more my question. I tend to think that if Bedford were my second regional and all or most of the teams competing in eliminations were ineligible for earning the qualifying points from it that I would feel a bit cheated, because aside from the awards (which I would never want to minimize), it would be akin to competing in only one regional.

Is my logic flawed? Am I insane? Should I just shut up and accept it? I am just curious and looking to understand it a little bit better.

Re: 3rd Regional Question
 

You raise good points which my team has only begun discussing. We are in MAR not FiM. When we chose our 3rd District event we were thinking mainly about being able to compete a 3rd time for only an additional $1K. We often have a tight budget and this is quite a bargain for an extra 12 matches.

Unlike your situation I believe we are the only team that is going into its 3rd district (unless others registered after I last looked). The 3rd one we signed up for fell between our other 2, and it still had 9 open spots when we played this past weekend.

Just setting the background, the potential ethical issues remain. We are currently 32nd in MAR and likely to reach the MAR championship, but there are many teams behind us that have played once and are competing with us at the final MAR event next week. It would obviously be to our advantage for the teams behind us to stay behind us; while it is very unlikely that 20 odd teams will gain enough points to pass us I can't say its mathmatically impossible. There may even be times in our 3rd event where losing may be more to our advantage than winning. This situation has cropped up before for some teams at some regionals, and was sometimes a factor in coopertition in previous seasons.

There is only one ethical way to handle things when you are in this position: play as hard as you can to win at all times. This is really the essence of all sport (and life): play hard, fairly, and honestly at all times. Ignoring that karma often comes back to bite those who don't play fairly, personal honor must always be valued above personal gain.

I don't think you are crazy, you have honest concerns. All you can do is go out and do your best, trust others will do the same, and let the chips fall where they may.
From Samurai to Klingons to GP Robotic Teams its a good day to die, as long as you do so with honor.
Sorry, got all geeky there for a minute. :)

Re: 3rd Regional Question
 

You are not the only team going to a third district in MAR, there are three: 303, 1279, 3314.

However this brings up an interesting point; there are only three teams attending a third district in MAR, but over twenty-seven in Michigan. Why? Is it because the third Michigan district is only $500 while it is $1000 in MAR?

Are there usually this many teams signed up for a third Michigan district?

Re: 3rd Regional Question
 

It's a combination of fewer extra event slots in MAR combined with local teams' preference for going to out-of-district regionals that leads to less MAR teams doing local districts. I don't think price is the issue since teams are paying 5 times as much to compete elsewhere.

Re: 3rd Regional Question
 

I believe part of why there are so many teams this year is because there are over 200 teams in Michigan this year, but only just (205 or 206 I think). So if every team gets 2 district events with 40 teams each, that leaves those 5 or 6 teams outside the traditional 10 districts we've had in the past. So Bedford was added relatively last minute to accommodate the teams that needed it, but since there were so few it allowed a lot of space for extra teams to sign up for a third event.

This is much more than usual, in the past there have usually been 10 or less teams that got a third event.

Hopefully that all makes sense and somewhat answers your question.

Re: 3rd Regional Question
 

Not sure if its the extra slots, 9 were open at Lenape (a great event btw). I suspect its mostly playing 'for nothing', you can't qualify for the MAR championships. Teams with more resources may prefer non-MAR regionals We'll do them when we are able, we miss the friends we've made in NY, DC, etc..

But I am very surprised that more teams, especially rookies or newish teams don't take advantge of the extra experience. (and fun, and days out of school :) )

Re: 3rd Regional Question
 

There are also teams that do three regionals. At the Smoky Mountain regional this weekend, there will be two teams attending their third regional. Team 1319, Flash, has also been to Palmetto and Peachtree. Team 3196, SPORK, has also been to Palmetto and North Carolina.

I'm worn out with 2 myself - I 'm looking forward to seeing these teams that are crazy enough to go to 3 regionals!! :)

Re: 3rd Regional Question
 

I think the "days out of school" factor is more likely to keep teams from going to another competition than it is to encourage them to attend. District events do only eat up a Friday, but getting even one more day off work isn't always easy for mentors.

Re: 3rd Regional Question
 

We chose to register for the Bedford District due to our two districts both being in West Michigan and less than an hour away. We wished to have at least one "travel" experience with the team staying overnight at a hotel after a Friday of competition. This is our first time attending three districts since the inception of the district system. We have not accumulated enough points to attend Michigan State Championship so this would be the only overnight event for the team.

Regarding your concern with the points that are stolen it is definitely an issue. There are a lot of good teams going that will probably snatch up a lot of points. However, on the other extreme is a 12 team event. How will FiM ensure these teams gets points fairly because every team is guaranteed to be in the semi-finals which normally gives points. Also, scheduling for qualification matches would be a mess since there needs to be 6 teams in every match. I cannot think of any solution that does not involve teams registering for a 3rd event and playing. Maybe one day they will be a better solution but for now it is the best solution.

Re: 3rd Regional Question
 

I believe his team's concern is that they may on the edge of qualifying for the state tournament. The teams on their 3rd districts may receive points that will take away valuable points from the other teams on their 2nd events trying to qualify. Understandable point on his end.

Re: 3rd Regional Question
 

Under a completely different line of thinking....

We have a huge team - 89 registered online and active and anotehr 20 or so that kind of hang out with us. Of those, we only have 6-10 seniors, so we are anticipating a lot of growth next year. We are discussing the possibility of participating in a third regional event next year (or districts, if go go that route) with the idea that we'd use different students (primarily sophomores and freshmen) as our drive team, pit crew, etc. as a way to get more kids involved. We are not looking at it as a a way to improve our chances at making nationals, but, rather, as a way to encourage more kids to participate.

Re: 3rd Regional Question
 

In MAR you do not receive qualification points for your third district event. Only points gained in your first two events are used to qualify for the MAR championship.

Re: 3rd Regional Question
 

This is true in FiM as well (I thought we stole it from them, but you'd know better than I). I think the point is that if, say, Bedford's winning alliance is all 3rd district teams, those points are effectively "gone". Whereas, if it'd only had 2nd district teams, the points wouldn't be gone, and everyone competing for them would have had the same work time prior. The OP would rather compete against all 2nd district teams, so that the teams the points matter to would have an improved shot at getting them, correct?

Of course, in this case there wasn't much FiM could do. The 2nd-3rd imbalance is so bad because there are so many necessarily open slots, and the event was added so late.

Re: 3rd Regional Question
 

Since the points are "gone", they reduce the total number of points available to qualify for the state championship, and therefore reduce the threshold for qualifying for the state championship, making it easier for everyone to qualify.

Re: 3rd Regional Question
 

Agreed--I think it's by far the best solution, for this reason and others. What I meant is, I think the OP sees playing against a field that is all/majority/more at his level of experience this season is better. It's not so much about the points directly, as that the fact that they would be gone (3rd district teams dominating elims) is "kind of cheating those other teams out of an event".

I can see this perspective--if those 2nd district Bedford teams had gotten into, say, Kettering (no, I know nothing about FiM districts, thanks for asking :o), they might have had a better chance to play Saturday afternoon. At the same time, it's far more equitable this way than running it as just a 2nd district event with ~12 teams, and logistically there wasn't really an option in between.

Re: 3rd Regional Question
 

I realize that this solution is better than the alternative; this isn't strictly true, it makes it easier for everyone else to qualify for state championships (not strictly speaking, I'm sure some of the 2nd event teams will be picked/captains and be successful enough in elims to improve their standings). A team that gets snuffed out due to the high level of competition probably won't get enough points from their second event to qualify, but a similar calibre team on the edge of qualifying won't lose their spot due to the outcome.

It's just the way the cookie crumbles unfortunately. One teams lucky break is another teams downfall.

Re: 3rd Regional Question
 

2612 did something a few years ago that was shocking to most that their third event. They declined to play in eliminations, so that other teams (possible needing the points) would have the chance to gain them.

Re: 3rd Regional Question
 

Yes. We don't really want to hurt other teams' chances of making it to states.

We have already qualified for states actually, this was a concern that I have as a result of someone affiliated with my team mentioning the high number of 3rd event teams.

After speaking with our lead mentor, we are considering (should we make it to eliminations as captains) selecting teams for whom the event counts to help them out.

Re: 3rd Regional Question
 

I share the same concerns as moogboy about teams playing in their third event, particularly the massive number at Bedford. From seeing what happens at these later events in years past, our team didn't even consider going to Troy, Livonia, and especially Bedford. The "home" event that is selected for us has been a later event the last few years, and we don't even consider going to it.

Yes, filling in those empty slots "increase[s] FRC team participation". The problem is that the teams that are going to a third event are typically better than your average Michigan FRC team. They're frequently the more well established teams that also have better than average robots. To back up this point, I looked at the 26 third event teams competing at Bedford. On average, they scored 30 points towards going to MSC at the events that they have already played. Michigan teams earn an average of about 24 points towards MSC at each of their events. Those third event teams are higher caliber teams that now have two events of practice and tweaking their robots under their belts. They're going up against "average" FRC teams with only one event of practice. I'd be curious to see the average number of points that the 14 second event teams get at Bedford. I'd bet that they are going to get much lower than average of 24 points.

I don't really know a good solution to the problem. I understand that having an event with 14 teams isn't acceptable. If there was a better way to distribute the open spots across all the events, that would be optimal (e.g., all events capped at 36 teams). The only problem is that you don't really know exactly how many Michigan teams there will be next year so an exact cap amount isn't known immediately, but a reasonable approximation wouldn't be that hard. It would mean that teams can't go to third events (they can still go out of state), but it would make it more fair for the teams at the later events.

At the very least, teams shouldn't be eligible for awards at their third event. Every award the third event teams win also sucks away points from the second event teams. Judging by the awards that the third event teams have already won at their first two events, it wouldn't surprise me if only a small handful of awards (if any) are won by the second event teams at Bedford.

Re: 3rd Regional Question
 

Congrats on qualifying for state, I guess I should have looked first!!
As mentioned, there may be some teams that are needing qualifying points yet.

Re: 3rd Regional Question
 

Thank you for coming up with that data! I have been meaning to do something similar, just for myself.

Also, I strongly support the no awards for third event teams thing you just mentioned. I'm not sure if that's something that could be requested or what? I know that my team wants to start grooming younger students in the interview process, maybe we could ask to be interviewed but not considered? I'll bring this up to my mentors at the first opportunity.

Re: 3rd Regional Question
 

By my count there are 13 awards in FiM that are worth points (14 in MAR). If only 14 or so teams are eligible for these awards then there is a near 100% chance of earning one. That is ridiculous. The awards would be basically meaningless.

Using that system a team attending Bedford as a second district would have a huge advantage over teams that did not.

Giving away free points is not the answer.

Re: 3rd Regional Question
 

While this is commendable on your part, I don't know if the judges would even allow you to not be considered for awards. But training younger students is definitely a good idea for a third event. We are also going to Bedford as our third district, and I really hope to completely switch around who does what.

One way I'm looking at is that students who did well throughout the season will get "rewarded" at Bedford. For example, I'll be sending a new student down for alliance selections so that they can get the experience, and I'll be picking who that is based on who the best scout throughout the season was. And we might move a student who has worked really hard and dedicated a lot of time to this season into the pit crew.

So while the third district does have its downsides, there are a lot of good ways to use it to better your team.

Re: 3rd Regional Question
 

I would say this:

If any team, for any reason, declines an award or to compete in the eliminations, that is their call. This does include the reason being that the event is their third district event. As long as they choose that as a team, and make it known to the appropriate parties (judges, refs, MC possibly), I don't think anybody would have a problem with that. (And it has happened before. I can think of two separate cases.) The team could even promote another team for the award, if they wanted.

However, I do not think that it should be required for any team to do so, regardless of number of events played. Doing that, as noted, creates a huge issue with points advantages.

Re: 3rd Regional Question
 

Of course, and as a co-president I'm looking to leverage the time in as many ways as possible to benefit the team. Giving younger guys more responsibilities and shifting around some roles to help meet some unfulfilled wishes is definitely part of the plan.

Re: 3rd Regional Question
 

Bedford is a pretty crazy situation with only 14 second event teams competing, so I'll agree with you that this isn't a fantastic recommendation for that event. When you look at a more typical late season event like Livonia and Troy, I still think it would make a good change.

That being said, I have a feeling that even if you gave 2-5 points to all 14 of the second event teams at Bedford, they may may still have a hard time hitting the 24 point average.

EDIT: Just to be clear, I'm not advocating that any third event teams this year purposely ask judges to not to give them awards or decline alliance selections or anything of that sort. I personally think that the FiM rules for next year should be changed to eliminate third events, and if that's not possible, changed to not allow third event teams to get awards.