[FRCTop25.com] Final Rankings Show!
 

Hey guys, this is it!

The final rankings for Ultimate Ascent!

We'll be live in less than 10 minutes! Please join us!

http://www.livestream.com/mikeandjustinitm

Re: [FRCTop25.com] Final Rankings Show!
 

Final rankings? Are you not doing rankings after week 7 or the championships?

Re: [FRCTop25.com] Final Rankings Show!
 

Rankings for this weeks FRC Top 25:

25. 1334
24. 2169
23. 624
22. 1806
21. 11
20. 1718
19. 2590
18. 341
17. 1310
16. 111
15. 868
14. 1477
13. 359
12. 148
11. 67
10. 610
9. 1717
8. 33
7. 469
6. 987
5. 118
4. 254
3. 1986
2. 2056
1. 1114

And for Zoo animals:
5. lion
4. elephant
3. monkey
2. rhino
1. tiger

Re: [FRCTop25.com] Final Rankings Show!
 

Wow, not a single team from the Southeast...

Re: [FRCTop25.com] Final Rankings Show!
 

Or the Northwest.

Re: [FRCTop25.com] Final Rankings Show!
 

Good thing people did their research before voting. :rolleyes:

Re: [FRCTop25.com] Final Rankings Show!
 

Criminal.

Re: [FRCTop25.com] Final Rankings Show!
 

Yeah I know, that 16th ranked was totally carried :rolleyes: Looks like a semi-decent list. I'm surprised that 1114 surpassed 2056 for a general climb/dump over floor loading.

Re: [FRCTop25.com] Final Rankings Show!
 

It is what it is, some peoples perception of the best 25 robots in FIRST. Not making it is not a disappointment, it just shows that we are not that well known across the country, or that people view the northwest teams as weaker and our wins less meaningful. Letting this upset our team would be pointless, we are proud of what we have accomplished, and not being recognized by some people should not diminish that.

Re: [FRCTop25.com] Final Rankings Show!
 

Alright: 1114 has a 3 disc auton, 2056 has 7. 18-42. 1114 has 50 point climb, 2056 has 10. 68-52. 2056 picks up, but 1114 has cycles just as fast as 2056 can shoot; their feeding is razor sharp.

1114 > 2056, in my honest opinion.

Re: [FRCTop25.com] Final Rankings Show!
 

Also likely that relatively few people from the Northwest (or Southeast) voted. Anyone from the Northwest would put 1983 on their list, possibly along with other deserving teams like 2471.

Re: [FRCTop25.com] Final Rankings Show!
 

I would have to agree that there are some really good teams that get left out every week. What really surprises me is that week after week most people do not vote for more that 15 teams. This week 20 of 82 voters had all 25 filled out with only 8 going more than 15. With so many good teams having competed this season I was expecting way more people filling all 25. Anyone didn't fill out more that 15 care to explain why?

Re: [FRCTop25.com] Final Rankings Show!
 

I admit I only voted for 17 teams. I was only familiar with about 17 really good robots to put on the list. I would rather vote for 15 teams I know and believe did well instead of 25 teams with 10 or so teams just randomly written down to fill in blanks.

Re: [FRCTop25.com] Final Rankings Show!
 

Remember, while 1114 can dump the four colored discs, that's only 8 EXTRA points because using that load in the 3pt goal would result in 12 points.

56-52 or 68-64 depending on how you look at it. 1114 comes out on top, but not by a 16 point margin.

Re: [FRCTop25.com] Final Rankings Show!
 

All the easier to take them by surprise in St. Louis that way :P

Re: [FRCTop25.com] Final Rankings Show!
 

I think the advantage 1114 has over 2056 at Champs is how unique they are. If you think about it, the number of bots with a 30 point climb that can shoot accurately and quickly is pretty limited (1114 and 254 come to mind). Several teams can do a 7 disk auto/and have an efficient enough ground pickup during tele-op (118, 254, 1477, 987). The amount of 7 disk auto bots in a division at Champs compared with climbing shooters is probably 3:1. If I had the choice, I would take 1114 any day.

Re: [FRCTop25.com] Final Rankings Show!
 

This is the first time I can remember ever seeing a Minnesota team on the list (2169). Unlike most sports there are 2000+ FRC teams in the US and it is simply impossible for a single person voting to know everything about all the teams. I view FRC Top 25 as more of a popularity contest (aka who gets talked about the most) then an accurate ranking system.

Re: [FRCTop25.com] Final Rankings Show!
 

Not enough time/energy to dig deep into memory. If I had a lot of time and data I would, but build season never ends. :P

Re: [FRCTop25.com] Final Rankings Show!
 

I'm surprised I don't see 2471 Mean Machine up there. Fantastic job in Portland and great alliance partner in Spokane. They'll give everyone a scare in St. Louis when they pull out their five disc auto for the first time. An FCS that can pick up discs off the center line in Auto is potent--especially paired with a shuttle-bot team that can pick them up off the ground under and in front of the pyramid. We'll be trying out a six disc Auto in St. Louis, so maybe 2471 and us can get together again and sweep up the floor in Auto.

Re: [FRCTop25.com] Final Rankings Show!
 

Well, I've seen the Skunks (1983) arguably the top team in the Northwest in person, and I've seen 1334, currently ranked 25th, in person.

I greatly admire Skunkworks and many teams in Washington and Oregon, but to be perfectly honest unless Skunkworks got a 50 point climb and dump working for Spokane, 1334 will beat them every time.

Sincere apologies to my friends in the Northwest, but I've played in Oregon, I've played in Washington and I've played in Ontario.

Ontario really is that good. One day I'll have to check out Michigan... I hear they know how to make robots there, too. :)

On the other hand, keep in mind that the list of zoo animals didn't have Pandas on it. I mean really... if the zoo animals didn't have Pandas on it, how can you take the other list too seriously?

Jason

P.S. What? No animals from North America? I've seen a Grizzly Bear and a Grizzly will kick a tiger's butt any day! And don't even get me started talking about Polar Bears!

Re: [FRCTop25.com] Final Rankings Show!
 

Relax all, it is just peer voting.

Re: [FRCTop25.com] Final Rankings Show!
 

Unfortunately we are 119.7 lbs and will not be adding a 30 point climber. We have given the robot the ability to go to a steeper shooting angle though and may give shooting at the top of the pyramid a go.

Re: [FRCTop25.com] Final Rankings Show!
 

Not many teams can go 3/3 in a season: 33, 118, 469, 1114, 1983, 1986, and 2056 are the only ones to go 3/3 with regional victories. 1983 is the only one that has done it in 3 back to back competitions. Think about that for a moment: with an immediate turn around between events and very little time to iterate and perfect their designs, they still win every week. That's just amazing. They might not be as well known as the Canadian duo or the famous Texas and California teams, but they deserve to be recognized among the top. I'm gonna hop onto the 1983 fan train and hope they go far at Championships.

Re: [FRCTop25.com] Final Rankings Show!
 

There are over 2500 FRC teams.
There are over 6 dozen events this year.

There were only 80 ballots.

There is plenty of time for me to
a) respect a team like 1983 that won 4 banners in 3 straight events
b) watch Mike & Justin's show and have some fun for a few hours
c) pass my Computer science class

But, as I imagine is the case for a lot of people, it's hard to take the right amount of time to do the due diligence necessary to fill out a bracket that one is comfortable calling an honest assessment of the top 1% of teams in competition, so polls go entirely unfilled.

It's a peer poll. It's all for fun. Like there is an East Coast bias in sports, the poll reflects an obvious Northeast, California, and Michigan bias because there are high concentrations of teams there and a high likelihood voters hail from those locations. Results like 1986 and 111 are results of being very visible presence on Chief Delphi, which honestly can't be said for a lot of teams in the Southeast or Northwest.

If you built a robot and a team that won 4 banners in 3 events, I'm not sure what other validation you need other than that of multiple panels of judges, the results on the field, and most importantly, the impact your team is making at home.

Re: [FRCTop25.com] Final Rankings Show!
 

Is there any way to track where voters (and viewers) are from? Something as simple as a state or province or country, just to get a general idea of regional biases?

Hint hint: Future field on the voters ballot:D

Re: [FRCTop25.com] Final Rankings Show!
 

To steal from another sport that uses a (ridiculous) ranking system maybe we adopt the BCS style of ranking from college football.

We take a general populus vote (AP Poll)
Then certain mentors from established teams and educated people from delphi are selected and they cast a ballot (coaches poll)
And then we use some style of FIM point calculation for the entire nation (dont need to rank just need to know how many points they got in their own region or whatever) And we just combine those

I think it sounds a lot harder than it would be *shrugs* But the BCS doesnt work either sooooo

Re: [FRCTop25.com] Final Rankings Show!
 

FRCtop25 used to do a coaches poll; and it was decent and accurate. The current rankings are garbage, it's more about buzz and hype than anything else.

Re: [FRCTop25.com] Final Rankings Show!
 

There are no NE teams on this list.

Re: [FRCTop25.com] Final Rankings Show!
 

Rather than ranking, it would be nice for the show to shift to showcasing cool robots and highlights. Kinda like the mentor poll, where certain key people write references for a cool robot or game highlight in their area.

With all the OPR data done by Ed Law, and threads showing district raking points, I don't really need another list of robots in sequential order.

I like listening to top 25 for its entertainment value. I think showcasing the top 25 coolest robots and highlights of the week would have me hooked every week.

Re: [FRCTop25.com] Final Rankings Show!
 

I really like the FRC Top 25 for this reason. Every week, there is a smattering of teams I've never heard of on it that are amazing.

These are the teams that don't win the banners, don't have a big presence on CD, and are generally unknowns in the community. But these teams have built otherwise world-class machines that some very knowledgeable peers have chosen to recognize.

Without a doubt, I scan the list for teams I DON'T recognize, and pay a lot more attention to them than the ones I DO. To me, this is the best part about FRC Top 25.

In fact...

There is a big grin on my face seeing the team in the #17 spot, who no one outside of Ontario has ever seen before. Yet enough people have picked up on them to recognize that a robot with:

• a 7-disc auton
• feeder station cycling/pyramid shots
• ground pick-up/pyramid shots
• full court shooting
• 10pt hang

...is probably one of the best robots in the world right now - despite this team NEVER having won a regional, or ever qualifying for champs before.

They're one of the least recognized teams with respect to the amount that they've been able to achieve consistently for the past few years, both on and off the field.

Re: [FRCTop25.com] Final Rankings Show!
 

I have a week off work and am spending it scouting.... a lot of teams. I've seen nearly every team in FIRST at this point - though am only 1/2 done scouting them....

RE: Northwest Teams
There are four or five really, really strong teams in the Pacific Northwest that would rank in the top 25 (though top ten is questionable) - if they can manage not to have mechanical problems. 2471, 1983, 360, 1318 and 948 all have very good robots, however each (except maybe 360?) has had some sort of issue at some point... It's hard to rank them that high in a subjective pole with the "issues' they've had. Consider: 1983 might be the best robot in the Northwest, but, in three competitions, have yet to take the #1 seed.

RE: Those Canadians
Yup... There are a lot of really, really good robots in Canada. Watch the videos for the Greater Toronto East Regional... 1114 and 2056 are really, really good... Really good. They might be the best two robots in FIRST.

RE: Other areas
Yes, there are areas where robots are stronger than others... There are cases where a robot plays in two regionals, in different geographic areas. At both, it peforms just about the same. However, at one it doesn't get chosen for eliminations. At the other, it's one of the top three or four bots.

One weakness of any top 25 list is that it does not account for robots with very different purposes. This is an alliance game and, to win, you need robots to do different things - just as, in football, you won't win too many games with a team full of linebackers. Some robots focus on cycling, others on picking up loose disks, some on climbing and others on distance shots. How do you compare a FCS vs. a cycling bot, for instance? Whose the better football player, the quarterback or middle linebacker?

Re: [FRCTop25.com] Final Rankings Show!
 

Mike and Justin make it clear every week that this is just for fun, and if you don't vote you cannot complain!

They take a lot of time to do their show when they are busy with school and their own teams, too. Mike & Justin already know how much I love them (despite the fact that my team has never been on their list) just because they are so passionate and entertaining week after week. So thanks guys, for being so energetic and amazing in every show (and in real life, you guys are pretty cool too;) ).

Re: [FRCTop25.com] Final Rankings Show!
 

This post just about sums it up.
Its for fun.

Personally, we had a great season, was #1 all 3 events, hope we never have a mishap like the one this past weekend, and most importantly had fun this season.
In looking at this poll, it does nothing for us, in terms of focusing on what we need to do, in order to be successful at CMPs and the kind of partners we need/others need that we have to offer.

There are tons of experienced scouters at CMP. I hope our team is ready to scout each and every team in our division in case we end up in the top 8.

Re: [FRCTop25.com] Final Rankings Show!
 

The Northwest might get some attention next year when we switch to the district model.:)

Re: [FRCTop25.com] Final Rankings Show!
 

Neither has 1114.

Re: [FRCTop25.com] Final Rankings Show!
 

only because 2056 has a better auton.

Re: [FRCTop25.com] Final Rankings Show!
 

It's great to here feedback like this. As a senior member of the team who has been through 5 finals against 2056 and 1114 it has been tough. However, they are role models and push our level of play each year. Thanks to the wild card rule we are attending championships (as Mr. Lim stated and thanks to 610 and 3756).

If you haven't heard about our team (1310) here are a few clips:

http://watchfirstnow.com/archive3.php?id=62472036
http://watchfirstnow.com/archive3.php?id=63000921
http://watchfirstnow.com/archive3.php?id=62515533

Re: [FRCTop25.com] Final Rankings Show!
 

The Academy Awards started out being an excuse to have a night out and hash over some insider opinions about the movie industry in tinsel town. Then the moguls got ahold of it and turned it into a "really big deal." Does the Academy do a good job of recognizing accomplishments in entertainment? Depends on where and who you are, but it is certainly a source of discussion for those who are interested.

Are Mike and Justin in the same position as the Oscars? No. Not yet? Are they one of the focal points of discussion about FIRST accomplishments? Sure. And they do hand out stickers. Are they likely to engage Price Waterhouse to monitor the balloting? Not likely. Do we care? Not me, I'm just thankful when I can remember to "tune" them in on time. Thanks, guys.

Re: [FRCTop25.com] Final Rankings Show!
 

Fun fact:

Team 11 is #21 on the Top 25 list.

Their OPR rank is also #21.

(off to see how the rest of the teams line up)

Re: [FRCTop25.com] Final Rankings Show!
 

Mike and Justin always do a great show, there's no doubt. I always enjoy the 2 hours the show runs. Sometimes the voters show their bias in their rankings, so the rankings will never satisfy everyone. The vast majority of the FRC community doesn't participate in the vote, and an even smaller portion of the minority that DOES vote actually does their research before voting. It's easy to get frustrated at the rankings are when you do most of your research and vote. (Although I'm guilty of regional biases too).

Re: [FRCTop25.com] Final Rankings Show!
 

OK, I compared the Top 25 to their OPR ranking (not an unflawed system, but at these based on data).

Top 25---- OPR

25. 1334--- 50
24. 2169--- 8
23. 624--- 24
22. 1806--- 12
21. 11---- 21
20. 1718--- 39
19. 2590--- 18
18. 341--- 266
17. 1310--- 37
16. 111--- 29
15. 868--- 6
14. 1477--- 49
13. 359--- 16
12. 148--- 46
11. 67--- 32
10. 610--- 38
9. 1717--- 17
8. 33--- 10
7. 469--- 4
6. 987--- 3
5. 118--- 5
4. 254--- 23
3. 1986--- 7
2. 2056--- 1
1. 1114--- 2


And since this team was discussed, 1983's OPR is #95.

Re: [FRCTop25.com] Final Rankings Show!
 

Especially in this year. Years like 2011 are easy in a sense that you can base who is number 1 by total tubes scored/fastest minibot. This season has brought forth a huge dynamic of playing the game with ground pick, autonomous 5 & 7 discs, full court shooting, fast cycles to the human player, quick 10 point hang, quick 30 point hang, 50 point dump, etc. All of which have proven effective strategies for winning regionals but its hard to say what is the number one strategy or number one robot for that matter when everyone brings something different to the table!

I love when people gripe about not being in the top 25 or their rank in the top 25. Its the top 25 of 2500+ robots. Even making it into the top 30-40 is huge!

Re: [FRCTop25.com] Final Rankings Show!
 

It's amazing to here feedback like this. Our team has worked hard for 10 years and have come 2nd countless times. As a senior member of team 1310, I've gone through 5 finals against 1114 and 2056 (to lose them all). However, both teams we view as role models and the push us and other Canadian teams to excellence. This year we finally pulled through to advance to the Championships (first time in team history), with help from the wild card and our Waterloo eliminations alliance(610 and 3756).
This year in particular, our team has definitely stepped up our game. Without the help from teachers(due to the Ontario Teachers Work Action), we have relied on the support of our principal and mentors. This has been our most successful season by far and it's not over yet.

If you haven't heard of our team here's a couple of links:
http://watchfirstnow.com/archive3.php?id=62514775
http://watchfirstnow.com/archive3.php?id=62472036
http://watchfirstnow.com/archive3.php?id=63000921
https://www.facebook.com/Team1310?fref=ts
www.runnymederobotics.com

See everyone in St. Louis!!!
Thanks again Mr. Lim!!!

Re: [FRCTop25.com] Final Rankings Show!
 

For reference's sake, here's a comparison between their Max OPR Rank and their FRCTop25 rank:

Top 25---- Max OPR Rank (Average OPR Rank)

25. 1334--- 22 (50)
24. 2169--- 19 (8)
23. 624--- 7 (24)
22. 1806--- 24 (12)
21. 11---- 46 (21)
20. 1718--- 45 (39)
19. 2590--- 9 (18)
18. 341--- 284 (266)
17. 1310--- 65 (37)
16. 111--- 21 (29)
15. 868--- 10 (6)
14. 1477--- 11 (49)
13. 359--- 18 (16)
12. 148--- 20 (46)
11. 67--- 15 (32)
10. 610--- 33 (38)
9. 1717--- 6 (17)
8. 33--- 16 (10)
7. 469--- 3 (4)
6. 987--- 4 (3)
5. 118--- 5 (5)
4. 254--- 13 (23)
3. 1986--- 8 (7)
2. 2056--- 2 (1)
1. 1114--- 1 (2)

Max OPR reference: http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...7&postcount=65

Re: [FRCTop25.com] Final Rankings Show!
 

I guess I need to make a comment. I really appreciate the show. I know it takes time and effort to do it and dedication to FIRST so thank you Mike and Justin for doing it. We had great fun last year with you after the little misspelling incident. :)

Our team was blessed this year to have great students, great mentors, great alumni, and GREAT alliance partners. We learned a lot from competing. It has been wonderful to see our kids inspired.

Top 25 is fun. I learn about teams I never have seen. Last year I was amazed with some of those teams at CMP. Let's keep it fun. Vote if you wish. Watch the show by all means. Be proud of your teams!!

Banners and rankings are not why we do this. Inspiration is.

You all inspire me ... Even after more than a decade of FIRST...

We will see you all in a couple of weeks and renew our friendships and
"Compete like crazy".

Good luck on the field!!!!

Re: [FRCTop25.com] Final Rankings Show!
 

1983 does quite a bit better in this regard:
1983--- 25 (95)


But that uses week five data, not week six.
Edit: My mistake, it uses week six data. I assumed it used week 5 because it was posted in the week 5 OPR thread.

Re: [FRCTop25.com] Final Rankings Show!
 

Mike and Justin, I appreciate all the time and effort put into a very entertaining show. FRC Top 25 is great fun!

Jack, I've seen your team play. You are scary good. Hope to play WITH you in St Louis.

Re: [FRCTop25.com] Final Rankings Show!
 

Thanks for voting to change that.... oh wait... you didn't. How can you complain that the rankings are garbage when you don't vote yourself?! Who knows what your vote could have done to the rankings. "Be the change you want to see in the world..."


Justin and I have never claimed that these rankings are anywhere close to official. We have always said, the more voters, the more evened out it will be. We do this for fun; a way to talk robotics throughout the week, a time to share with other FIRST addicts, a way to laugh and have fun on a Wednesday night. The rankings are secondary to all of that.

But in other news. Thank you for all of the support guys. We can't tell you how much we appreciate all the support and love. It means more than you will ever know. Thanks for giving us a reason to keep going.

Re: [FRCTop25.com] Final Rankings Show!
 

Somehow, I don't see this making the rankings more insightful. For the same reasons we hold Looking Forward posts and the like above normal chatter.

Re: [FRCTop25.com] Final Rankings Show!
 

More voters would imply more voters from across the country. Maybe the reason why 1983 wasn't in the top 25 was because there's not too many voters in the Pacific Northwest. Maybe why Southeastern US teams didn't get many votes was because of the same reason. People tend to vote based on the teams they've seen. Maybe a Northeatern voter hasn't watched must westcoast events. Maybe our voters are Michigan/MAR heavy. Who knows.
I know I'm not making much sense, but the logic is there. The more voters the better.

Re: [FRCTop25.com] Final Rankings Show!
 

I did vote... In the coaches poll... and that was cancelled.

I love the concept of the show, my fault is with the voting process. Even if everyone informed votes, they will be drowned out tenfold by the rest of chiefdelphi. This was very evident in the 2011 rankings comparing the public vs. coaches poll.

Re: [FRCTop25.com] Final Rankings Show!
 

Considering there are probably under 100 voters, by your standards there are only 10 informed people in all of FRC? Nice.

Re: [FRCTop25.com] Final Rankings Show!
 

You love the concept of the show yet you complain it's a bunch of uninformed voting. Sounds to me like you don't like the concept at all. It's one of the biggest problems with democracy, the uninformed are equal to the informed.

Disclaimer — I agree which is why I don't even pay much attention to where I rank/don't rank.

Re: [FRCTop25.com] Final Rankings Show!
 

Hey I just wanted to let everyone know I disagree with the voting system for a peer poll that has no real impact and is just for fun, and because of this I'm pretty sure the teams I work on just aren't going to enter robots next year. Anyone else want to join in? Protest! Protest!

Or we could wait for cooler heads to prevail. This is all just... I just can't... sigh.

Re: [FRCTop25.com] Final Rankings Show!
 

BUT ROWBOATS IS SERIOUS BUSINESS! /s

Re: [FRCTop25.com] Final Rankings Show!
 

Occupy ? ? ? ? Where? ;) :D Get rowdy in chat and you'll simply get banned. :rolleyes: :eek:

Re: [FRCTop25.com] Final Rankings Show!
 

I like the concept of a top 25 show. I disagree with how the top25 are ranked. Not sure where the confusion lies.

You're also putting words in my mouth; uninformed does not imply morons.

Re: [FRCTop25.com] Final Rankings Show!
 

You're right, I added the words morons because I was thinking it. My apologies. I'll edit the post.

So you like he idea of a Top25 but not the idea of the uninformed voting on it. How would you suggest ranking them? Numeric methods probably won't work due to differences in regional strengths. Finding a group of "informed" won't work since there's no real defined qualification.

Re: [FRCTop25.com] Final Rankings Show!
 

In 2011 a coaches poll was run side by side with the public poll. I forget who all the coaches were, but this concept worked and both top 25's were displayed.

It'd also be awesome to implement a pure statistical top25 w/ FIM style points that are standardized to cover different # of matches played.

If a public, coach, and statistical ranking were done, a combined ranking of the three could also be done.

Re: [FRCTop25.com] Final Rankings Show!
 

Tell ya what, let's make that happen.

Mike/Justin, any chance you could contact the folks you had doing the voting in 2011 and collect lists from them? (or pass the list my way and I'll do it)

I'll have the TwentyFour guys work up a FiM style point list, an OPR, and a CCWM list. (Yes Drost, that means you too)

Let's see how they all come out, I'm curious.

Re: [FRCTop25.com] Final Rankings Show!
 

In CFB they just take the ranking from the three systems and average it then use that as your rank.

With the coaches poll in CFB they try to get a wide sampling of coaches from different parts of the country, different skill levels, different play styles etc to get a good sample. This is probably best for FRC too because a lot of coaches don't have enough time to watch every team in every region, but they will tend to chart their own region well and you'll get a relative comparison with more well known teams

The data portion seems pretty easy to do with the provided twitter data and someone entering awards.

Re: [FRCTop25.com] Final Rankings Show!
 

You didn't vote this week which in turn gives you no right to complain about how the votes turned out this week. That is like complaining that we picked the wrong president but you didn't vote. If you give up your right/ ability to vote you also give up your right to complain about it.

The problem with the coaches polls are that these "experts" can't be experts every week some weeks their competing other weeks their working at their own jobs. Its just as hard for them to see all the teams compete as it is anyone else. Many times the coaches polls were skewed based on what regional they were at and what teams they saw play.

This wouldn't make them more insight full never has the claim been made that these top 25 should top your pick list. Its just a voter generated list of some teams that are playing this years game really really good. If you have some time to look at these teams we could all learn something from them.

More voters would help to balance out the regional bias. If we currently have 70% of the votes coming for the east coast, more overall voters would result in more people from the west coast or any other region. This would help to remove these "favorite" regions. Everyone is mentioning these "regional bias" but most people are failing to mention that Texas has the second most teams in the Top 25, and there are no NE teams.

Ranking teams based on performance numbers is easy to do, it takes some work to general all the necessary data but after that all you have to do is sort the teams. The point of the show is for fun, its just a fun ranking that isn't just a set of numbers read off a spreadsheet. Sure we could use OPR but i think everyone would agree that if we had done this last year the Top25 would have been really skewed.

Re: [FRCTop25.com] Final Rankings Show!
 

The reason why we stopped this was because the "coaches" simply stopped participating. By week 3 we were getting nearly 100 voters for the public poll and 3 -5 for the "coaches" poll. We started with over a dozen coaches. Which one was a better representation of the Top 25 teams according to the FIRST community? The public poll. Simple as that. And that's the model we're going to continue using.

I'm fine with people not taking the rankings seriously. Mike already stated the reason why we do the show is to bring the FIRST community together every week throughout the competition season. The rankings are secondary and merely give us a format for the show.

The BCS in college football is a computer generated model taking into account a number of factors. There are always people who complain about it's inaccuracies. People complain about the coaches poll in college sports. People complain about the media poll in college sports.

Anytime you try and "rank" anything, people will complain and try to knock it's credibility just because they have a different opinion. It is IMPOSSIBLE to rank over 2000 teams with a high degree of accuracy. That's why we have always claimed it was for fun and not to take it too seriously. All we ask is that you vote. If you don't want to vote that's fine, we'll have fun doing the show with or without you.

Re: [FRCTop25.com] Final Rankings Show!
 

It really doesn't matter what the rankings are- they could be ranking cereals for all I care (Oh wait they did that :P ). As long as they're bringing the FIRST community together, what the rankings are don't really matter. That being said, the rankings do help to bring to viewer's attentions some great teams and robots that don't normally get much recognition- like 4451 and 2791 who each had stellar performances at their regionals, but didn't carry much notice like the big names did.

Re: [FRCTop25.com] Final Rankings Show!
 

Let me preface this with you guys at FRCTop25 do an amazing job. I have voted in the past and stopped because I have a huge bias towards Michigan. I see the show as an opportunity for lesser known teams from the area to get some much needed PR on the world stage, and therefore rank the big ones (like 1114) low. I stopped when I learned how few voters there were and didnt want my agenda to influence things that much.

Personally I think the reason you are seeing so many people knocking the voting is because the show is currently the most visual, highest audience show about FIRST around. You guys are leading the charge in a whole new avenue for FIRST; many people don't want that to be deluded by "inaccurate" rankings. Is there anything wrong with what you guys currently do, no, but what the majority of people's perception is the best teams will make the list. You are being viewed as a some-what official source, like looking forward is, for who is good. No matter how much you guys say it is just for fun, people have built it up so much in their minds that the show has taken on a whole new meaning.

IMHO the best course of action is to show/say how many voters there were that week and where the majority of voters are from to get rid of the regional bias (whether it exists or not) that people see. This will also show viewers that their votes count.

Your audience is a huge group of nerds, they like numbers and statistics. As the show grows comparing the numbers and the votes could be a nice feature, but should never be the cornerstone. Way to dry and one dimensional.

You guys are providing an amazing service for the FRC community in an area that is in its infancy. If you arnt recognized for being responsible for putting entertainment value on a primarily education based competition, then it's a criminal offense.

Re: [FRCTop25.com] Final Rankings Show!
 

The BCS is only bad when either you aren't in the top 25 or your main rival is ;)

Re: [FRCTop25.com] Final Rankings Show!
 

You mistook my rant about democracy in general for saying your rankings were crap. Your rankings tell us which robots captured public imagination, it shows which robots are inspiring people. This is pretty cool actually. What I'd like to know is what inspires people the same as a group of seasoned veterans are inspired by? Is it limited to teams that have had success on the field? Is it biased based on region? Week played? Event? What makes them inspirational?

Our job is to inspire. My goal is to try to determine what makes these robots inspirational.

Re: [FRCTop25.com] Final Rankings Show!
 

Additionally, here's pretty much the same thing, but with CCWM instead of OPR.
Source.

Also, I think there is an error in the data for 341 and 1310. Those numbers just don't make sense (average > max).

Re: [FRCTop25.com] Final Rankings Show!
 

Way to steal exactly what I told you two hours ago.