Re: Defense in Ultimate Ascent
 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6dmF_R4jlDY

The 31 shots counted the five shots 469 made in autonomous. Their tele-op total was 26. 217 rarely hung, and did not do so in that match.

Re: Defense in Ultimate Ascent
 

That is *very* impressive.

Re: Defense in Ultimate Ascent
 

It really all depends. I saw in the Boston regional that defense was played by few robots. It was mostly 3 v 3 shooting matches, and it wasn't a surprise to see a score near 150. In the NYC regional it was the traditional game of defense and offense, and there the scores rarely made it past 95. Whether or not a robot chooses to play offense of defense matters not as long as the robots out preform the opposing alliance. If its 2 reds offensive 1 red defensive vs 3 blues offensive, as long as the defensive robot does its job well, and outperforms the robot its blocking, the match becomes a 2v2 match all offensive. In that case it matters only which pair of robots performs the best. If the third red robot decided to play offense then it matters only which team performs best. Whether or not robots play offense or defense it all really depends on how well the robots can function by themselves, and with others.

Re: Defense in Ultimate Ascent
 

If a cycler is getting shut down for a full 45 seconds, they should re-examine their driving. Cycling is arguably one of the least defendable strategies, and at a high level, accuracy is really high. I expect at least 2 of the Einstein alliances to have at least 2 dedicated cyclers, because a roomba's without discs on the floor become cyclers (469 style), and the open field is easy to get across, even with most defence.

Re: Defense in Ultimate Ascent
 

I seem to remember 3145 blocking 2471 in finals matches ;) but you guys still won despite our efforts

Re: Defense in Ultimate Ascent
 

At the STL regional there was not a cycler that could maneuver around me when I was playing defense on them. The only robot that could get past me was 3284 and that was because they could push me out of the way

Re: Defense in Ultimate Ascent
 

One thing people are going to need to be very aware of in building an Einstein worthy alliance is the possibility that you will run out of game pieces before the match ends. We have seen matches where no discs were left behind the walls, but do not discount the possibility that two really good cycling robots and a floor pickup could score every single disc on their side, in addition to a few on the other side. At that point, you're going to either regret not having any big point climbers or the 8+ points you threw away by not giving discs all of their potential value (3 for white, 5 for red).

An interesting defensive strategy could actually be forcing robots to go to the 2 point goals or abandon pyramid goal disc scoring and actually make a team play itself out of contention for the match.

Scouting at championships is going to be quite the saga, because not only are there going to be a lot of great robots, the "middle class" of robots have had a better year and the Wild Card system makes the event more competitive as well. There are going to be 20 or so robots in every division that will look second-pick worthy on paper but finding the best one for each alliance is going to be interesting.

I think an ideal second pick search begins by establishing a "floor" based on the abilities of the other two partners. The third robot needs to be able to contribute to a perfect autonomous routine by never missing its 3 discs and maybe can pickup the center discs or sit on top of them to keep them away from the other alliance. It would have to "cover" cycles the other robots can't complete every match, and 10 point hang. After that, I can imagine a lot of evaluation on a team's ability to play defense while transitioning between cycles, how well the team could commit to load-zone/blocking defense, man-to-man defense, lane-to-center (what I call "contact zone") defense, and zone pyramid defense (those are the four types of defense to play that I can see, feel free to add or subtract). Driver communication with the coach and coach communication with alliance partners for evolving the strategy in qualifications is also a quality that will be looked at.

(If you would like to see me shamelessly and subtly plug the Team 422's machine qualities as a robot specifically designed to be an ideal second pick at Championships, feel free to PM or just watch my posts all week.)

Re: Defense in Ultimate Ascent
 

+1 to that, we could have averaged more without some motor troubles on Saturday that we unfortunately brought onto ourselves. We also noticed that when we had our shooter up to speed our flywheel acted as a gyroscope and helped prevent us from being tipped.

I think that this year defense is whatever you make of it. If you choose to try and actively defend a cycle shooter, you can do it. Maybe not to the extent that a FCS could be blocked (nice job 3003;) ) but you could do it. You could also though just try and purely outscore a team because unlike last year whatever you score doesn't become available to the other alliance. Heck, 48 even showed us that you can defend a 30 pt. climber that wants to start climbing immediately after auton.

There have been alliances that have tried to get up in auton and then hold the lead. There have been the more traditional style alliances (469, 3539, 217) that used 2 Offense and 1 Defense. There have been teams that will just outscore you (2056, 1114, 1325).

I think that this is the reason that this year's game is my favorite: There are so many different combinations that you could use to effectively compete.

Re: Defense in Ultimate Ascent
 

You know...with a disciplined driver, the right kind of robot and specific scouting data about your opponents, slowing down two pyramid cyclers can be easier than slowing down one pyramid cycler.

Re: Defense in Ultimate Ascent
 

From a defensive driver perspective, I'd say that a solid drive train that's fast and a nearly 60" bot could play passable defense...maybe not against Einstein caliber robots, but could play decently against cyclers. I found that defense in UA doesn't necessarily equate to blocking shots (Though it does help to shut down teams), but also owning the lane to the protected feeder station. As long as you can waylay them back and forth, you might be able to cut a trip or two out of their match.

Just my $.02.

Re: Defense in Ultimate Ascent
 

Well, this isn't an example from Ultimate Ascent, but it shows how effective defense can shut down the best teams in FRC:

In 2011, 1114 had one of the most effective scoring machines in the world. 1114 is also known for not only having incredible robots perennially, but also for having some of the best drivers in FIRST, every season. They are usually an unstoppable force on the field, but here in the semi-finals of the Galileo Division that year, team 469 was able to play incredibly effective defense and shut down one best tube scorers in all of FIRST.

Watch this video from 1:10 onwards: http://vimeo.com/24048339

As 1114 goes is returning from their feeder slot with a white tube, 469 decided to stick to their side, enforcing the best positional defense I have ever seen. 469 was the top scorer on that alliance, but elected to play defense as part of our strategy. This is how effective the defense was: after 1:10, 1114 was not able to cross the field to their rack. 469 did not let them out of their sights. Both team had outstanding drivers, but 469 was able to play defense not where 1114 was at that second, but cover where they were going to be, essentially corralling and trapping the robot on the far side of the field. The defense played by 469 is what won the match and the series.

The best drivers in FRC can be shut down by the best defense. I can see this type of defense being very effective against cycling robots this year at champs, given the huge open mid-field territory, where defensive robots can screen cyclers on their way to their shooting spot. I would not be surprised if mid-field positional defense is the deciding factor in more than one elimination match at champs this year.

Re: Defense in Ultimate Ascent
 

Our collector mechanism is very familiar with your..."efforts." :yikes:

Your driver actually came and signed the bar that got bent by your climbing hooks. :) It was fun. On a side note, why didn't you use your 30 point climb after that practice round we had with you?

Has anyone noticed how 469 loads discs at the feeder station? They have four discs in there within 2 seconds! The human player shoves two nested frisbees through the slot at once. It's remarkably efficient and a huge contributing factor to their ability to squeeze in seven runs. It's like they only have to bump the feeder station and there are already four frisbees in there.

Re: Defense in Ultimate Ascent
 

That is some prime defense footage. Thank you for that.

Defense will be important at high levels, no doubt. On Einstein, though, the type of defense that will be most valuable is the fast, maneuverable defense similar to what 16 performed on Einstein last year. If you choose to play defense against the top-notch cyclers that will no doubt end up on Einstein, you have to be fast enough to keep up with those bots and actually be effective in preventing them from scoring. It can't be the 10 second "I'm going to bother you" defense, it has to keep up with the cyclers all over the field or make effective use of the pyramid-wall zones.

The golden bot, as usual, will be the ones that can cycle consistently and quickly, but are also pushy. These bots will be able to push opposing bots to play defense WHILE they are cycling. Personally that type of defense-offense combination from cyclers are what I think will win Einstein.

FCS... Not sure if we'll see any end up on Einstein.

Re: Defense in Ultimate Ascent
 

I agree with the assertion that the golden bot will be able to cycle while being pushy. I disagree that they will use that power to play defense; they will use their pushiness to push through defense, if they are truly a good cycler.

Re: Defense in Ultimate Ascent
 

+1 This. Traffic and congestion is important for cyclers. Really coordinated cyclers can work around it, but a well placed defender can slow down the whole opposing alliance, not just a single robot.