All District FIRST?
 

Hey CD,

I've been thinking about the future of FIRST, which appears to be an all district format. What I'm not sure about is how the districts would be divided. There are some obvious areas that would be separated from others (New England, California, Canada) but some areas where the lines of division are less obvious. So what do you think all the divisions will be in the future, and what states/countries will be in each district?

Thanks! Jay

Re: All District FIRST?
 

When FIRST gets to that critical mass point, I see it looking like this: 50 state districts, 6 Canadian Districts, 1 Mexican District, 1 Israeli District, 1 Oceanic District, and probably a few more unknown districts(atleast unkown for now).

And then you would have like a West Region Championship, Northwest Region Championship, Great Plains Region Championship, Southwest Region Championship, Great Lakes Region Championship, Mid-Atlantic Championship, Southeast Championship, Mid-America Championship(States between Southeast, Great Lakes, and Mid-Atlantic), Northeast Region Championship West Canada Region Championship, East Canada Region Championship, Oceanic Region Championship, Mexico Regional Championship, Israel Region Championship, unknown Region Champs.

Then, all those would feed into the World Champs just like hwo FiM and MAR do now. This major team growth would also make champs grow to 8 Divisions and possibly 640-720 teams total or 80-90 teams per division.

That, to me, is FIRST in like 20-30 years.

Re: All District FIRST?
 

This is a wonderful concept, but wouldn't be very balanced. For example, states like California, Texas or New York have a very large number of teams (and people) compared to the more rural areas of the country. This already puts big limits on certain areas (Idaho just recently surpassed the number of teams needed to host one regional, and hasn't yet been able to plan one), and would only be harder to work into a district system. States with large numbers of teams (Like Michigan, who pioneered the district system) could feasibly convert to districts in the near future, but aside from the densely populated areas of the country, I doubt we'll be seeing districts as a widespread FIRST system any time soon.

Re: All District FIRST?
 

Not soon, no; but when the teams per area gets to a high enough quantity it will. So, as FIRST moves toward the complete district system, some states will become left out for a little bit as more and more join the district brotherhood.

Re: All District FIRST?
 

When that happens (Which will be really amazing for FIRST), do you think that some states may need to be further divided, or will their Championships send more teams to Worlds?

Re: All District FIRST?
 

Where do you think the next few district areas will be?

Re: All District FIRST?
 

Sounds like a compromise would need to be made.

Re: All District FIRST?
 

I dont think states themselves will be parted off. I think having it states as a whole would be better. I think at first, the regions will send different amounts of teams to Worlds depending on the size of the team in the state. But after a while FIRST will have to designate a specific number across the board for each Region Championship; by that I mean an equal number for each Region.

Re: All District FIRST?
 

Minnestoa, then California, then the Northeast, then Texas, than Northwest. After that, I have no idea. lol

Re: All District FIRST?
 

I like your vision for growth, but I don't think we'll ever be organized quite that way. Two main reasons:
1. Take Montana. The population density makes it unlikely that they'll ever have enough teams to make a stand-alone district. But even if they do, they'll never have as many teams as Michigan or California or Ontario (or even Missouri), so the districts will be very unbalanced if organized by state & province.
2. Take Missouri. FRC teams are concentrated around Kansas City & St. Louis; this has lead to some very natural relationships/rivalries with teams in Kansas & Illinois, respectively. Teams cross the state to go to the "other" regional (expect like this year, when both GKC & STL were week 3 :() but the majority of the relationships are with the teams in the other states. It'd be nice to keep some of that.

I'm not saying us on the MO side of GKC can't, or won't, be able to recover from not seeing the KS teams, but we really wouldn't want to (I don't think, anyway; this isn't a discussion I've had with other teams in the area). However the district boundaries are drawn, they have to keep this in mind.

I don't think it's as simple as letting teams attend events in other districts; you set up a potential issue with how points are earned towards the District Championship. Maybe those rivalries just transfer to the "super district" or "regional" championships, but that just doesn't feel right to me. I don't have a good answer -- I've thought about this, but no where near enough -- but it's one of many questions that are going to have to be addressed.

Re: All District FIRST?
 

I know there is a thread floating around that discusses this, but who likes thread revivals anyway? :D

My personal opinion is there is no way to divide all of FRC into regions unless there is explosive growth in certain areas, which I don't see happening anytime soon. Eventually enough areas will be "sectioned off" into the islands that the current district models have that travel for many teams/volunteers, who are left out, will be insane. At this point everyone will go to a points based system and the points will be used for championship spots. In this scenario there would be no "state" championships or borders because how could you divide those in less team/volunteer dense areas into regions without crazy travel? The issue with this is awards like chairman's and EI.

Any model for the current island type district areas would have to have fluid borders so you don't get things like the Western U.P. in Michigan competing in the L.P. when Wisconsin/Minnesota is quite a bit closer.

Eventually I can see something like little league baseball does, but that is way down the road.

Re: All District FIRST?
 

Why do we need to draw lines at all? If the regular season has a couple of destination regionals which allow a one competition shot at the championship for teams that for whatever reason cannot handle the district system (most obviously because of location), the rest can all be districts. Any team may attend any district event and earn points there. Then we host a number of championships. Everyone globally who is over a certain points threshold qualifies for the intermediate championship stage and they register for the championship of their choice, preference would be given to local teams, but there would be a little wiggle room so most everyone could select a championship of their choice. Those qualified from the regionals and the championships go to worlds.

Re: All District FIRST?
 

I personally like the current regional system, it's cool to be able to go to other distance places to compete, and with a district system in all 50 states it would get rather confusing.

Re: All District FIRST?
 

As long as all district events play the same number of matches per team, under the same game rules, there is no reason points wouldn't be able to transfer between regions.

An original intent of district events in Michigan was to open extra spots at events (after each team had registered for their 2) to outside teams, this was not allowed. Later, when MAR was formed, both sides (FiM and MAR) wanted to allow teams to go to districts in the other region, this was not allowed either. However, as MAR events are extremely similar to FiM events (same number of matches per team), there would be no reason (from the point system and rankings perspective) to prevent an FiM or MAR team from attending the other region's event and receiving points. Even if FiM and MAR used different point values in their point systems, it would be extremely easy to apply the FiM points to a MAR event for an FiM team attending a MAR event to be properly ranked in the FiM rankings (the same goes for a MAR team attending an FiM event).

Re: All District FIRST?
 

Indiana is hopefully going to the district model either this year or next gonna be interesting

Re: All District FIRST?
 

Or maybe you do like randomized groups at the beginning of the year with every team in FIRST. Then, after you are put into a group, you play through a normal year of FIRST accumulating points like in a district but not from anywhere specifically, just from where you compete. And then at the end of the regular season, the top X teams from each group go to Worlds. Like say 1592, 1986, 1983, 175 could all end up in the same group(there would be more than 4 but those are the 4 that came to mind first) but 1592 plays at Orlando, 1986 at GKC, 1983 at Spokane, and 175 at Boston; say they all win the regional undefeated, then each team would have the same number of "group points" towards getting that slot at Worlds.

Re: All District FIRST?
 

Interesting. I'm not sure I like competing for a slot at CMP with teams I'll never see, but I'm not going to dismiss it out of hand just because of that. Having teams in different groups competing at the same event would make for some really "interesting" politics. Possibly even more interesting than what already goes on. :rolleyes:

Re: All District FIRST?
 

Im curious as to why you think that? The thought process behind that, was that this formula for making it to Worlds would put all the burden on your team's ability to play the game and understand the alliance selection to allow you to play the game to the best of your ability.This would almost entirely erase the feeling teams will have about competing in the elimination with teams that arelady own a slot at Worlds. In this setup, every match you play alters not only your chance of making it but pretty much every other team in FIRST. This allows for each team to quantify each match to an even greater magnitude.

Re: All District FIRST?
 

I pulled the below division off the NEFIRST blog. I believe this was done a few years ago so things will probably change but it at leasts let you see some ideas of how districts could be divided.

Re: All District FIRST?
 

That's a VERY cool way of doing it, thanks for sharing!

Re: All District FIRST?
 

Because it's fun to have direct interaction with a team with whom you're competing. It's fun to have long-standing relationships with those teams as well; if we randomly select groups every year those will constantly shift.

I'm not saying it's a bad idea, and neither of my "fun" reasons are terribly significant. I do wonder about the size of the groups; you're probably always going to end up with teams in your group at the same regional. So you could still be competing with teams that have already qualified, and now the competition is on two levels -- within the group, and for the blue banner at that event. Have you thought about those kind of interactions?

Remember, I said "...I'm not sure I like...." ;) I'm putting an emphasis on uncertainty, and I'm interested in the idea.

How many groups do you think this needs?

Re: All District FIRST?
 

I went to a meeting at our regional this year about Districts, *hat tip* to the visitors from MAR who also attended and gave some personal insight.

The National Capital Area is currently looking at the district model but we were told it would be 2015 at the earliest. For reference this district could absorb 3 Regional Events (DC/Chesapeake/Virginia).

Given the proximity between MAR and the parts of the possible National Capital Area the idea of playing across district lines surfaces again.

At that meeting coaches were very divided on their initial perceptions of going to the district model so it may be an interesting ride.

Re: All District FIRST?
 

It appears New England will be going district/"conference" next year. California, Minnesota, the National Capital regional (Maryland, DC, Virginia), Canada/Ontario, and some combinations of Midwest states (Illinois + Indiana + Ohio? + Wisconsin?) may switch the year after that. Representatives from Minnesota and the National Capital region have attended MAR events over the past two years, to get a feel for events and what teams think of them.

Re: All District FIRST?
 

Southeast Region.....
Let's just change that to the Southeastern Conference, aka, the SEC.

It fits us better. ;)

Re: All District FIRST?
 

We need a lot more teams before it can work down here. Florida needs over 150, Georgia would need over 100, South Carolina would need over 80 and Alabama would need over 70 and even then Alabama might have to be split up into 2 different regions.

Re: All District FIRST?
 

Actually, when Florida hits the 150 team mark, we could have our own district system.

Re: All District FIRST?
 

The topic of districts in the National Capital Region sure seems to be a lot more complex than I imagined. At the Virginia Regional, there was a lot of animosity from groups of people who liked keeping the format unchanged in Virginia. There are solid reasons for this: 5 of the 6 teams who qualified for Championships out of the Virginia Regional only attended the Virginia Regional. VirginiaFIRST and the Virginia Regional are the second oldest 501c3 and event pair, only behind the FIRST in Michigan and Great Lakes Regional, which is now the Michigan State Championship. Still, it is important to note that some teams in Virginia, including <1000 level teams, do not think they can sustain having to pay double to get into CMP. 422 has provided financial assistance to teams in our area just to get them a bus to St. Louis.

However, my issue with maintaining the status quo in our region is that by not acting as soon as possible to make this change to the competition structure in the area, we are actively hampering the progress of the program. In Virginia this year, teams only played 8 qualification matches. If you didn't make eliminations and were a veteran team, you essentially forked out $625/match, which is something people at the Virginia meeting seemed to be apprehensive to accept as something bad.

At the Washington, DC Regional, which is common ground for teams all over Virginia, Maryland, and the district, there was near-unanimous approval at the meeting, citing the low costs, equal or fewer days out of school/work, and in general, a remarkable return on investment. Why that message did not come across well to some Virginia teams remains a disappointing mystery to me. There is money for teams in the states and district if they just go look for it.
----
Back on the topic at hand
----
If the National Capital Region is to switch over to districts by the 2015 season (which I still expect), there will be an interesting situation where pretty much the entirety of the northeast will be in the district system. They could theoretically all play under the same point system but have some restrictions (the limit on how you can submit for DCA, and you can only attend your local championship), but the whole area could serve as a test-bed for inter-district play.

Re: All District FIRST?
 

I don't see how you think 150 teams is a magic number. Michigan started around 120 teams, MAR started at around 100, and I think NEFIRST will start at around 160.

The district system is a totally scalable model. If Hawaii wanted to move all of its 3 dozen or so teams over to a district model, it's fine. It works better when you "combine" regionals like Philly and NJ into MAR, DC, Chesapeake, and VA into the NCR, and Florida could fold in Orlando and South Florida into its own district system, play with 72-80 teams, and it would still work. Michigan's first year of districts also had nearly the same team density as Florida does right now.

Re: All District FIRST?
 

I used the same team per square mile that FiM and MAR used which came to 150 for Florida. Florida right now has 76 teams spread out over pretty much the entire state with a lot of bald spots within the state. Once those areas get populated, the district model will most likely be applicable.

Re: All District FIRST?
 

Michigan Team Count in 2009: 132
Area of State: 96,716 sq miles

Team Density: .13%

Florida Team Count in 2013: 72
Area of State: 58,560 sq miles

Team Density: .12%

Re: All District FIRST?
 

The land area of Michigan is 56,803 sq miles according to the state Government. The 96,716 area includes Lake Michigan, and there are very few teams based there...

...until next year's water game!

Re: All District FIRST?
 

132>76. How is that so hard to understand? More teams is needed to have more events in more areas. Right now you'd have like 3 in Orlando, 2 in Tampa, and like 3 in the Miami area. That's not how you want the districts spread out over the state.

Re: All District FIRST?
 

I would agree, right now there just isn't enough team density in the major areas and they are too spread out to have 4 district events.

On the other hand I would like to see Florida move towards district sooner rather than later. Here are my thoughts on the system and its future: http://nop-jepblog.blogspot.com/2013...ct-system.html

Re: All District FIRST?
 

Michigan is mostly clustered around Detroit.

Re: All District FIRST?
 

I like your thoughts, just wanted to point out a couple of things. NE doesn't want to have 2 simultaneous championships, they just want 2 fields at the championship, to accomodate 80-100 teams. Also, teams in Michigan don't qualify just based on the championship, points earned during district events count for 40% and points earned during the championship count for 60% in determining who qualifies for Worlds.

Re: All District FIRST?
 

How about if FIRST implements districts similar to the current regional system: Any team can sign up for any district, even ones outside their local area. However, if a team qualifies to advance in any district, they must go to that district's regional. Regionals are set up as a second level in between districts and Championships.

Re: All District FIRST?
 

I have a theory about why the receptions at DC and VA meetings went very differently. In the proposed NCA there is the potential for some teams to have the same travel issues that the Upper Peninsula teams of FiM have.

Looking at the teams that registered this year for the events and assuming they had a mentor at the meetings there is a significant disparity in the number of teams that will be within say 100 miles of two or more proposed district events. For those teams I can see travel being a significant issue as they are generally located at one end of the proposed district border and it is possible that a non district event would be closer than any "non home" district would be.

Re: All District FIRST?
 

As more teams in specific areas move to a District model, we find ourselves (and other non-district teams) stuck with less choices for attending regionals across the globe.
Quite honestly, that sucks for the rest of us.
If at some point, we can only compete in Hawaii, then its time for another program.
Hawaii will never move to a district model because the cost is horrendous and a logistical nightmare between islands.
With the expansion of more teams west of Hawaii emerging, it'll be interesting to see how the Pan Pacific plays in all of this.

Re: All District FIRST?
 

But wouldn't the NE champs have to be separate because for teams to play on both fields they would have to change their wpa key for each field. (I could be wrong since I'm a mechanical guy and don't know much about networking)

Re: All District FIRST?
 

In response to Joe:
Yes, buts that also because you have probably more than half of the FiM teams within a few hours travel distance of those events; which allows for multiple of those events at the same time. You could no do that in Florida. Take Central Florida teams for example, if you dont have a Central Florida regional atleast once a week, its almost a travel regional to anywhere else in the state; unless you just want to have the same teams competing against each other every single week. From Brevard County to Jacksonville or Miami is 2-4 hours one way. That would mean getting hotels for a North Florida District or a South Florida District. When the areas between the Georgia border and Orlando are filled in along with Miami to Orlando, then you can gain those easily attendable district events. Looking towards a Florida District system, I think there would have to be events in: Orlando, Tampa, Melbourne, Daytona, Tallahassee, Gainesville, Miami, Boca Raton, Pensacola. That would see pretty evenly distributed and all near areas that would get the most team growth.

Re: All District FIRST?
 

I am sincerely hoping that as we move to more bordering district regions, that FIRST helps us all figure out how to do the interdistrict play... but to do that, the points systems very likely have to be the same (or have some weird thing like the points don't count for your out of district play). There have been plenty of discussions around this, but I think so far FIRST has been against it. I think if more regions start to push for it, and as more Districts form up, I think it will be time to try and figure out how to do this effectively, as what has made so much of FIRST great is meeting teams from other places and finding out more about different regions. I really hope that we find a way to make all of that work.

Re: All District FIRST?
 

Neither Michigan nor MAR have ideal team or district desnities. Nowhere does. There are always going to be teams who have to travel further or stay overnight to compete. The most flagrant example would be the Upper Peninsula of Michigan, which lacks the team density for its own district and is at least 3 hours from the nearest district and about 5 from the next closest. The district model is not the best solution for 100% of teams, but it does help the majority of teams compete more at less expense.

Ultimately, I think the simplest solution is to not have borders at all. Simply register for whatever districts you chose, just like you would with regionals currently. Then your points earned count towards your assigned region championship. I don't even think the points system would even really have to be the same, you simply earn them based on your region's point system.

That being said, I would like a standardized point system. Preferably the FiM/MAR system (with the RAS difference resolved), as I don't really like the proposed NE system.

Re: All District FIRST?
 

I wasnt saying that it was good/bad for particular teams but for the areas with high density teams going to events outside their respective areas. With the high density team areas, there just isnt enough teams in those areas to supports singular district events, let alone multiple in the vicinity;

Re: All District FIRST?
 

Here's what Michigan looked like in 2008, the last year before Districts. No where could support a single event, with the exception of Detroit. It doesn't look significantly different then Florida does now, with the exception that Detroit has more teams then any single area of Florida does now.

Re: All District FIRST?
 

Nothing that specific has been released yet, but I think that could be worked around. Having 2 divisions would probably be one way around it. I don't know much about this, but I would think there is some plausible way to have teams play qualification matches on 2 different fields.

Re: All District FIRST?
 

Borderless districts (in my mind) should already be a given at some point in FIRST's future. The way I see it, you play at the district closest to you (auto-assigned), and another district of your choosing, anywhere.

The only real question mark I have is if multiple local Championships (i.e. state championships) are equidistant to your team (ex. a team in Iowa w/ state champs in Minn/Kansas/Missouri), how do you or FIRST decide which state championship you would be assigned to.
If it's team choice, could a Minn team participate in a Wisc state champ, or a UP team compete in a Minn St Champ? Could teams change st. champ assignment year-to-year? If it's FIRST assigned, how would they determine what states to group together exactly, and would these grouping fluctuate year-to-year depending on FIRST growth?

Re: All District FIRST?
 

Two problems with this theory:
Most international teams that aren't Israeli don't have the possibility to attend more than event (sometimes including the championship). Israelis usually can't compete outside except CMP, but that's less of a problem because we have our own regional.

Another problem is it'll be really hard to move Israel to districts. There aren't enough venues that can hold events of that magnitude. In fact, I can only think of two or three places, and it'll be hard to get these places to have the events (moneywise and schedulewise). In addition, Israel has about 50 teams, and for districts to have a point you'd need at-least 100 teams, and I don't believe Israel can hold that number of teams.

Re: All District FIRST?
 

Its about 5 hours from Houghton to Traverse city, its about 7 hours to Flint... a bit more than you think for the western UP... For reference Duluth is 4 hours away.

Michigan has a weird tendency to be divided in half... west vs east. There are way more eastern teams than west so many eastern teams travel to the west side of the state. The west side teams tend to stay on the west coast. It really wouldn't be much different in Florida.

Districts are going to be horrendous for international teams any way you slice it...

Re: All District FIRST?
 

There are a few things to consider when talking about a district system in Florida.

First, currently there are only 72 teams from Florida (FIRST site lists a few that never competed this season). Also, 3 of these teams competed exclusively at Bayou, so I assume they are panhandle teams that would not fall under the district system until there is more growth in that area. Therefore, this season we had 69 teams.

We also have 3 major pockets of team distribution: miami/orlando/tampa, with greater orlando being the big one. The ideal situation is what mike described above, but that's far far away.

Another consideration is the teams that come from international venues, specifically the DR teams (2 now, and I bet you they're growing a strong program out there since 4091 won RAS last year and EI this year).

The other consideration is the Championship. Orlando is usually week 2-3 because of UCF's spring break. If we switched to a championship, I don't know about getting UCF.


That being said, here are my thoughts. If we were to have 80 teams next year, we could fill four district events, one in each "hub" and a fourth, at a neutral location. (Maybe Ft. Myers, which is 1.5-3 hours from each of the hubs?) This would give most teams (not all) a "home" event and a far event. As growth occurs, districts could be added in north florida, melbourne and greater miami areas. Disclaimer: This is not perfect by any means, and I know nothing will happen next year. Just my thoughts as to how it could possibly be structured if we were to "take the plunge" next year. Merely food for thought.

All in all, I don't think we're ready yet, and I don't know if we'll ever be. But I do think once we make the transition, growth will speed up in the areas of the districts. Sort of a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Sorry that this thread is slightly de-railed

Re: All District FIRST?
 

I'm one of the only people that has attended/volunteered at both a MAR and Michigan district events. There are awesome things about districts, and there is also a lot left to be desired. I also have extensive experience with off season events, which districts are actually modeled after.

1) I'm not entirely a fan of districts in the first place. I'm not a fan of the current district model.

I'm a big fan of the extra cost associated with a full regional, the bigger venues, professional Event Managers, professional AV staff, the professional grade radios, the overall show aspect, there are a lot more details that go into an event than just putting up a field and having tables for a pit. I know MAR is starting to learn this and has started purchasing more AV equipment, but that's not everything. If you leave a regional after working it for 4 days and you had a professional team with all the right resources, life is so much easier/less frustrating.

2) The amount of stress that districts put on the core volunteer group is grossly underestimated.

I think that every team participating in a district model should be required to donate a volunteer for each event they attend. Key volunteer experience and quality is... KEY, districts are getting there, but having an MC half as good as Blair or Mark is next to impossible. You are lucky in districts if you have 4 people out of the 12 key volunteers (Event Chair, Event Manager, Volunteer Coordinator, FTA, Field Supervisor, Lead Queuer, Lead Robot Inspector, Head Ref, MC, Game Announcer, Scorekeeper, Lead CSA, Pit Admin) have experience in similar roles at events greater than 3 years. It really takes about that long to become a well rounded, quality volunteer.

If you are in a potential/already district area, start volunteering! Not all of us have enough vacation days to go around!

3) There needs to be a way that international/isolated teams can interact/play.

4) Intra-district play needs to happen.

5) The super regional idea is the coolest thing in FRC's future.
It is starting to resemble the other March Madness...

Re: All District FIRST?
 

I think we would just keep UCF as a district event and possibly grab the Amway Center as the FSC. But seeing as the history had with Florida, FIRST, and UCF, I could totally see UCF reserving the arena for the FSC.

Re: All District FIRST?
 

I would love the FSC to be at UCF, there's just a lot of history there and it's a great venue. But I guess as long as there are options in Orlando/Central Florida (which is where I'd assume the Championship would have to be), then it's not really a problem, just a consideration.

Re: All District FIRST?
 

1) I believe FiM already does this.

2) Yes, I agree.

Re: All District FIRST?
 

FiM requires 2 volunteers per event from each team

Re: All District FIRST?
 

Really? What happens if you have a small team and cannot give up 2 people to volunteer?

Re: All District FIRST?
 

It doesn't have to be at an event you're competing at.

For instance, this year I volunteered at a district my team usually competes at that we didn't go to.

Re: All District FIRST?
 

Perhaps having teams declare what District they will participate in at registration would make this work. You automatically have to attend 1 District event for whichever District you select and should you qualify at the end of the season that would be the District Championship you would attend. 2nd (and 3rd and 4th) District events could be in any District and you would accumulate points there via whatever point sharing system is decided on. As an example suppose you have two teams in Iowa, one in the northern part of the state and one in the southern. One declares as part of the Wisconsin/Minnesota (WM) District while the other is part of the Iowa/Nebraska/Kansas/Missouri (INKM) District. Both can attend the Minneapolis (WM) and Kansas City (INKM) District events (the 2 closest events to both teams) but the northern team can attend the WM championship in Minneapolis while the southern team can attend the INKM championship in St. Louis, which are the respectively closer District Championships for both teams.

This also allows for teams in far flung places that aren't likely to ever have more than 1 event (Hawaii, Alaska, Puerto Rico) to always attend their local event regardless of what District they decide on that year.

I'm in favor of letting teams declare their own District, then they can change Districts if new events are created closer by or the District Championship moves. For the far flung teams they can travel and see a bit of the country this way too :)

I think there has to be a requirement that a team attend 1 District event within a District to be eligible for that District's Championship. Otherwise there is the possibility of teams gaming the system by attending weaker events in one District (say MAR) to gain eligibility for another District's Championship (say FiM) without ever having to compete against the teams from that District prior to the Championship. Since every District Championship should be in a population center that will have a District event as well it's unlikely that a team would have a District Championship close to them but have 2 District events closer to them from a different District.

Re: All District FIRST?
 

Correct. Also they only have to be a volunteer for two days of the event. I have also heard of a few exceptions, teams only providing 1 volunteer, but for all 3 days (Thursday night load-in)

Also they don't have to be team members, parents, brothers and sisters over the age of 14, friends, random people, etc. As long as they fill in that they are from #### team in VIMS the team gets credit. I've heard of a few instances where other teams have loaned people to other teams for this reason.

Re: All District FIRST?
 

You're a big fan of the extra cost? Yes, we like the regionals, but I think many teams would beg to differ here. If I was in charge of a team and you told me I could pay $5000 for a flashy regional, 9 matches and one shot at eliminations, or pay $5000 for 2 events in high school/college gyms, 24 matches and 2 shots at eliminations, I'd pick the latter in a heartbeat. Money aside, as a student, I would have loved to be able to attend one, let alone 2 regular season events with 40 or less teams, something I've never done. The spectacle isn't everything.

By today's prices, a complete season(making it to World's) in a district system would cost $17,000 in registration alone. Even if the prices go down, the cost of travel could reach thousands per student on many teams. We need to be lowering the entry barrier into FRC, not raising it.

Re: All District FIRST?
 

This is a FIRST HQ thing. Check out Jim Zondag's white paper. FiM wants states to be free.

Re: All District FIRST?
 

Doesn't matter to the teams, it still costs $17 000.

Re: All District FIRST?
 

Awesome! Those are surprises I love to hear! Hopefully it'll be used in more places in the future, 2 volunteers per team is a good place to start. More key volunteers are what is really needed, and that can't be provided on demand really.

1) Playing matches isn't everything either, especially for the teams that had a rough year with the robot they put on the field.

Playing is not always what inspires everyone, sometimes its the theatrics and production around everything that makes it awe inspiring. The best solution is probably to find a more cost-effective way to bring the theatrics to the district model. I feel overall there was too much of a compromise on cost.

2) If you want to get more funding, the show part really is great for going after money. I've seen prospective sponsors turn into actual sponsors much faster at a Regional than a District. It adds to the awe and gives the whole organization a much more professional face. In particular its helpful for raising funding at the event level, regionals wouldn't cost so much if the events were able to fundraise for themselves better.

I guess the best way to summarize my complaint with the current district model/format/presentation is that it lost too much of the professionalism associated with a regional in order to cut costs of events.

Re: All District FIRST?
 

Could someone please explain the Super Regional idea? I've heard the term before, I'm just not exactly sure what it is or how qualifying would work.

Also, I highly recommend reading that FiM FAQ whitepaper. It actually got me excited about California moving to district competition in the near future!

Re: All District FIRST?
 

My distances were based on the a reasonable "best case scenario," a team traveling from Sault Ste Marie. You're right that it gets even worse (and even closer to Wisconsin/Minnesota) for teams further west.

Depends on how long FIRST requires that. As more areas go district, the pressure to keep the cost relatively equal between regional and district teams goes down. And the chances FIRST allows for a reduced cost/free MSC-type event goes up.

Additionally, MAR has a number of grants they award to teams to help them reach MAR championship. FiM may have a similar program.
http://www.midatlanticrobotics.com/m...application-2/

Re: All District FIRST?
 

The Super Regional is the next step between District Championships and Worlds. Basically when the entire country/world has transitioned to Districts, the concept is there will once again be too many teams for the World Championship, and that they will need another layer of qualification to finally make it to worlds. So a team would potentially play 2 Local District Events, District Championship, Super Regional and World Championship (or 5 events!) in order to win Worlds. FIRST mentions that it is very very very far off in the future, and they aren't even sure if the concept is needed or fully fleshed out.... but its a potential.

And I agree, the whitepaper is incredibly helpful and just like we always say "Read the Manual", anyone who wants to discuss districts should read that white paper, NE's proposal (maybe updated soon?), and the FiM rules supplement.

Re: All District FIRST?
 

Actually, it does matter -- A LOT. The fact that FiM attempts to make the MSC a free event each year is important. As more areas enter the district system and this argument is voiced by more and more people it will eventually happen. Yes it costs $5000 now, but it will probably be free within 5 years.

You have a fundamentally different mindset from Fim. FiM is all about getting more playing time for your money and minimizing cost so that the sport can expand. No, not every event is as fancy as a regional, but that's the point. The big show is the championship which is hallmarked by high quality in both event production and robot competitiveness.

In FiM playing matches is everything. For all the hundereds of hours put into each robot many (most) robots went to a single regional this year and competed for a grand total of 1,215 seconds (20.25 minutes). FiM promises twice the playing time allowing that team that had a rough first competiton, instead of being finished with their season, another shot to improve and compete. This difference can not be understated and is a large part of the reason why Michigan teams are so competitive compaired to other areas of the world.

In regards to aquiring funding individual districts don't have their own funding. This is umbrella'd by FiM who I don't believe has ever had trouble aquiring sponsors.

I'm not telling you to agree with me, just asking you to understand the realities of the growing sport and the steps FiM has taken to allow an increasing amount of teams to compete more for less.
Regards, Bryan

Re: All District FIRST?
 

To your first point, I would say that the second event is a game changer. For a team who usually goes to 1 regional, if they can't get their robot figured out by Friday *POOF* there goes the whole season. If the same team is in a district model, sure, the first district event may go the way of the regional. However, they now have a window of time to work in their own shop to improve the bot for their second event, and hopefully have a good performance, maybe even qualifying for their District championship. I think that is much more inspiring than having a robot that never does what it was meant to do and then going home.

That being said, I think I understand your point better now, and it makes a lot of sense, especially how it relates to sponsors and funding. I think with time, the district system will improve as more areas adopt it and FIRST HQ continues to support it, and will start to get back more of the professionalism you're talking about. After this season, we'll have a combined 7 years experience in the system between FiM and MAR, so the new ones won't be starting from scratch.

Re: All District FIRST?
 

I would like to see the statistic on the number of teams who didn't participate in the elimination rounds during their 1st district but still made it to the State Championship, over the past few seasons. I can't think of any off of the top of my head. As the # of teams increase, and the # of St. champ. spots being static, it becomes increasingly difficult to make it to the big(ger) dance, almost to the point where a bad 1st district puts achieving states out of reach [yes mathematically still possible since 75(theoretical max pts per district) > 57(FiM cutoff this year) but I've never seen a team perform a 45+pt district improvement].

Even without qualifying for states, having the ability to improve and be competitive IS a game changer for weaker teams that turns an abysmal season into an inspiring season.

Re: All District FIRST?
 

I really hope not.

Indiana is still too spread out. And with one corner of the state barely populated with teams (SW corner) and the other corner/side devoid of teams (Cincinatti/Lousiville area*), I think the district system isn't appropriate.


*- I'll save this for another thread, as I live there and have a few things to say.

Aside from Indy, the state doesn't have enough teams crammed in one specific area to warrant districts. Kokomo and Lafayette have more than a few, but otherwise, it's too spread for districts to truly be districts.

I think the current two regional + 3 slightly out-of state regional setup is doing well... maybe a 3rd regional would ease tension. But districts, I'm not feeling it.

Re: All District FIRST?
 

Everyone is getting excited about districts since they offer so many advantages to the current system, but don't realize why the district model works. I'd love to be able to compete twice or more without having to travel 400 miles and budget $5000 per competition, but there are very few places where having districts is feasible. Districts would work in the North East, since there is a high team population density, but as soon as you go to places like the southeast US, things get tricky. If >85% of teams are in one city and there's less than 50 teams in that city, districts aren't right for your state yet, and may not be until the region populates more. It's nice to be able to go to multiple competitions for the same registration price, and only pay $1000 for each additional district event, but unless one city or area has two regionals that are within a 50 mile radius of each other, then districts are far in your future. Try doing what Toronto does first, by having two regionals in the city that are 3 weeks apart.

Re: All District FIRST?
 

Playing time is very important to my team. As others have stated, the amount of time, energy, and money spent on the construction of the robot warrant an increase in playing time. Our regional this year gave us 8 matches. When I saw the match schedule, I couldn't believe it! The parents of my students were not happy and neither was I. We had a difficult Thursday, missed all practice time, and were left with very little opportunity to work with our machine. I'm sure this story is not unique to my team.

My school district has a difficult time supporting a program that costs so much per pupil. When they hear that we are competing against 60 or so other teams for a handful of shots at advancing, and we only get 8-9 opportunities/18-20 minutes of playing time, the program becomes even harder to justify. It is hard to explain this whole 18 minutes of competition with 3 days in the hotel to the AD.

I would support any model that increases playing time while reducing time spent away from school in hotels.

Re: All District FIRST?
 

As a one regional team before MAR due to a serious lack of funding, and barely scraping entry each year, I can attest that the number of matches and events for my money is more important than the "snazz" of an event - thats what the regional champs are for. I can see it not making a huge difference to more fortunate teams.

I believe seeing the robot the students put together for the last 1008 hours of their lives succeed is greater than a good sound system and light show in terms of inspiration.

Perfect example, TCNJ this year was a pure disaster for us. Couldn't get the robot running whatsoever. We used the time while eliminations were going on to figure out what was wrong and come up with a game plan for our next district, which, we won.

With our team being in such a high density area getting sponsors is pretty tough, I'd rather pay 4k for 24 matches at 2 events then play 8 matches with a boston regional setup for the same amount.


NOTE: Wheres everyone getting this 17k figure from? Districts+MAR CMP+CMP=13k, I'm assuming its the same for Michigan.
EDIT: I think I was missing the "super regional" step

Re: All District FIRST?
 

^One thing Brandon didn't come right out and say, but I'm sure he thinks is important, is that more teams get recognition for their hard work at the district level than at the regional level.

When 2495 won the Lenape District in Week 4, they earned the same kind of blue banner anyone in any regional would have earned if they won their tournament. Sure, the team did not win MAR Champs, but they won a blue banner. Whether it's a district or a regional, winning an event is no easy feat in the tournament or in the Chairman's room, and their accomplishment was recognized.

There are a lot of really good teams in really dense, strong areas of robot country that may have limitations in funding because they are not providing winning results. I imagine that winning a district is a provides a morale boost for team members and supporters as well as attracts potential sponsors for a team trying to make itself as tough as the established powerhouses.

Re: All District FIRST?
 

Adding to recognition (and I don't know if it was mentioned in this thread), but a District championship provides a tangible, obtainable goal for many teams that, if attending Championships, would have gone based off the previous existence of open registration. We're not a regional winning level team by any means necessary. But the existence of MAR Championships has enabled us to enter our districts with the logic of, "we need to do this and this and this to be able to make it to MAR champs"

I put the emphasis on what I did because for a team that it is unrealistic to win in to championships for in the traditional regional structure, MAR championships gives an accomplishment-based reward for teams that otherwise would feel no accomplishment/reward based off the regional system(ie. you had to win a regional to make it into the next level of competition-Championships)

Re: All District FIRST?
 

Going to completely agree with Brandon here, especially after learning from and working with 2495 this season and 3929 last season, as well as working with many underfunded MAR teams in the area.

I don't give a crap about the extras at events anymore. It is all about the the inspiration that takes place on the field for me, my students, and the potential sponsors I bring in. Qualcomm reps we brought to TCNJ didn't care at all about the venue or anything else, they cared about the robots and the kids. More matches do equal more inspiration. Fancy lights and banners don't.

In addition to this, it is EXTREMELY difficult for new teams in dense areas to find the large amount of funding it would take to go to two normal regionals+travel+lodging.

Full disclosure: I freaking love the current district model in MAR. Sure it has some improvements that can be made, but I completely disagree that spending a bit more money in running them to add some random extra jazz is worth it to the teams who pay to compete in it. The atmosphere of an event is what the teams make it, not what regionals with cool lighting and banners and all used to be.

Re: All District FIRST?
 

How is, "We'll take your $10k and spend it on fancy lights" a more compelling argument than "We'll take your $10k and expose this to hundreds of additional people"?

I understand that donors want something for their donation, but it seems like you get a lot more bang for your buck in the district model. And there will still be a state championship with the production value of a traditional regional, and the robot quality is way, way better. Are the fancy lights and AV crew worth it if the robots struggle to score a single game piece?

I lived a similar experience to Brandon. In the first two years of 1276 we had a kind of adversarial relationship with the school (teachers kept track of when we left printers on, and other fun pedantic things, and we were very thorough about cleaning up after ourselves). In 2006 we invited the principal to come to our regional, and by a happy coincidence we won. After that, we had full run of the schools tools and they paid our registration fee.

Sign me up FIRSTWA. :cool:

Re: All District FIRST?
 

Adding to this, even though we were the last pick of the winning alliance, the resulting boost in confidence in the students was immediately noticeable, and they worked their butts off to attend MAR Champs.

As I recall, we were on the field and had some downtime. The usual dance party ensued, and I caught our Qualcomm rep dancing with our lead mentor.

Re: All District FIRST?
 

If I'm lucky and don't need to eat, I might be able to make it to the bridge in five hours; it's about seven to Traverse and probably eight to nine for Flint. You are correct however regarding Duluth.

Re: All District FIRST?
 

Well, should it then really be called the Michigan State Championship, if the UP starts competing with Minnesota and/or Wisconsin teams in a separate district?

Re: All District FIRST?
 

Were the National Capital Area meetings at VA, DC, or MD recorded? Were meeting minutes taken?

Re: All District FIRST?
 

MAR has already divided a state in half (only the eastern half of PA is included). I think that's a good way to go, IMO. Teams often consider regionals outside of their state to be their "home regionals" because it's closer for them. In another thread about districts, I used the example of South Jersey and Delaware teams attending the Philly regional instead of NJ because it was much closer for them. You see the same thing in other regions (someone pointed out earlier that panhandle teams mostly competed in nola).

Of course, this wouldn't be as much of a problem if they allowed interdistrict play.

Re: All District FIRST?
 

Well the main reasoning behind that thought process would be that most states already have organized state championships for other states and so it would be easier to bring FIRST into the mainstream if the setup was easy to understand for normal high school/middle school families.