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-   -   [FRCTop25.com] Final Rankings Show! (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=115956)

MrJohnston 11-04-2013 02:47
Re: [FRCTop25.com] Final Rankings Show!
 
I have a week off work and am spending it scouting.... a lot of teams. I've seen nearly every team in FIRST at this point - though am only 1/2 done scouting them....

RE: Northwest Teams
There are four or five really, really strong teams in the Pacific Northwest that would rank in the top 25 (though top ten is questionable) - if they can manage not to have mechanical problems. 2471, 1983, 360, 1318 and 948 all have very good robots, however each (except maybe 360?) has had some sort of issue at some point... It's hard to rank them that high in a subjective pole with the "issues' they've had. Consider: 1983 might be the best robot in the Northwest, but, in three competitions, have yet to take the #1 seed.

RE: Those Canadians
Yup... There are a lot of really, really good robots in Canada. Watch the videos for the Greater Toronto East Regional... 1114 and 2056 are really, really good... Really good. They might be the best two robots in FIRST.

RE: Other areas
Yes, there are areas where robots are stronger than others... There are cases where a robot plays in two regionals, in different geographic areas. At both, it peforms just about the same. However, at one it doesn't get chosen for eliminations. At the other, it's one of the top three or four bots.

One weakness of any top 25 list is that it does not account for robots with very different purposes. This is an alliance game and, to win, you need robots to do different things - just as, in football, you won't win too many games with a team full of linebackers. Some robots focus on cycling, others on picking up loose disks, some on climbing and others on distance shots. How do you compare a FCS vs. a cycling bot, for instance? Whose the better football player, the quarterback or middle linebacker?

princessnatalie 11-04-2013 03:51
Re: [FRCTop25.com] Final Rankings Show!
 
Mike and Justin make it clear every week that this is just for fun, and if you don't vote you cannot complain!

They take a lot of time to do their show when they are busy with school and their own teams, too. Mike & Justin already know how much I love them (despite the fact that my team has never been on their list) just because they are so passionate and entertaining week after week. So thanks guys, for being so energetic and amazing in every show (and in real life, you guys are pretty cool too;) ).

waialua359 11-04-2013 04:05
Re: [FRCTop25.com] Final Rankings Show!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by princessnatalie (Post 1260370)
Mike and Justin make it clear every week that this is just for fun, and if you don't vote you cannot complain!

They take a lot of time to do their show when they are busy with school and their own teams, too. Mike & Justin already know how much I love them (despite the fact that my team has never been on their list) just because they are so passionate and entertaining week after week. So thanks guys, for being so energetic and amazing in every show (and in real life, you guys are pretty cool too;) ).
This post just about sums it up.
Its for fun.

Personally, we had a great season, was #1 all 3 events, hope we never have a mishap like the one this past weekend, and most importantly had fun this season.
In looking at this poll, it does nothing for us, in terms of focusing on what we need to do, in order to be successful at CMPs and the kind of partners we need/others need that we have to offer.

There are tons of experienced scouters at CMP. I hope our team is ready to scout each and every team in our division in case we end up in the top 8.

CrazyMohawk 11-04-2013 05:21
Re: [FRCTop25.com] Final Rankings Show!
 
The Northwest might get some attention next year when we switch to the district model.:)

dodar 11-04-2013 08:08
Re: [FRCTop25.com] Final Rankings Show!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrJohnston (Post 1260364)
I have a week off work and am spending it scouting.... a lot of teams. I've seen nearly every team in FIRST at this point - though am only 1/2 done scouting them....

RE: Northwest Teams
There are four or five really, really strong teams in the Pacific Northwest that would rank in the top 25 (though top ten is questionable) - if they can manage not to have mechanical problems. 2471, 1983, 360, 1318 and 948 all have very good robots, however each (except maybe 360?) has had some sort of issue at some point... It's hard to rank them that high in a subjective pole with the "issues' they've had. Consider: 1983 might be the best robot in the Northwest, but, in three competitions, have yet to take the #1 seed.

RE: Those Canadians
Yup... There are a lot of really, really good robots in Canada. Watch the videos for the Greater Toronto East Regional... 1114 and 2056 are really, really good... Really good. They might be the best two robots in FIRST.

RE: Other areas
Yes, there are areas where robots are stronger than others... There are cases where a robot plays in two regionals, in different geographic areas. At both, it peforms just about the same. However, at one it doesn't get chosen for eliminations. At the other, it's one of the top three or four bots.

One weakness of any top 25 list is that it does not account for robots with very different purposes. This is an alliance game and, to win, you need robots to do different things - just as, in football, you won't win too many games with a team full of linebackers. Some robots focus on cycling, others on picking up loose disks, some on climbing and others on distance shots. How do you compare a FCS vs. a cycling bot, for instance? Whose the better football player, the quarterback or middle linebacker?
Neither has 1114.

CrazyMohawk 11-04-2013 08:29
Re: [FRCTop25.com] Final Rankings Show!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dodar (Post 1260390)
Neither has 1114.
only because 2056 has a better auton.

Jack_poldon 11-04-2013 08:59
Re: [FRCTop25.com] Final Rankings Show!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Lim (Post 1260363)
I really like the FRC Top 25 for this reason. Every week, there is a smattering of teams I've never heard of on it that are amazing.

These are the teams that don't win the banners, don't have a big presence on CD, and are generally unknowns in the community. But these teams have built otherwise world-class machines that some very knowledgeable peers have chosen to recognize.

Without a doubt, I scan the list for teams I DON'T recognize, and pay a lot more attention to them than the ones I DO. To me, this is the best part about FRC Top 25.

In fact...

There is a big grin on my face seeing the team in the #17 spot, who no one outside of Ontario has ever seen before. Yet enough people have picked up on them to recognize that a robot with:
  • a 7-disc auton
  • feeder station cycling/pyramid shots
  • ground pick-up/pyramid shots
  • full court shooting
  • 10pt hang
...is probably one of the best robots in the world right now - despite this team NEVER having won a regional, or ever qualifying for champs before.

They're one of the least recognized teams with respect to the amount that they've been able to achieve consistently for the past few years, both on and off the field.
It's great to here feedback like this. As a senior member of the team who has been through 5 finals against 2056 and 1114 it has been tough. However, they are role models and push our level of play each year. Thanks to the wild card rule we are attending championships (as Mr. Lim stated and thanks to 610 and 3756).

If you haven't heard about our team (1310) here are a few clips:

http://watchfirstnow.com/archive3.php?id=62472036
http://watchfirstnow.com/archive3.php?id=63000921
http://watchfirstnow.com/archive3.php?id=62515533

Bill_B 11-04-2013 09:23
Re: [FRCTop25.com] Final Rankings Show!
 
The Academy Awards started out being an excuse to have a night out and hash over some insider opinions about the movie industry in tinsel town. Then the moguls got ahold of it and turned it into a "really big deal." Does the Academy do a good job of recognizing accomplishments in entertainment? Depends on where and who you are, but it is certainly a source of discussion for those who are interested.

Are Mike and Justin in the same position as the Oscars? No. Not yet? Are they one of the focal points of discussion about FIRST accomplishments? Sure. And they do hand out stickers. Are they likely to engage Price Waterhouse to monitor the balloting? Not likely. Do we care? Not me, I'm just thankful when I can remember to "tune" them in on time. Thanks, guys.

Robotmmm 11-04-2013 10:22
Re: [FRCTop25.com] Final Rankings Show!
 
Fun fact:

Team 11 is #21 on the Top 25 list.

Their OPR rank is also #21.

(off to see how the rest of the teams line up)

Anupam Goli 11-04-2013 10:35
Re: [FRCTop25.com] Final Rankings Show!
 
Mike and Justin always do a great show, there's no doubt. I always enjoy the 2 hours the show runs. Sometimes the voters show their bias in their rankings, so the rankings will never satisfy everyone. The vast majority of the FRC community doesn't participate in the vote, and an even smaller portion of the minority that DOES vote actually does their research before voting. It's easy to get frustrated at the rankings are when you do most of your research and vote. (Although I'm guilty of regional biases too).

Robotmmm 11-04-2013 10:49
Re: [FRCTop25.com] Final Rankings Show!
 
OK, I compared the Top 25 to their OPR ranking (not an unflawed system, but at these based on data).

Top 25---- OPR

25. 1334--- 50
24. 2169--- 8
23. 624--- 24
22. 1806--- 12
21. 11---- 21
20. 1718--- 39
19. 2590--- 18
18. 341--- 266
17. 1310--- 37
16. 111--- 29
15. 868--- 6
14. 1477--- 49
13. 359--- 16
12. 148--- 46
11. 67--- 32
10. 610--- 38
9. 1717--- 17
8. 33--- 10
7. 469--- 4
6. 987--- 3
5. 118--- 5
4. 254--- 23
3. 1986--- 7
2. 2056--- 1
1. 1114--- 2


And since this team was discussed, 1983's OPR is #95.

BrendanB 11-04-2013 10:54
Re: [FRCTop25.com] Final Rankings Show!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wing (Post 1260434)
Mike and Justin always do a great show, there's no doubt. I always enjoy the 2 hours the show runs. Sometimes the voters show their bias in their rankings, so the rankings will never satisfy everyone. The vast majority of the FRC community doesn't participate in the vote, and an even smaller portion of the minority that DOES vote actually does their research before voting. It's easy to get frustrated at the rankings are when you do most of your research and vote. (Although I'm guilty of regional biases too).
Especially in this year. Years like 2011 are easy in a sense that you can base who is number 1 by total tubes scored/fastest minibot. This season has brought forth a huge dynamic of playing the game with ground pick, autonomous 5 & 7 discs, full court shooting, fast cycles to the human player, quick 10 point hang, quick 30 point hang, 50 point dump, etc. All of which have proven effective strategies for winning regionals but its hard to say what is the number one strategy or number one robot for that matter when everyone brings something different to the table!

I love when people gripe about not being in the top 25 or their rank in the top 25. Its the top 25 of 2500+ robots. Even making it into the top 30-40 is huge!

Jack_poldon 11-04-2013 11:24
Re: [FRCTop25.com] Final Rankings Show!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Lim (Post 1260363)
I really like the FRC Top 25 for this reason. Every week, there is a smattering of teams I've never heard of on it that are amazing.

These are the teams that don't win the banners, don't have a big presence on CD, and are generally unknowns in the community. But these teams have built otherwise world-class machines that some very knowledgeable peers have chosen to recognize.

Without a doubt, I scan the list for teams I DON'T recognize, and pay a lot more attention to them than the ones I DO. To me, this is the best part about FRC Top 25.

In fact...

There is a big grin on my face seeing the team in the #17 spot, who no one outside of Ontario has ever seen before. Yet enough people have picked up on them to recognize that a robot with:
  • a 7-disc auton
  • feeder station cycling/pyramid shots
  • ground pick-up/pyramid shots
  • full court shooting
  • 10pt hang
...is probably one of the best robots in the world right now - despite this team NEVER having won a regional, or ever qualifying for champs before.

They're one of the least recognized teams with respect to the amount that they've been able to achieve consistently for the past few years, both on and off the field.
It's amazing to here feedback like this. Our team has worked hard for 10 years and have come 2nd countless times. As a senior member of team 1310, I've gone through 5 finals against 1114 and 2056 (to lose them all). However, both teams we view as role models and the push us and other Canadian teams to excellence. This year we finally pulled through to advance to the Championships (first time in team history), with help from the wild card and our Waterloo eliminations alliance(610 and 3756).
This year in particular, our team has definitely stepped up our game. Without the help from teachers(due to the Ontario Teachers Work Action), we have relied on the support of our principal and mentors. This has been our most successful season by far and it's not over yet.

If you haven't heard of our team here's a couple of links:
http://watchfirstnow.com/archive3.php?id=62514775
http://watchfirstnow.com/archive3.php?id=62472036
http://watchfirstnow.com/archive3.php?id=63000921
https://www.facebook.com/Team1310?fref=ts
www.runnymederobotics.com

See everyone in St. Louis!!!
Thanks again Mr. Lim!!!

ErvinI 11-04-2013 11:35
Re: [FRCTop25.com] Final Rankings Show!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robotmmm (Post 1260439)
OK, I compared the Top 25 to their OPR ranking (not an unflawed system, but at these based on data).

Top 25---- OPR

25. 1334--- 50
24. 2169--- 8
23. 624--- 24
22. 1806--- 12
21. 11---- 21
20. 1718--- 39
19. 2590--- 18
18. 341--- 266
17. 1310--- 37
16. 111--- 29
15. 868--- 6
14. 1477--- 49
13. 359--- 16
12. 148--- 46
11. 67--- 32
10. 610--- 38
9. 1717--- 17
8. 33--- 10
7. 469--- 4
6. 987--- 3
5. 118--- 5
4. 254--- 23
3. 1986--- 7
2. 2056--- 1
1. 1114--- 2


And since this team was discussed, 1983's OPR is #95.
For reference's sake, here's a comparison between their Max OPR Rank and their FRCTop25 rank:

Top 25---- Max OPR Rank (Average OPR Rank)

25. 1334--- 22 (50)
24. 2169--- 19 (8)
23. 624--- 7 (24)
22. 1806--- 24 (12)
21. 11---- 46 (21)
20. 1718--- 45 (39)
19. 2590--- 9 (18)
18. 341--- 284 (266)
17. 1310--- 65 (37)
16. 111--- 21 (29)
15. 868--- 10 (6)
14. 1477--- 11 (49)
13. 359--- 18 (16)
12. 148--- 20 (46)
11. 67--- 15 (32)
10. 610--- 33 (38)
9. 1717--- 6 (17)
8. 33--- 16 (10)
7. 469--- 3 (4)
6. 987--- 4 (3)
5. 118--- 5 (5)
4. 254--- 13 (23)
3. 1986--- 8 (7)
2. 2056--- 2 (1)
1. 1114--- 1 (2)

Max OPR reference: http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...7&postcount=65

Bob Steele 11-04-2013 12:09
Re: [FRCTop25.com] Final Rankings Show!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by PayneTrain (Post 1260353)
There are over 2500 FRC teams.
There are over 6 dozen events this year.

There were only 80 ballots.

There is plenty of time for me to
a) respect a team like 1983 that won 4 banners in 3 straight events
b) watch Mike & Justin's show and have some fun for a few hours
c) pass my Computer science class

But, as I imagine is the case for a lot of people, it's hard to take the right amount of time to do the due diligence necessary to fill out a bracket that one is comfortable calling an honest assessment of the top 1% of teams in competition, so polls go entirely unfilled.

It's a peer poll. It's all for fun. Like there is an East Coast bias in sports, the poll reflects an obvious Northeast, California, and Michigan bias because there are high concentrations of teams there and a high likelihood voters hail from those locations. Results like 1986 and 111 are results of being very visible presence on Chief Delphi, which honestly can't be said for a lot of teams in the Southeast or Northwest.

If you built a robot and a team that won 4 banners in 3 events, I'm not sure what other validation you need other than that of multiple panels of judges, the results on the field, and most importantly, the impact your team is making at home.


I guess I need to make a comment. I really appreciate the show. I know it takes time and effort to do it and dedication to FIRST so thank you Mike and Justin for doing it. We had great fun last year with you after the little misspelling incident. :)

Our team was blessed this year to have great students, great mentors, great alumni, and GREAT alliance partners. We learned a lot from competing. It has been wonderful to see our kids inspired.

Top 25 is fun. I learn about teams I never have seen. Last year I was amazed with some of those teams at CMP. Let's keep it fun. Vote if you wish. Watch the show by all means. Be proud of your teams!!

Banners and rankings are not why we do this. Inspiration is.

You all inspire me ... Even after more than a decade of FIRST...

We will see you all in a couple of weeks and renew our friendships and
"Compete like crazy".

Good luck on the field!!!!


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