Who is going to be on Einstein?
 

I got into a conversation earlier with the captain of my team about Einstein. We had a long discussion about the merits of various robot types and their advantages in this game. I am curious as to the Chief Delphi community's expectations for this year. Without suggesting specific team numbers or names (as the field will likely contain at least SOME of the usual suspects), what will the alliances that compete on the championship stage (and ultimately the finals) be composed of?

In my opinion there are four to five basic robot types this year that are anyway capable in the game, and some combinations thereof. Based on the three regional events I have attended (Autodesk and CWA with my team and Seattle as a spectator), and more match videos then I care to admit (generally watched during English class), it seems that Human Loaders with fast drive trains have been dominating the field and I would be surprised not to see one in the winning alliance. Paired with a strong full court shooter and a good defender, they seem unstoppable. That said, the endgame is essential. If the same fast human loader is able to climb and dump for 50 in the last 30 or so seconds, I can't imagine an alliance that can shut them down easily.

• Human Loaders In order for a human loader to be effective, it seems like they must have a drive train to match. Teams that are able to drive quickly and put up the big points have dominated every regional I have seen. In Seattle, it was 1983, in Portland 955, and in CWA 1318, although they were knocked out in the Semis. 1114, while of course always incredible, by consistently making trips from the feeder to the pyramid and back (along with their 30 pt climb & 20 pt dump) is absolutely unstoppable.
• Full Court Shooters While both easy to defend and hard to dial in, a GOOD full court shooter can put up serious points. In Seattle, 948 absolutely destroyed the competition by hanging out the in the protected feeder station and putting Frisbee after Frisbee into the 3 point goal. Teams that attempted to defend them with hastily constructed shield were easily repelled by defense, and in elims, 1983 made it very hard for the blue alliance to shut down both robots. In ellensburg and portland, 1425 played commandingly, making themselves very hard to defend and outscore. A team that can both full court shoot and shoot from the pyramid has a double advantage here. 118 is perhaps best equipped to fill this spot on Einstein.
• Climbers This game lends itself well to specialization. Most 30 point climbers have a very specific focus and it is challenging for them to both shoot and climb even if they have the capability for both. It seems as if a 30 point climb, while essential to win, is only valuable if accomplished quickly. All scoring options have a theoretical cap. Assuming that the time for a trip of disks is low, human load shooters are only bounded by the number of disks. 30 point climbers, even if they are the fastest in the world, can only gain 30 points, 50 if they dump, per match. Only 4 teleop trips by a fast shooter can outscore this. In portland, 955 was making more than that and 1114 certainly has. I do not believe that dedicated climbers have a space on Einstein, but a team like 254 or 1114, who can both shoot and climb effectively are in a very very good position.
• Floor Pickup At the regionals I have attended, I have seen very few floor pickup machines. I don't know if this a function of strategy or difficulty of execution but it seems very rare. Although many of the powerhouse teams have the capability, they use it infrequently. It seems like after the discs in the center of the field are depleted, it is not worth the extra time and ambiguity to attempt to floor pickup. This is something I am very unsure about however, and it could have a much larger role in STL than I anticipated with teams such as 1986 and 2056 concentrating on it.

My guess for Einstein is that the strongest alliance will be composed of a robot that can human load and then rapid-fire shoot and then go for the 30 point climb and 20 point dump, a robot that can both full court and pyramid shoot effectively, and then a robot that is able to play very strong defense and possibly floor load.

What have you guys seen at regionals you've attended and what do you hope to see on Einstein?

Re: Who is going to be on Einstein?
 

If I was picking an alliance likely to go far (and I do mean far), I would pick the following:

1) Defense/climber/dumper, preferably with an autonomous shooting mode. I rank them first because they are the rarest of the rare--a fast 30+20 climb that can drive around and defend much of the match. I've seen just about one or two. (If none are available, take a #2 robot instead.)

2) Shooter with floor pickup. Human load, no problem. Floor pickup, even better--starve your opponents and get your first cycle in faster. However, an excellent automode is a MUST for this one. Fast speed for quick cycles, and a 10-point hang round out this one. Think 1114 and 1717 for this one--something on that order. (Also known as a "cycle runner".)

3) Either a second (third?) one of #2, or a dialed-in full-court shooter. I'll go with the FCS here; objective is to get the discs into the goals, draw defense, and if you can't get them in the goals to get them to where robot 2 can pick them up. Have robot 1 play some blocking on occasion. Ideally, able to run cycles instead of going long if they want to, 10-point hang. Oh, and good automode--no sense wasting discs.


I would say that there will be at least 1 alliance like this on Einstein; that is, one climb specialist, one cycle runner, one full-court shooter that can run cycles. I also see three good cycle runners on an alliance; that can go very deep. Two cycle runners and one climb or full-court specialist will also do well.


What I expect not to see is alliances with more than one climb specialist, or more than one full-court shooter. (Exception: FCS robots that can run cycles not counted in FCS counting.)

Re: Who is going to be on Einstein?
 

1. A floor feeder is a necessity in a good alliance. There will always be frisbees on the ground for them to pick up. Good climb perferable

2. Full Court Shooter- not many out there, and consistent shooters are even slimmer. A good full court shooter paired with a floor feeder will put every frisbee in the goal. 10 point climb?

3. Defense/Climb Bot- a defense bot is almost a necessity to keep other robots from blocking the FCS. The full court shooters are ineffective with a piece of lexan sitting in front of it. This bit can also be used to combat another FCS. A climb is preferable

Re: Who is going to be on Einstein?
 

No alliance will make it to Einstein without a floor loading robot. If they do, they've already lost before teleop begins. You can't start in a 24 point hole.

Re: Who is going to be on Einstein?
 

I see a winning alliance at championships having three particular robots:
1)
7 Disk autonomous
Shoots fast and accurately
50 Point endgame
2)
5 Disk autonomous using centerline frisbees
Shoots fast and accurately
10 point hang(ideally 30 point hang)
3)
3 Disk autonomous
Shoots fast and accurately(yes no defense;))
10 point hang

Re: Who is going to be on Einstein?
 

+1

Re: Who is going to be on Einstein?
 

Switch the endgame of #1 and 2, and I totally agree, although I can see #2 having a 3 disk auto.

Re: Who is going to be on Einstein?
 

I'm just having fun reading all this. Our team lost a regional to two posters, and won with another.

Re: Who is going to be on Einstein?
 

Floor loading is an obvious must, and so is climbing; but I think flexibility will win it all this year. With defense playing such a vital role, the team who can keep everyone guessing will always come out on top.

Re: Who is going to be on Einstein?
 

One robot must do a 50-point play.
One robot must do a 40-point play. (That's like a 50-point play, but with 2 discs since the partner got four. I don't see teams hedging on 45-45.)
One robot must do a floor pickup autonomous.
All three robots must have their autonomous dead-on and timed in sync.
I think you'll see a lot of joint climbs on the practice field, shades of triple balance practice last year.
Someone will have an 84" wall, even if it sits on the cart the whole time.

Re: Who is going to be on Einstein?
 

1. Corner-to-Pyramid
2. FCS
3. Ground Pickup

You will not win this year unless you go full offense.

Re: Who is going to be on Einstein?
 

I tend to agree with this, however adding to it:
2. FCS that is PRECISE (meaning 85%+) with the ability to go to pyramid if blocked. This allows him to "pin-down" a deefnding robot, who will try to block him, and so he can move to pyramid.

All robots should have AT LEAST 10 climb points, and at least one of them should have mrore than a 3-disc auto. Regardless, for all of them - auto should be perfect...

Re: Who is going to be on Einstein?
 

This might be an oddball sleeper alliance, but i could see a 7 disk auton floor pickup robot along with two full court shooters taking the bill. The key to this alliance heading to Einstein would be the work of the human players. The trick to this one is that most alliances will not have two dedicated "blockers" to stop both full courts. One can be in the protected zone with the other across the field. To stop both an alliance would have to let the floor pickup bot have free reign of the field.

On a slightly similar but close enough topic. Will a below seeded 6th alliance have a greater chance at Winning Einstein due to the different amount of strategy options that this game provides?

Re: Who is going to be on Einstein?
 

I don't necessarily agree with that. The number 1 alliance at Alamo did not advance to finals with their full offensive team. They were composed of:
1. 1477 with a guaranteed 3 frisbee auto and tried to get the middle 4
2. 624 with a 5-7 frisbee auto
3. 457 with a 3 frisbee auto

They started the semis with 70+ pts and still lost against a quick shooter from 4063, 2789 playing defense and allowing 2468 to shoot full court. It was close, but the primarily offensive team was upset.

Also just realized you were at Alamo so you were able to see this occur.

Re: Who is going to be on Einstein?
 

The #1 at Alamo wasnt full offense and you cannot honestly compare Alamo to Einstein and Champs. Imagine giving 1986/1806 or 2056/1114 a capable ground pickup or FCS. Seeing as we saw the 1114/2056/FCS at GTRE, they threw up like 230. And that was just a FCS that sprayed and prayed and played pretty much to just feed 2056.

Re: Who is going to be on Einstein?
 

I would say they were fully offensive because 457 ended up shooting at times and did not play absolute defense. I also understand Alamo was not on the level of Einstein, just that the fully offensive team will potentially fail. Slowing down the other team in this game, unless they are nimble and fit under the pyramid, can be very easy if you allow yourself the opportunity. I see it from last year, although game object deprivation cannot be accomplished this year, slowing down the other team by playing defense took 16's alliance to the top.

Re: Who is going to be on Einstein?
 

Waterloo, not GTRE ;) .

I personally don't agree with a full out offensive team, especially when one of those robots is a FCS. When you are limited to 45 discs + floor pick-up your alliance will starve itself before the end of the match due to your FCS' ability to unload every few seconds. Instead, an "enforcer" could be used to protect the FCS from any blockers. After all, the maximum height of a FCS will always be shorter than the maximum height of a defender. Once the FCS has don't its job, the defender has the time to do its climb, preferably a climb-and-dump or just a 30.

Therefore, an alliance that could easily make Einstein is:

1. A tall full-court shooter that is relatively accurate.
2. A floor pick-up robot that can clean up any misses and shoot 7 discs in autonomous.
3. A quick climber with a drivetrain strong enough to hold up against robots trying to go through it. Preferably with dumping capabilities.

Re: Who is going to be on Einstein?
 

There also wasn't very much defense being played at GTRE.

Re: Who is going to be on Einstein?
 

I think that the ideal alliance would have very close to the setup we had with our winning alliance at South Florida (180-1902-1251)

1. Full court shooter capable of pyramid shooting in case of a "SPAM Filter" (84 inch blocker named after one made by a team trying to stop 180's shooter)
2. Cycling pyramid shooter
3. Defense and Floor pickup

Essentially the full court and pyramid shooter score until they run out of discs (Generally with 55-50 seconds to go) while the third defends, at that point the two offensive robots defend and if one has pickup they go to do that along with the third robot. The other switches to defense.
At least one must have floor pickup capable of 7 disc autonomous.
Preferably one offensive bot has a 50 point climb.

The winning alliance will have to be a very versatile alliance capable of playing 3 robot offense or full defense in order to counter the strategies of whatever team they play against.

In order to win matches you do not have to score your maximum number of points, you just have to make the score difference a maximum, which is the reason the 180-25-16 alliance did so well. They prevented their opponents from scoring quickly and maximized their ability to score quickly that is the one thing that will always remain true no matter what game.

Re: Who is going to be on Einstein?
 

I'm willing to bet Dean Kamen will be on the Einstein field this year.

Re: Who is going to be on Einstein?
 

as of right now my pick would be:

An extremely efficient slot loader with a good climber

A good floor collector that can shoot extremely well or shoots decently and has a good climber

And a defensive robot to stop slot feeders and/or block slot shooters

My Current dream alliance then would be:

1114, 254, and a solely defensive bot (likely with a 10 pt hang)

-or-

1114, 987 or 2056, and a 30 pt climber (maybe a defensive bot if they can defend well enough to make up for the 20-30 pt difference in climb points)

Re: Who is going to be on Einstein?
 

Try betting against this, internet.

I'm going with Walt Havenstein.

Re: Who is going to be on Einstein?
 

It's all about match-ups. For instance:
A really good, tall full-court shooter can put up 140 points single match single-handedly if undefended. (18 pt autonomous, 41/51 scored disks from the feeder). With nothing more than partners, each with 18 point autonomous routines each, we're looking at nearly 180 points. If either can pick up disks, we'd be looking at scores in the 200's.

For the most part, you will need to defend against the FCS if you want to beat them. How? Easy, right? Put up an 84" blocker... However,
1) If the FCS has a strong drive train, you will need one, too - unless you want to be pushed across the autoline, incurring pentalities or lowering the shield allowing it to shoot.
2) If the FCS has mechanum wheels, you will need something similar in order to stay in front of it as it goes to the other side of the pyramid to shoot.
3) If the FCS has something in between... it might be able to beat you both ways.

Of course, there are other ways to deal with the tall FCS - such as not letting it get to the protected feeder with a short, nimble bot - or two, playing tag team. Taller robots are generally not nearly as nimble as shorter bots and have to be careful - lest they fall - and have a major disadvantage in that they cannot go under the pyramids.

In other words, no matter what you have, there is a way around it. I don't know of many teams able to change out a drive train between matches based on their next opponents...

I would expect that they key to making it to Einstein is to have three robots that each do a couple of things very, very well and whose abilities complement one-another. Moreover, they must have very good drivers and coaches who can make changes quickly. Plus, they must have a strategy coach who understands the strenghts and weakensses of both teams can can exploit them.

Re: Who is going to be on Einstein?
 

Pure defenders will not make Einstein.

Any robot that can attempt to shoot 3 discs minimum during autonomous and hang for a minimum of 10 points, can play defense and/or add a mechanism to block full-court shots. Robots who shoot 3 discs and can hang for 10 are dime a dozen, and in divisions where there are approximately 100 per, you should easily find 24 that meet the minimum criteria.
I'm still not sold on pure Full Court shooters for Einstein.
If a robot is solely used to block a FCS, then although that particular robot is no longer focused on scoring, neither is the FCS who becomes ineffective.

Manueverable and quick robots that can also go under the pyramid is key to this game in avoiding defense. The pyramid is the best pick and roll partner you can have.

Re: Who is going to be on Einstein?
 

No Peacock?

Re: Who is going to be on Einstein?
 

Awfully glad we went with a floor pick up seems to be turning out to be a very desirable attribute:D. After playing a match with 1662 (feeder station pick up) and scoring 131 disc points collectively with them I absolutely agree that having a feeder station/ground pick up alliance combination is a force to be reckoned with, not to mention 987 and 254 who with 2 ground pickups broke the 200 point mark several matches in a row:yikes:. It seems that those strategies complement each other better than almost any other. A full court shooter has the potential to either destroy the competition or get shut down very easily without an assisting counter-defense teammate. Whether they get blocked our not will decide their matches. I also think that having two 30 point climbers on an alliance also gives a bigger advantage than people have been saying as it is at least 60 more almost-unblockable points every single match without including the potential for an additional 20 point dump. If the other alliance is all 10 point climbers they have to be leading by 60 points at the buzzer just to match the other teams score. Aside from offense I've seen some defensive teams such as 294 at CVR completely shut down the opposing offense. However, the defensive role this year can be filled very easily by any fast robot with a good driver; meaning that we will probably be seeing a couple of alliances made of 3 offensive powerhouses that have the versatility to play any role during the match.

Re: Who is going to be on Einstein?
 

I don't think any estimation we make can hold before division lists are published. You have to look at every division independantly and only then you can try and guess which robots and which types of robots can qualify.
For example, if you get a division with lots of canadians defenders have a good chance, since canadians are mostly offensive and not very good around defence (according to what I saw at waterloo and GTRW).

Re: Who is going to be on Einstein?
 

I concur that these are the types of alliances that will show up out of half of the divisions.

It may come down to a bad cRio, a disconnected battery, or (hopefully not) the FMS. :eek:

Re: Who is going to be on Einstein?
 

I'm still holding out for that Mechanum wheel kitbot to break through finally.

Re: Who is going to be on Einstein?
 

I hope they feel the same way and have had the chance to watch some of our matches ;)


We think so, too...which is why we're adding a shooter thanks to the help of our good friends at 4063!

This is 2789's first trip to championship, and we were planning on going starry-eyed and simply happy to be there, but now we are hoping to make a statement. See y'all there!

Re: Who is going to be on Einstein?
 

My money's on this ^^

Re: Who is going to be on Einstein?
 

Not that I've seen every robot in FRC, but...who the heck does all of this? I've not heard of any robot that does both 7-auto and climb-and-dump.

Re: Who is going to be on Einstein?
 

After seeing all of the "nothing but offense" posts, I can't wait to pair up with a Full Court Shooter in St. Louis!

I will dissent with the braintrust and say that at least one Einstein alliance will have a robot that plays a primarily defensive role in eliminations (albeit one that can score in auto and climb for 10+...prerequisites for playing on Saturday afternoon at CMP this year).

Re: Who is going to be on Einstein?
 

The defensive question is easy: can you pick a robot that can consistently prevent more points than it can score?

Let's say the 3rd robot will be a 40-50pt/match robot, with 28 of those points being 3 discs + a 10pt hang that you're going to get anyway. So that means the choice between telling this robot to defend or not comes down to whether you think the robot can stop an enemy from scoring 22 points in 2 minutes, while not fouling itself. I think that's right on the limit - that's slowing someone down to the tune of 2 cycles, or blocking/delaying 7-8 shots from a FCS. You'd need good scouting about your opponent's average score rate to figure out if a defend/offend decision is working out.

If the 3rd robot is a 60-70pt/match robot, then the decision becomes much harder.

Also, points per match is another tough metric to use: if, between the other two robots, you actually score all the discs, then your 3rd robot's 60-70pt/match credentials mean nothing.

Re: Who is going to be on Einstein?
 

If you can't block a full court 3pt shooter with one of your robots you will lose. Beyond that the rest of your post applies.

Re: Who is going to be on Einstein?
 

A team sponsored by UTC will be on Einstein. ;)

Re: Who is going to be on Einstein?
 

Get to work programming, Rangel!

Re: Who is going to be on Einstein?
 

You would be correct. From what I've seen, the only robots with a 7 disk auto that can do more than a 10 pt hang are you (1986) and 254. Neither of these robots have a dumper.

Re: Who is going to be on Einstein?
 

842? But I think they only do 3 colored discs.

Regardless, not very common. I'd venture you're more likely to get a decent 30 point climb as a second pick than a 7 disc auto + 50 point end game at draft location.

Re: Who is going to be on Einstein?
 

I'd think all of the three robots needs at least 3 disc in 3 pt goal in auto. Then you need two fast, versatile robots that shoot accurately into the 3pt goal then 1 robot that can play defense, but if needed is able to shoot. Then all three robots will have a quick less than 5 sec 10 pt hang.

To all those going full offense, 1 player of defense could change the game, at least at my regional a lot of games were due to good defense.

Re: Who is going to be on Einstein?
 

Yup :cool:

Re: Who is going to be on Einstein?
 

I think this might be my favorite 1st post ever.

Re: Who is going to be on Einstein?
 

254 has not yet demonstrated a 7 disk auto...a 5 disk, yes.

Re: Who is going to be on Einstein?
 

'Blocking' an FCS in the traditional sense** would imply that you would even allow that FCS to get to the point where they would need to be 'blocked'... ;)

**With a wall or similar 'tall' disc stopping thing.

Re: Who is going to be on Einstein?
 

Well you have to look at it like this, imagine this Championship alliance: 2056, 1806, 1902.(I know, this would never happen at Champs but still to my point) If you stop 2056, you still have 1806 and 1902; stop 1902, you still have 2056 and 1806; stop 1806, you still have 2056 and 1902.

The point I was trying to make was that if you have a capable corner loader/ground pickup(it changes depending on what your AC/1st pick is), you turn the match into a 2v2 try and outscore us match.

Whereas, you have 2056, 1806, 2789(as of this last week of competition) you shut down(I know you cannt because they are 2056 but you know what I mean) 2056 or 1806, you turn the match into a 1v1 or 1v2 match which makes it much harder to win.

Having that one extra capable scorer eases the sting of having one of your major scorers abilities dampened by a defender.

Re: Who is going to be on Einstein?
 

I want a return of the "EH Team"

That is all.

Re: Who is going to be on Einstein?
 

2056 - Ground Pickup
1114 - Corner-to-Pyramid
4334 - FCS

:yikes: ...omg...it's like they planned this out...

Re: Who is going to be on Einstein?
 

What if you have an alliance of 987 + 1986 + D bot vs 3 offensive bots, none individually better than 987 or 1986?

The D bot needs to only shut down 1 of the 3 of the offensive scorers for the match to go to 987's alliance's favor. This may be a match strategy thing rather than alliance strategy (everyone wants a solid drivetrain and 3 disc autonomous shooter for their third robot) probably, due to the depth of the championship field.

Re: Who is going to be on Einstein?
 

First off, humbled and mind blown that our team is even mentioned anywhere near this conversation!

Second off, part of the reason why we've been so successful is because we know when to stop playing defense to go protect our shooters by setting picks on the opponent's defenders. We are able to transition quickly from banging into the opposing offense to cutting off their defenders, and we're lucky that we have a driver that can pull it off! This way we try to frame the holistic offense for the match in more of a 2 (us) vs 1.5 (them) in the sense that we can't stop an amazing robot from putting up points, we just try to slow them down enough to give our shooters a chance while also trying to protect our partners from being harassed.

Re: Who is going to be on Einstein?
 

From what I've seen, you guys are the best defensive bot this year.

Re: Who is going to be on Einstein?
 

Who will be on Einstein?

Paper Airplanes. Paper Airplanes Everywhere. :D

Re: Who is going to be on Einstein?
 

Actually, at least how they were calling it at CT, the FCS would receive the technical foul in this situation. That strategy was determined to be "forcing the other alliance to get a penalty".

This doesn't work. FCSes take time to line up, and as soon as it leaves the protected zone it can be rammed indefinitely.

I honestly do not think an FCS is a hard requirement for Einstein. A 7-disc floor loader (or at least extra points) is far more important, and all three robots need to score in auto. I think for that reason, 3 of the 4 alliances are guaranteed to have a floor loader on them. From there, a triple volume offense strategy can actually stay competitive versus an FCS / rebounder / defender + hang combination.

You want as much offense as possible with as many quick "extra" points as possible this year, either in the form of a complex autonomous or a high hang. That's not to say there won't be plenty of D, but everyone should have scoring ability for maximum versatility.

Re: Who is going to be on Einstein?
 

To be honest, I would very much prefer it if those 3 all ended up at different divisions (if 1114 and 4334 end up together, it's fine, but no other combination).
While I loved watching them play and loved 1114 and 2056 together at their regionals this year, I think those teams together make the game un-even, even for some of the bigger powerhouses (maybe all of them, they definitely risk all the teams I saw playing), and to be honest, it's getting kind of boring. I'd rather see them pair up with other big teams, and maybe face off at Einstein.

Re: Who is going to be on Einstein?
 

* It sounds like the referees need to communicate across the events... The rationale for not callling the technical on the FCS was basically this: If a 60" robot were attempting to block the FCS and the FCS pushed it across the autoline to open up a shot, there woudl be no foul. However, shoudl that 60" robot, between matches, suddenly duct tape a pool noodle on it's top, it would suddenly be illegal to shove it out of the way. Moreover, if the FCS attempted to go around the "pool noodled defender,' it risked either hitting the pyramid or knocking Pool Noodle into the pyramid, incurring fouls. This effectively meant that the 84" defender could contorl the entire right side of the court.... This seemed unreasonable - giving a little too much to the "power of the pool noodle." The judgment was made that, so long as the FCS was tryign to open up a shot, it had a right to try to clear the other robot out without worrying about commiting a foul.

* As for how long a FCS takes to line up, that really depends on the robot and driver. I saw 1425 in Central Washington slide 3' to its left and hit a pair of three-pointers in a period of about five seconds -with the biggeest delay being in the firing mechanism. The first shot was off in less than two seconds. 948 can line up for several different shots just as quickly. Both robots' biggest delay is when they try to line up perfectly such that they are in line with the feeder *and* the three point goal at teh same time - this is much trickier than just lining up with the three pointer.

Is a FCS necessary for Einstein? No. No particular robot is. However, a good FCS is brutal weapon that can certainly help.

Re: Who is going to be on Einstein?
 

In Seattle a foul was not called against the fcs if there were Frisbees in the hopper for a pyramid run. What cpr(can't remember number) did was put a retractable stick out the front of their robot so that a defender could not get close enough to block shots without a technical foul

Re: Who is going to be on Einstein?
 

We asked the ref about doing that, too... However, he said that, should the stick get inside another robot and, say, strike its electrical board, it would be a technical on teh FCS, so we chose not to do that.

Re: Who is going to be on Einstein?
 

A return of the Eh team just isn't going to happen.

Chances of them all being in the same division are 1/16, and even then, I'm sure the other 7 alliances would put a stop to it.

Re: Who is going to be on Einstein?
 

I agree with the assessment that a FCS blocker will be very important to success on Einstein. Not a 'noodle bot' though, noodles and other soft disc blockers can still allow discs to travel the entire length of the field.

My anecdotal evidence: the one match at CT where we (95) went up against 195, arguably the best FCS at CT, we shut them down to something like 6 or 8 discs scored during the entire teleop period. 195 got two or four from full-court position, then only one cycle of 4 discs, with no time left for a 10pt hang. They were also unable to draw any fouls on us. In one of their other matches where they were un-defended 195 emptied their entire frisbee reserve including colored discs, scored most of them, got a 10pt hang, and their alliance set the first high score at the CT regional, something like 176 with no foul points.

We reduced their teleop scoring capacity from 100+ points to less than 20 points with 100% clean defense using our climbing arm. We were very surprised that no alliances picked us at CT to specifically counter 195, but were entirely thrilled to be playing with them in the afternoon.

In general I think the winning alliance will be a FCS, a ground pick-up shooter, and a defense/climbing multi-ability robot that can be assigned to protect the FCS, harass opponent shooters, and/or climb and dump for 50. 10pt hang is a minimum requisite for all robots. I think that a good FCS and ground loader can get basically every disc into the 3pt goal in a match (especially if undefended) which makes a 3rd shooting robot superfluous and a good defender/protector/climber more important. Ideally all robots will have an auton move and all available frisbees will be spent, of course.

Re: Who is going to be on Einstein?
 

-CPR is 3663

I noticed this too. Refs at Central last weekend seemed to call it more often. In Seattle, the refs seemed to hold back on calling the safety-zone fouls against FCS's. If there are discs in the hopper or not, a full-court shooter is still going to be hindered by defense.

It will be interesting to see how consistently this is called at champs.

Re: Who is going to be on Einstein?
 

Due to wildcard and a new regional there will be more canadian teams attending this year. I could imagine it'll be possible to assemble an all canadian team in any division (And given the play of some of the top teams not named 1114 and 2056, it might be just as effective as the last one).

Re: Who is going to be on Einstein?
 

If I was given the option between a robot that can shoot at the pyramid quickly and consistently (5-6 lightly defended cycles) and have a 5 disc center-line auto, that puts it miles above an FCS.

I have not seen much talk about how much the game piece count will factor in late divisional eliminations and Einstein. There will likely be no more than 1 disc per alliance on the floor after auto is over, and if you have two quick, dialed in pyramid shooters that can run 5 cycles by themselves and an available "street sweeper" that could pick up that extra cycle's worth of discs back that the wall then proceed to pick up whatever it can find on the field, what use is a full court shooter? In a hypothetical match pairing a shooter/30-pointer, shooter/intake/10-pointer, and shooter/10-pointer hang, you will be getting just as much out of the shooter/10pointer as a full court shooter, in my opinion.

Alliances that make it to Einstein will have at least one robot doing intake all match, at least one robot that can run teleop cycles and make a quick enough hang to matter, and the second pick will likely be the best robot the alliance had left on their board, be it a center-line auto and teleop shooter, a cycle-based shooter, and a full court shooter that can run cycles in that order.

I feel averse to saying full court shooters can just flip a switch to running cycles and it's practically the same thing like some others are. Running efficient cycles is about your drive team sticking to and thriving under that strategy. 422's cycle count would increase as the day progressed, from 2 by match 1, adding a cycle (unintentionally) in each match. It's a rhythm. Teams like 620 (remember them, guys?) likely practiced running cycles until their drivers got sick of them, shaving off as many seconds as possible to add in more, but hey, they got 7 cycles in only one match in Week 1. Having to adjust that rhythm in the middle of championship eliminations is probably not going to be a wise pick. That's not the time you want to get wishy-washy on strategy.

Re: Who is going to be on Einstein?
 

Having the autonomous capability and performing on the field is not the same thing. Nothing is guaranteed. In the last Semi match our Alliance only had 5 discs scored in auto and lost the match by 4 points. We were getting 9-10 auto discs the previous Elim matches. Would have been nice to "start the Semis with 70+ points" but it didn't happen.

2789 gets credit for playing excellent defense and 4063 and 2468 proved they were very capable shooters. They played very well togheter and in the end made it happen on the field.

Re: Who is going to be on Einstein?
 

There are a number of combination possibilities, however I think the greatest use of the Cross Court Shooter will be its ability to necessitate and draw a defender to it, allowing for more space for two fast, accurate and efficient run & gun teams.
I think the alliance that can score 15+ auto discs will have a good time. (15+?!? How is that possible? 3x3 plus 4 plus 2+ from the middle line) 90 auto points will put pretty much anyone in an insurmountable hole.

1114 and 2056 will not be in the same division this year. I can almost guarantee that.

Re: Who is going to be on Einstein?
 

Factually incorrect.

Yes, there will be more Canadian teams qualified for CMP than ever before. It very well may be possible to build an all Canadian alliance in any division (there have been many CMP divisions in the last 10 years where this was possible)

Where you're wrong is the third point. There are no other Canadian teams even remotely close to the strength of 1114 and 2056. 610 is the closest, and even they can't hold a candle to 1114 or 2056.

Using OPR as a metric, at GTREast, 2056 alone was approximately the same strength as 1241 and 4343 combined.

Don't get me wrong, many of Canada's second tier teams (610, 1241, 1310, 1334, 4343, 772, 4039, and more) are plenty strong. Strong enough to win regionals in many other places. Strong enough, even, to perhaps make Einstein, but 1114 and 2056 are just so much stronger than anyone else here, to say that any other all-Canadian alliance could be similarly strong to an 1114+2056+4334 alliance is just wrong.

Re: Who is going to be on Einstein?
 

No you can't. All you can say is that there is a 75% chance that they won't be.

Re: Who is going to be on Einstein?
 

I was convinced for a while that the high scoring autonomous was crucial, but we were able to come back from a massive points deficit almost every match at the CT regional eliminations, finals especially. I believe it was 18-54 at one point, we came back to win 179-128. By the 80 second mark, we had already surpassed them in points (thanks to 195's FCS). I'm not entirely sure that the high scoring auto will be absolutely necessary for divisions. Advantageous, yes, but crucial, maybe not.
Finals 2, coming back from a heavy loss in autonomous:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4JabpLSeudg

Re: Who is going to be on Einstein?
 

Looking at the scores which are being put up at normal regional events, I think that an Einstein alliance will need to be able to put up 200-250 points consistently. This may vary depending on the level of defense played. Now, if an alliance was to put every white disk in their player station into the 3pt goal, that is only 145 points. And that rarely ever happens. So even more than many people are saying, I think that autonomous and climbing will be the difference.

So my conclusion for an Einstein Aliance:

1. A 7 disk autonomous robot which will continue to sweep the floor throughout teleop.
2. A robot who gets disks off the center line during autonomous. Ideally it would do so 987 style, but most likely it will just get 2. Also, it needs to be accustomed to running cycles in autonomous, because at championships there will not be the plenty of disks on the floor which can support 2 like good ground pickups like at regionals.
3. A consistent 3 disk autonomous robot with a good drivetrain/driver to play defense. Should also be able to hook up an 84in blocker.

Notice that I didn't mention climbing. That is because I think climbing is going to be a big variable between Einstein alliances. For now, I will just assume that there will be a 30 point climber and two 10 point climbers, and I can't tell which of the 3 robots will get the 30.

So lets add up the points:

Autonomous:
15 disks x 6 points = 90 points

Teleop:
5 cycles from the ground loader + 5 cycles from the feeder station=10 cycles
10 cycles x 4 disks=40 disks
40 disks x 3 points=120 points

Climbing:
50 points

90 + 120 + 50=260 points

Considering that things will go wrong and defense will be played, that puts this alliance right where I expect an Einstein alliance to be.

Re: Who is going to be on Einstein?
 

An alliance like this is most effective if the floor pickup bot can perform a seven frisbee auto and the defensive bot has a powerful drivetrain that can keep an opposing FCS out of their feeder station. Also, like you said, the FCS MUST. BE. CONSISTENT. Finally, if we're talking about Einstein, only exceptional coaching and performance under pressure combined with a pinpoint strategy will create a sufficient alliance.

Re: Who is going to be on Einstein?
 

From looking at this from a pure offensive scoring position, I think that a climber/dumper with 3 disc auto and some defensive play could be a candidate. This robot would score a guaranteed 68 points every match and if the other partners could do just as well, the total score would be 204 points.

Re: Who is going to be on Einstein?
 

I'm pretty certain that the "pure offense" strategy will not work. After watching several of the regionals from the current season, most of the "defense" was just a robot moving side to side along the centerline and occasionally the tall blocker to attempt and deflect full-court shots. A more risky strategy, requiring a stellar drive team, is the man-to-man defense (or, since CD likes using hockey for this challenge, body-checking) as was displayed by 2789 TEXplosion at the Lone Star and Alamo Regionals. By making the trip back-and-forth from the feeder station a nightmare for the pyramid shooters with a quick and powerful drivetrain, they were able to delay the number of cycles these pyramid shooters were able to make taking it down from 5+ cycles to even just 1 cycle. They also had a removable blocker for those pesky FCS'. Even matched up against the now famous alliance of 1114 and 2056, I think a good defender could completely take down one, if not both robots. I'd imagine the scores in the finals of each division will only be around 150, assuming this strategy of man-to-man defense gets played.

I think the alliance that gets to Einstein will be composed of:

-Extremely mobile pyramid shooter with under-pyramid capability and 7 disk auto

-Full-court shooter with perfect 3 disk auto

-Fast and strong drivetrain defender with good drive team

Re: Who is going to be on Einstein?
 

Not to mention, the FCS better be able to run to the pyramid to shoot if need be, and absolutely must hit all three autonomous shots. FCSs that are 1-trick robots will be shut down entirely.

Re: Who is going to be on Einstein?
 

I think that the two most important positions on an alliance are a feeder station robot (whether that be a FCS or just a fast cycler) and a floor loader (preferably with a multi-disc autonomous). The third robot can occupy a multitude of positions- from defensive climber to "offensive lineman"/climber or even another cycle-runner.

I think this year- above all other previous years- is going to see the largest disparity in alliance composition on Einstein.

All of the above being said, sometimes you'll have robots that can fill a sort-of combination niche- like 1986- who has a 7 disc auto, but during teleop plays the role of a fast feeder station loader. So an alliance like 1986-987-3rdRobot would still work because they have complementary multi-disc autos and play different roles on an alliance.

Re: Who is going to be on Einstein?
 

At Detroit, Team 469 scored lots of points with its fast and reliable floor pickup, and won the whole darn thing as Captain of the #1 alliance. I think a good floor pickup will have a place.

Re: Who is going to be on Einstein?
 

This is my idea of a realistic winning alliance for Einstein :)

Alliance Captain- Strong autonomous, fast and strong drive train, pyramid and full court shooter, and ten point climb. This teams strategy would be to shoot auto disc and then either full court shoot or pyramid shoot, depending if the opposing alliance has a full court shooter, then ten point climb.

First Pick- Strong autonomous, extremely strong and maneuverable drive train, ten point climb, and pyramid shooter. This teams strategy would be to shoot auto disc and then block other teams shooters, either full court or pyramid. Or if there is no team worth defending then either protect their own shooter or score points their selves. Then at end climb ten points.

Second Pick- Floor pickup, 7+ disc autonomous, reliable drive train, professional construction, 30 pt climb with 20 pt dump. This teams strategy would be to shoot 7 or more auto disc, make one or two feeder station trips-optional- and then climb and dump.

Re: Who is going to be on Einstein?
 

If a championship alliance finds a 2nd pick that can do a 7-disc autonomous...they should automatically win.

Re: Who is going to be on Einstein?
 

Someone needs to tell him that this isn't the April fools day thread ;)

Re: Who is going to be on Einstein?
 

Continuing along this line of reasoning ...
--> 75% chance that 1114 and 2056 will play against each other on Einstein.
:]

Re: Who is going to be on Einstein?
 

I think an alliance like 148-2056-2789 could easily be seen on Einstein. Well, assuming 148 can get their 30 point climb.

Re: Who is going to be on Einstein?
 

I doubt you see 2789 fall to the 16th pick. 2789 will either be a 1st pick for an alliance or a 2nd pick by a 5-8 alliance. If they make back around to 1-3, those alliances deserve to lose to 2789's defense.

Re: Who is going to be on Einstein?
 

Thank you very much for the respect given to my drive team. It's very hard to earn respect as a defensive team when everyone wants points, points, points, and we don't have the people or the resources to pull off the amazing robots and mechanisms that other teams can, so we have to rely on understanding the game, and building a mini-tank that can take and dish out punishment. Being able to understand the rules and knowing that the dynamics of elimination matches are very different from quals matches has been key to our success this year. We know that we won't be in a picking slot during alliance selections, but we also know the drive trains, wheels, drive patterns, preferred feeder slots and preferred shooting spots for every team at our regionals...and that knowledge has been much more valuable to us this year than any scouting data we've ever recorded.

I guess now is as good a time to say it as any...

This will be our first trip to championship in our team's five year history, and before this week we had planned on going as starry-eyed noobs just there to enjoy the ride...but then our good friends and alliance partners for two finals runs this year, team 4063, hooked us up with their spare frisbee shooter. Needless to say, we plan on showing up to champs with our mad defense and at least a 12 point autonomous... ;)

Re: Who is going to be on Einstein?
 

4 words:

within the bumper zone

?

Re: Who is going to be on Einstein?
 

Winning Einstein alliance: 254+1114, and one more robot with a center-line auto and a strong-ish drive train. 254 does a 7 disk auto, 1114 does a 3 disk auto, and the third robot hits the center-line. 3rd robot drives down to the feeder station, does not have to shoot full court, but does start unloading disks towards their end of the field for 254 to pick up. 1114 is running to and from the feeder station shooting disks. 254 is shooting from the front of the court. The third robot, once being blocked, pushes its way out of the feeder station to start playing some defense. In the last 30 seconds, 1114 climbs and dumps for 50, 254 does a cycle or two and then hangs, and the 3rd alliance member either defends or runs one cycle, than hangs for 10.

*Note, all named teams could easily be switched out for one similar to it. These names were just used for a more visual reference.

Re: Who is going to be on Einstein?
 

I like this. Shoot 20ish disks for 254 to pick up, then go play defense/climb.

Re: Who is going to be on Einstein?
 

Hey...why only 12 :-)

Re: Who is going to be on Einstein?
 

Baby steps...the idea of my robot putting a lot of points on the board just seems so foreign to me when there are so many other robots on the field that it would be fun to ram into lol

Re: Who is going to be on Einstein?
 

I think this the type of year where the traditional "2 offense + 1 defense bot" elimination alliance strategy won't get you to Einstein. There are just too many ways to score points. Taking any time to stop the other team rather than scoring yourself will put you in a hole (unless you can hit 13 in auto and climb for 30 in under 15 seconds).

Then again, I thought the same thing in 2007 and that didn't go exactly as I thought it would.

Re: Who is going to be on Einstein?
 

I defiantly believe 118, 1114, and 1986 all have winning robots if luck falls their way. 1986 makes me proud to be from Missouri :) lol

Re: Who is going to be on Einstein?
 

I suppose, if you're assuming that there is a 100% chance both of them win their divisions. I don't think that's even close to reality. Look at 2011, 2007, or 2006 for examples.

Re: Who is going to be on Einstein?
 

I can count the amount of robots who have demonstrated a center line auto that wouldn't conflict with 254's starting position on one hand. And you expect one to be available in the 2nd round of alliance selection?

Re: Who is going to be on Einstein?
 

A pair of short bots with full court capability and that have practiced enough that they can line up in a timely fashion paired with any pickup bot. It remains to be seen whether there is enough depth for this, and we won't know until the divisions are released.

Any two of 118, 610, 2826 could score every disc in the match.

Re: Who is going to be on Einstein?
 

On second though, that is a bit greedy. :o

A three disk auto at the minimum.

Re: Who is going to be on Einstein?
 

A FCS could position the stick in the bumper zone making it highly unlikely that there would be a tech foul

Re: Who is going to be on Einstein?
 

that epic airplane from 2011 right before the concert that flew over the backdrop...nothing will compare.

Re: Who is going to be on Einstein?
 

Could someone tell me exactly what Einstein is?

Re: Who is going to be on Einstein?
 

Re: Who is going to be on Einstein?
 

I beg to differ. Last year someone got one from the upper deck straight out from Einstein and it almost made it to Archimedes. It went over 150 yards.

Re: Who is going to be on Einstein?
 

Thanks!

Re: Who is going to be on Einstein?
 

And if coupled with a FCS that puts disks in the goals or on the floor in front of them because their shot(s) deflected, it will be so much the more valuable. It might even be possible for a non-FCS shooter to pass from the feed station to the floor pickup without attracting too much defensive response. Depending on just how reliable the pickup is, it might even be hard to stop two feeders for it, especially if one of them can get full court goals when undefended. Further if floor pickup can be done on the opponents' misses, the disks transferred to the other end, and you begin to see why 2056 is so special. It's hard (impossible?) to put too many disks in their auto zone.

Re: Who is going to be on Einstein?
 

Interesting to see that the alliance that ultimately won this year was comprised of three cyclers, who found a way to reduce the traffic so they could put up huge tele-op scores.

Re: Who is going to be on Einstein?
 

1477 had a very good ground pick up that they used a lot, if they didn't have that they would not have won. I'm incredibly surprised no 50 point climb and dump bots made it to finals.