ONLY AT THE MICHIGAN STATE CHAMPIONSHIP
 

Only ant the Michigan state championship can you lose with an score of 190pts!
There were multiple Qualifying matches that push 180pts and above. The average losing score was around 150 pts! That is insane! The field was so deep that the 85% teams that didn't make it into the eliminations were strong enough to go to any other regional and not only make it to eliminations but win! The level game play is off the charts. I am not counting on Nationals being this competitive until maybe Einstein.

Also I love IRI the Indiana Robotics Invitational. They have some of the best teams from around the county every year and its always amazing but if they want to compete with what I just saw at MSC then they have a very very tall order to fill.


Who out there thinks that Nationals will be as good as the MSC?

Re: ONLY AT THE MICHIGAN STATE CHAMPIONSHIP
 

MSC likely has more competitive qualifying matches on average. I think championship eliminations can be expected to be more intense, especially towards Einstein.

IRI trumps all.

Re: ONLY AT THE MICHIGAN STATE CHAMPIONSHIP
 

I don't think this is really even a question, IRI will be way more competitive without any doubt. We will probably see very few scores under 175.

The question would be better if you left IRI out of the mix and just asked MSC vs. Championships. I personally think that we will be seeing a more competitive championships, but it is definitely arguable that MSC is better.

Re: ONLY AT THE MICHIGAN STATE CHAMPIONSHIP
 

I see this year 30%+ of MSC are going to be at IRI.

Re: ONLY AT THE MICHIGAN STATE CHAMPIONSHIP
 

I think the difference between the two events (MSC and IRI) comes from the fact that IRI is an off season event. Due to this fact, many teams don't bring their A game, and an 'all star' tournament is never truly realized. An example of the repercussions of an off season tournament are the newly introduced/inexperienced drive teams (eg 67 who uses the event to train new drivers after the previous team graduates) and many other teams who are missing essential mentors or students to vacations or other summer projects. Finally distance and price tag cause some teams to decline invitation.

For other reasons, MSC can not be the most competitive as it is limited to Michigan teams only. Michigan might be the most competitive area for FRC, and MSC the most intense competition of the area, it is not the best representation because of the limited geographic influence.

CMP can be disappointing from time to time, and may not be the most exciting during quals, but I think it is the best representation because of its prestige and the distance teams will travel to play. If there could be more qual matches, or smaller divisions it would be even better.

Overall, the three events have their own merits and fall backs. Perhaps in combination, one day it will be possible to derive the best robot from their performances at all three (regional cmp, cmp, and iri).

Re: ONLY AT THE MICHIGAN STATE CHAMPIONSHIP
 

The nature of this game really lead to an increase in performance for almost every team in FIRST. Pretty much >50% of teams at any regional/district event have some ability to score a modest level of frisbees.

So when you combine a game like this with a qualification style event like MSC, it's just a recipe for incredible performance in the qualification matches. Then add in another level of sorting, by picking the best 24 teams at an event the eliminations performance just increases even more exponentially.

But, the same thing has been happening every year since we started this FiM district system. MSC tops you typical district/regional event, but gets trumped by the eliminations @ Champs, and IRI eliminations tops them all.

The level of performance needed to win a Division or even better Einstein is outrageous, from performance to reliability, it just takes some really well built machines combined with outstanding performance and strategy. By the time we get to that level, the amount of pressure to succeed is sometimes overwelming. Topping even MSC.

I would predict that the Champs elims will be even better than what we just saw this weekend. Take MSC and add in all the rest of the teams from outside of Michigan...it HAS to be!

Then, take only the "best of the best" teams from all over (MSC, Champs, Silver medalists that didn't get into champs, etc..) and bring them to a small gym in the middle of Indiana and things get even crazier. Yes, some teams try out new drivers and are maybe not always operating at full strength. But, there are also those teams that maybe experienced some bad luck at Champs or lost on a questionable call that are looking for redemption.

MSC elims < Divisions elims < Einstein < IRI for level of competitiveness.

I can't wait to get back out there!

Re: ONLY AT THE MICHIGAN STATE CHAMPIONSHIP
 

Wow, I actually do disagree with Adam every once in a while. From my experience in the divisions and at MSC eliminations, I believe the MSC eliminations are always tougher than the Championship division elimination rounds.

My examples are '09 and '11 since I wasn't at MSC in 2010 and for 2012, well let's just leave that one alone. In both '09 and '11, our elimination rounds were much less tough that the MSC elims those two years.

Einstein, however, is a completely different story.

IRI ... no contest. It is borderline insane.

Re: ONLY AT THE MICHIGAN STATE CHAMPIONSHIP
 

That would be insane! if it were true.

Average losing score during qualifications is 111.2, average losing score during elimination is 144.3.

Maybe you meant winning score? Average winning score during qualifications was 153, 181 during elimination.

Re: ONLY AT THE MICHIGAN STATE CHAMPIONSHIP
 

That's OK, I think we can still be friends...;)

In this case, I hope your right because I'd like to have a much easier time this year at Champs, than we did at MSC this weekend.

Thinking back, it's probably 50/50.

- 2009, I think MSC was a bit more competitive than the Division champs. But we also had 111 at Champs, who was IMO the best robot at Champs.

- 2010, we had to face 469 @ MSC...so that would say MSC was tougher. But, I think outside of 469, the teams in the division eliminations were a little stronger.

- 2011, no question we had a harder time fighting the likes of 2056, 71, 2826, 987, and all the super fast minibots that showed up at Champs than we did at MSC.

- 2012, we also much harder time in St. Louis, when we had to go up against 1114, 2056, and 4334 in our division eliminations.

I would suspect that typically the elimination round scores on average continue to increase, even from MSC to Division.

I'm sure Jim Zondag would have data to prove this arguement one way or the other.

Re: ONLY AT THE MICHIGAN STATE CHAMPIONSHIP
 

Ok, I probably don't even rate an opinion in this discussion -- seeing that Adam and Paul have already weighed in. So, before Jim brings that data to the party, I will sneak in my humble observation:

I was at MSC, and six other district/regional events last year. And I volunteered at the Championship, resetting the Archimedes field. I saw a lot of matches. From what I saw, MSC quarterfinals are the most competitive of any event except IRI. But, beginning in the semis and most especially in the finals, Championship divisions have the edge over MSC.

IRI still beats every other event for raw competition. This year I expect to see discs overflowing from the center goal, three robots at the top of the pyramid, skid marks and smoke from fullback robots -- in Paul's words, borderline insanity. Maybe a little over that line.

Re: ONLY AT THE MICHIGAN STATE CHAMPIONSHIP
 

I think the Championship probably has the better top 24 robots, but the nature of the competition can lead to watered down elimination matches. With such a large field and thus so few qualification matches, the chances of a below average robot seeding in the top 8 is pretty good. Additionally, I suspect the average team only really knows a handful of the 100 teams in their division coming into the event, making scouting and learning all 100 teams a huge challenge (there always seems to be some very odd picks at the CMP). MSC has 12 qualification matches and the average team already knows the majority of the teams coming into the event, making the 24 teams in the elminations very close to the best 24 robots.

Re: ONLY AT THE MICHIGAN STATE CHAMPIONSHIP
 

There were quite a lot of matches where the score difference was less than 5 points, especially on Saturday afternoon.

Re: ONLY AT THE MICHIGAN STATE CHAMPIONSHIP
 

There's no option for the Championship. ;P

Uh...

Re: ONLY AT THE MICHIGAN STATE CHAMPIONSHIP
 

MSC was amazing and I expect IRI to be equally amazing.

Re: ONLY AT THE MICHIGAN STATE CHAMPIONSHIP
 

I tend to agree with Richard on this. The difference as shown in the math is depth vs highest scorer. The worlds highest scorers are at Worlds, so the highest highs are higher but the distribution is shallower. MSC tends to have better depth through midrange which leads to asastronger second round pick which has better quarters. Also MSC qualifying can be rough as the event has better parity amongst teams which can lead to more losses yet still making rank.

Re: ONLY AT THE MICHIGAN STATE CHAMPIONSHIP
 

Only Michigan gets to create about a dozen threads for the Michigan State Championship in the wrong subforum without anyone calling them out on it <3

Mostly because if provoked, Michigan robots WILL hunt you down, and they shoot to kill. Or something.

Re: ONLY AT THE MICHIGAN STATE CHAMPIONSHIP
 

Yes. When 67 takes dead aim, you'd better get your pool noodles up, quick. ;)

Re: ONLY AT THE MICHIGAN STATE CHAMPIONSHIP
 

Our robots are actually an army and the full court shooters are like our assassins. In the robot uprising the Michigan FCS Infantry division will be the ones that are used to decapitate all the resisting forces.

Re: ONLY AT THE MICHIGAN STATE CHAMPIONSHIP
 

And the robots with floor pick-up will clean up all the evidence. No witnesses.

Re: ONLY AT THE MICHIGAN STATE CHAMPIONSHIP
 

Considering that "Nationals" doesn't exist, it is, logically both the most and the least competitive of all events.

Semantics aside, I believe that, overall, the Championship competition will be more competitive, while MSC is almost certainly higher scoring.

Re: ONLY AT THE MICHIGAN STATE CHAMPIONSHIP
 

To add some numerics to this subject: Attached is a scatterplot of FRC all the events played so far this year.
The two District Championships outperform all of the standard events by a large margin on both average team performance and competitive balance.
If the past is any guide, http://www.chiefdelphi.com/media/papers/2711, the CMP divisions will fall somewhere in the gap between the MAR event and best of the regular events (Bedford, Pine Tree).
The IRI, as always, will surpass everything that comes before it.

Re: ONLY AT THE MICHIGAN STATE CHAMPIONSHIP
 

And the data is in! :)

Re: ONLY AT THE MICHIGAN STATE CHAMPIONSHIP
 

I have watched many events through webcast this year, and when I was watching the Michigan state championship, I was in the library of my school, and I was on the edge of my seat the whole time, I even cheered a few times until I got yelled at, what an awesome event

Re: ONLY AT THE MICHIGAN STATE CHAMPIONSHIP
 

Could you elaborate on what Signal / Noise Ratio is in this context, and how it is calculated?

Re: ONLY AT THE MICHIGAN STATE CHAMPIONSHIP
 

To be fair, I think the District championships are more closely related to IRI than regionals. They just use a scoring system to pick which teams are worthy to attend.
The week before I was in Chicago and there were three teams who were not ready to compete from the get go because their robots were illegal (last years specs). In fact there were several teams that struggled to make it to the field on a consistent basis for some reason or another that oft times had nothing to do with the robot. There were no such robots at either district final. Those type of teams were weeded out during the earlier weeks.

Re: ONLY AT THE MICHIGAN STATE CHAMPIONSHIP
 

Signal to Noise Ratio is used a lot in engineering methods were physical phenomena are measured for quality. It is used in communications, electonics and recently is used a lot in quality methods to measure the quality of processes and components. SNR (or S/N) is a logarithmic value measured in dB.

It turns out that methods for measuring quality in the world of Engineering and Manufacturing can be easily applied to sports. Another great opportunity for crossover learning in the world of STEM/FRC.

SNR give you a ratio of variabliy compared to the level of the signal you are measuring. In this case I am using Average Event OPR as the measurment of interest. The higher the SNR value, the more "competatively balanced" the event is, meaning that the distribution of the capability of teams is tighter than at an event with a lower SNR value.

Example, Compare Central Valley with Alamo. Both have nearly identical average OPR numbers for the event, (15.4, 15.2), however the distribution of OPRs for the teams at Alamo was much broader than at Central Valley.
What this a higher SNR means is that the event not likely as dominated by a few good teams, but instead was much more balanced competitively.

On these scatter graphs, Higher is means better overall event scoring ability, points to the right have better competitive balance.

I plan to write a paper on this, if I can ever find the time.
I use this same method to measure many factors in FRC competitive analysis, from the quality of individual teams, team quality growth over time, game design comparisons, and more. Fun with math.

Re: ONLY AT THE MICHIGAN STATE CHAMPIONSHIP
 

The point of IRI is to see the most instense competition of the year, thats why you have to be crazy good to get in...

Re: ONLY AT THE MICHIGAN STATE CHAMPIONSHIP
 

So what is it, the standard deviation of OPR in dB or something similar?

Re: ONLY AT THE MICHIGAN STATE CHAMPIONSHIP
 

S/N = 10 * Log ( Average^2 / StdDev^2 )
This is a standard formula from Signal Processing and related fields.

Events with tighter grouping will have a higher SNR.
Images below depict this graphically.

Re: ONLY AT THE MICHIGAN STATE CHAMPIONSHIP
 

The great thing about IRI is that you lack the exclusivity of MAR or MSC - that is, you have the best MAR and Michigan teams plus the rest of the best from the rest of the world. It's absolutely no contest that IRI is far more competitive than either of the regional championships. With that said, comparison between Divisional competition and Einstein vs. MAR or MSC eliminations can certainly fluctuate. Take, for example, the eliminations in 2011. I can't speak to the rest of the divisions, but eliminations on Galileo were fairly intense, but the #2 alliance of 254, 111, and 973 won handily, and were hardly challenged on Einstein. Except for one match in the Galileo finals, there were no upsets and very few close matches. In that year, at least, I would consider MSC's elims to be far more exciting (Whenever a #8 seed alliance can upset a #1 alliance like 217, 469, and 201 can be upset, you know the event must be deep). That said, neither events held a candle to the IRI.

Re: ONLY AT THE MICHIGAN STATE CHAMPIONSHIP
 

The part I'm surprised by is that MSC is SO much more competitive than MAR.

Re: ONLY AT THE MICHIGAN STATE CHAMPIONSHIP
 

IRI is insane. You need to be there to see it.

Re: ONLY AT THE MICHIGAN STATE CHAMPIONSHIP
 

I wonder if this has anything to do with how many MAR teams turned down their MAR Championship invitation, as they qualified at a regional? I don't think MSC had any teams turn down that invitation.

Quick note:
A team from the Upper Peninsula (at least a 10 hour drive) found out on Tuesday that they qualified for MSC. They were able to pay and organize in time to be there Thursday morning. They passed inspection quickly. I haven't had time to look up how they did, but I was so excited that they made the effort to come down for the event. What an awesome experience for their team!

Re: ONLY AT THE MICHIGAN STATE CHAMPIONSHIP
 

IRI, no doubt.

Re: ONLY AT THE MICHIGAN STATE CHAMPIONSHIP
 

Unfortunately Team 216 had to turn down the invitation to states. Our robots were still making their way through customs after competing as a finalist at the Western Canada Regional in Alberta. If there was any way for us to have attended, we would have!! So sad that we had to miss this crazy Championship! :(

Re: ONLY AT THE MICHIGAN STATE CHAMPIONSHIP
 

857 ranked 56th, with a 4-8-0 record. It's about a 9 hour drive to MSC for them, and they probably encountered at least a little snow somewhere along the way (either on the way there or on the return trip).

Re: ONLY AT THE MICHIGAN STATE CHAMPIONSHIP
 

I remember when we competed at Waterloo this year and seeing the high scores, worlds highest average winning score, and how competitive almost every team was. Watching MSC blew that out of the water. MSC was just insane. I don't see Champs Quals being higher but elims will be probably 150-175 Average Winning Score.
IRI is IRI. That is all.

Re: ONLY AT THE MICHIGAN STATE CHAMPIONSHIP
 

It doesn't seem that MSC has a necessarily tighter grouping, just that it's mean shifted up by about 20. That's something I'd expect when you've created a performance filter on teams.

Compare that to the Championship event, where each regional produces 6 invitations; where 2 of the invitations are filled by the 2 most competitive teams and the other 4 aren't necessarily; unless the event was deep and the 20 something pick was still a good robot.

Re: ONLY AT THE MICHIGAN STATE CHAMPIONSHIP
 

Also. STOP CALLING IT NATIONALS! Doesn't World Championship have a stronger ring to it anyway?

Its an international competition, and it hasn't been called nationals since 2002, when the Canadian Regional (now Greater Toronto West) started 11 years ago. In the time since, there is now 6 regionals (5 in Canada and 1 in Israel) that happen on international soil, and others in the works (AFAIK Australia and Mexico are on the fast track). 234 International teams (of 2538 registered teams in 2013 [9.2%]) representing 15 countries compete in FRC. To call FIRST Championship "Nationals" makes us feel like we don't exist.

Re: ONLY AT THE MICHIGAN STATE CHAMPIONSHIP
 

One of my pet peeves too, although I generally just cringe and deal with it.

Re: ONLY AT THE MICHIGAN STATE CHAMPIONSHIP
 

Don't.

You can't expect anything to change if you're not going to step up and try to make that change. Even if that means calling out everyone you see/hear making that mistake. As Racer26 pointed out, it's been a WORLD Championship for over a decade. As a community, we have no excuse for continuing to call it nationals.

Re: ONLY AT THE MICHIGAN STATE CHAMPIONSHIP
 

Mr. Zondag,

Thanks for the information on the signal noise ratio, I will be showing my students tomorrow. It reminds me of Cp and Cpk in determining process capability, but with those you have upper and lower spec limits to base off of. Here we don't so I'm glad to know a way to "judge" the equality of the competitors.

Re: ONLY AT THE MICHIGAN STATE CHAMPIONSHIP
 

Isn't higher score means poor defense? If you watch some of the matches you see robots hurrying like mouse scurrying with a cheese bit!

Hats off to the drivers! Do the experience carpal tunnel syndrome?::rtm::

Re: ONLY AT THE MICHIGAN STATE CHAMPIONSHIP
 

Check out the elimination matches. While the quals are usually an offensive burst by all teams, eliminations is where defense usually shines. I don't think anyone normally tries to play defense during the quals unless you're in MAR, a defense heavy region.

Re: ONLY AT THE MICHIGAN STATE CHAMPIONSHIP
 

This kind of reminds me of the Sharp ratio for portfolio selection. So FIRST is relevant to engineering, sports, and now economics!


Also there were a total of four FiM teams that turned down MSC; 216, 1596, 94, and 815. Don't know anything about MAR. 216 has already stated that they were stuck in international shipping. I'd be interesting to see if any of the other 3 teams had nonfinancial reasons for not attending.

Re: ONLY AT THE MICHIGAN STATE CHAMPIONSHIP
 

I know I for one, received some defense in quals. As for carpal tunnel syndrome, I haven't had any effects from driving thus far... but I did experience lack-of-sleep syndrome, but that's probably just a coincidence. ;)

Re: ONLY AT THE MICHIGAN STATE CHAMPIONSHIP
 

A total of 16 teams declined MAR this year. We had to go down to the 65th rank team just to get 49 robots to attend. The list of teams who declined in order of points are:

341
365
2016
25
1367
219
1495
4361
3123
136
1647
1807
555
3151
1168
203

The top four of those teams (341, 365, 2016 and 25) had already qualified to go to Championships and didn't need to attend MAR. Those four teams also represent some of the best ground loaders in MAR. Only five other teams with ground loading attended Lehigh, and most weren't as good as these teams.

Re: ONLY AT THE MICHIGAN STATE CHAMPIONSHIP
 

Ow...flashbacks...brain hurting...:

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...40&postcount=4
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...ad.php?t=37325


Also, IRI rulz.

Re: ONLY AT THE MICHIGAN STATE CHAMPIONSHIP
 

I won't attempt to guess how other areas might play. I can, however, assure you that Michigan teams play some hard-nosed defense in the qualification rounds.

We had to repair our bumpers after our first district, and then completely rebuild them before states. We also had to bend our lift system back into square, and repeatedly tighten our wheel hardware and re-rivet support structures. Almost all that damage was incurred during hard fought qualification rounds.

Re: ONLY AT THE MICHIGAN STATE CHAMPIONSHIP
 

This was the first year we had to repair our bumpers whatsoever. Things got physical out on the field.

I think the most physical/exciting individual matchup I saw this year was between 469 and 2834 at Detroit. 469 was unstoppable and 2834 did their best to do the impossible. The results were amazing. Although in the end, despite 2834's amazing D effort, 469 still got the job done.

Re: ONLY AT THE MICHIGAN STATE CHAMPIONSHIP
 

My vote for best defense goes to 141 (on 469), 2337 (on 2959), and 4384 (on 2767). The defense made even the best offensive bots look like fools on the field. Some of that can be attributed to drive trains, but a lot of it really just comes down to driver anticipation.

Can't wait to see how the game evolves at Champs.

Edit: Video evidence thanks to 2337! (I'm noticing a trend of excellence! You guys rock!)

Q27 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=clvrXPggjAg (141 v 469)
Q40 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LCTSlblRfz4 (2337 v 2959)
Q79 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j5XN6hUouxQ (4834 v 2767)

Re: ONLY AT THE MICHIGAN STATE CHAMPIONSHIP
 

2337 shut down 2959 in math 40, that was such an awesome match to watch. They drive really smart, and they've got a tough bot that can get a defensive job done. I'm really glad that they made it champs, they had a very powerful showing of defense at MSC. Literally, 2959 only got the 18 points in auton and a climb. Very impressive to shut down a district winner like that, even though 2337's alliance couldn't quite get the win.

Re: ONLY AT THE MICHIGAN STATE CHAMPIONSHIP
 

To add a little more data:

Watch 123 shut down 2000, one of the top scorers at MSC. (This was one of the most inspired games of defense I've seen in a while).
Watch 1718 / 51 joust.
Watch 2337 hit 2145 Hazmats so hard that all their frisbees exit the top of their machine, vertically. This wasn't defense... but the collision was ridiculous.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSxNXssUsVs

Re: ONLY AT THE MICHIGAN STATE CHAMPIONSHIP
 

Too bad we couldn't make states. ;)