Does M.I.T./Yale Success = FIRST Dean's List Finalist/Winner?
 

My belief in the _value_ to students who earn FIRST Dean's List Finalist awards relating to _desirability_ to be _accepted_ into M.I.T. or Yale or "prestigious" colleges/universities has been shaken.

When you read the representations made by FIRST in this document:

http://www.usfirst.org/sites/default...teria_2012.pdf

...and FIRST states, "Since its introduction in 2010, the FIRST Dean’s List Award has attracted the attention of prestigious colleges and universities who desire to recruit FIRST Dean’s List students" and the other things they say in the document in relation to colleges/universities [i.e. M.I.T./Yale], AND then you couple the representations made on the stage at the 2012 Championship Dean's List ceremony by Dean Kamen and folks from M.I.T. and Yale:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature..._Wu_E#t=88 1s

...AND then there's NO SUCCESS in getting into M.I.T. or Yale (despite satisfying ALL the required academic metrics and subjectives) ... I've come to the conclusion that the value "pitch" of Dean's List to these "elite" college applications MAY BE _overstated_ and _over-sold_.


To the approximately 350 Dean's List Finalists out there (2010, 2011, 2012)... PLEASE help restore my confidence in FIRST and this award by posting your experiences/outcomes with M.I.T. and/or Yale... please provide _evidence_ to support the representations made by FIRST and Dean Kamen (in the video).

Maybe my family's experience is an outlier?! I'm hoping that's the case...

Hopefully, this thread can accumulate enough results/data to come to a conclusion on the efficacy of the award relating to "elite" college entry. I've talked to FIRST folks (intimately involved with Dean's List) directly on this and they have NO NUMBERS to share or measure on the success of Dean's List Finalists/Winners getting into these schools?!

Re: Does M.I.T./Yale Success = FIRST Dean's List Finalist/Winner?
 

This thread could quickly become a long one, as the college admissions process is essentially a black box, with no rhyme or reason (well, aside from a few basic parameters). When the acceptance rate at these schools hovers at or below 10%, there is no doubt that hundreds, neigh, thousands, of completely qualified and spectacular applicants are denied admission.

Expecting Dean's List Finalist (or Winner) status to guarantee admission to two particular schools seems far fetched.

I've seen students on our team do remarkably well in college acceptances this year (including one Dean's List Finalist), and a few months ago as I was helping some of them revise and fine-tune essays and short answers for college apps, I liked to think that their wealth of experiences in FIRST meant something to these universities. As I was writing Dean's List Nominations for this year's Juniors, I had the same thing in mind, but more importantly, I wanted them to have a chance at being recognized for their success and achievements for their own merit. To some schools I'm sure it does carry heavy weight; based on the statements in that video, I'm sure of it. But no single activity, award, or accomplishment (starting a charity, having a perfect GPA, high SAT, tough family story, athletics, Dean's List) is a guarantee of acceptance anywhere.

Expecting this thread to conjure up useful, measurable data is a difficult proposition - there is no way that those 350 students had similar applications outside of their Dean's List status, nor did they apply to the same schools. We can't really "compare" students in that way; only university admissions folks have the ability to do that :)

I wish your student the best of luck and I'm sure he or she will be able to make the most of the offers he or she received and end up at a great place.

Re: Does M.I.T./Yale Success = FIRST Dean's List Finalist/Winner?
 

David... I never used the word "guarantee" nor did intimate it. I was careful to point directly to the FIRST document and the video from the FIRST Dean's List ceremony at Championship.

Dean Kamen (watch the video) made representations about these colleges and their _desirability_ of these students to them as applicants. My experience is the representations aren't true.

I could be completely wrong on this... and I'm _simply_ looking for feedback from those who _actually_ applied to M.I.T. and Yale and what their outcome was given the representations FIRST makes about their _desirability_.

There's NOTHING wrong with questioning representations and trying to square those representations with some data... ;-)

WHY write/say the words IF the efficacy IS NOT there?!

--Michael

Re: Does M.I.T./Yale Success = FIRST Dean's List Finalist/Winner?
 

Understood; might have read too far into your original post. I think the only way that FIRST would have data on this is if

1) They required all Dean's List recipients to report their college acceptance results (which they currently don't)
2) Colleges reported their acceptance or denial of Dean's List students back to FIRST (which I think might be considered a violation of privacy?)

I guess I just don't think we're going to get cold, hard, data here.

Honestly the way things are going...I don't think the university model is going to look the same even a decade from now. It's just too crazy these days.

Re: Does M.I.T./Yale Success = FIRST Dean's List Finalist/Winner?
 

Bloom where you are planted.

Go Boilers.
Purdue, BSNE, 1984

Are those underscores meant to be quotes?

Efficacy: "The ability to produce a desired or intended result."
If Yale or MIT is your result, PowerBall is up to $50 million this weekend. :)

While a Yale or MIT degree may confer a eye widening response at a cocktail party, it is only the base upon which an individual builds their professional experience and resume.

Trust the Universe.

Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
The courage to change the things I can,
And wisdom to know the difference.

Re: Does M.I.T./Yale Success = FIRST Dean's List Finalist/Winner?
 

Alex Carrillo of 694 is a Dean's List finalist from 2011, from NY and is currently attending Yale University. Is that the only reason he got into his school of choice? Probably not, but it certainly didn't hurt.

I totally understand that you're feeling burned about rejections; I'm the only team captain from our team to not get into MIT, and I'm still a little bitter, too. The truth is that not everyone can go to an Ivy League school, but anyone can find success in life even if they don't.

Make the most of whatever college education you get - at the Cooper Union I get the opportunity to mentor my old team and be a part of a smaller, closer-knit community while still getting a great engineering education.

Best of luck!

Re: Does M.I.T./Yale Success = FIRST Dean's List Finalist/Winner?
 

We've sent students to both Yale and MIT.

Our 1 Dean's list finalist currently attends Syracuse.

I see no correlation from the data I have.

(For the sake of disclosure my fiance works at Yale.)

Re: Does M.I.T./Yale Success = FIRST Dean's List Finalist/Winner?
 

The thing that every student needs to understand about admission to any elite school is that schools get a great many more qualified applicants than they have spots open. Most people tend to think that admissions is a ranking system, and that higher SAT/ACT scores, higher grades, more AP classes necessarily equates to greater likelihood of admission. In fact the situation is closer to using test scores and grades to set a floor. Applicants above the floor get considered. After that, the process becomes far more opaque, and many other factors come into play. There is no magic formula to insure admission to M.I.T., Yale and the like. I have had kids with perfect test scores and all As not get in to M.I.T. and kids with lower scores get in. Elite schools spend a lot of effort looking for ways in which particular applicants will enhance the school. Lots of factors play a roll. For anyone interested in a little window into the last few decisions, I recommend the book Alma Mater by P.F. Kluge. It is a book about a year spent as an instructor at Kenyon College, and one section talks about the author observing the admissions process and in particular the way in which the last few decisions get made.

None of our Dean's list finalists have gone to MIT or Yale but they have gone to Carnegie Mellon, Ohio State and Virginia Tech. (I think one of them applied to M.I.T. and was deferred, the other two did not apply. I believe our finalist this year is considering M.I.T., but we'll have to see about that.) The program has not been around long enough for there to be any conclusive data about the benefit for college admissions.

Re: Does M.I.T./Yale Success = FIRST Dean's List Finalist/Winner?
 

Everything mathking said was on point. Even kids who win international awards, like Dean's List or even Siemens or Intel don't get into Yale or MIT. Sure, there may be factors of the applicant that qualified the person for Dean's List that admissions groups thought were admirable, but that can't and should not automatically qualify one for a position at an elite university. The admit officers have the job of sorting through tens of thousands of apps for like 1000ish spots, and after you get past qualifications (certain academic achievement levels, which includes test performance) you look at how well that applicant will fit in the school, take advantage of the school's unique resources, interact with others, etc.

I think what the FIRST video meant to convey (because admission to these universities is so dependent on more than just titles) is that DL winners, when later speaking with admissions officers, have the eye-catching qualities of a Siemens winner or an Intel winner and that these kids are more heavily considered for these scarce positions.

I personally never won Dean's List, but I was nominated by my team, and that's something I indicated on my apps. I also had a lot more than (though, admittedly a lot of) FIRST-related activity on my app with other activities that I was involved in, I guess. And for me, admission success to top colleges was evident. But, I don't think one can directly correlate anything specific on my app to admission. Dean's List winners included. However, imho, Dean's Listers will be successful wherever they go, so why even worry?

Re: Does M.I.T./Yale Success = FIRST Dean's List Finalist/Winner?
 

Hello

I'm currently a Yale sophomore and just wanted to throw in my 2cents. The year I graduated, deans list was just starting, but even so, I know there were at least 3 MIT admits, an I know of at least one deans list winner who chose to go there that year. This year, there are several deans list winners also admitted to Yale/MIT. They may or may not choose to come to these schools, but I think that the impression that they aren't getting in is a false one.

Yale has a pretty awesome community of First alumni. One of my friends (Alex from 694) and I recently attended Boston regional and Hartford respectively. Furthermore, Marina, a deans list finalist from this year was also accepted. We've had quite a few alumni getogethers with quite a good turnout despite not having deans list winners there. Yale is well aware of FIRST and how awesome it is, and we have strong ties to the program.

MIT/Yale admissions are inherently a little arbitrary because of the fact that there are so many qualifie students out there, and a Yale isn't that big! The admissions rate keeps going down, and there are no guarantees. Also, the deans list winners who get in here, also get into other schools they want to go to, so only a few of the successful applicants actually end up here.

There's also something to be said about the students who win the deans list awards. The deans list isn't a purely academic scholarship. Mentors write essays which are judged along side grades and other metrics to determine winners. Not all deans list finalists would fit in here at Yale, and try ultimately scholar schools at which they excel and enjoy the culture.

I hope that clarifies things a little bit, and good luck to all of the applicants in making your decisions!

Chinmay

Re: Does M.I.T./Yale Success = FIRST Dean's List Finalist/Winner?
 

I hate to say it, but a single data point (or even a couple) isn't enough to support the claims made by the OP. Being part of a FIRST team helps students get into engineering schools, but that doesn't mean every student from every team is accepted to an engineering school! Likewise, being a Dean's List Finalist or Winner doesn't mean you'll be accepted into any program you want... it's a single aspect of your application.

Colleges these days aren't just looking at grades, test scores, and prestigious awards. They're looking at the whole picture. Can the admissions group see that student integrating well into the community? Are the student's activities, extra curriculars, and interests one-sided, or are they well rounded? Do they think the student will close themselves up in their room and not interact, or do they see the student going out into the school to make a positive difference?

This is all on the "touchy-feely" side of things, something engineers hate - simply put, it's not quantifiable. You can't sit down and create a list of requirements that will guarantee entry, and quite frankly acceptance or rejection of any particular student may hinge on what the admissions board had for breakfast that morning (hopefully not, but you see my point).

Dean's List DOES look good on college applications. It gives the students a talking point if they interview at a college, and gives them a way to lead into FIRST and everything they've done with the program. But that's not why we should be nominating students.

Don't nominate a student because you want them to get into college X. Nominate them because you truly believe they have made a significant impact on your team and on the FIRST community. Nominate them because you want to recognize them for what they've done. Nominate them because you know the nomination alone will create an impact with them that goes beyond college applications. Nominate them because they are outstanding examples of what FIRST is striving to achieve. College applications are just a bonus.

Re: Does M.I.T./Yale Success = FIRST Dean's List Finalist/Winner?
 

They say write what you know, so here goes:

I went to The Cooper Union as the class of 2009, well before the Dean's List. That year Cooper Union was considered one of the most selective university in the country. Yet I was rejected from another college that was less selective, by about a factor 2. Even now Cooper is still more selective than Yale or MIT.

Why would less-selective colleges reject someone that is accepted at a more-selective college? Maybe they're trying to balance demographics, backgrounds, majors, genders, or mystery quality 63b.

An odd trend that I noticed that HS valedictorians frequently drop out of Cooper, usually after a pretty bad melt down. On the other hand, students without straight-A HS GPAs (or not even close, like me) tend to thrive. Why do you think that happens?

My point is that some (maybe many) colleges value non-quantifiable traits in their applicants. Just because an applicant has a certain GPA, extra-curricular activities, or awards, does not mean that they will fit well within a particular institution. Admissions officers have to understand what type of students will do well and contribute to their university or college and select those that have the best chance at doing so. This is why the 'black magic' of admissions happens. There's no saying that one student is better than another by looking at the colleges they got into, they're just different.

Reference: http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandre...ce-rate/spp+50

Re: Does M.I.T./Yale Success = FIRST Dean's List Finalist/Winner?
 

Nothing GUARANTEES acceptance into a college. I didn't apply to Yale or MIT(or any ivies for that matter) because my academics,despite being excellent,probably aren't at that level...I did get into WPI, which I think might have been out of my reach, so I do honestly think FIRST in general helped me with that...same goes for Northeastern

Re: Does M.I.T./Yale Success = FIRST Dean's List Finalist/Winner?
 

Jake... THANKS for the data on Alex! --Michael

Re: Does M.I.T./Yale Success = FIRST Dean's List Finalist/Winner?
 

Peter... THANKS for the data! --Michael

Re: Does M.I.T./Yale Success = FIRST Dean's List Finalist/Winner?
 

Greg... THANKS for the data!

I AGREE with you that program has not been around long enough to gauge results... so WHY does FIRST make representations like the ones contained in the document and video I pointed to in the original post?

Re: Does M.I.T./Yale Success = FIRST Dean's List Finalist/Winner?
 

I don't see any reason to think that the representations are inaccurate? The admissions folks say they look highly upon Dean's List kids, and from this thread it appears that they have admitted some of them.

Re: Does M.I.T./Yale Success = FIRST Dean's List Finalist/Winner?
 

But I think one of the issues is that it seems as though much of the data here lacks background-for all we know some of theses students could be some that were EXTREMELY qualified and would have gotten in anyway, even without DL.

My best guess is like everything, DL helps extremely in admissions, but everything else(ie. grades, class ranking) still has an impact.

Re: Does M.I.T./Yale Success = FIRST Dean's List Finalist/Winner?
 

I have some experience in helping both Dean's List Finalist winners, and MIT admitted students, and would offer you these thoughts. Your status as a FIRST Dean's List Finalist did indeed help your admission chances. Perhaps it helped you move to no. 5000 on the list of applicants instead of no. 8000. You must realize that for each and every one of the thousands of applicants, there is a portfolio consisting of many, many nuggets of information and judgements about that applicant. ACT scores, SAT scores, grades, awards, extracurriculars, honors, projects, activities are all pebbles in your basket, but there are many pebbles, and they are all considered and weighed differently and subjectively by the multiple admissions officers who studied your application. Your Dean's List pebble was a large one in your basket there is no doubt, but it is only one pebble and cannot tip the scale on its own among the thousands of other baskets that you were weighed against. You say that you understood that a Dean's List Award was no guarantee, but it might be that deep down you were sort of hoping that it was.

When I have talked with admissions officers at MIT they express how difficult and painful it is to make their final selections from among so many worthy applicants. There are simply more applicants that should be admitted than they have slots for. The admission rate at such institutions is around 10%, and each and every applicant feels they have a good chance of being admitted, or they would not spend the considerable time, effort, and money it takes to apply. But in the end the officers must make their final selections based on the very subtle and subjective impressions they have from the fringes of your application. Those final impressions are not based much on hard data such as grades and scores and awards, but from the overall impression they get from your application and interview as a whole. At MIT they are always looking to build a class full of individuals who they judge are likely to achieve something great. They are looking for "spikes", not just a collection of high SAT scores or awards. How they judge those "spikes" is somewhat of a mystery, but it is not based much on data. As has already been stated in this thread, your scores, grades, and awards data will determines if you make the first 50% cut, which you probably did, but after that it becomes much more subjective.

Dean and FIRST are not misleading us when they claim that a Dean's List Finalist award in your portfolio will improve your chances of attending an elite university. It will. But you must keep in perspective the daunting odds you face when you apply to a Yale or an MIT. The numbers are so great that there will always be somewhat of a lottery nature to it. Be proud of your Dean's List status, and use it to help yourself get into another fine university.

Re: Does M.I.T./Yale Success = FIRST Dean's List Finalist/Winner?
 

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to jspatz1 again.

Re: Does M.I.T./Yale Success = FIRST Dean's List Finalist/Winner?
 

To get overly lawyer-ese like so many of us do with rules...
This statement does NOT say that the students get in. Simply that the Award itself has attracted the attention of the colleges. Which in all reality probably means Dean has spoken with many of the prestigious colleges and they think the award is a great idea. Follow that up with this statement:
And none of this is false. MIT, Yale, WPI and hosts more Admissions heads have come to speak at FIRST events, and are probably very interested in these students.

However, like so many say... do the math. Only TEN students are selected at the Championship level each year. There have only been FOUR years of the award... and I believe these last two years have only been Juniors (though many applied the "Juniors" concept early on). Thus only THREE classes of students (30 Championship level) even know if they have been admitted to schools. With only 30 kids... ~18,000 apply to MIT and less than 10% get in. Yale admits ~2,000 out of 30,000 applicants. So its really really tough to get in. And there are NO claims in any of the research or any of the speeches that this award guarantees admission.

And on another note, from seeing the students selected that I know... many have been team leaders, captains, co-captains, chairmans presenters, etc. BUT the leaders in the FIRST community may not be interested in going to Yale or MIT, or may not be exactly what those schools are looking for (I personally don't know any DL students with a 4.0+). Some are, but many aren't. Many students I know of choose schools like Clarkson, WPI, RPI, RIT, Carnegie Mellon, UMichigan, UIllinois, Harvey Mudd etc. All of these schools in my mind are VERY prestigious for excellent engineering programs, and don't have the same character as MIT or Yale. I have nothing against those schools, but when I chose to apply to schools, I did plenty of research on their programs, and even attended an MIT info session, and didn't end up even applying to either one as one of the 10 schools I applied to.

I don't think any single award can guarantee admission to any school (heck I saw a girl on my high school team get the full WPI scholarship at Champs way back in the day, but then not get admitted to the school!), as there are a whole host of factors that go into admissions.

I think FIRST wants to put a marketing spin on this awesome award, and I think this is the start to their spin. Like Dean has said I am AMAZED that it took them this long to come up with a student award... but I am excited that they have created something that will recognize student leaders and students that are likely to help grow the FIRST program... as we have seen (ok maybe this is a tad self serving) Alumni are one of THE best ways to grow the FIRST program, and one of THE best ways to promote great mentoring in the program (Take another quick aside - over 9 teams at the CT regional last year had Clarkson Alumni leading them or in significant mentorship roles!!).

Anyways, enough tangents. I'd love to see some detailed stats collected (like David suggested) on where all these Deans List students went & maybe even where they applied. I think there is a sizable FB group that maybe some data could be pulled from... and/or maybe FIRST has a way of collecting this info.

Re: Does M.I.T./Yale Success = FIRST Dean's List Finalist/Winner?
 

Jeff... "misleading" is a negatively-loaded word that I HAVE NOT used.

Representations are made in writing and verbally at the Champs ceremony, WHERE'S the substantial evidence to support those representations?

IF you listen to the video carefully, NOBODY say's Dean's List will only "improve your chances of attending", there's NO DISCLAIMERS or warnings... here's a direct Dean Kamen quote right after M.I.T. and Yale folks finished speaking:

"As I said, the colleges get-it, they want to get YOU (pointing to the entire D/L audience)..."

That's _powerful_ stuff for a 17 year old and his parents to hear for the first time. The credibility factor was _VERY_ high, now not so much...

My OP premise is that my experience is that this award MAY BE overstated and over-sold as it relates to getting into M.I.T. and Yale. Though, data (results) might prove me wrong...

--Michael

BTW... you guys have an AWESOME robot this year... hoping to see you on Einstein!! ;-)

Re: Does M.I.T./Yale Success = FIRST Dean's List Finalist/Winner?
 

Michael,

A year ago this subject was thoroughly flogged here on Chief Delphi and I was one of the floggers. The thread is somewhere out there but I'll summarize my thoughts via bullet points.

1) The original DL intent seemed to be to identify students that had a serious commitment to the mission and vision of FIRST and had exhibited the leadership skills and passion to become future leaders and champions of the FIRST mission.

2) The intent of the DL was redefined to the current definition a year or so later. It seemed to be more of a marketing ploy to get the public to value FIRST by having the public perceive that FIRST students are recruited by colleges much like colleges recruits athletes.

3) There are a lot of variables in the admissions process and some schools are very aggressive in soliciting large numbers of applications and have an extremely low acceptance rate. It is true that colleges and employers value FIRST alumni. But how does universities/employers differentiate between outstanding team members and low contributing team members. Answer: Highly qualified letters of recommendation from mentors/employers/teachers trump DL and about everything else.

4) Keeping the DL as a measurement of the students leadership skills and commitment to cultural change is what I vote for, it benefits the students best in the long term, benefits FIRST best in the long term, even though it doesn't fit FIRST's short term marketing effort.

5) Sweeping away consideration of seniors as DL candidates is a tragedy for many reasons including the fact that you can write a nomination based on only just over 2 years of student performance.

Here is my bottom line:

As far as linking the DL and college admission process - nope' I don't buy it.

The things a student has to do to earn the Dean's List is exactly the kind of thing employers like to hear. The award needs to be on the students resume and explained as a commitment to excellence.

Receiving a Dean's List Award is an honor, but you will have to learn how to use it to your own advantage as you develop your personal brand and career.

edit: the best way to get into the school of your choice it to go to a good school that give you an opportunity to blossom and flourish. demonstrate excellence and getting into the next school will be fantastically easier.

Re: Does M.I.T./Yale Success = FIRST Dean's List Finalist/Winner?
 

Don't confound "data" and "results". Reasonable "substantial evidence" here can just as easily--in fact, more accurately--be from Dean talking to admissions officers. The stories he and the other speakers tell are no doubt completely accurate and therefore entirely credible.

The real inaccuracy is in linking those stories with the result of getting into a specific school. Far from a disclaimer, the program isn't old enough to statistically substantiate claims like "improve your chances of attending"--it's good they avoid it. Even if you imposed an inaccurate quantitative view, for instance, that MIT "bumps" every winner 1000 spots, we'd need a much larger sample size to see the correlation from selection reports. What Dean's doing is marketing the award and FIRST based on his good faith conversations with many, many university officials. Over advertising? Maybe. Misrepresenting? No.

Re: Does M.I.T./Yale Success = FIRST Dean's List Finalist/Winner?
 

I don't think linking Deans List and college admissions is really a good idea. It's the spirit of the award and all - It just doesn't feel right for it to be a 'bargaining chip' on the same level as SAT scores. It almost degrades the accomplishment.

For what it's worth, we have had no deans list winners but still have kids who go on to Cornell, Northwestern, Johns Hopkins, U Chicago, etc... No Yale of MIT though, not that it really matters. For reference, we are a public school in upstate New York.

If the FIRST team is doing it's job and building people to be as best as they can, and students manage to convey that in their application, colleges should get the idea and the hidden benefits of being on a team will help their chances of acceptance.

Re: Does M.I.T./Yale Success = FIRST Dean's List Finalist/Winner?
 

WOW. I'm getting pinged directly by Dean's List Finalist students and parents who chose not to reveal their info here on CD.

GOOD AMOUNT of disappointment, and feelings about the FIRST representations that track exactly with mine. It's eye-opening.

To make it easier, if anyone else wants to communicate with me directly on this matter here's my contact info:

Michael Blake
michaelblake@insurancelabs.com
210-858-8575

Re: Does M.I.T./Yale Success = FIRST Dean's List Finalist/Winner?
 

What part of Dean's quote isn't credible? Have we seen a Dean's List Finalist or winner get rejected from every college? Or have we seen some that maybe haven't gotten into their top choice, but have still gotten into good schools?

Again, you can't base any assessment of credibility against a single instance of results, especially when the admissions process is so complex. Winning Deal's list is a single feather in your cap, and you need many of them to get into a good school.

When I was applying to colleges, I had a great resume. Awesome SAT and ACT scores, practically a 4.0 (a single B one year in high school), a National Merit Finalist, Eagle Scout, leadership in the marching band, chess club, and math club, etc. It was a great resume. But I didn't get into my top school. I got in every where else though, just not my top school. Just because I didn't get into my top school doesn't mean there was something wrong. After all, aren't schools supposed to be interested in Eagle Scouts? Aren't they supposed to be interested in National Merit Finalists?

Dean and FIRST aren't misrepresenting or over stating anything. Schools are interested in Dean's List Finalists and Winners. Being on FIRST's Dean's List tells schools a lot about the individual applying. But it doesn't say everything, and even for a Dean's List Winner the rest of the application has to be gold in order to get you into the best of the best colleges.

Re: Does M.I.T./Yale Success = FIRST Dean's List Finalist/Winner?
 

And just to repeat:

The things a student has to do to earn the Dean's List is exactly the kind of thing employers like to hear. The award needs to be on the students resume and explained as a commitment to excellence.

Receiving a Dean's List Award is an honor, but you will have to learn how to use it to your own advantage as you develop your personal brand and career.

Re: Does M.I.T./Yale Success = FIRST Dean's List Finalist/Winner?
 

Jon..."isn't credible" is a negatively-loaded term I'm not using and I'm not going there. My experience is what he said DID NOT come true for my son.

In the quote I cited, Dean was _clearly_ talking about M.I.T. and Yale whose folks had just left the podium... he WAS NOT referring to "every college".

--Michael

Re: Does M.I.T./Yale Success = FIRST Dean's List Finalist/Winner?
 

So, I'm a FIRST alum currently attending MIT. I went through the whole admissions process and have read numerous blogs from admissions officers on how the process works. It's still somewhat vague, and I know that so many more people deserve to get in, and I feel incredibly blessed to be able to study here. But this is what I have gathered.

First, you need to have good grades and decent test scores, with classes like physics and calculus on your transcript. If you don't have those, although not impossible, it will be less likely that you thrive here.

Second, I think the admission office really wants to see that you have a personality, a passion, a quirk, or something that makes you different. They want to build a class of students who will be able to work together to solve the challenges set before them, and ultimately the challenges that the world faces. (Side note: this is what diversity truly means, bringing together different people with different mentalities and background's for this purpose. It does not mean various races, genders, sexuailties, etc.) Much of this comes from reading your essays, letters of rec, and interviewers essays. A list of achievements and awards can help show your passions, but more important is that you explain why these achievements are important to you.

Finally, although the above is a rough guideline, there is no perfect formula for college admission, anywhere. Period. And trying to formalize it just gets harder as the admission rate goes down. The above is somewhat of the thinking that goes into MIT's admissions, but it's different for every school. Because there is no formula, it is nearly impossible to quantify how the Dean's List (or anything else for that matter) affects your chances of acceptance.

tl;dr: While the Dean's list is a phenomenal achievement, it is by no means a guarantee to being accepted to any school, because there are no such guarantees.

Note: I did not win a Dean's List award.

Re: Does M.I.T./Yale Success = FIRST Dean's List Finalist/Winner?
 

I'm not sure what students/parents expect here. Dean's List is a great award, but in the end it is a tiny facet in the student's application. The greater reward is how the student will use it on a resume once they try to earn a job, and heck, they get a large scholarship out of it. The scholarship is the greater reward, in my opinion. I don't think FIRST is claiming anything about the award that isn't true.

As Grim Tuesday pointed out, plenty of students who don't have a Dean's List award go to impressive universities. 3929 has students who have either been accepted to or are currently attending UPenn, Yale, Columbia, CalTech, etc... For what it's worth, we are also a public school. However, these students are all distinguished scholars in their school, athletes, National Merit Scholars, and leaders on our team as well as many other clubs/organizations.

I don't think FIRST has to correct what they say about their award, students should know that it is not a "golden ticket" or something like that, and I bet most of them do. For all we know, the students did not "sell" their experiences in FIRST well enough in the application. There are also many times where some students discuss FIRST TOO much in applications. It can be so arbitrary. (source: Masterman School and friends/family who work at or attended Cornell, MIT, & Harvard)

Random examples: On 11 a few years back we had a student who was waitlisted by RPI, but was accepted by MIT. Another friend of mine was accepted to Columbia but waitlisted by MIT. 3929's captain was accepted by CalTech and Wharton at UPenn but waitlisted by MIT. Admissions is too random to correlate to small things like Dean's List, I think.

Re: Does M.I.T./Yale Success = FIRST Dean's List Finalist/Winner?
 

Hey Akash! ;-)

I AGREE, now, that "Admissions is too random to correlate to... Dean's List..."

THEN WHY does FIRST do that?!

I have to confess I've left out _so much/many_ proactive things that were done regarding FIRST/M.I.T./Yale _AFTER_ my son won Dean's List Finalist... time/effort/interactions/loads-of-$$$. And it feels a bit like Charlie Brown, Lucy, and the football... ;-)

I'm just trying to get a feel for the success of other Dean's List Finalists in getting into M.I.T. and Yale, the ones that meet the known criteria _PLUS_ have D/L in their quiver... it's THAT simple.

So far, the results on CD and the results I've received privately aren't looking encouraging compared to what's been sold over the last two years.

We saw the FIRST document I point to in the OP _AFTER_ my son won D/L. And then, of course, we were blown-away by what we heard at the 2012 Championship ceremony.

--Michael

Re: Does M.I.T./Yale Success = FIRST Dean's List Finalist/Winner?
 

I received the Dean's List finalist award my senior year, so it was already past the point where it would have helped me get into schools. However, I do not believe that it would have changed the status of my admissions even if I had gotten it a year earlier. The general sense I have gotten from anyone in admissions that I have talked to is that something like Dean's List can be a nice bonus, but is not the type of thing to boost a student who wouldn't get into an elite school without it to getting into an elite program.

I would really like to see the award have more impacts on internships/co-ops/jobs. So far I've gotten nothing out of it other than a nice honor and a backpack full of goodies. Not once has a potential employer seemed to care when it get's mentioned.

Re: Does M.I.T./Yale Success = FIRST Dean's List Finalist/Winner?
 

I think that's more a function of it being new, and many employers not yet being familiar with it. When I interviewed for my first internship (which I got), my interviewer was definitely interested in both the technical and leadership sides of what I'd done in FIRST. That on its own certainly wasn't the deciding factor in getting hired (nothing replaces coding on a whiteboard!), but it was a neat thing to be able to talk about.

Re: Does M.I.T./Yale Success = FIRST Dean's List Finalist/Winner?
 

Yale and MIT have admission rates of 7.7% and 9.7% respectively. Are DL winners/finalists achieving those rates, or higher, of those who apply to these schools?

Re: Does M.I.T./Yale Success = FIRST Dean's List Finalist/Winner?
 

I went through college admission process last year, and it is truly a crapshoot.

While I wasn't a Dean's List Finalist, I can relate to the feeling of realizing that nothing correlates perfectly with admission success that you seem to be having. For me, it was academic success. And instead of Dean Kamen telling me how important it was at an event last year, it was (almost literally) every authority figure in my life for as long as I can remember. Even though I began to realize this before I applied to colleges, it was still disappointing when the realization was confirmed by admissions results.

Based on my observations of my peers' admissions success, the only thing that comes close to a "magic bullet" in college admissions is independent research.

In the end, where you go for undergrad (especially if you plan on going to graduate school) doesn't matter as much as the media makes it out. What you do while there is what makes the difference.

Oh, and if you want understandable, quantifiable college admissions, apply to Cal Poly.

Re: Does M.I.T./Yale Success = FIRST Dean's List Finalist/Winner?
 

Akash brought up a good point—the Dean's List isn't the only factor in the admission process. As far as I know, the only required information about the student's academic success is the cumulative GPA. That means Dean's List winners could potentially be students with low SAT/ACT scores, few other extracurricular activities, bad college admission essays, etc. Even the cumulative GPA is not incredibly informative if given on a 4.0 scale; it provides no indication of the strength of a student's schedule and whether or not that have taken challenging courses that would warrant entrance into a prestigious school. I've also noticed that there are FIRSTers who only do FIRST in high school. That's fine, but admissions people tend to like a bit of diversity in those activities.

Criteria for the Dean's List (courtesy of the manual) includes:

• demonstrated leadership and commitment to the ideals of FIRST;
• interest in and passion for a long term commitment to FIRST and its ideals;
• overall individual contribution to their team;
• technical expertise and passion;
• entrepreneurship and creativity;
• ability to motivate and lead fellow team members; and
• effectiveness at increasing awareness of FIRST in their school and community

This indicates success in FIRST and a passion for STEM, not academic excellence and ability to succeed at a highly-ranked college or university.

Re: Does M.I.T./Yale Success = FIRST Dean's List Finalist/Winner?
 

Alexa... you may be right about a lot or even the majority of FIRST Dean's list Finalists and their academic (objective measurements) and their extracurriculars / recommendations / essays (subjective measurements) NOT being good enough for M.I.T. and Yale despite having Dean's List Finalist in their quiver.

But, in my son's case, he applied with a 99.6 GPA, 13 AP-level and 13 PreAP-level courses, HIGH SAT score (5th highest in his class of 604 seniors), FOUR _killer_ recommendations/assessments (including ONE on FIRST letterhead)... and AP Scholar... and an award-winning poet and writer in his district of ELEVEN high schools and in Texas... and FOUR years of _competitive_ marching band and concert band playing TWO different instruments; the clarinet and the bassoon. The rest of his life was pretty-much dominated by FIRST and competition robotics, hence the D/L Award.

AFTER he received his 2012 Dean's List Finalist award, the following summer he took a _non-paid_ internship at the FIRST Central Region/Texas (Alamo) where he worked projects, built a 3D printer from the open-source RepRap model, built a holonomic drive FRC demo-robot for the district, and took that robot and FTC/FLL robots on the road around San Antonio to PROMOTE FIRST ROBOTICS where he presented to/spoke with about ONE THOUSAND middle-school students (SEVEN events total) who were attending summer PREP (pre-engineering) programs at area colleges.

STILL, it wasn't enough for those, at M.I.T. and Yale, who are represented to "love" and "want" Dean's List Finalist applicants...

--Michael

Re: Does M.I.T./Yale Success = FIRST Dean's List Finalist/Winner?
 

I think it serves underscoring that college admissions at the highest level is a crapshoot. Your son got unlucky, pure and simple.

I have friends who have perfect GPA's, extra curriculars up the wazoo, and fantastic essays but still don't get into their college of choice. There is literally no way I could tell them they could improve their application and they still didn't get in. Maybe the admissions counselor was having a bad day or your child violated one of the unspoken rules (a counselor from Cornell came down to our school and told us that he has a colleague who circles every time a student writes 'plethora' in their essay and dislikes their application more as the number goes up).

So maybe Dean is misrepresenting how much colleges care about Deans List. I just don't think it's reasonable to expect anything to be worth as much to colleges as some have claimed Deans List to be.

Re: Does M.I.T./Yale Success = FIRST Dean's List Finalist/Winner?
 

This, this, and this. I was a Dean's List finalist at WPI last year and I applied to colleges this year including MIT (I was declined). In my experience in the college application process the Dean's list is not an automatic acceptance to any college (except maybe WPI because they're absolutely in love with FIRST). It does help tremendously for FIRST scholarships, though.

The main benefit for a Dean's List finalist is all of the other experience that FIRST can offer. FIRST has helped me in problem solving and teamwork, which translates into academic success, and it has provided me with experiences that I could write about on the Common App and supplement essays.

Re: Does M.I.T./Yale Success = FIRST Dean's List Finalist/Winner?
 

As a high school student planning on applying at MIT, this is something I've personally had to make piece with. I had a chance to talk to some interviewers, and the fact is, as so many people have already said, there are simply too few spots for too many qualified applicants.

I think this interviewer told me something along the lines of "after a certain level, it's not what your grades or your extracurriculars were, it's what time the readers looked through your application."

She also told me that most of the applicants to MIT would be well suited to it. There's a certain caliber of student it takes to even consider applying. As a Junior waiting in the calm before the storm, I can't help but look in with dismay-- it looks like chaos from the outside, and from what I've heard from survivors, it sounds like chaos on the inside and afterwards.

I completely agree with Tuesday:

Re: Does M.I.T./Yale Success = FIRST Dean's List Finalist/Winner?
 

"...known criteria"? There is no such thing. I fear you have the mistaken impression that admission to these schools is a mathematical formula that one should be able to predict the result of by looking at the data. It is nothing of the sort. No matter how stellar one's portfolio is, you will never get to know what impression was left by such things as your essays or interviews. They are very large factors. Much bigger factors than a Dean's List Award, or even grades or test scores. It is a very difficult reality that one never gets to know exactly why they were not accepted to an elite school that they thought they were qualified for, but it is a high-risk reality that goes along with applying to these schools.

Re: Does M.I.T./Yale Success = FIRST Dean's List Finalist/Winner?
 

FIRST isn't making that correlation; you are. Unless FIRST ever told you that meeting some benchmark and making the List would guarantee admission, all I've seen them do is correlate Dean's List with more interest from admissions officers. Dean's talked to many, and they say are particularly interested in these students. Truthful and transparent.

Correlating this extra interest from admissions officers with admission to the university is where the logic falls apart, but that's your logic, not FIRST's. In fact, Dean hasn't even promised it'd increase probabilities, he's just reported conversations: top schools want DLs. But there are other applicants they want; no one ever implied exclusivity. Tradeoffs are necessary: MIT didn't take 1,620 students because #1,621 wasn't very interesting; they took 1,620 because that's what their cutoff is.

Re: Does M.I.T./Yale Success = FIRST Dean's List Finalist/Winner?
 

Jeff... there ABSOLUTELY is a known base-line in the objective measurements, both M.I.T. and Yale publish their data. ALL I'm talking about is the middle 50-percentile range. If you hit the numbers it's NOT a factor that has to be outweighed with other strengths or explained with a story.

For my son, on the interviews, all we have are the very positive/complimentary feedback from the TWO interviewers given right at the end of the interviews.

On the essays, maybe they thought they were crap... but, they were written by a multi-award winning writer in both middle-school and high school.

ALSO, I think you're so intent to prove me wrong on this, I think you've lost what I originally wrote in the OP. I just think the whole Dean's List Finalist value is overstated and over-sold as it relates to "desirability" with M.I.T. and Yale.

I wish I could share the info I've received via PM's on CD and FB; emails and one phone call. There's a bunch of people thinking exactly the same as me on this.

Re: Does M.I.T./Yale Success = FIRST Dean's List Finalist/Winner?
 

Siri... "top schools want DLs"?! SHOW ME the evidence supporting this _desire_, or stop posting on this.

WHAT is the actualization, WHAT is the _results_ of the statement "top schools want DLs"?!

--Michael

Re: Does M.I.T./Yale Success = FIRST Dean's List Finalist/Winner?
 

How do you know they dont want deans list finalists.... Show me the evidence?

maybe they wanted your son but chose not to admit him for another reason. I sent you a PM. I'd be glad to discuss this further. I am a student at Yale, and have lots of FIRST friends here at Yale and at MIT

Re: Does M.I.T./Yale Success = FIRST Dean's List Finalist/Winner?
 

I got a letter from WPI specifically commending me on being a DL finalist. That says something.

Nevertheless, HS students with high SATs and high GPAs and high class ranks will inevitably get A LOT of mail from colleges, and it'd be darn near impossible to figure out whether any of them are sent due to being a DL finalist..


Also to put the "no sure shot" of admissions in perspective, one of my friends, 3rd in the class out of ~300, plenty of APs, Drum Major/various other band commendations, was rejected from an extremely selective school for Computer Science, and upon having his guidance counselor call the admissions office to request why, she was told that since there were so many applicants for only XXX spots in the program, they had to start taking applicants with SAT math scores greater than XXX(something my friend did not have). So that shows that one great achievement will not "instantly" get you accepted.

Re: Does M.I.T./Yale Success = FIRST Dean's List Finalist/Winner?
 

I discussed this a bunch today with people, and I wanted to point out a possibility. This post isn't any sort of attack on your feelings, Michael, it is something to think about for the students/parents who might feel a bit bitter or disheartened.

Did you ever consider that the admissions officers, school presidents and representatives who spoke to Dean all made him feel the same way they make students feel after an interview or during a campus visit?

What I mean is this: Who in their right mind WOULDN'T praise Dean Kamen upon meeting him? I mean, it's freaking DEAN KAMEN. Who wouldn't say "Wow Dean, I love your program and what you're doing for these kids! I absolutely love FIRST students!" Admissions officers and interviewers make students feel comfortable and give positive feedback. I have never, in my experience and from any friends' experiences, received negative feedback from someone affiliated with a college. It just isn't what they do. They give you feedback that is usually positive or try to make you feel comfortable and answer questions about the university, they want you to open up and talk more about yourself. I think that this is most likely what schools do when they speak to Dean, because they might just be used to it. Who would say, "Well, I don't know, Dean. FIRST isn't that huge of a determining factor in our admissions process."

The only thing Dean can interpret from and relay back to you (you being general) is what colleges tell him. Of course they love kids in FIRST. Kids in FIRST are great! But, this is probably also the same thing they tell thousands of other kids in other organizations. Schools do this to get more kids to apply so that they can have more kids to pick and choose from.

Sorry if that sounds convoluted or doesn't make sense, it is late and I have exams tomorrow, but I just want to point out that Dean is clearly extremely excited in that video. You can tell when the man is beaming with happiness, most likely because he truly believes in what representatives from various universities have told him.

I do not think it is right or valid to place any sort of blame on Dean, a man who clearly loves and believes in what he is saying. I think that what folks from universities tell people in public will always be positive and optimistic because they want everyone to think they have a chance of getting in. Why? Because they want everyone to apply there (for various reasons). And what does more applicants mean? More kids who won't get a shot at attending because their simply aren't enough seats to fill from the pool of applicants.

This is just what I think. Again, it's late, don't mind my rambling too much but I think you, Michael, might be holding Dean/FIRST accountable for something they are not at fault for. Frankly, I don't think anyone is at fault for anything here and nothing needs to be changed. For all I know, there are kids out there who applied to a school they normally would have not applied to thanks to the Dean's List award. For all I know, the only motivation they had was their award. If they get in, it is a plus. Even if they are pushed into applying, that is also a plus. The award provides proof to kids that they are doing something right. That someone is recognizing their efforts. Most often, this is all that kids need to continue striving for success.

Sorry for a random theory/explanation. I'm just trying to mediate any hard feelings DL finalists might have towards Dean/FIRST for how they have stated things regarding the award.

/phew

Re: Does M.I.T./Yale Success = FIRST Dean's List Finalist/Winner?
 

Siri... JUST watch the darn video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature..._Wu_E#t=88 1s

... and put yourself in the place of a SEVENTEEN year old and his parents shooting for an M.I.T. education for FOUR years with the early conclusion that it's a "crapshoot". And then hearing the words at the ceremony and thinking, Holy Cow... this is REAL!

Causing us to expend time/effort/interactions/loads-of-$$$ where we would not have for a "crapshoot".

But, you know what, my experience is it's "a bunch of baloney". I'm sorry, but it's true.

--Michael

Re: Does M.I.T./Yale Success = FIRST Dean's List Finalist/Winner?
 

For 2010 and 2011 Dean's List winners, at least 8 (of 20) attended MIT, WPI, or Yale. At least 2 were accepted by MIT, and decided to attend elsewhere. 1 also had a spot reserved in Yale's graduate school, upon completion of their undergraduate degree.

For MIT's 2012 class, those numbers included an approx 17% acceptance rate for people scoring 2400 on their SAT's. Which means that more than 4 out of 5 still wouldn't be admitted. As has been mentioned, there isn't some magic number that makes admitance automatic.

Re: Does M.I.T./Yale Success = FIRST Dean's List Finalist/Winner?
 

Akash... you've been talking to a bunch of people... and I've been hearing from a bunch people off of this post who see things exactly the same way I see them and had the same results as my son.

I don't know why things ALWAYS devolve on CD from the OP. I'm NOT going negative on Dean Kamen, because I think he believes exactly what was said and is an awesome human being with a sincere heart. I'm just pointing out that in my experience (and now others are known to me) it wasn't true to the extent he communicated at the ceremony. Overstated and over-sold, that's all.

I am sorry that Dean's List Finalist ever came into our lives, because it caused a folly of time/effort/interactions/loads-of-$$$ that we wouldn't have expended because our heads were in the right place prior to D/L... it's a "crapshoot".

--Michael

Re: Does M.I.T./Yale Success = FIRST Dean's List Finalist/Winner?
 

I am sorry, but did you read my entire post? This is the exact thing I am trying to explain.

And I am sorry, but you repeat that line of wasted time/effort/interactions/loads of $$$ and I think overall you missed the point of the Dean's List award. You especially missed the entire point of the award if you wish your son had never received it.

But, I digress. This is the end of my posting to this thread.

Good luck to your son, he will do great things at whichever school he attends. That is all that counts at the end of the day.

Re: Does M.I.T./Yale Success = FIRST Dean's List Finalist/Winner?
 

Karlis... this is good data regarding D/L WINNERS, Thank You!

Do you know the numbers if you remove WPI?

Also, do you know numbers for D/L Finalists? That's been the main focus of this thread.

I know about the D/L WINNER who turned down M.I.T. and the Yale graduate success. That person is an outlier... an AWESOME outlier in their own league!! COMPLETE admiration and respect for that person...

--Michael

Re: Does M.I.T./Yale Success = FIRST Dean's List Finalist/Winner?
 

I'm going to be blunt here: it honestly sounds like you're just bitter that your son was not accepted to these schools and are searching for a reason why. Nowhere does FIRST claim the Dean's List guarantees you admittance.

Seriously, going to MIT or Yale is awesome if you can get in, but it's not the be all and end all of your life. Smart people are going to do well no matter what. I don't understand why you're so up in arms about this.

Also, if you're really serious about being sorry that your son was a Dean's List finalist, I'm sure FIRST would allow you to return the award. If you were pushing your son to do things specifically to win that award, then you were in it for the wrong reasons. I sincerely hope you're not saying that you/your son took that internship and promoted FIRST just so he could put it on his application for MIT or Yale.

Re: Does M.I.T./Yale Success = FIRST Dean's List Finalist/Winner?
 

Alexa... you're accusing me of motivations that just aren't there... mind-reading happens, I've observed, on CD a lot.

I _never_ used the word "guarantees".

I won't be involved with Dean's List again for my team unless they change the "pitch" regarding the _desirability_ of M.I.T. and Yale... that's my prerogative as a 54 year old man whose lived a lot of life.

Accusing me of possibly "pushing" my son is laughable IF you knew my son. The fact is ALL we knew about Dean's List PRIOR to him winning the award was what is in the Game Manual, TIMS, and some entries on CD. We didn't know ANYTHING about colleges desiring D/L until AFTER he won the award... which we had COMPLETELY forgotten about his submission so when his name was announced the reaction was, "Huh?! What award did they just announce? ALRIGHT, Dean's List way to go!!"... LOL

We had NO IDEA about how much FIRST valued the award... it was an interesting and pleasant surprise.

--Michael

Re: Does M.I.T./Yale Success = FIRST Dean's List Finalist/Winner?
 

I still don't understand why that makes any difference whatsoever? Would your son not have applied to MIT or taken the internship or promoted FIRST around San Antonio if he hadn't won the award? If not, why not?

I just don't understand what you're angry about. He was a Dean's List finalist and still didn't get into MIT or Yale. So what? I'm sure he'll be fine wherever he goes.

Re: Does M.I.T./Yale Success = FIRST Dean's List Finalist/Winner?
 

I don't understand why you particularly think that Dean's List is meant to be an award to peddle to colleges. I think the original intent was to recognize special individuals in the FIRST community, sort of like the All-Stars of FIRST. Just because someone has spent a lot of time and effort into FIRST does not equate to the required attitude, personality, and dedication needed for certain institutes.

I currently attend college at Georgia Tech, one of the top engineering universities in the world (ranked 6th I think?), after being denied from CalTech and Carnegie Mellon. I was really sad and mad when the decisions came in, seeing my classmates who wrote FIRST in their application but only showed up once or twice a week get into MIT and CalTech, or leaders who were never interested in improving or winning, and only saw robotics as some club getting all of these leadership scholarships and getting accepted into places like Stanford and Yale. College admissions are really a black box. You don't know what the others put on their application to get them into the institute, and you never know if your application viewer knows how important FIRST is or not. It's really unfortunate that arbitrary test scores and academic grades are the only constants that can measure the caliber of a student (quite poorly though), but it's not the end of the world if your son didn't get into MIT or Yale.

People have said this before, and now that I'm in college, I'll say it now. The only benefit of going to MIT over Georgia Tech in my case, would've been learning to pay off thousands of dollars in debt and bragging rights of going to the #1 school in ECE rather than the #5 school. The education is the same. I have friends who LEARN LESS in their first 2 years at MIT than their first 2 years at Georgia Tech. Does it really matter that your son won't get to say he went to the #1 institute? Even if it gets him a better paying job, he still has to pay off the massive student loans that an institute like MIT makes you take to pay off their tuition. It's not the end of the world. Know that just because you do FIRST, you aren't going to get into MIT. However, know that because you do FIRST, you will have an engineering background that will make you succeed no matter where you go.

Re: Does M.I.T./Yale Success = FIRST Dean's List Finalist/Winner?
 

60 of FIRST's best have been recognized for their great efforts in promoting FIRST and STEM programs through their community, and being the light that shines brightest among us, and draws us together to become something greater than ourselves. Not all of them will be accepted to an Ivy League institution, but they are still people worth recognizing and likely have the ability to succeed and catalyze communities wherever they go.

Tens of thousands of kids participate in FIRST at its highest level every year. Some of them go to Ivy League schools. Some go to community college. Most go to engineering schools or state universities with engineering programs. Very few of them receive the highest honor bestowed upon a FIRST student.

I didn't get into the college I wanted. I still love FIRST. I still go to a university I like. I still wake up every day with the rest of the world and try to make myself better. The sun still rises in the East, sets in the West, and robotics meetings still go on.

I don't feel like FIRST owes me anything. If anything, I owe almost everything I am to my religion, my family, and my other religion, which is being an active participant in FIRST after I have to take my hands off the joysticks for the last time.

There is a Dean's List Finalist from 422 this year. He has no idea where he wants to go to college. I don't even know if he's even visited any schools. But he is a remarkable kid that is going to be and Eagle Scout, an FLL mentor, an outreach guru, and a future FRC team captain... he is our role model. He is an incredibly bright kid with a heart of gold and he gives the work I put into my old team more meaning now than it did when I was a student.

We didn't recognize him because we feel like he deserves to go to Oxford on a full ride and this award is going to give it to him. We recognized him, along with the judges, because he represents the best we have to offer; a combination of his innate talent of getting people from all walks of life to gravitate to him, and to a lesser extent, those of us who facilitate the support system to make his work more impactful.

If you are making every move in your life and your son's life on getting him into Yale or MIT, I guess that's your prerogative. If your intent was to use this award to catapult your son to this objective, then you're just totally missing the point, man, and there is no other way to say that.

Think long and hard before you continue the crusade of passive-aggressive blame assignment on an award and the founder of the program that has enabled so many people to come together and become something greater than the sum of their works, including you and your sun.

Re: Does M.I.T./Yale Success = FIRST Dean's List Finalist/Winner?
 

Unless your son did something completely out of the ordinary, such as create a nuclear reactor from a coke can and some spare parts lying around in your garage, admission into high end universities is completely arbitrary and dependent on factors outside of FIRST. You may as well trust your luck for admission to a linear congruential generator generated output. Feeling entitled to admission is just setting both of you up for disappointment.

Re: Does M.I.T./Yale Success = FIRST Dean's List Finalist/Winner?
 

Alexa... he was ALWAYS applying to M.I.T., since the 8th grade. It's just that the mindset for ALL of us was it's a "crapshoot"... worth a shot, and a visit to the campus integrated into a family vacation... that's all.

And NO, he would not have taken the _unpaid_ internship with FIRST and taken a pass on a summer job that paid over $5k if not for the representations at the Champs ceremony. We could've used those $$ for his upcoming college expenses, but we decided he should double-down on FIRST given the good direction things seemed to be trending from his D/L award and that he should repay FIRST with further volunteering.

My son was, and has been, a HUGE promoter of FIRST in San Antonio for _years_... HOW do you think he won Dean's List?!

I'm NOT "angry"... you're mind-reading again, you shouldn't do that... ;-)

--Michael

Re: Does M.I.T./Yale Success = FIRST Dean's List Finalist/Winner?
 

When I'm helping to compile a pick list, there are frequently plenty of teams I want on my alliance. But an alliance captain only has the ability to actually pick two. There are going to be teams I wanted to play with that I end up playing against or miss the eliminations. Frequently an alliance captain will opt not to go with a "better" team, in favor of one that's a better fit.

It's entirely possible to want to admit a student, but simply not be able to do it. It certainly sounds like your son was qualified for Yale and MIT, and I'm sure that Yale and MIT wanted to admit your son. But there were plenty of other equally amazing students who I'm sure they also wanted to admit, and they only have room for so many. There are things in life that are disappointing. Just about everyone who applied for a "reach" school or prestigious university knows how much it hurts to get denied. I don't blame you for being frustrated and disillusioned.

But try to keep everything in context. There are things you cannot control in life, and this is one of them. Take this in stride. Raising a fuss because Dean got your hopes up is not going to improve anything. What's your goal here? To belittle the honors bestowed upon your son? To have FIRST downplay the significance of the awards it gives out?

And MIT and Yale are far from the only prestigious universities out there....

Re: Does M.I.T./Yale Success = FIRST Dean's List Finalist/Winner?
 

Sean... NO to "belittle". NO to "downplay the significance".

Just adjust the message about "prestigious" colleges (M.I.T. and Yale), or put in a disclaimer, or reveal ACTUAL numbers. This way people can come to the right conclusions on the value and then act accordingly.

Is THAT an obtuse want?

--Michael

Re: Does M.I.T./Yale Success = FIRST Dean's List Finalist/Winner?
 

This thread has started to devolve into personal attacks over semantics. I'm closing this thread for one day to let cooler minds prevail.