How does the Districts system work?
 

Hi, I'm relatively new to FRC, and while competing in DC and Chesapeake, I heard rumblings that the MD/VA/DC area was moving to districts. At the same time, while monitoring Chief Delphi, I've noticed several threads on the subject of districts. So I have a few questions.
1. How does the district system work? (duh) Does that mean that only teams from within that district can compete against each other? If so, I'd be hesitant to move to districts. At DC, it was awesome to see teams from Brazil and Israel, as well as Florida, North Carolina, and so forth. Likewise, at Chesapeake, New York teams and some Pennsylvania teams were very fun to interact with.
2. How does the district system offer advantages over the Regionals system currently in place?
3. What are the complaints of the current Regional system?
4. What is a Super Regional? I can't imagine that it could only take winners from the districts, as you would need A LOT of districts to currently call a Super Regional "Super" when both the DC and Chesapeake comps are usually 60+ teams.
So I guess those are all my questions. Links, flowcharts, videos are all welcome.

Re: How does the Districts system work?
 

This should answer all your questions: http://www.firstinmichigan.org/FRC_2...Supplement.pdf
Further reading: http://www.chiefdelphi.com/media/papers/2804

Re: How does the Districts system work?
 

At least for the MAR district, the only teams allowed to participate in District Events are teams from the district. You get two District Events for your registration fee (rather than one Regional) and each District Event should have each team playing 12 matches (rather than 8-9). You can register for a third District Event for an additional fee ($1,000?). Additionally, with smaller events (30-40 teams), each team has a higher chance of advancing to Eliminations.

You can still participate in outside Regionals by paying the second Regional fee.

You get more playing time for your registration fees (24 matches rather than 8-9). The venues are far less costly.

The primary two anti-regional complaints I heard before MAR was formed was that the venues were: 1) the venues were prohibitively expensive, and 2) the money spent by the teams to play 8-9 matches was too high.

I've not heard the term, other than to say "it was a SUPER Regional today!"...

Re: How does the Districts system work?
 

Not really. There are a huge number of questions that will apply specifically to VA/MD/DC.

For example:

• VirginiaFIRST, Maryland FIRST, and (I think) DC FIRST are all their own 501(c)(3) non-profit corporations. Will they merge into a National Capital Region organization? If so, who will make up the new leadership?
• Western PA (counties west of Harrisburg) is not part of MAR. Will a similar boundary exist for Maryland and Virginia? Teams in these areas are geographically closer to the regional events in Pittsburgh and Knoxville.

Re: How does the Districts system work?
 

A "super regional" is a possible extra level of competition between regionals/district championships and the world championship that we might see sometime in the future. It comes from a graphic of FIRST's future vision which was posted by NE FIRST(New England) last summer. Theoretically the country would be split up into 4 sections, and teams would qualify for their respective super regional, and then qualify for Worlds from there.

Re: How does the Districts system work?
 

From the mouth of Zondag himself — http://recordings.talkshoe.com/TC-98466/TS-569023.mp3

Re: How does the Districts system work?
 

As VA,MD,and DC gain more teams i think they will outgrow the current regional system and move over to the district system .For example Michigan has over 200 team and adapted this idea several years ago and only the best robots qualify for the district championship based on a ranking system.As for a set year for the "Capitol region championship" i can only assume this will be name is anyone guess when it will take place

Re: How does the Districts system work?
 

DC FIRST was "spun off" as its own 501(c)(3) organization in 2012, though I believe the leadership for DC FIRST and VirginiaFIRST are still the same. There is a lot of history and money in the VirginiaFIRST "brand" (it was the second state organization developed to support FIRST but independent from HQ, IIRC). I believe that all 3 organizations currently raise funds for the three regional events together and have done so for at least the last 3 years, while the individual organizations run their own FLL and FTC programs and will likely continue to do so.

As a Virginian involved with VirginiaFIRST, I personally would like to see all 3 stay separate but transition the current competition of the tri-region over to the district system, which would likely result in 8 district events and a championship at VCU. For those who don't know, VCU's Siegel Center is the closest you can get to "grandaddy of them all" for FIRST venues, behind only Eastern Michigan University for oldest active regional locations, once again, if my memory doesn't escape me. In addition, it's not out of the question to see the commonwealth of Virginia grow to a number of teams in the next 5 years where VirginiaFIRST would prefer to structure its own district system structure separate from DC and Maryland, much like Michigan.

Whether teams that are closer to Pittsburgh and Buckeye will allow to opt-out from travelling down to Richmond for a championship every year has not been discussed (probably because those teams unfortunately didn't attend any events where the district system was discussed).

Regardless, Virginia is one of the oldest states to host FIRST Robotics Competitions and yet it continues to struggle mightily with making strides to keep up with its older brother in the Great Lakes area because it exists in this unhappy medium. Now, there are too many teams to support one self-contained in-state event and too few teams and resources to actually hold two worthwhile traditional events. This has resulted in stagnating team counts and numerous veteran teams going the way of the dinosaur. Thanks to economic climate of the last 5 years combined with the decreased emphasis of match-play per team in Virginia (down to 8 matches this year...), VirginiaFIRST has had over 3 dozen teams abandon the program in the last few years because their schools switched to FTC or decided to make marching band, athletics, ESL classes, and ROTC a priority over FRC.

It is a problem both the alumni of VirginiaFIRST and FRC Team 422 are looking into adequately addressing, but a big catalyst for returning teams would be the low cost model coming as soon as it can.

Re: How does the Districts system work?
 

Correct me if I am wrong, but I thought a super regional is where there are 2 fields in one location. Also, was this or was this not considered or used in Michigan before districts took over?

Re: How does the Districts system work?
 

Usually I hear that called a dual or double regional, like the ones in Minnesota and Seattle in previous years.

Re: How does the Districts system work?
 

First off, nice showing at Chesapeake, 122! Loved the knight costume and your team was positively awesome.
But back to the reply. That's probably a really good point that I hadn't thought about as a student. The leadership is going to have to make some decisions about that. I think the Maryland area still has a lot of room to grow, and while the Northern Virginia area has been around since forever, there is far more room for Virginia as a whole to grow as well.
I came up with a question just now, for teams that have actually participated in a district, actually. About how much time is there between matches? Like, if something on the robot breaks, is there much time to fix it?

Re: How does the Districts system work?
 

I saw this graphic in this comment today it explained a lot to me about the overall vision for the future of FRC.

It will be interesting to see how quickly more of these districts start to form.

Re: How does the Districts system work?
 

VERY interesting! I had no idea Virginia had so many teams! They could likely split into districts in a few years. Maryland has a ways to go, while DC would likely have to pair up with Maryland. I kinda like the system that's moving towards, actually. Looks great and very organized. However, how would Overseas teams compete? And as I've mentioned before, I LOVE seeing teams from other states and countries. If FRC eventually moved to all districts, I could see the restrictions like the ones being imposed on FiM being removed, turning the team traveling of FRC back.

Re: How does the Districts system work?
 

I do not know whether it was considered, but it was not used in Michigan at any point I'm aware of.

I think he was more referring to the 2006 Greater Toronto Regional, where two fields were actually used side-by-side for one regional event (with 16 elimination alliances!).

Also, back in the early days when the fields were smaller there were often two fields used to decrease the time between matches.

Re: How does the Districts system work?
 

There is no doubt in my mind that there will eventually be a Capital Region District. The Virginia, DC, and Chesapeake regionals have been filled with 60-65 teams for as long as I can remember. With the growth in the region, we will eventually have to add a 4th regional in close proximity, or switch over to a district system.


If there is a Capital Region Championship, I would think that it would be located in or near DC. I understand the point about how VCU has long ties with FIRST, but the problem is that the biggest density of teams which would be located in the Capital Region are in the DC - Baltimore corridor.

After looking at the 2013 Team map (358's team map for reference), I have counted about 35 teams spread out between Richmond and Norfolk. However, there are about 65 teams centered in the DC - Baltimore corridor.

If the championship was held in either location, I would see a good number of teams from Virginia or Maryland heading to either the North Carolina or Pittsburgh regional. Maybe the location of the championship should switch every year.

Re: How does the Districts system work?
 

The Virginia regional also has to line up with the VCU spring break, which likely puts it too early in the season to hold a Capital Region Championship. VCU could still hold a district event, though. While most FiM/MAR districts are in high schools, a few have been hosted by universities (Kettering, GVSU, TCNJ, Rutgers).

Re: How does the Districts system work?
 

Well, if you're team 75 at the Mount Olive District Event, you are participating in matches 59 and 61. :eek: However, typically, you have 10-20 minutes in the pits before queueing back up.

At 36 teams per District Event, you are participating in one match out of every six. That's 5 matches between. Since they queue two matches ahead, you have about 2-3 matches to get things adjusted/modified/fixed. It's tight, but it can be done. :ahh:

Re: How does the Districts system work?
 

Lining up the VCU academic calendar and the dates of prior Virginia Regionals, it was not held during the VCU Spring Break in 2011 or 2013.

Re: How does the Districts system work?
 

Or perhaps a Double DECCer? :cool:

Re: How does the Districts system work?
 

I've only been on 2537 for two years, and I'm always stunned by the sheer amount of people at the regionals. (Something I always like to do--listen to 2000+ people clap during the Cha Cha Slide--it's AMAZING). I went to a smaller regional over spring break, actually, and I had to get used to the smaller field. The teams were closer and they got more matches in, but the "Big Event" feeling wasn't quite there. Regardless, it was an awesome regional. I'm only not saying which regional I went to so that I'm not telling everybody online where I went over spring break :D.

Re: How does the Districts system work?
 

o.O
At regionals, we usually have nearly an hour in between matches. It's kinda fun, though...you get to know people in your own pit REALLY well, and you have more time to see the robots around the event. I could see myself getting VERY tired at district events. That being said, it's always fun to get more matches in, which would be cool.

Re: How does the Districts system work?
 

Although the DC tournament is immediately closer for many teams, Virginia is a very big state and I think we should be concerned about growth in the region, not just the metropolitan centers. Using the map you referenced, the most remote team in Maryland is 4 hours away from VCU. The most remote team in Virginia, however, is 6 hours away from the DC Regional.

I think holding the championship in DC would damage both the growth and sustainability of FRC in western Virginia, which is certainly a large enough area to be concerned about.

Re: How does the Districts system work?
 

In addition, costs for teams travelling to Richmond are far, far, far lower than costs for teams travelling to Washington DC.

Re: How does the Districts system work?
 

I would disagree with this because for most of western Virginia, (or at least the part I consider western) the North Carolina Regional is closer than the Virginia regional is.

However, I will agree that housing the championship in DC would be more expensive for teams traveling and staying overnight.

Re: How does the Districts system work?
 

Why does that matter? Grundy High School (team furthest to the west) has been travelling the extra hour to the Virginia Regional for all 14 years of its existence, and they likely would not want or be given an opt-out.

Re: How does the Districts system work?
 

Because in a district system, they would be forced to attend 2 districts + the potential of championships. I highly doubt there will be a district event in the western half of Virginia, so this team will have to go to 2-4 away events (no matter where championships is). Given that 388 usually travels to only 1 regional a year, I doubt they would enjoy being forced to go to a 2nd away event and would rather enter in the North Carolina regional.

If championships were in DC, 65/110 teams would not have to stay overnight, while if championships were in Richmond, 30-35/110 teams would not have to stay overnight. That's a huge difference...

Re: How does the Districts system work?
 

as a very small team, with money very hard to come by I'm looking forward to districts hopefully within my time on the team. I will miss the traveling opportunities however.

Re: How does the Districts system work?
 

I think we can all agree that for the cases where a team is included in a district model and has to travel a ways for both district events--and other events are closer--the district system could be vastly improved.

However, I'm quite hopeful that as district models spread, more and more district areas will become open to cross-pollination and having teams from different district areas coming in to compete. Unfortunately, that's probably quite a ways off.

Re: How does the Districts system work?
 

I'm wondering if it would be possible to set up a travel cost sharing system for those teams that are on the edge of districts and would have two travel events. Teams that were close to the center of the district would pay some fee due to the fact that they were near the center and this would be used to help the travel teams afford to attend a second event. Or maybe just have the travel team pay a lower entry fee.
I would think this would help teams to promote team growth on the outskirts of their region and in turn grow enough teams so they could hold their own event and no longer need this travel stipend. Is this something that's ever been considered?

Re: How does the Districts system work?
 

What about cutting Virginia in half? I'm not incredibly familiar with VirginiaFIRST. I'm thinking along the lines of what they did with MAR. It's New Jersey, Delaware, and the eastern half of PA (I'm not sure of exactly where the cutoff is), so there is still the Pittsburgh regional for teams in the western half of the state.

It matters because teams with fewer resources stay closer in the hopes that they don't have to worry about getting a hotel or finding parents willing to drive kids to far regionals. Before MAR, a lot of South Jersey teams opted to attend the Philly regional over the NJ regional because it was closest, even though NJ would've technically been their "home regional."

Not that I know of, but it's not rare to see teams sharing buses to cut down on costs. I'd imagine teams could do something similar to this for district events.

Re: How does the Districts system work?
 

We only have a few minutes between each match, but we made use of every second of it on the practice field. It was enough time to fix any of the small issues we had and to change bumpers/battery, but not enough to adequately fix any major mechanical problems. Those have to be fixed after matches are over for the day, but before the pits close. Luckily, we never had any huge mechanical issues. A shoutout to 75 who fell from the top of the pyramid, but still made it to their next match minutes later. Overall, I think the speed of the events make them much more fun and competitive, though it can be tiring.

Re: How does the Districts system work?
 

That sounds extremely intriguing. The only part I'm worried about is, as you noted, the lack of time to fix the major mechanical issues. 2537 this year didn't have any "major" mechanical issues, but I remember that during an offseason competition last year our silo tube (the large green tube in my profile picture) cracked in two. We fixed it with a lot of tape and glue, but I'm pretty sure we wouldn't have been able to do it within 15 minutes.

Re: How does the Districts system work?
 

Code issues are often harder to fix than mechanical issues. You'd be surprised how quickly you can get things done mechanically when under pressure. But you can't speed up the time it takes to deploy/build down to a cRio. And given that most teams prefer to test their code prior to taking the field, it's often a dealbreaker during short turnarounds.

Re: How does the Districts system work?
 

The goal, if I remember correctly, is for the restrictions to competing only in your district to disappear once more district systems popped up around the country. This would allow teams to travel and have points earned at another district transfer over to the "home regional" (i.e. Bees traveling to MAR and having the points earned go toward FiM rankings). The district system isn't about limitations. It's about expanding the competition model to allow FRC to expand and grow in a more positive, competitive way.

Re: How does the Districts system work?
 

So this would mean that international teams in areas like Latin America, Europe, and Oceania* could potentially have 1 district competition of their own, then travel to the US for a district competition here? With more competitions in local areas, it seems like the district system would be extremely helpful in growing FRC internationally. That's really cool.


*I imagine Canada and Israel could sustain multiple district competitions, and not need to travel internationally.

Re: How does the Districts system work?
 

This could work well IF a single point system could be adopted. This has not been done yet. With NEFIRST coming to the table it is something FIRST HQ needs to look at.

Re: How does the Districts system work?
 

The advent of more and more districts coming online with the district model is going to force HQ's hand on the cross-pollination issue. Its going to start causing problems when you're significantly impacting international teams travelling.

We have a fairly large number of Brazilian, and Mexican teams now, with no regional event to call home. They often choose their regionals based on where it is cheapest for them to travel to: which usually means airport hub cities.

I won't be surprised if we see a Mexican or Brazilian regional (or both) in the relatively near future.

The Pacific Rim region is seeing similar expansion (Singapore, Australia) and their only option really is Hawai'i or big travel trips. A Singaporean team competed in Mississauga this year. That's crazy.

Re: How does the Districts system work?
 

A common point system is not necessary. What is necessary is a common awards system (which already exists) and sharing of information on alliance selection order. As long as the data exists to calculate a team's score using their home district's system, it doesn't matter how the event they went to calculates points.

Re: How does the Districts system work?
 

There was a Brazil (mini) regional in 2007 and 2008.

Re: How does the Districts system work?
 

I'd hope they'd allow overseas international teams especially to opt out of a district or region championship if they so choose. Coming to the US three times--two on short notice--in nine weeks seems a bit much (district, region champs, worlds). Single-district plus region champ registration is already on the table for NEFIRST, and it makes a lot of sense for overseas travelers. It would allow an early US district and a home district and (if they do well enough on that standard) bypass region champs and have time to plan for Worlds. Basically what they do now, but with another event to practice/recruit/iterate/etc at "home". (Alternative is a more NEFIRST setup, with 1 home district, a guaranteed region championship and potentially Worlds, though it means very quick Worlds prep.)

Re: How does the Districts system work?
 

This year there were 9 teams that competed from Asia/the Pacific this season, 6 from Australia, and one each from China, Singapore and Taiwan, and all but two were rookies. In Australia it seems like there were several teams that organized but didn't compete this year, so we'll see how that growth continues next year.

In Mexico, we had 37 teams, most of which went to Texas or California to compete. That's already enough for a regional, so based on that one could reasonably expect a regional there in the near future. Many of those teams are from the area around Mexico City, so maybe a regional would go there, and teams closer to the border would probably continue coming to the US.

Brazil only has 6 teams right now and no rookies this year, so I don't see much happening there anytime soon. Of course I would think Mexico City is easier to do than anywhere in the US, so that could be an option if it happens.

Re: How does the Districts system work?
 

We do have 6 hours to take the robot out of the bag and work on it before each district event (though not for the regional). Also, if any mechanical issues arise, we typically have people working on them while the robot is on the field. Even if the robot is partially disabled, we can still help our alliance, and usually by the time we get back to the pits a working solution has been fabricated.

Again, it is all about planning. We had many code issues, but we planned ahead and as soon as we lifted the robot off the competition field, we began deploying code and headed to the practice field to test it out. You get used to the fast pace very quickly.

Another thing to keep in mind, is with fewer teams, the practice field is open more of the time. We spent the majority of our time on it, to the point where the judges began looking for us there.

Re: How does the Districts system work?
 

I know FiM was pushing for not FiM teams to compete in their events, but FIRST would not allow it. I believe MAR also wishes for non district teams, as well as FiM teams, to compete in MAR events

Re: How does the Districts system work?
 

Sounds great! I'm confident that my team can work to fix it and adapt to the District time spacing if needed. We've got an awesome pit crew :D <3 <3 <3

Re: How does the Districts system work?
 

This might not be the right place for this, but it's a thought I've had for a while...

Let me preface this with I would love to see the borders removed.

This perspective hasn't really been touched anywhere, to my knowledge, but the FiM district system was viewed as an experiment. It still is an experiment, not of the new system itself, but of the effects that the system has over a long period of time. When you're running an experiment you want as few things to change as possible. If you have teams from all over coming into these districts doesn't that ruin your chance for a long term study? One thing you have to remember is that HQ's goals don't necessarily match up with those of any single region. Could HQ have isolated MI so that it could see how the district system effected the cultural side of FIRST? Could it be using MAR as another case study, before it spreads every where?

I could be narrowing in on this because of my anthropological background, but is it possible that they are just being cautious about the new system changing the fundamentals of FIRST?

Re: How does the Districts system work?
 

It sounds as if FIRST HQ is using us as lab rats, to perfect their product. I'm ok with that.

I like cheese...

Re: How does the Districts system work?
 

Alternatively, teams would earn points based on their district's rules. For example, if we were to go to a FiM event, we would be awarded our points based on how MAR distributes them while the rest of the FiM teams would receive points based on how FiM rules.

Of course, a unified system would be nice... :rolleyes:

Re: How does the Districts system work?
 

Lab rats who not only volunteered*, but actually set up the experiment as well. :rolleyes:


*Speaking about the FiM level, not individual teams

Re: How does the Districts system work?
 

They volunteered for and set-up the initial, but not the long term.Two different experiments. Evidence of this is the petition to remove the borders that comes up every year... or even to allow teams to leave the district system when it is obviously a hindrance (the UP debacle.)