Dry Ice on Robot?
 

Would this be allowed or would it violate R08?

Re: Dry Ice on Robot?
 

I think the answer you're looking for is

Re: Dry Ice on Robot?
 

Of course, I'm sure it would speed up processor and drivetrain speeds.

I really hope you're kidding...

Re: Dry Ice on Robot?
 

I doubt it, but WHY???

Re: Dry Ice on Robot?
 

I think that if it is insulated so it cannot come in contact with a human, it could be legal. There is no specific prohibition, and the only hazard I can think of with it is frostbite.

One that we have discussed quite a bit but never had the nerve to try, is a hydraulic system using water as the fluid. It's not hazardous, it won't damage very many things, and we've been building underwater robots for years so we're quite familiar with dealing with water and electronics and mechanicals at the same time.

Re: Dry Ice on Robot?
 

I agree that if done properly then dry ice shouldn't be a problem, but why?

As for the hydraulic system using water; it would be hard to convince some people that is doesn't violate R37.

Re: Dry Ice on Robot?
 

The power for it would come from the robot battery, which powers a legal robot motor, which turns the pump.

Re: Dry Ice on Robot?
 

It would of course be protected so a human could not accidentally touch it.

Also, wouldn't the water be then considered a hydraulic fluid?

Re: Dry Ice on Robot?
 

Even when you are adding more dry ice? I think that might be the sticky point....

I'll get my lawyer working on that one.

Re: Dry Ice on Robot?
 

It would look cool

Re: Dry Ice on Robot?
 

What are you using it for?

My opinion would be that if it is doing anything useful (providing cooling) then it is an illegal energy source, as the energy for creating the dry ice did not come from any of the allowed sources of energy that may be used on a robot, and the dry ice effectively becomes a stored energy device.

If it's a "non-functional decoration" then there would be a very long discussion and evaluation regarding the safety aspects. After which it most likely would be deemed to be illegal.

Re: Dry Ice on Robot?
 

But what about using it between back-to-back elimination matches to cool off motors?

Re: Dry Ice on Robot?
 

Every material on the robot took energy to create, that does not mean they are contributing energy to the function of the robot. Wouldn't the sublimation of the dry ice be a net negative (consumer) process in terms of energy? How could it contribute stored energy to the robot?

Re: Dry Ice on Robot?
 

We played with that for fun - we put a bunch of crushed up dry ice in the bottom of a shop vac and checked the output temperature. The sublimation rate is not nearly fast enough to affect the temperature.

You'd have a fun argument on your hands if you tried to hold it on the motors yourself. Just used a compressed air can and turn it upside down. Same thing, safer, and probably faster too.

Re: Dry Ice on Robot?
 

Hmm would that classified as stored energy by deformation of a robot part (where in this case the deformation would be freezing)? IMO you also have a valid point about it not being stored energy; it seems like it would be "stored entropy."

As to how you could use dry ice to provide power to a robot... YouTube: Stirling Engine Running On Dry Ice. Maybe you could use the Stirling engine to power a fan to cool your motors? :cool: The energy for this would, as you point out, not be coming from the dry ice but from the ambient temperature, and under those terms could be ruled illegal.

Re: Dry Ice on Robot?
 

I would rather touch dry ice than an 8 inch pneumatic wheel spinning at 5000 RPM...:rolleyes:

Re: Dry Ice on Robot?
 

Well if one had a water block that could easily/quickly clamp over a motor, they could set up a water cooling system, and then have the radiator sitting in a cooler full of dry ice. Maybe even have it set up so a robot battery could be used to run the pump...

That seems like it's so much overkill though.

Re: Dry Ice on Robot?
 

It depends how hard and how long you have to touch each thing.

Re: Dry Ice on Robot?
 

Hmm... I like the illegal energy source interpretation, but really... wouldn't it be a perfectly legal energy sink? Thermodynamically, energy would flow from the warm chassis and motors into the ice... the robot itself would be an energy source. <edit... I see a few other thermodynamically-inclined respones to this idea popped up while I was writing this!>

Further to this thought, even if dry ice were to be considered an "energy source", would it not be included under the "deformation of robot parts". After all, the energy would come from the thermodynamic expansion of a gas, which is specifically legal in a closed-loop gas shock... which means the gas is a robot part and it is allowed to deform. I challenge anyone to find a rule prohibiting phase changes!

A logical thought experiment... would it be legal to leave the dry ice on the motors while queuing, then remove it immediately before going on to the field? I'd say "yes"... which means that having thermal gradients is legal.

(An interesting thought... for teams using off-board compressors... chill the air in your aluminum storage tanks, and place them above your warm motors... as the match goes on you might get a bit more energy out of them.)

If we really wanted to find excuses to not allow Dry Ice on the robot, we could try classifying it as "compressed air", and as it was compressed by a source other than the compressor then it might not be legal. However since "air" is primarily nitrogen, and Dry Ice is CO2, that would really be stretching it.

In short, however, if the dry ice was handled safely, and placed on the robot in a secure manner, unlikely to injure competitors or officials, and unlikely to damage the field or other robots.... it would be up to the event officials to explain under what rule they were disallowing the dry ice. If they couldn't do that, then they would be obliged to rule the dry ice legal.

And why not? I mean, it's just dry ice! I shared the same "gut feeling" as the cat at the top of the page, but after looking at all the rules... I'd have to pass it at inspection.

Jason

Re: Dry Ice on Robot?
 

This would probably be a major sticking point. I can't think of an RI that would look at a container of dry ice (even a completely safe one) and not question it. There also is a clause on the RI checklist about liquids and gasses used on the robot, and I can't think of what it exactly says off the top of my head.

Interesting arguments though

Re: Dry Ice on Robot?
 

Excellent example. This makes my head hurt. I can just see the new rule now:

"G53: Ambient energy of any form present within the boundaries of the PLAYING FIELD may not be harvested and employed by a ROBOT. This includes; thermal energy present in FIELD ELEMENTS, carpet, atmosphere, or other ROBOTS; radiant or photon energy from venue lighting; acoustic energy from the PA system or spectators; and magnetic or cosmic energy fields or streams which may exist within the venue. Violation: TECHINCAL FOUL"

Re: Dry Ice on Robot?
 

Interesting topic. On the line of dry ice, would liquid nitrogen used for the purpose of motor cooling violate any rules?

How about room-temperature mercury for the purpose of electrical conductivity (or if you have a lot of it, liquid-based weight distribution)?

I would think R37 specifically permits the use of ferrofluids as a way to store energy.

Re: Dry Ice on Robot?
 

According to this MSDS http://avogadro.chem.iastate.edu/MSD...xide_solid.htm Dry Ice can be toxic in a gaseous state. So therefore your team would have to prove that no fumes can escape your robot during operation. The problem then would become the dreaded "what-if" questions that inspectors like to ask.

Re: Dry Ice on Robot?
 

From the 2013 Inspection Checklist:

No Prohibited Materials – e.g. sound, lasers, noxious or toxic gases or inhalable particles or chemicals <R08>

Referring to Sec 4 of the Game Manual:

R08 ROBOT parts shall not be made from hazardous materials, be unsafe, cause an unsafe condition, or interfere with the operation of other ROBOTS.

Dry ice poses handling and asphyxiation risks. Also, if dry ice is put in a tightly closed container, the container may burst.

The grey area is if the dry ice is not part of the robot, but instead is used to cool components between matches, etc. In this case, dry ice is no longer an inspection issue, but the safety advisers may prohibit its use in the pits.

Re: Dry Ice on Robot?
 

Dry Ice is frozen Carbon Dioxide.
Dry ice, sometimes referred to as "Cardice" or as "card ice" (chiefly British English), is the solid form of carbon dioxide. It is used primarily as a cooling agent. Its advantages include lower temperature than that of water ice and not leaving any residue (other than incidental frost from moisture in the atmosphere). It is useful for preserving frozen foods, ice cream, etc., where mechanical cooling is unavailable. (wikipedia)

If CO2 is toxic to humans, then the drive team could be disqualified. :ahh:

There are far better ways to cool motors. Cooling fins, Heat sinks, airflow.

Did you want to create a mystery mist around your Robot? Kind of like the lighting schemes that many teams use?

Re: Dry Ice on Robot?
 

I'm surprised no one has yet mentioned that if you release any CO2 gas, then you are violating rule G13:

G13:




ROBOTS may not intentionally detach or leave parts on the FIELD.
Violation: TECHNICAL FOUL

Re: Dry Ice on Robot?
 

Precisely....we joked about using dry ice to create smoke trails for our frisbees ...one can dream...

Re: Dry Ice on Robot?
 

Do we now have to capture any air released from pneumatics?

Re: Dry Ice on Robot?
 

Just go to the question box and ask to be shown the detached part(s).:rolleyes:

Re: Dry Ice on Robot?
 

So if all goes as planned, they will waive the foul or you will get a free balloon every match. :cool:

Re: Dry Ice on Robot?
 

I like balloons though...note to self, start getting penalties for left behind pneumatic air

Re: Dry Ice on Robot?
 

If the field personnel see a "mist" coming out of your robot, they are going to hit the kill switch thinking something is on fire in there!

Not the result I want.

Dr. Bob
Chairman's Award is not about building the robot. Every team builds a robot.

Re: Dry Ice on Robot?
 

Safer for the humans, but those permanent magnets inside the CIMs (and many other motors) are about as fragile as glass.

Try this: Boil a regular drinking glass, then plunge it into ice cold water. What happens? Yep, same for a ferrite magnet, which means you'll be changing a motor soon.

Re: Dry Ice on Robot?
 

For point of not getting in trouble with my parents, I assume the glass would crack? I can see why people would look for ways to cool a motor down fast after a match, but even after playing some back to backs with "pushing" matches, I can't recall our motors getting too hot. Meaning they still pass the 5 second test. Maybe it's just the competitions I've been in.

Re: Dry Ice on Robot?
 

To be safer than the science experiment recommended above, you can get the same effect by boiling water inside an open soda can, then turning the can upside down and dunk it into cold water.

Re: Dry Ice on Robot?
 

I know a timeout (timeouts even?) was taken at the 2010 MSC finals because we had back-to-back-to-back-to-back matches and our motors were literally too hot to touch. I think we cooled them with wet rags, but that was pretty slow.

Re: Dry Ice on Robot?
 

C02 is not toxic to humans. Without it you have no breathing reflex, stop breathing, & die. One of the reasons confined space access is such a pain in the @#Q. (Oxygen deficiency lead to no C02 in lunges). :]

Re: Dry Ice on Robot?
 

Well, that's a somewhat special case and won't be happening in official competitions with the new tie breaker system.