Re: Petition to end the shouting of ROBOT
 

Or teams who expand their pits and occupy nearly the entire aisle...

As far as I'm concerned, 'green shirts' at events should feel free to be as aggressive and proactive as possible to eliminate pit crowding. I really respect teams that do it right.

Re: Petition to end the shouting of ROBOT
 

BEST robotics does this at their events. They assign 5 pit passes, 4 student and 1 adult pit pass. I'd rather not see FIRST do a system like that, since media often walks through the pits, but I'd like it if teams emphasized that the pits are not where socialization happens, and neither should students who don't know much about the robot come in groups to the team pit and start harrasing them, asking them what is wrong. Our team has every student that isn't pit crew stay in the stands scouting matches or doing pit scouting in groups of 2-3. Our pit is rarely crowded, if ever, since everyone has a job to do.

Re: Petition to end the shouting of ROBOT
 

Our team has been talking about implementing a similar system just for our own pit. Besides the drive team, and one supervising mentor, there would be a limit of one or two students/mentors in the pit area.

Re: Petition to end the shouting of ROBOT
 

We issue the nice metal-style nametags for our pit crew/mentors, both to allow judges and other teams to know who they are talking to, and to make it clear who is allowed to be in the pit.

Re: Petition to end the shouting of ROBOT
 

To be fair it's often parents who want to come down too the pits as well. I remember at GTR West one year I saw a team of 30 just covering the pit aisle with 30 people including a baby in a carriage.It's as if they had no concept there were other teams in the pits with them.

Re: Petition to end the shouting of ROBOT
 

It's always awkward asking parents to leave the area when they just want to see what their son or daughter has been working on for the past 6-8 weeks...but it's also really necessary. "Pit browsing" should be encouraged for all visitors but not clogging up one area.

Re: Petition to end the shouting of ROBOT
 

Here in lies the problem I feel. My team wouldn't have to yell robot (or say "excuse me" if that's what you really prefer) if their team wasn't standing where it shouldn't be, in the pit road.
Honestly I see no difference between "Robot" and "Excuse me my robot is coming through" except for the unnecessary length of the second one. "Robot" is crisp, concise, and gets your point across quickly that there is a potentially dangerous and heavy mobile object moving in your direction and to be alert (the world needs more lerts).

As to the practice of announcing you robot in less filled areas: there are a number of teams in my area that are in the practice of walling off their pit (with shelves or totes or use a tent), so that unless you are directly in front, you can't see in or out of it. There's no telling is someone is going to come barreling out at any moment into your robot transit team (which I HAVE seen on occasion when "robot" was not announced). Same goes for adjacent hallways and rooms. Preemptive announcement is much better and safer than running the risk of collision. I have no control over what other team's members do, but I do control what my team does. If you find it annoying that I let you know every time when my robot is passing your pit, you'll just have to take one for the team, so to say.

As to the use of robot declaration, it should ALWAYS be the person leading the robot train (who is at LEAST a handful of feet in front of the robot cart) and NEVER the person pushing the robot cart. That gives people more time to react.

I find it actually kind of funny the disparity I see in the pits; of the 4 competitions I've been to the past 2 years, the overwhelming majority of pits (75%+) have either more people in them than they should, or the pit is completely empty (everyone is at/to/from the field). Not sure which one is worse.

Re: Petition to end the shouting of ROBOT
 

Re: Petition to end the shouting of ROBOT
 

I see what you're trying to get at with the "yelling" text Alexa, but it's a bit of a different situation when you're in a loud, crowded pit area.

I get the feeling that the different ideas about whether it's "rude" or not just have to do with the local cultures that attend those regionals.

In WI, I've never heard anyone talk about calling "Robot" as "rude" (Can't say I've taken a survey or anything though)

Then again, in the midwest, we sometimes say "yeah" in place of "you're welcome", and from what I've heard, that's considered offensive and rude in other parts of the country.

I don't think this is something that should be decided on a whole-organization level. Maybe each regional can decide for itself?

In any case, we're no strangers to FIRST culture, we know that the person yelling "ROBOT!" is not trying to be rude, or offensive, or obnoxious, they're probably just trying to be safe.

Re: Petition to end the shouting of ROBOT
 

Wisconsin Regional Safety Officials were requiring teams to do this, and it was very obnoxious.

Incident with our team, one of the drivers was politely saying, "Excuse us, we need to get through" while pushing the robot. One of the safety officials was in the way and said, "I am not moving until you loudly shout 'Robot!'". This is clearly unnecessary and is forcing/encouraging students to be obnoxious. It also makes the pit a tense and more stressful place than it already is.

Re: Petition to end the shouting of ROBOT
 

This doesn't answer my question. Of the people who hear you yell "excuse me, robot coming through", how many of them are actually in a position that impedes your travel or risks their safety? Unless your definition of yelling is very different from the dB standard, if this is greater than say 10%, the pits are way, way, way too crowded. This causes numerous other safety issues which are not addressed--and are in fact compounded--by the yelling to which you refer.

The aisles don't need to be empty for polite, inside voice, requests to work. Anything but. In fact, they can be quite crowded. I probably ask 20 people to move every time we queue, and it still goes faster than yelling robot to 10x more people than actually need to move--the latter is desensitizing, so people who are actually in the way react more slowly and must maneuver in a now more entropic situation. Now, overcrowdedness poses numerous problems, but yelling is more an attempt to mask the symptoms than address the cause.


:o I'm trying to imagine how this is possible. Does your robot overhang your cart or have an abnormal shape, etc? How can someone think their out of the way while being inside the frame perimeter?

Re: Petition to end the shouting of ROBOT
 

I completely agree.

I pasted this link into the Week 5 event survey. Somebody should send this thread to Underwriter's Laboratory and FIRST brass. Anybody got connections? If they got on board, they could simply tell all of the event organizers to push this concept in the future.

Re: Petition to end the shouting of ROBOT
 

Having "ROBOT" screamed at me makes me want to stand my ground rather than move. Just like when someone behind me at a traffic light lays on there horn, it makes me want to turn on my hazard lights, pop the hood, get out of the car and start fiddling around with the engine.

It is irritating, unnecessary and a point of contention every year. I had someone deliberately walk in front of our robot yesterday, while looking right at us. When I said excuse me the response was, "You are supposed to yell robot".

Wow. Some people just do not have common sense.

Tell me where to sign.

Re: Petition to end the shouting of ROBOT
 

and so how does robot work any better? Tapping on the shoulder at least makes sense if the person was facing away and doesn't see the robot coming. And how does yelling help a deaf person at all?

Personally, I have always found it irritating/ironic/amusing that it would be deemed necessary to warn me that there were robots when robots were specifically the reason for the event. As if I didn't expect them!

It's one thing to use a warning when the situation calls for it, but so much of this we see at regionals - the florescent vests, the flashing lights, the batons and wand flashlights - is all show intended to win an award. Carrying it to the extreme that we now see has the opposite effect and dilutes the message by numbing us to the actual safety practice.

Re: Petition to end the shouting of ROBOT
 

I was surprised to hear that from the safety folks as well. I thought we had been through this a few years ago (maybe it was just on CD?) and the consensus was the smart thing to do was just be polite and ask people to move. Of course, people would still yell "ROBOT!" just like they say "Graciously Accept" when that could be interpreted to be a backhanded insult. (Props to the one team at Seattle that said "Gratefully")

Re: Petition to end the shouting of ROBOT
 

I have more than once raised an eyebrow to things said by some of the Safety Advisors. The ones who are actually from UL are usually pretty good, but I wonder about the qualifications of some of the others.

I worked in industry where I received extensive safety training in things like lockout/tag out, fall protection, rigging safety, confined space entry and rescue, MSDS, and manlift
operation, so I may know a thing or two from the real world about this.

One thing I have learned to appreciate is to never underestimate the ability of bureaucrats to create rules that seem to make sense on paper, but fail miserably out in the real world where we have to live with them.

This falls into that category.

Re: Petition to end the shouting of ROBOT
 

We unashamedly yelled robot, but we did have a vanguard for some matches. The vanguard worked much better, but some people in the pits didn't move unless we yelled ROBOT. That said, it should not be required to say ROBOT if a vanguard is also present. No safety officials or others mandated yelling ROBOT (I was not present at the safety meeting, but I didn't hear if they mandated it there).

Re: Petition to end the shouting of ROBOT
 

Where do I sign up ?

When someone yells 'ROBOT'

I want to say "oh look, a robot ! bless your heart"

Re: Petition to end the shouting of ROBOT
 

One last comment from me then I'll shut up.

From my experience, the advance person, or vanguard, is probably the most effective way and is important for getting a robot safely through the crowded aisles.

Whether they yell "robot" or something else, the important thing is that they communicate with the people in the area, including their people guiding their cart. If saying something like "excuse me" or "coming through" or "could you please move a bit" works better because you are communicating your intent, than yelling "robot" because someone says you should, then that's what should be done.

The person should also tell their cart drivers to stop if necessary and help them find a clear path.

Often a lot of the congestion is general public who may need a little more time to integrate what is going on around them and react. A little verbal guidance, more than just yelling "robot" may be necessary.

Other times, the people in front of you may be fully aware of your cart coming, but simply have no safe place to go immediately to get out of the way. You'll just have to be patient and realize that your team is not the only one there with places to go...

I think we all just need to apply some Gracious Professionalism to this issue.

Re: Petition to end the shouting of ROBOT
 

nice! Now we need to get the word out!

I recommend that all in favor of the petition, and the use of a vanguard should start actively spreading the word to safety people and other teams. Those that think it is a good idea will follow suit, and those that claim it can't be done won't. My hypothesis is that eventually the loud yelling of robot will just disappear.

the permutations of possible things to say, and the debate of whether or not yelling robot is rude is :deadhorse:

Re: Petition to end the shouting of ROBOT
 

I personally do not like the shouting of robot, and find a safety official doing that just weird.

Re: Petition to end the shouting of ROBOT
 

The very next time a safety official does that, I suggest that as many team members as possible get around him and count three, then ROAR "Robot" at him at the top of their lungs. Then, after the match, figure out who to send a complaint letter to about a safety inspector requiring an unsafe practice and furthermore interfering with a team's safe operation to do it.

Re: Petition to end the shouting of ROBOT
 

At BAE, our students were told by safety judges that we MUST yell "ROBOT!!!" in the pits while walking. On our team we follow the lead of many teams whom have posted in this thread - one member of our drive team walks ahead of the robot cart and politely asks people to move to the side so our robot can get through. When this explanation wouldn't satisfy the safety judges, two mentors from our team had to step in and explain that shouting "ROBOT!!!" was against our team's code of conduct and that we would not be shouting it during the competition. They were still adamant about it, but we kept doing it our way regardless. Probably didn't help our Safety Award chances one bit, but we would rather be professionals. At least they didn't physically blockade the robot like at some other regionals.

The practice certainly shouldn't be mandatory. Not sure if it should be outright banned (maybe occasionally shouting IS the only way to get through a particularly tricky situation quickly, I don't know), but it's a stupid idea to enforce its practice and the more you hear "robot" at competition, the more you tune it out.

Also, the idea that the Bill of Rights prevents a private organization from asking someone attending their controlled event not to shout a word? That is just stupid. The Bill of Rights / First Amendment prevents the government from restricting free expression - it does not mean no one can ever ask you to not say anything in any public or private venue. It certainly doesn't protect speech from being frowned upon either.

Re: Petition to end the shouting of ROBOT
 

One other issue with yelling "ROBOT!" is that it's often difficult to tell if it's directed at you. When people keep shouting it, you look around and you don't see any robots coming your way most of the time. So eventually you start to ignore it. This completely defeats the purpose of alerting people around you, similar to crying "wolf" over and over again.

I still have yet to see anybody prove why saying "Excuse us" is any less effective than shouting "Robot!" Until someone can argue this, I think most of us here firmly stand where we are.

Re: Petition to end the shouting of ROBOT
 

I too am very against the yelling of the term, "robot". This practice of yelling in the pits is not only obnoxious but it is completely unprofessional especially when VIPs, sponsors, and the public are walking around. A quieter pit is area is great for the public and it is great for teams. I know my stress level goes down when the pits are quiet.

For the past three years on 3467 we use the same system many teams use: one person in front politely and quietly asking bystanders to move. Even in the most crowded events such as GSR it works amazing, never had a problem.

FIRST, please change this!

Re: Petition to end the shouting of ROBOT
 

While serving as an ambassador this weekend at CTR, I was giving a tour and teams were yelling Robot, and kept yelling it louder and louder while I attempted to move the group of guests I was taking on a tour over. Needless to guests had commented to me they were not happy.

I've always been against yelling ROBOT, but after this weekend, I strongly feel this needs to stop, now, period.

Re: Petition to end the shouting of ROBOT
 

Lets stick it in the rule book, next to the part where you can't save seats at the venues. I'm sure everyone will follow the rule then.

I really think that a Limit for the number of students from a team is needed for the pits, but enforcing it would be a nightmare. You need to allow for students to wander the pits and see all of the teams, as well as for parents of students. I just don't know how to go about it - and most likely neither does FIRST, which is why you don't see a limit or any kind of answer to this problem.

And I ask again, where is the letter to FIRST that we are signing?

Re: Petition to end the shouting of ROBOT
 

I'd argue a good first step would be to stop having the Green Shirts waste their time forcing safe and professional teams to yell "ROBOT!" and start using it to enforce everyone de-crowding and staying in their pit area. I'm willing to bet crowdedness will do go a lot if the safety guys really made it their priority and put it visibly as one of the top safety award considerations (as well it should be).

I think it's the Change petition? Does that work? Doesn't seem to have as many signers as the thread, though.

Re: Petition to end the shouting of ROBOT
 

I haven't heard it nearly as much as I used to. In 2011 Championship, there were of course robots EVERYWHERE. So every other person was screaming "ROBOT!!!!". Yeah, ok.... *raising hand*

Re: Petition to end the shouting of ROBOT
 

Yep, I talked with sanddrag before creating this as to not hijack his thread. Things tend to be overlooked when people don't read the entire thread:

Petition to FIRST to stop encouraging teams to shout "Robot!"

Re: Petition to end the shouting of ROBOT
 

I'd rather sign a letter being sent to FIRST Headquarters, rather than an internet petition. I feel that FIRST may not even be aware of the issue, and sending a letter addressing the concerns and asking for action is a lot more convincing.

Or maybe even ask Frank to read up on this thread would be just as good since we have all "signed" our support already.

Re: Petition to end the shouting of ROBOT
 

I directly confronted a safety advisor who ordered my student to wear gloves while operating a drill press. I told my student to stop work, but not put gloves on. Then asked the safety advisor to send the lead safety advisor to our pit to explain how wearing gloves was in any way safe around a drill press. The original safety advisor returned a few minutes later and apologized. I wouldn't want a student to lose a hand by having the glove get wrapped into the drill. I would hope safety advisors are correctly briefed on important issues and not on how to create more chaos in the pits.

Something has to be done to reduce the number of "lookie-loos" in the pits, particularly on Sat morning. Teams are already stressed with their final qual matches, alliance selection negotiations, final inspections, watching the team standings displays, etc. Safety should be clearing access in the pit rows by limiting numbers of visitors and dispersing crowds between queuing, inspection and the pits. In Inland Empire, the primary access aisle had to accommodate 44 of the 49 teams. The aisle to queuing ran past pit admin, spare parts, and a couple of monitors showing matches and standings. It was a traffic nightmare. Safety's focus should have been to keep aisles as clear as possible without a chorus of "ROBOT!" "ROBOT!" "ROBOT!" to add to the din.

I voted on the change.org site and am fully supportive of sanddrag's stance.

Re: Petition to end the shouting of ROBOT
 

I don't want to get in any heated debates or anything, I'm just respectfully giving my opinion. Is yelling robot really this big of an issue? If you find the need to yell it, go ahead, if not that's fine too. Obviously be polite, i.e. don't yell every two seconds and if some don't here you politely say excuse me or whatever. But in general yelling robot is an effective system. Often teams need to get too and from matches fast so they can make schedule, fix problems, and perform necessary operations. I don't see this as a large issue.

Re: Petition to end the shouting of ROBOT
 

How would you suggest we gather everyone together to sign a physical letter, supposing that we want to get this to FIRST before the Championship?

Re: Petition to end the shouting of ROBOT
 

I do not believe that the primary issue is "to yell or not to yell." Rather, it is an issue of space.

Really, the pit area should be large enough to allow for a robots-only lane. In Seattle this weekend, there were times when walking through the pits (withour without a robot in tow!) was difficult. At times, we were working to support a rookie team half-way across the pit area from us and needed to transport drills, hacksaws and long pieces of L-Channel. It really was not safe to do so through that mob.

One of the main goals of FIRST is to promote technology and we like to do so by inviting the public. In doing so, we should have the space to accommodate the guests - without running them over with robots in a rush to get into queue.

Re: Petition to end the shouting of ROBOT
 

I really dislike it when others feel the need to shout robot for you as you walk through the pits. Thanks for trying and all, but I can say excuse me myself just fine.

Re: Petition to end the shouting of ROBOT
 

2008 is when I remember being "escorted" in Atlanta; I don't remember the practice in 2006.

I can attest to the loudness of Boilermaker Regional. To give you some perspective, the regional takes place inside the Armory; you can hear the cheering within (during eliminations) from two blocks away, while you can hear gunfire within from about a block away (yes, it is a shooting range.)


I think a bigger issue than shouting ROBOT is the sheer number of people inside the pits. I think FIRST would do well to have signs posted "NO LOITERING IN THE PITS" next to the signs requiring safety glasses. Until that happens, ALL teams would do well to explain to their members and visitors that the pits are dangerous, crowded, and not a good place to be if you don't have a specific reason to be there.

Re: Petition to end the shouting of ROBOT
 

I very much disagree with the idea of limitting pit access. The pits are the best place to come and interact with students, see the robots up close and really learning what goes into them. As I lead a field trip of fourth graders around, I noticed their fascination with their close-up view of robots and they loved watching HS kids making repairs. They REALLY loved collecting buttons, etc. For them, it was their coolest field trip ever - something they will never forget - talking about inspiring another generation of engineers! Instead, we need to focus on doing whatever needs to be done in order to keep them safe from teh masses we invite to the competitions.

Re: Petition to end the shouting of ROBOT
 

I agree that primary access limitations should come out of the teams' allocations rather than visitors. Or rather, the teams' pits themselves. I'd be willing to get that if we enforced having whoever was in a specific pit actually in that pit--with any volume reductions intended to come out of that teams' members or setup--a lot of this issue would go away. Instead, 'safety' seems to have degenerated into spectacle. (That doesn't downplay the need for coordinating traffic flow and maybe some larger tour groups, but hopefully not to the point of damaging FIRST's mission or image.)

I should have done this. We once had one harass us so much about this that we didn't get a chance to finish before our next match (we only had a few minutes as it was). It's sad when such an important and generally professional and helpful volunteer cohort gets such a bad rap due to poor training.

Re: Petition to end the shouting of ROBOT
 

The culprits who cause crwoded pits aren't normally spectators or media or local groups coming to see what's going on. It's normally students from the same team using the pit as a social haven. I'm fine with people who don't normally see what goes on behind the bumpers looking in the pits for a few minutes and asking questions, because they are genuinely curious, and usually are polite enough to make room for other robots. It's when there are multitudes of other team members who choose to swarm the pit of their team and also take up all of the aisle that it's an issue.

Re: Petition to end the shouting of ROBOT
 

Limiting pit access is not the answer. Something to consider is that every event is different. I've been to competitions where pits are smaller and more cramped to others with very spacious aisles and pits and everything in between. I would be upset if my regional event limited pit access to x individuals per team when I could register for another event and have no restrictions. We can have about 6-8 people working in our pit (and contained in the 10x10 space) and have several more pit scouting or checking out other robots for their own enjoyment at any given time. It would also require a very organized and staffed volunteer system to put in place. I also don't the other xx individuals on my team feel excluded from the pits because they haven't been given the magical pass.

The answer is teams managing their team members. A proper pit manager (whether student, coach, mentor, etc) should make sure their team isn't spilling out of their pit and has a safe number of people. Everyone needs to police themselves to understand when they are needed in the pit area and when they are just in the way. Teams also need to design workable pit spaces. At every regional there are always those teams whose pit decorations and setup take up most of the 10x10 space meaning workers spill into the aisle and anyone who needs to ask a questions must do so from the aisle. Oddly enough those are also the teams with the most bodies around their pit areas. Oh well! :rolleyes:

I think FIRST should have 1-2 volunteers per event whose job it is to walk around the pit and address traffic issues. If it becomes part of our culture to keep aisles clear we won't be having these problems.

Re: Petition to end the shouting of ROBOT
 

Couldn't agree more!

Teams should be limiting the number of people around their own pit.
People looking around, talking to teams and checking out robots I don't see as a big issue, as long as they are mindful of their surroundings. But you really shouldn't have people hanging around the pits who aren't actively working on the robot, talking to judges, or mentors supervising.

Re: Petition to end the shouting of ROBOT
 

Manage your own pit.

I vote, yes, stop yelling Robot.

Re: Petition to end the shouting of ROBOT
 

100x this thread. At the Buckeye Regional this past weekend, I literally cringed every time I heard someone belt out "ROBOT". It's a robotics competition, we know. When someone from our team began to do it, I would quickly mention to him/her to maybe say "Excuse us, please".
When we did that, a positive response came forth. Instead of people scrambling to move, as I concluded is the average reaction to hearing yells of mechanical entities moving forth in the aisle, people calmly stepped aside and said "No problem", to which we replied "Thank you".
It's not about letting everyone know that YOU are coming through, you're just taking safe and calm precautions to get to where you're going while preventing headaches and panic.

On the other side of things, it is a sense of tradition that would be lost to history. Then again, so did personalized, team bumpers, and reserving seats in arenas.

The shouting of "ROBOT" is like a cowbell at Cross Country races, you hate the sound so much, especially when you're not running. But when you leave the race, or the season ends, you miss it.

However, I, too, vote in favor to end it. Or at least reduce the possibility of it happening.

Re: Petition to end the shouting of ROBOT
 

Signed. There are more effective means of clearing a path, the best to be have someone who stands 5 feet or so in front of the cart tapping peoples shoulders as a warning.

After a short time at competitions hearing about how a robot is moving the entire competition away from where you are, the next time you hear it behind you, you tend to ignore it... Its pretty bad how by the end of the first day, what you use to identify movement of heavy robots are generally ignored because its hard to tell where they are coming from when they are all the same loudness.

I find the best is to be just a bit on the quiet side. Its so different from everything else that it catches the attention better.

Also, you may want to add a limit on the DJ's volume, because if its too loud, its difficult to hear yourself think let alone hearing "Excuse me, I have a robot behind me." :yikes:

Re: Petition to end the shouting of ROBOT
 

I agree that teams need to work on keeping their kids from crowding around the pit.... I have a team of nearly 100 students and can attest that it is possible - albeit difficult at times. (When the robot has an accident, for instance, kids naturally want to see for themselves what happened.) We do chase them away (back to the stands) telling them that a runner (usually me) will come to the stands with a full update as soon as the issue is diagnosed. In order to help with this we: Volunteer for every single job we can (safety goggles, FLL judge, field reset, etc.); Over-scout, assigning very specific tasks for students; formally organizing cheering. As there is no limit to the number of kids who can cheer at once, our students *always* have something to do.

We very much do encourage our kdis to visit everybody else's bit as it helps them to ask questions about the engineering behind other teams' robots and build communication skills - something that some of our more mathematically-minded kids can use to improve. It would be shameful to end this practice.

The biggest thing we need is a venue that can handle us. In Seattle on both Friday and Saturday, we had a problem in that the stands completely filled (aside from a few seats from which the field could not be seen), the aisle between the stands and the field became overly-crowded and there was not anywhere to go.

Re: Petition to end the shouting of ROBOT
 

While a rule may not be as effective as we would wish, my main point is that Safety Advisers should not be rewarding/encouraging this behavior.

Re: Petition to end the shouting of ROBOT
 

I find the shouting of robot very annoying and obnoxious. My coach tells our team never to shout robot. Instead, you should say, "Excuse me, robot coming through." or "Could you please move, robot coming through." Even when we were late to a match, we still continued to hold to this term.

Re: Petition to end the shouting of ROBOT
 

I propose that if a letter is actually drafted for FIRST HQ, it be centered not just around safety advisers mandating "ROBOT!", but around better safety advice in general, including but not limited to:

1. Advocating the Polite Vanguard Technique
2. Further encouraging pit activities to be confined to the pit (namely by the safety advisers advising any team that cannot contain its equipment, personnel and visitors to change one of the former)
3. Examining the practices required and rewarded by safety advisers and the safety award (safe or spectacle? how are advisers trained?)

Thoughts?

It's what...err, one, two, three...seven* years old? I'd really like to know how it became tradition in the first place. Was it at a Green Shirt meeting in 2007 or something? The UL winner at Championships? (I actually don't remember in the Mid-Atlantic until 2008.)


*wait, no, seven? seriously, seven? I don't want to be old :(

Re: Petition to end the shouting of ROBOT
 

The irony in this is brilliant. I happen to find it annoying when people feel it necessary to increase their text size to get their point across.

Re: Petition to end the shouting of ROBOT
 

The pits are historically a very chaotic place, and for good reason. The shouting of "Robot!" is, as already pointed out, a degenerative practice that does little to increase order in the pits.

The way I see it, there are several factors at play that can be manipulated:

• Overcrowding can be reduced by limiting the number of persons allowed in the pits
• Space can be allocated more efficiently: add aisles dedicated to robot transportation
• Teams can take it upon themselves to reduce the noise and disorder.

The third bullet, IMO, is the easiest to undertake, as it is a simple behavioral change that doesn't affect the grandeur of the pits. I'd like to add some more thoughts as to how you can achieve more order with the polite method of robot transportation:

• As stated, send one or two members a few feet ahead to begin clearing space.
• If you are able to maneuver the robot + cart around a group, do so, and without voicing your intent. This is my #1 issue: teams generally call "Robot!" without thinking about the path they're taking through the pit, as it they should have a straight-line trip to/from their pit. If it is possible to avoid someone, quietly and politely do so.
• Be patient! If there is a roadblock, wait for people to move and thank them for doing so afterwards. Common courtesy goes a long way.
• To aid in many of the situations mentioned in this thread involving extremely crowded pits, I would suggest everyone takes trip time into account. I realize this can be hard for teams trying to make it onto the field, but this is where your path-clearing members come in handy. Make sure people are well aware that a robot will be coming through in a moment, but again, do so in an amicable manner.

I'm going to try to speak with the safety advisors at our next event on Thursday morning and convince them to help with the endeavor of keeping the pits as quiet and professional as possible. I think this is a good short-term solution, if at least someone at each regional has a courteous discussion with the nice green-shirted folk :)

Re: Petition to end the shouting of ROBOT
 

Ah, so you were annoyed by yelling in text. Which, as it happens, is precisely what the point was--the yelling of the word "robot" to clear a path is annoying multiple people.


For Siri:

Yes to all three. I would actually start out with the third one, pointing out that "safety" advisors are actually advocating practices that either hinder safety or do not advance it, in addition to actual safe practices. (And be specific.) Actually, I'd be sure to point out that it's only at some events, so there is distinct inconsistency. Then I'd cast the first two as better alternatives to one of the issues discussed previously, and note the need for better training on other items. I just think that that order makes better logical sense, better flow, that sort of thing.

Re: Petition to end the shouting of ROBOT
 

I think the main point is,

Whatever it is you say: "Excuse me, robot coming through!", "We're late for our match, pardon us!"... and yes, even "Robot!"....

...don't be a jerk about it.

That means, use your inside voice (even if it's toward the loud end of your inside voice), be kind, and THANK the person after they move to help you.

I'm definitely in agreement with the one-person-in-front method: When I coach, I serve as that person, along with whichever student is holding the controls. My drivers can get the cart into the queue line just fine on their own, and I'd rather take the time to be polite to those in front of us.

You never know who that person you just yelled at is. They could have been your future sponsor, but you just screamed at them for standing sort-of-near-you and now they think you're maaaaaybe not the best choice.

It's about attitude, not the sentence length. This is definitely not a practice anyone should be promoting, because it just leads to more noise and more confusion for most people.

EDIT:: Oh yeah, and I signed/shared the petition link, too.

Re: Petition to end the shouting of ROBOT
 

The space issue in the pits is part of the problem here. If there weren't so many excess people in the aisles, teams transporting robots wouldn't need to continue the practice.

Personally, at this year's WPI Regional, even with the extra pit space afforded to us because we were against an angled wall in the new building, I occasionally found myself asking students to stay in the pit area. Our team is rather small, so it wasn't an issue of too many people in the pit, it was an issue of the kids wandering ever so slightly.

I've also been on a pretty big team, and with the kids that stand around and do nothing, parents, kids talking to other kids in the aisle, etc., it can get hectic quickly. At one point we had non-essential members leave the pit, at least for a while. It was the only way we could hear ourselves think.

Obviously I'm an advocate of pit management as a solution to this issue. I understand that this solution isn't easy; 100 ft^2 isn't a whole lot of space to fit the robot AND everyone and everything you need in the pit. Let the kids and their parents get a quick shot with the robot and a chat with mentors quickly. Don't let them clog up the aisle.

Another thing someone brought up is the "Robot Only Lane", which, lets face it, would be used by people as well unless it was well enforced, and that's one or two more volunteers that events need to have (which in some cases is one or two too many).

I'm of the mind that yelling obnoxiously, unnecessarily, loudly and even rudely, is wrong, whether you're yelling "ROBOT (COMING THROUGH)" or "POPCORN, GET YOUR POPCORN HERE!". Use it when you need to, but be polite about it. Be smart.

Re: Petition to end the shouting of ROBOT
 

That's brilliant! Use a decoy! :p

Re: Petition to end the shouting of ROBOT
 

Question: are we all serious about this? Something like

We are writing to you today as a group of concerned mentors and volunteers. It has come to our attention that some teams are receiving advice from safety advisors that either hinders or does not advance safety. Though there is considerable variation between events, we are concerned that some competitions have begun to advocate unsafe practices or reward spectacle, potentially at the expense of safety. Here are a few examples:

• Requiring teams to yell “Robot!” when relocating, despite the contribution to chaos and dangerous noise levels in the pits. It is additionally startling and distasteful to the general public and desensitizing to teams, while a simple “please excuse us” has proven effective at many other events.
• Rewarding or abetting teams that engage in this and similar “spectacle” practices (such as stopping all traffic or attempting to control intersections) that have minimal if not negative safety consequences.
• Requiring the use of gloves in situations contrary to OSHA standards (for instance while operating small band saws), or mandating other non-standard or even unsafe practices. This can create very serious safety hazards for both teams and visitors.

As an alternative, we propose that safety advisors across all events reexamine the safety value of the practices they support, and ensure they are advocating OSHA standards correctly. In addition, we support the use of a polite escort in front of teams’ robots during transit in order to request specific people to move as required. For situations in which the pits are overly crowded, we suggest the safety advisors routinely remind teams that all equipment, personnel and visitors remain in their pit area, and that any overflow is best remedied by limiting equipment or team members (so as not to impact visitors’ access to FIRST).

This is the crux of the debate. Keep the pit area clear for transition.
-JW

Re: Petition to end the shouting of ROBOT
 

At a recent MAR event, a small one, not quiet, but quiet enough to easily get by with an "Excuse us.", one safety captain insisted on shouting "Robot" unnecessarily loudly whenever they moved the robot. Whether anyone was in the way or even close by. I think even his team got annoyed, because at one point he is walking back from the field shouting as usual at the top of his lungs.

"Robot!" screamed he.
"Where?" queried a mentor from another team.

I looked up and, sure enough, there was no robot in sight. Apparently his team stopped following to see how far he would get. About 100 feet as it turned out. Best laugh I had all day. (he was quieter subsequently)

I'll sign.

Re: Petition to end the shouting of ROBOT
 

After reading this thread, I'll sign the petition as well.

As many have pointed out, shouting "ROBOT" is rather rude and obnoxious.

In any event a simple polite excuse me is more than enough. I've been in large venues, small venues, noisy pits etc... There really is no need to be shouting "ROBOT".

A simple parade approach works well. One person leading the way clearing a path politely saying "Excuse us Please, Robot coming through" is more than adequate.

Re: Petition to end the shouting of ROBOT
 

I signed.

Re: Petition to end the shouting of ROBOT
 

WOW, I guess FIRST really does watch Chief Delphi!

They just released a blog about Not standing in the Aisles and NOT yelling Robot!!!

I cannot believe that they can mandate & penalize this!

I personally don't think it should be mandated either way (for or against) - and am not signing a petition. I agree that sometimes its obnoxious, but that sometimes its the most clear and efficient way (if done respectfully) to communicate your intentions. I'm ok with the FORE analogy, as long as FORE isnt being yelled directly in my ear. Though I would guess FORE! is much more akin to FRISBEE! this year!

Re: Petition to end the shouting of ROBOT
 

Umm, wrong link? Funny video, though.

Re: Petition to end the shouting of ROBOT
 

April fools...too bad, just when I thought this thread was going somewhere :p

Re: Petition to end the shouting of ROBOT
 

Here's the actual video blog from first: FIRST blog: Safety advisors and yelling "Robot".

Re: Petition to end the shouting of ROBOT
 

I figured you'd pull that one. (I hovered before clicking, KNOWING that it's 4/1. Then checked the real blog. Then looked to see just what the video was.)



GDC's going to LOVE next year--4/1 is a Tuesday. Who knows what they'll pull out then...

Re: Petition to end the shouting of ROBOT
 

I sign. Our robot-cart-puller has a real issue with the yelling of "ROBOT!", and I do too. It draws negative attention to your team, as it distracts everyone's attention from what they're doing to just see you pulling a robot.

I was the only one in a hallway, and a robot was being pulled towards me. It was a pretty wide hallway. I was on one side, and they were on the other. Yet they still yelled "ROBOT!" at me!

A simple "Excuse us" will suffice to get someone's attention. Not the obnoxious yelling of "ROBOT!".

Re: Petition to end the shouting of ROBOT
 

Sorry this was all just getting way too heavy for April 1st... and I had to find an excuse to use that video :D

Re: Petition to end the shouting of ROBOT
 

Haven't checked my calendar in a while... thought it was still January. I guess that's why all the due dates for my school work seemed so far off.

Re: Petition to end the shouting of ROBOT
 

So what is the point of even complaining on here? in my fours years apart of FIRST ( correct me if i'm wrong) this site does not affect the actual game manual, or anything in FIRST in that matter so it seems like the logical thing to do would actually complain to someone or somewhere ware you are not just "blowing Smoke"?

Re: Petition to end the shouting of ROBOT
 

Even if FIRST never did anything in response to a discussion on Chief Delphi (which I disagree), I'd argue this thread is still beneficial for many reasons, such as public awareness of the issue, or discussion on the causes of the issue. Teams can now start helping the problem instead of being ignorant of an issue? Seems to me like a good enough reason.

Re: Petition to end the shouting of ROBOT
 

On the one hand, the FRC Blog post literally four entries ago directly addressed a concern raised by a single person (maybe a couple, but not many) in mere days after the alliance station lifting ban. (Celebratory hugging--good question) HQ knows we're here.

More importantly in this case, we really don't need HQ to pilot and collect results of alternative methods, whether to initiate grassroots change and/or prepare a constructive letter (again not a new concept). Given that a good many of these issues can be mitigated through help of volunteer coordinators and other event-level officials, not to mention teams, this really is the logical place to start vying for change.

Re: Petition to end the shouting of ROBOT
 

Au contraire!

The discussions on Chief Delphi are monitored by FRC staff; we know this because quite often a question we CDers are divided on will be addressed early on, sometimes even before Q&A opens. (Also see Frank's "brain in a jar" blog post.) So, we know that what's going on on CD is monitored. A thread like this will at least be looked at, if not acted on. While officially, CD discussions won't affect anything in the game manual or anything else, you can bet that behind the scenes, CD has an effect. (Case in point: the 2011 minibots. TU#1 that year banned a specific class of minibots, better known as "projectiles", despite coming before Q&A opened--there had been a CD thread since Kickoff discussing launching minibots at the targets.)

Second, an official response will do almost nothing except to realign some Safety Advisors' thinking. When is the last time you saw someone observe the "no saving seats" rule? (BTW, I have seen at least one team observe that lately.)

However, that wasn't the point. If public awareness of the issue doesn't reduce the incidences (and increase the number of Safety Advisors whose robot-moving noise requirements are called into question), then maybe it's time to get FIRST to act. But by bringing the issue into the spotlight, more teams are made aware that the shouting of "Robot" is at best annoying and more frequently it's counterproductive. Fewer teams do it. FIRST, the community, can act without FIRST, the organization, acting officially. And when FIRST, the community, acts, they have a much louder presence than FIRST, the organization, just by sheer numbers, though FIRST, the organization, can win by authority of being the organizer and the rule-writers.


Which is why we are trying to bring this issue up.


Oh, and Siri: That text is just about perfect. There might be a few stylistic changes, or spelling/grammar, but those are pretty minor changes if they're even needed.

Re: Petition to end the shouting of ROBOT
 

Heh, during my first event, I was so confused as to why everybody kept yelling ROBOT.

You do have a point here... but personally, I'm not really bothered by it.

Re: Petition to end the shouting of ROBOT
 

Is yelling robot rude? No. Is it necessary? Absolutely not. But should it be banned? I think, if nothing else, it's a part of the culture. It's exciting when a robot is coming through! I think the most appropriate response is clapping or cheering, not any mental sarcastic response. Our team has missed enough matches for it to be exciting when we actually do go. I think those who want to have earned the right of yelling robot.

As for the actual practical value of it, it's not the ultimate solution. But I think it has a place. There are those (read: me) who might accidentally run out in front of a robot if they aren't aware of its presence. But I agree that yelling robot does not give you right to crash into those in your way, and too many think it does. I imagine a combination of yelling and vanguard-ing (I hope I used that right) would provide the fastest and safest route.

My point is that trying to talk people out of yelling robot isn't going to work. But instead, educate the idiots out there. Most people don't do the wrong thing intensionally. Tell them how they're messing up, and odds are, they'll fix it. We are, after all, a community of nerds. We didn't get here by doing the stupid or wrong thing.

Also, (because I forgot to work it into my rant) I think mandating the practice of yelling is rediculus. There are clearly those who are strongly opposed, and I think we should respect that.

Re: Petition to end the shouting of ROBOT
 

At a couple of events teams would have Safety Criers escort teams back to the pits to cry "ROBOT!" for them. I wanted one team to yell " Robot Parts! Freshs Robot Parts here!".

Re: Petition to end the shouting of ROBOT
 

From my understanding we didn't win the safety award at the Detroit event because of an issue we had with one of the safety judges. She stood in the aisle and would not move until we yelled robot. Instead, we walked around her.

Later, she said we bumped her with the robot when we walked around. I don't know if we did or not but after some discussion, I apologized. It didn't matter.

I heard she was the head safety judge at Troy. Hope you guys had fun there. I feel for you.


Someone also mentioned a dB meter. Another sore point with me. This is why we lost out on the safety award at the Traverse City event. The winning team had a dB meter. It didn't seem to matter because no one ever turned the sound down at the event. Does it really take a dB meter to tell you that it is too loud? When you can actual feel your head vibrating from the noise, it's too loud. We had our team members download sound meter apps on their phones and iPods.

We are planning to write a letter to UL. Just need to figure out where to send it.

Raffi

Re: Petition to end the shouting of ROBOT
 

That's just wrong. :eek:

A safety adviser blocks a team moving a robot just to insist yelling "ROBOT" to get by? That's contrary to what safety is really about.

I hope someone at FIRST addresses this before personal safety issues arise.

I won't tolerate student running in the pits and I'm about to get a lot more proactive about this rude, unnecessary shouting in the pits.

Re: Petition to end the shouting of ROBOT
 

This is a prime example of safety theater and I think the UL advisers should be warned to avoid encouraging this.

When the safety award becomes more about being visibly safe than being actually safe, then it becomes a problem. The posters, the criers, the safety handouts do absolutely nothing.

The most useful thing I've seen a safety team do was when 1629 handed out battery spill cleanup buckets to every team at the event that didn't have the materials already. That makes sense.

Posters and advertising safety do not. A safety culture does. Also, what's the deal with putting posters above urinals? It's just weird and a little invasive.

Re: Petition to end the shouting of ROBOT
 

I think the only acceptable thing, and team, to be yelling when moving their robot is Team 1939, the Kuh-Nig-Its, who occasionally push their robot and cry out "Bring out your dead!"

Re: Petition to end the shouting of ROBOT
 

I personally like the shouting of "Robot." It's my first year in FIRST, and when I showed up at my first regional, I loved hearing "Robot! Robot!" every few minutes. And I think it's very helpful to know when to get out of the way. Quite frankly, politeness is not worth the increased risk, even if it's only very slightly increased, that the robot that you've spent the last month working on could be injured.

Re: Petition to end the shouting of ROBOT
 

...it's not the robot we're worried about getting injured...

Re: Petition to end the shouting of ROBOT
 

At our regional we had one of our team member play drum and call out "hear ye hear ye...our robot is here ye!"

Bumping into public with robot or cart is not only rude, but dangerous too! I like the venues that have one door for robot entry and one for exit like Waterford, MI!

Re: Petition to end the shouting of ROBOT
 

I love how everyone who posts in this thread who is in favor of yelling "Robot!" just further reinforces my points stated in the original post.

Re: Petition to end the shouting of ROBOT
 

To me, the real problem is that so many teams seem to believe that the yelling of "Robot!" somehow gives them the right of way - and that the louder they yell, the more everyone should get out of their way.

As noted before, if you are late, that is not the fault of everyone in the pits. Get a good, polite vanguard to ensure safe passage. That's all that's needed.

I'd not seen the term "Safety Theater" but it seems appropriate. The floor littered with safety flyers is NOT safe. People yelling for no reason is not safe. My guess is that those flyers would go away if the award didn't exist... In fact how much of FRC "tradition" would change if the awards didn't exist?

- Mr. Van
Coach, Robodox

Re: Petition to end the shouting of ROBOT
 

See, that's what I don't want to see. I don't like it when people think they're ENTITLED to having the right of way when they have a robot. What I don't like is when there are 64 teams at a regional (ahem, DC and Chesapeake), and there are ~too many people in the pit area. I mean, there's music, the stands are ALL full (and this is a large, large convention center), there's machines running...all of this leads to a very chaotic, loud environment. However, some people just like to loaf around outside the pit, not really paying attention to anything in particular. These are the people for which, "ROBOT!" is the only way to get them to pay attention. As someone who was part of a "robot convoy" for 2537 (drive team), I've found that it's nearly impossible in some cases to get some people to pay attention. I've never been to a smaller regional so I don't know if this is a problem there as well, but all of the regionals I've been to have had 63+ teams except for DC this year, which had 59. With all those teams, it's.....hard to expect everybody to be able to see a robot all the time.

Like sanddrag I was at the LA Regional. 65 teams, still no need to yell ROBOT.

Re: Petition to end the shouting of ROBOT
 

I don't think, for me, it's so much what I yell so much as that I yell. People just need something to let them know that a robot is coming down the aisle. We had about 2-3 people going down ahead of the robot. One of them was me. Sometimes, I did need to yell. Should it be regular practice? Absolutely not. Is it necessary sometimes? IMO, without a doubt yes.

Re: Petition to end the shouting of ROBOT
 

Yelling to be heard is OK in my book. Being impolite is not.

Re: Petition to end the shouting of ROBOT
 

Then we're on the same page. ^^^See post above. I don't like impoliteness either. Drive teams are not entitled to having people move out of their way. However, "banning" would be quite harsh in my book.

Re: Petition to end the shouting of ROBOT
 

I'm having a hard time visualizing this. Were people standing firm when you asked them to move, only giving way when you shouted at them? Were you actually trying to get their attention with a calm "excuse me" and/or a tap on the shoulder, or were you just walking and expecting them to understand that you wanted to clear a space for a robot following you?

Re: Petition to end the shouting of ROBOT
 

Basically it's extra people standing outside of the pit. We call out "Excuse me." If that doesn't work we tap them on the shoulder because usually these are the people who have their back to us. By the time we yell, "ROBOT!!" or something of the like, it's...not really a "last resort", but more like, hey, um, we've asked nicely twice, please, there's a 135 lb. robot coming through with a large driver station and cart and there's no more room in the aisle.

Re: Petition to end the shouting of ROBOT
 

You're saying people still didn't get out of your way after you tapped them on the shoulder? Really?

Re: Petition to end the shouting of ROBOT
 

Ummm.....yes?

Re: Petition to end the shouting of ROBOT
 

Are you freaking kidding me?

Re: Petition to end the shouting of ROBOT
 

We have participated in regionals in many different venues including the previously mentioned Boilermaker and we have never shouted robot or been late to a match because of the crowd.

This weekend was a perfect example of why I hate the practice. While standing in my pit a team walked by and a student passing by shouted ROBOT at the top of his lungs right in my ear. It was completely unnecessary.

The opposite example was a large team that we had to pass bye on our way to the field. They almost always were in the way but when we came through with our robot they always quickly and politely cleared the way for us. Very good show of how things should be done.

Re: Petition to end the shouting of ROBOT
 

So we're competing in Arkansas this week, and even with the tiny arena, it's still unnecessary to yell "Robot!" Sure, you have to slow down because there's a lot of traffic, but when you have a line-of-site from your pit to the field, you don't need to go fast. Even from the teams in the wing, you can probably make it to the field in <5 minutes. So please just slow down, tap people and say "excuse me, please, robot coming through."

Re: Petition to end the shouting of ROBOT
 

lol............

Re: Petition to end the shouting of ROBOT
 

Well us as relative new team we actually didn't know that yelling ROBOT is kind of offensive for many people. This our third season (and my first) but we try not to say ROBOT because actually everyone can see people walking with a robot. We'll try to ask to move more politely with phrases such as "excuse me please"

Re: Petition to end the shouting of ROBOT
 

I personally don't have much of a problem with it provided they are not being rude. The kids seem to have some fun with it so as long as they are not offending people...I'm fine with it. No place for being rude though....and "please" goes a long way!

Re: Petition to end the shouting of ROBOT
 

Just another anecdotal piece, one of my students told me he was commanded to yell ROBOT by a safety advisor on the way to queue at Midwest today.