Defense in Ultimate Ascent
 

We've watched 7 weeks of Ultimate Ascent and everyone is getting ready for one more. I've heard over the course of the season that UA is an 'incredibly defense heavy game' and a game where 'defense is completely ineffective and useless'. I'm curious as to how these arguments are backed up and if there are any numbers behind either of them.

So my question is: How useful is playing defense in Ultimate Ascent? What techniques are there that people do that are not useful? Which techniques for defense actually are worth deploying?

Before this thread gets started, I need to qualify that 'defense' is a massive umbrella in Ultimate Ascent: There is full court shooter defense, Cycler defense and 50 pt climber defense, etc... all are certainly different and each has its own intricacies. It may be valid to say that defense on cyclers isn't worth playing but it certainly may be on full court shooters.

Re: Defense in Ultimate Ascent
 

Ultimate Ascent is so much fun because there isn't a straightforward answer to this question. IMHO You need a tall defender to beat a really good FCS, but you need offense to beat a really good alliance of 3 cyclers.

Not so bold prediction for CMP: The race to Einstein will be won or lost on the way back up the serpentine.

Re: Defense in Ultimate Ascent
 

Undefended any good FCS will win this happened at Portland and Seattle.

Re: Defense in Ultimate Ascent
 

This is another interesting thing about Ultimate Ascent.

In most games, something like a FCS would be unstoppable force. Imagine a robot in Rebound Rumble that could sink three-pointers from that feeding slot, it would be king of the field.

But that super fancy FCS this year? All you need is a couple pool noodles to stop it. All of a sudden, even rookie teams with barely functioning robots who can slap on some noodles or angle aluminum and polycarb can stand up to the best bots out there.

Re: Defense in Ultimate Ascent
 

Although I didn't watch Portland or Seattle, not defending a FCS is not a bright move, because it is a so easy to do.

Evident at MSC when (I forget which team) put on pool noodles to defend against 67!

Although UA is a defence heavy game, I think it is more so an offensive/driving heavy game. An alliance with 3 strong cyclers or FCS is definitely stronger than 2 and 1 defensive robot. (This relies of course on strong Auto/Climbing and of course 2nd pick). The thing about UA (and FIRST games in general) is that it really depends on what your opposing alliance is composed of.

The exciting thing about UA is that Alliance Selection will be very interesting! It will be hard to predict which teams are going to be picked based on which strategies they want to employ. I anticipate some perennially strong teams being lost in the rabbit hole.

Re: Defense in Ultimate Ascent
 

I agree with this.

I also think that scouting is even more important prior to going to CMP.
Teams at the very least need to know who the climber/dumpers, FCS and effective floor feeders are prior. There are just soo many.
You cant go into a match against an unknown effective FCS, and expect to win that match.

Re: Defense in Ultimate Ascent
 

Not entirely true. Defense was certainly attempted in Seattle, but what really sealed the deal was a strong third robot who could play as a screen for the FCS. 492 kept blockers off our FCS (948) and left them free to pound at the goal.

In Central, our partners 1425 had plenty of defense played on them, but something they were good at was moving and shooting around blockers. They have a really skilled drive team and scored under pressure, unlike most FCS.

FCS's will have a tough time at champs, especially if that is all they do. It is really crucial that you can fill other roles if need be, especially in quals. Floor loading and cycle running will give both 2471 and 2130 a leg up at champs. They might not have the accuracy and point capability that 948 had in Seattle, but the versatility will be just as important, if not more so.

Re: Defense in Ultimate Ascent
 

First off, that was 217. Second, I think it depends entirely on how evenly teams are distributed into divisions. At MSC, some excellent teams didn't make it to eliminations.

You say that interesting alliance selections make Ultimate Ascent interesting. I could make the same case for Rebound Rumble. Some teams were picked just because they were a wide bot - if they had been long, the triple balance would have been impossible.

Re: Defense in Ultimate Ascent
 

Defense has actually probably had one of the largest impacts in Ultimate Ascent. At kickoff, many people thought that because of the placing of the pyramids, it was insane to get anywhere near robots shooting near their pyramid. However, with the rise of full court shooters, defense quickly became a good idea. Taller robots with more material higher up were successfully able to block full court shooters, however alliances without them were knocked out consistantly because of the sheer scoring power of full court shooter. For example, 3173 had an average score of 80 at the Boston Regional. This was not an easy team to beat, regardless of who their alliance partners were, this is shown in 3173s continuous success throughout the elims in both the Finger Lakes and Boston Regional. The only way to have any chance at stopping full court shooters, like 3173 or 148, is to have a defensive tall robot, or as shown in silicon valley, have them fall over on the way to their feeder station.

Throughout the build season, the idea of defensive robots was radically under estimated. Nobody thought that any team would pull off a successful full court shooter, so nobody would see any need for defense. It just goes to show that you can never overestimate the abilities of FIRST teams.

The one robot design that is defense based that I believe would have a great impact would be a fan robot. This is basically a robot with a gigantic fan on top of it, that would blow vertically and blow all the discs off their paths. It would be the ultimate defense robot because it could defend any sort of shooting from any area on the field. It could just station itself beneath the opposing alliances goals, and prevent the alliance from scoring at all. This robot would probably not have a whole lot of luck getting a high ranking because it's design is not conducive to getting a whole lot of auto points or winning all of its matches, but it would definantly be picked. It would probably be picked as a 1st pick by the top seed, with the assumption that their robot was effective in matches, and they would be the first team picked not only because they can basically shut down most of an alliance by themselves, but also because none of the top seeds could risk going against them in elims.

Re: Defense in Ultimate Ascent
 

FCS can be shut down with height - but so can runner robots! Most of them shoot through the pyramid, with the disc coming out just below the second rung. A well-placed 60" robot can at least deflect those shots easily.

Harrassing climbots and runners (like how 48 did at FLR and CRR*) is also a great defensive strategy.

In addition, 'jamming' teams at the chokepoint by the pyramid as they come out of the feeding station (I equate this strategy to a defensive back working on a wide receiver near the line of scrimmage) has proven to be a respectable defense-on-the-fly technique.

*Interesting to note that at QCR, 48 really didn't ever take a defensive position in eliminations, other than a few bump-and-runs. This game is different at every event, and with every alliance pairing. It's the most dynamic and strategic FRC game I've seen (2005-present).

Re: Defense in Ultimate Ascent
 

We have been effective at cycling shots at the pyramid. But we are building an actuatable wall for defending that we can easily attach or remove. It is a critical ability. We are going to try to be the team that can block and still score significant points.

Re: Defense in Ultimate Ascent
 

There was a fan rookie robot at GTR-West (4716 who qualified for the championships as a GTR-West finalist due to the Wildcard). Karthik refereed to them as a Peacock due to the tail fan the robot had. They can only play defense but against the 1114/2056 juggernaut they were not fast enough to keep up (1114 would elude them by darting under the pyramid which they were too tall to get under)and because they did not score any discs in autonomous it put their alliance at a tremendous disadvantage.

Re: Defense in Ultimate Ascent
 

They were a great defensive robot! I'd go as far to say that they were the integral part to making it to the finals. They played lights-out D on Lo-ellen in Quarters and shut-down Theory6 in Semi's.

They would have been good enough to stop 2056/4814/1114, except they made a few mistakes that 1114 capitalized on. Instead of staying closer to the center of the field, they attempted to defend Sims in between the loading station and the pyramid. Since their "Peacock" could not get under the pyramid, 1114 took that opportunity to evade them. I think if they would have stayed closer to the center, their defense on 1114 would have been magnified.

...A great defensive robot!

Re: Defense in Ultimate Ascent
 

How tough is it to play defense on a climb and dump robot?

After poking around in the rules and the Q&A for a while, here's what I've gathered:

Letting the climber push you into their pyramid is bad; probably gives you a technical and gives them a free 30 point climb.

It is possible to legally play 2 on 1 defense against a single robot.

It is legal to block one of the feeder stations, but not both at the same time. It is not a penalty to touch the opposing feeder station as long as you're not also touching an opposing robot that is in the feeder station.

Those indicate to me that climb + dump robots should be defended on their way to the feeder station and back. But after they reach their own auto zone again, it gets really risky to try to defend them unless you think their drive is too weak to push you around.

Re: Defense in Ultimate Ascent
 

Defensive strategies will be a factor but the days of picking a robot to just play defense and hang for 10 are long gone. There are too many ways to score points, too many robots that can do it, and too many alliances that will need to be taken down with sheer firepower.

I don't expect any "pure" FCSes on Einstein (robots that can't cycle / hang past 10 / do something else well without tipping).

Re: Defense in Ultimate Ascent
 

As a FCS team attending the championship, we are hopeful that we could be seen as a great late 2nd round pick for two other strong teams, forcing another robot to be taken out of play to sit in front of us. This could make the game effectively 2 vs 2 except for autonomous and the endgame. In this way, the robot could be a "defender" in that we would prevent another robot from taking action during the teleoperated period.

Re: Defense in Ultimate Ascent
 

I don't think this is necessarily true... Even if you put up a perfect defense against a FCS, it is still going to score at least as many points as the defender. More likely, it will score at least a couple of Frisbees, meaning that its alliance partners (who are effectively playing a 2 on 2 game) will have an advantage. The key will be for the FCS to no mindlessly shoot into a pool noodle. Rather, it must move around a little and find open shots; the worst thing it can do it drain its allies disks by needlessly firing away - and taking them away from undefended cyclers.

I am not saying that there *will* be a pure FCS on Einstein, only that it is a real possibility.

Re: Defense in Ultimate Ascent
 

After putting up 7 discs in autonomous, our team will gladly sit in front of your FCS, blocking your shots and your protected feeder station for the cyclers.

This strategy leaves the field relatively uncongested for the alliance defending the FCS, and pretty blocked up for the FCS alliance; even though it removes a bot from scoring, it is still inhibits the FCS alliance beyond just blocking full-court shots.

Re: Defense in Ultimate Ascent
 

Remember: Both alliances will likely have robots with a 7 disk autonomous routines. Overall, in elimination, scores should be reasonably close after the 15 second autonomous period. It then becomes a contest to see which team of three can score more points. If you spend the entire 2 minute blocking us, you will score zero teleop points. We will likely score 3-5 disks (down from about 40). Therefore, in teleop, our team would outscore yours. Yes, our protected feeder would be plugged up if we just stood there. However, the unprotected one would not be. Unless you are going to remove yet another robot from offense, our partners could use the unprotected feeder unhindered, so the loss of the protected one would be inconsequential.

Re: Defense in Ultimate Ascent
 

That sounds like a decent strategy and would result in a net gain for your alliance. The problem is that all of the teams with a 7 disk auto must fit under the 30” pyramid bar. I haven’t seen one that can then extend up to 84” and effectively block a tall full court shooter. If you are one of those teams and decide to go that route I would suggest you reconsider. I think your floor pickup (which you must have for the 7 disk) would be wasted sitting parked on the opposite end of the field.

Re: Defense in Ultimate Ascent
 

Has anyone thought of what would happen if three FCSs made it on to one alliance? Many FCSs have an arced shot and could still score points around the pyramid from the inside feeder station. It would then take the entire opposing alliance to defend on them all. If any of them are free to shoot, then they could certainly beat out any cycle bots not defending them.

Although it probably won't occur, it would be very cool to see three FCSs on one alliance unopposed. It would be a sight to behold if there were that many Frisbees flying cross court. There would be none left within the first 20 seconds or less.

Re: Defense in Ultimate Ascent
 

I would disagree that they would beat out any cycling robots. No full court shooter has proven to be more accurate than good cycling bots so far. If neither team had a ground pickup I would put my money on 3 cycling bots over 3 FCS any day. 3 cyclers easily get through all of the disks in 2 minutes. Even 2 good cyclers can get through all of the disks. And I bet they would make more 3 pointers than the FCSers would.

Re: Defense in Ultimate Ascent
 

Why are we only focusing on defending FCS? It's really easy to defend most cycling robots as well.

Remember that human players acquired the balls when the other alliance scored. A full court shooter would not have been particularly game breaking in 2012.


In order to block a FCS, they're on their offensive side of the field. If the FCS leaves to run cycles/hang, 2474 could use their ground pickup to scoop up any blocked shots.

Re: Defense in Ultimate Ascent
 

If you have 3 FCS like 987, 1310, and 469 who all also have floor pickup, that will be a sight to see. Granted it will never happen in elims, but it could be very interestkng in quals. I can see all 51 disks scored.

Re: Defense in Ultimate Ascent
 

This year our robot was planned to be a three point shooter and a thirty point climber. Then tragedy struck and our climber and feeder broke during the first qualification match. So by destiny we became a defense robot, and it was amazing. We could go underneath the pyramid and since we had a 6wd pneumatic drivetrain we were near impossible to push. We shut down Raven Robotics and they were the #1 shooter there, also a pyramid shooter. We also shut down 1706 which was a fcs, and their shooter shattered lexan at 80%. The only team we didn't shut down that we attempted to was 3284 and that was because they had a two speed high traction 4 cim drivetrain, though we made it were they only did two trips from feeder station to pyramid. We never scored one point in teleop yet we were the second pick of the regional. :yikes:

So i would have to say that defense is extremely important in UA and that a good defensive robot can win or lose a match for an alliance.

FCS blocking is a must for any alliance, without a FCS blocker you should kiss your chances of winning goodbye.

Pyramid shooting blocking is extremely plausible and easy. We just would wait until a robot got by their feeder station and then we kept them on that side of the field by going back and forth under the pyramid.

We also sat in front of a FCS on our alliance that way the opposition blocker couldn't block our FCS shots. Very effective!

Re: Defense in Ultimate Ascent
 

I think 67 has the accuracy to beat out the best cycle bots and once 948 gets set up, they can most certainly do it. I would also say that 2471 and 195 (both named their robots "oddjob" :cool: ) have the potential to outscore cycle bots.

Keep in mind that I'm only speaking of what can occur if these machines go unchecked. If being defended, I completely agree with pntbll1313's statement that a cycle bot can make more shots in a match.

Which good cyclers can get through all the discs? During elims, with defense being played, most cycle bots can make 4 trips. If two of them do that, that's 32 discs. If not defended, the fastest cycle bots can make 5 trips. In that case, you're right because they can run through 40 discs. Has this happened?

Re: Defense in Ultimate Ascent
 

I'm pretty sure they were running out of discs at MSC even with no full court shooters. I didn't see all of the matches so someone else would have to confirm. There are teams that hit 5 cycles with little or no defense and I would guess a few hit 6. In a match with little defense played on us we were able to make 5 trips and hit 19/20 in the 3 pointer. I haven't seen any FCSs that go over 90% yet.

Re: Defense in Ultimate Ascent
 

Is this true? Please explain.

Re: Defense in Ultimate Ascent
 

The middle discs are under the bar, and the frontmost discs are past a pair of bars. Can't shoot seven discs without being able to go under in some capacity. Doesn't mean you can't get bigger later.

Re: Defense in Ultimate Ascent
 

Incorrect, You can do a 7-disc using the centerline frisbees. You don't have to go under the pyramid.

Re: Defense in Ultimate Ascent
 

I highly doubt there will be more than 2 disks on the center line once the elims start.

Re: Defense in Ultimate Ascent
 

Under the assumption that the opposing alliance is leaving 2 extra discs on the center line? If you've got 2 alliance partners shooting solely from the front on the pyramid, it's likely you have other difficulties. Unless you mean the 2 center line discs and the 2 front ones? That's a heck of a drive, but would be really impressive!

Re: Defense in Ultimate Ascent
 

That has never occurred to me, that surely would be a sight to see!

Re: Defense in Ultimate Ascent
 

It seems like it'll be rare, especially in the championship elims, that either alliance will have bots that don't start with 3 disks in autonomous.

On another note, FCS blocking will become extraordinarily tricky. At Chesapeake, our alliance employed a net capable of blocking 329's shots, but a tenacious counter-defense actually pushed our blocker into the protected feeder; we received a technical for that, and that cost us the first final.
From there, I think our blocker was just too scared of the same thing happening that they weren't willing to get close enough to block.

If a blocker can be implicated in a technical for being close enough to push into the feeder zone, what kind of blocker can pull off successful FCS defense?

Re: Defense in Ultimate Ascent
 

Did you ask the ref about whether or not rule 18-1 applied?

Re: Defense in Ultimate Ascent
 

469 has done 7 cycles in a match. There are several others who have done 6.

Re: Defense in Ultimate Ascent
 

But how many can a cycle bot do with strong defense? I've seen bots literally get shut down for 45 seconds on a single cycle because of defensive bots single-handedly blockading them on one side of the field. The higher into the championship alliances go, the more experienced and elite defensive teams will crop up; bots that have strong drivetrains and moderate-level scoring could convert as well.

Re: Defense in Ultimate Ascent
 

Yes; he said that the intention was to change the gamestate (blocking), not cause a foul, so it didn't fall under G18. Also, G30 (the rule about touching bots in the protected station or the pyramid), doesn't include a clause about who pushed who, just if it happened. Our alliance didn't argue with the decision.

My primary question is: will G30 take precedence over G18 at the championship as well? If so, what kind of defense can people imagine for FCS?

Re: Defense in Ultimate Ascent
 

I beg to differ on this one.
This has happened to us many times this past season or I witnessed it in matches of other teams.
There is a sweet spot that a 60" robot cant defend.
And if drivers have a hard time finding it fast and consistently, shooting from the rear corner eliminates any chance a 60" blocker has in defending shots fired.

Re: Defense in Ultimate Ascent
 

Do you know in which competition and match they did this? I'd like to look it up.

Re: Defense in Ultimate Ascent
 

At Central Washington, this was a G18-1 techincal against the bot helping the FCS.... We definintely will want clarity from the referees before play starts.

Re: Defense in Ultimate Ascent
 

You're comparing the strongest defense robots (late elims at champs) to "a cycle bot". Yes, some cycle bots can be shut down readily. But late elim championship cyclers are almost by definition more experienced and elite with good drivetrains--as defenders get better, so do their offense counterparts. I wouldn't be at all surprised by 4 or 5 under good defense, given what's doable by such teams normally. And that's not even considering what happens when there are 2 or 3 going at once.

As for alternative counter-FCS strategies--among them, score all your discs and have a better auton and end game.

Re: Defense in Ultimate Ascent
 

Q623 Q. Do DISCS under the active control of a ROBOT count towards the limits defined by the PLAYING CONFIGURATION? STARTING CONFIGURATION?
A. No. No.

But maybe one a 70" robot can. Use three preload discs sticking up at 70" to make a under-pyramid blocker.

Re: Defense in Ultimate Ascent
 

Michigan State Championship. SF2-1 (and perhaps other matches). After their alliance shot 15/15 in autonomous (90 points!!!), they ran six full cycles to the human loader. Their seventh batch of discs was picked up off the floor. They then ran back to the human loader to grab the one disc remaining at the station, shot it (it missed), and hung for 10 points at the buzzer. By my count, they hit 31 of 34 shots they took in the match (counting autonomous). That's FCS-type numbers, and they're a cycler. Nuts.

Re: Defense in Ultimate Ascent
 

I didn't see it up on YouTube, yet - I'll keep trying. However,
90pts Autonomous + 31x3 Teleop +10 hang = 193 pts...
Team score was 216. Both 217 and 3539 can hang for 10 - which they presumably did? 193+20 = 213.

This would suggest that 217 and 3539 together only put up 3 teleop points... Unless they did nothing but play defense, this is unlikely.. Are you sure about the 6 cycles? That's 1 cycle every 20 seconds, followed by a hang... Most very, very good cylcers can barely do 5...

Re: Defense in Ultimate Ascent
 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6dmF_R4jlDY

The 31 shots counted the five shots 469 made in autonomous. Their tele-op total was 26. 217 rarely hung, and did not do so in that match.

Re: Defense in Ultimate Ascent
 

That is *very* impressive.

Re: Defense in Ultimate Ascent
 

It really all depends. I saw in the Boston regional that defense was played by few robots. It was mostly 3 v 3 shooting matches, and it wasn't a surprise to see a score near 150. In the NYC regional it was the traditional game of defense and offense, and there the scores rarely made it past 95. Whether or not a robot chooses to play offense of defense matters not as long as the robots out preform the opposing alliance. If its 2 reds offensive 1 red defensive vs 3 blues offensive, as long as the defensive robot does its job well, and outperforms the robot its blocking, the match becomes a 2v2 match all offensive. In that case it matters only which pair of robots performs the best. If the third red robot decided to play offense then it matters only which team performs best. Whether or not robots play offense or defense it all really depends on how well the robots can function by themselves, and with others.

Re: Defense in Ultimate Ascent
 

If a cycler is getting shut down for a full 45 seconds, they should re-examine their driving. Cycling is arguably one of the least defendable strategies, and at a high level, accuracy is really high. I expect at least 2 of the Einstein alliances to have at least 2 dedicated cyclers, because a roomba's without discs on the floor become cyclers (469 style), and the open field is easy to get across, even with most defence.

Re: Defense in Ultimate Ascent
 

I seem to remember 3145 blocking 2471 in finals matches ;) but you guys still won despite our efforts

Re: Defense in Ultimate Ascent
 

At the STL regional there was not a cycler that could maneuver around me when I was playing defense on them. The only robot that could get past me was 3284 and that was because they could push me out of the way

Re: Defense in Ultimate Ascent
 

One thing people are going to need to be very aware of in building an Einstein worthy alliance is the possibility that you will run out of game pieces before the match ends. We have seen matches where no discs were left behind the walls, but do not discount the possibility that two really good cycling robots and a floor pickup could score every single disc on their side, in addition to a few on the other side. At that point, you're going to either regret not having any big point climbers or the 8+ points you threw away by not giving discs all of their potential value (3 for white, 5 for red).

An interesting defensive strategy could actually be forcing robots to go to the 2 point goals or abandon pyramid goal disc scoring and actually make a team play itself out of contention for the match.

Scouting at championships is going to be quite the saga, because not only are there going to be a lot of great robots, the "middle class" of robots have had a better year and the Wild Card system makes the event more competitive as well. There are going to be 20 or so robots in every division that will look second-pick worthy on paper but finding the best one for each alliance is going to be interesting.

I think an ideal second pick search begins by establishing a "floor" based on the abilities of the other two partners. The third robot needs to be able to contribute to a perfect autonomous routine by never missing its 3 discs and maybe can pickup the center discs or sit on top of them to keep them away from the other alliance. It would have to "cover" cycles the other robots can't complete every match, and 10 point hang. After that, I can imagine a lot of evaluation on a team's ability to play defense while transitioning between cycles, how well the team could commit to load-zone/blocking defense, man-to-man defense, lane-to-center (what I call "contact zone") defense, and zone pyramid defense (those are the four types of defense to play that I can see, feel free to add or subtract). Driver communication with the coach and coach communication with alliance partners for evolving the strategy in qualifications is also a quality that will be looked at.

(If you would like to see me shamelessly and subtly plug the Team 422's machine qualities as a robot specifically designed to be an ideal second pick at Championships, feel free to PM or just watch my posts all week.)

Re: Defense in Ultimate Ascent
 

+1 to that, we could have averaged more without some motor troubles on Saturday that we unfortunately brought onto ourselves. We also noticed that when we had our shooter up to speed our flywheel acted as a gyroscope and helped prevent us from being tipped.

I think that this year defense is whatever you make of it. If you choose to try and actively defend a cycle shooter, you can do it. Maybe not to the extent that a FCS could be blocked (nice job 3003;) ) but you could do it. You could also though just try and purely outscore a team because unlike last year whatever you score doesn't become available to the other alliance. Heck, 48 even showed us that you can defend a 30 pt. climber that wants to start climbing immediately after auton.

There have been alliances that have tried to get up in auton and then hold the lead. There have been the more traditional style alliances (469, 3539, 217) that used 2 Offense and 1 Defense. There have been teams that will just outscore you (2056, 1114, 1325).

I think that this is the reason that this year's game is my favorite: There are so many different combinations that you could use to effectively compete.

Re: Defense in Ultimate Ascent
 

You know...with a disciplined driver, the right kind of robot and specific scouting data about your opponents, slowing down two pyramid cyclers can be easier than slowing down one pyramid cycler.

Re: Defense in Ultimate Ascent
 

From a defensive driver perspective, I'd say that a solid drive train that's fast and a nearly 60" bot could play passable defense...maybe not against Einstein caliber robots, but could play decently against cyclers. I found that defense in UA doesn't necessarily equate to blocking shots (Though it does help to shut down teams), but also owning the lane to the protected feeder station. As long as you can waylay them back and forth, you might be able to cut a trip or two out of their match.

Just my $.02.

Re: Defense in Ultimate Ascent
 

Well, this isn't an example from Ultimate Ascent, but it shows how effective defense can shut down the best teams in FRC:

In 2011, 1114 had one of the most effective scoring machines in the world. 1114 is also known for not only having incredible robots perennially, but also for having some of the best drivers in FIRST, every season. They are usually an unstoppable force on the field, but here in the semi-finals of the Galileo Division that year, team 469 was able to play incredibly effective defense and shut down one best tube scorers in all of FIRST.

Watch this video from 1:10 onwards: http://vimeo.com/24048339

As 1114 goes is returning from their feeder slot with a white tube, 469 decided to stick to their side, enforcing the best positional defense I have ever seen. 469 was the top scorer on that alliance, but elected to play defense as part of our strategy. This is how effective the defense was: after 1:10, 1114 was not able to cross the field to their rack. 469 did not let them out of their sights. Both team had outstanding drivers, but 469 was able to play defense not where 1114 was at that second, but cover where they were going to be, essentially corralling and trapping the robot on the far side of the field. The defense played by 469 is what won the match and the series.

The best drivers in FRC can be shut down by the best defense. I can see this type of defense being very effective against cycling robots this year at champs, given the huge open mid-field territory, where defensive robots can screen cyclers on their way to their shooting spot. I would not be surprised if mid-field positional defense is the deciding factor in more than one elimination match at champs this year.

Re: Defense in Ultimate Ascent
 

Our collector mechanism is very familiar with your..."efforts." :yikes:

Your driver actually came and signed the bar that got bent by your climbing hooks. :) It was fun. On a side note, why didn't you use your 30 point climb after that practice round we had with you?

Has anyone noticed how 469 loads discs at the feeder station? They have four discs in there within 2 seconds! The human player shoves two nested frisbees through the slot at once. It's remarkably efficient and a huge contributing factor to their ability to squeeze in seven runs. It's like they only have to bump the feeder station and there are already four frisbees in there.

Re: Defense in Ultimate Ascent
 

That is some prime defense footage. Thank you for that.

Defense will be important at high levels, no doubt. On Einstein, though, the type of defense that will be most valuable is the fast, maneuverable defense similar to what 16 performed on Einstein last year. If you choose to play defense against the top-notch cyclers that will no doubt end up on Einstein, you have to be fast enough to keep up with those bots and actually be effective in preventing them from scoring. It can't be the 10 second "I'm going to bother you" defense, it has to keep up with the cyclers all over the field or make effective use of the pyramid-wall zones.

The golden bot, as usual, will be the ones that can cycle consistently and quickly, but are also pushy. These bots will be able to push opposing bots to play defense WHILE they are cycling. Personally that type of defense-offense combination from cyclers are what I think will win Einstein.

FCS... Not sure if we'll see any end up on Einstein.

Re: Defense in Ultimate Ascent
 

I agree with the assertion that the golden bot will be able to cycle while being pushy. I disagree that they will use that power to play defense; they will use their pushiness to push through defense, if they are truly a good cycler.

Re: Defense in Ultimate Ascent
 

+1 This. Traffic and congestion is important for cyclers. Really coordinated cyclers can work around it, but a well placed defender can slow down the whole opposing alliance, not just a single robot.

Re: Defense in Ultimate Ascent
 

Team 4054 had an amazing defensive robot this year. We went against them one match and we could only make one trip back to the feeder station even though we were one of the fastest robots at our regional. They would shoot for 12 autonomous points and have a 10 point climb and then they would shut down any team on the opposing alliance that tried to score. They ended seeding 5th. Defense is important in UA.

Re: Defense in Ultimate Ascent
 

I concur. With the number of restricted zones, I've found that the best/most potent defense comes from zone defense rather than traditional man-to-man (or bot-to-bot if you will) defense. Stop all opposing teams from entering or leaving their feeder station. Can easily add a good 5-15 seconds per entry/exit if done right, meaning an additional 10-30 seconds per cycle. If the defender is a short bot, that allows them to cut under their pyramid to block a feeder bot from going around the long way, making their defense even more effective.

Defense like this can turn a 5-cycle bot (or a pair) into a 2-3 cycle bot(s).

Something that alot of teams seem to forget is that the defender is allowed to be in the feeder station and touching the feeder bot as long as the feeder bot isn't in the feeder station. And since most bots are longer than the feeder station is deep, you can actually use the backwall to help you keep them out. But goodness be careful you don't get boxed in by the opposing robot's teammate, or you'll be a sitting duck for penalties.

Re: Defense in Ultimate Ascent
 

This is a nice game for beating zone D. There are just so many zones--coordinated offensive coaches can make even smart and well driven defenders waste a lot of time. If offensive bots avoid joining the same jam, even 2-3 cycle bots can keep the flow running pretty well. I'm not going to fight you for a feeder station when I can load under defense from the unprotected one, or (particularly if my ally you also haven't stopped is there), box you at the protected and spin in. Play either pyramid corridor and I have at least 3 choices: spin through, cut under to the other side, or go under and out the middle. Etc.*

*Ok, so it helps we drive swerve and don't telegraph directions. But it's really anyone's game--there's no guaranteed shutdown anymore than there's no guaranteed counter-D.

Re: Defense in Ultimate Ascent
 

As the coach of a defensive team...thanks for the info ;)

Re: Defense in Ultimate Ascent
 

There's nothing new about it (nor is it complete)--anyone getting 3+ runs has been doing it or a variation for 7 weeks. The information isn't what the options are, it's which ones teams will take. Good offensive bots won't forecast this.

Re: Defense in Ultimate Ascent
 

Right, inside tip is that when a top offensive bot's coach says "Back to the feeder station" that actually means do a pirouette, a couple of evasive maneuvers, then magically climb and dump for 50.

Just kidding, but there's nothing new about that strategy. Those are really the only 3 'lanes' any bot can actually take. Either push through the direct route to the feeder, go all the way around the pyramid, or go under the opposing pyramid (though this option is usually closed to the taller bots.).

Re: Defense in Ultimate Ascent
 

Not looking to start a flame war, but I disagree 100%. Pushing through defence is nearly always slower than driving around it. Granted, very few teams have the brecoflex tread like you do, but if I am looking for a cycler on my alliance, I am looking for agility not power. Just ask anyone on 610. They have gotten 7 cycles in a single match, but that would be really hard to do while pushing.

Re: Defense in Ultimate Ascent
 

Exactly. Evading D has little to do with pure speed or pushing power, acceleration and deception are far more important.

Re: Defense in Ultimate Ascent
 

A lot of offensive success in the game at the championship elimination level will come down to perceived agility resulting from consistently accurate predictions the moves of your opponent as well as dealing with how quickly they develop countermeasures to your counter-defensive strategy.

I would imagine teams like 610 achieved multiple six and seven cycle rounds not only because of mechanical ability, but strategic prowess that allowed the drive team to predict the actions and reactions of their opponents faster than any defense could keep up with. Speed of thought behind the glass is just as critical as speed behind the bumpers at this level.

The shrinking of the loading safe zone coupled with the third dimension to the scoring safe zone will continue to result in good coaches and strategists being able to pack as many scenarios into their heads to deal with the 2-minute blocks.

Re: Defense in Ultimate Ascent
 

Exactly--except that I'd argue 3 is plenty. :) The lanes are no secret; it's how you use them that matters. This field is designed to let good offensive bots raise the opportunity cost of playing defense.

The strategies are far from new; in fact, they're far from exclusive to Ultimate Ascent.


As for pushing while cycling, I can only think of 3 general situations in which I'd push a non-scorer, and maybe 3 more that I'd push a scorer. (None of them involve pushing through one D bot to score.)

Re: Defense in Ultimate Ascent
 

This is an interesting subject. While I agree with you that evading the defender entirely is often the most efficient way of dealing with defense, it's not always the most effective in the long run.

I'm an avid believer that there are certain instances that require 'volume by force' - with that meaning that regardless of what obstacles are present, the same volume of points must be scored. More often than not, this requires that a robot be built in such a way that allows it to be both nimble and forceful enough to decide where and how to hit the defender*. There have been instances this year where while under heavy defense we were still able to put up a reasonably high amount of points and this was due to some good decision making on our driver's part - specifically knowing when it's faster to evade and knowing when it's faster to 'remove' the defender from his path.

*For those of you having trouble visualizing this: Imagine an instance where there is not a clear path around a defending robot without going completely out of your way. At this point, you come to the realization that the only way to get where you need to go in the time required is to make contact. Knowing that, you can now chose where you want to contact the defending robot, and logically, you want to hit them in such a way that you make them either spin out of your way or move in a direction that isn't in your path. Yes, contacting the defender will slow you down, but overall it is still faster than an alternate path - at least in situations like this.

Re: Defense in Ultimate Ascent
 

And by that point in time the match is over. In the time it took you to come to that conclusion, it would have been faster to go around.

Re: Defense in Ultimate Ascent
 

As a drive coach, I would add doing an Ollie off the bottom rung of the pyramid on the way up and then dumping with a glitter cannon that shoots the frisbees out gloriously all while doing jazz hands lol

Seriously, though, being able to go under pyramids is a big advantage, but defending against tall robots has also been tough because at one event we were told that if we (a defensive robot) pushed an opponent into our own pyramid, we would be called for a foul.

Re: Defense in Ultimate Ascent
 

Well, maybe it takes two minutes to type all those words, but these kind of decisions can be made instantaneously in the drive box by experienced drivers or coaches. In the case of the coach, all the thinking can be done internally, but the command can be as simple as "go to the left" or "hit the right corner and push through".

The crazy micro-plays that are come up with in a moment's notice are some of the coolest bits of quick decision making in FIRST. I love looking for them in match videos.

Re: Defense in Ultimate Ascent
 

Dustin brings up a great point. Often times, it is possible to ram through defence. If you are driving full speed, and hit someones corner, they are likely to get spun out of the way.

There are many types of contact strategies, some better than others.

IMO, the best ones are the ones that can be executed quickly, since the goal is to save time. That usually means spinning and dodging instead of downshifting and pushing.

It all depends on the situation though.

Re: Defense in Ultimate Ascent
 

Well, think faster! ;) Being in this situation usually means something odd happened to throw off your evasive timing and take you off the original plays 'flow chart'. If you see this going south real-time (which you should), calling the push vector comes pretty quick.

For me it usually comes out as the 3: D sets the block, 2: someone's in the wrong place (ruins evasives), 1: defense swoops/sticks it, 0: "Gun the corner [front]/back/left/right!" or "Spin left/Swerve right!" At our best, it comes without missing a beat.

Re: Defense in Ultimate Ascent
 

I'm not sure about you or the drivers you're used to working with, but I know as a driver I was able to make this decision as quickly as I am able to make decisions when walking through a crowd of people. "Do I go to the left to get around this person? To the right? Do I stay behind them because there is another obstacle in the path around? "

Being able to make quick decisions as a driver is probably a subject for it's own thread though - so if there's a need to discuss it more, we can make one or take it to PM's.

The really interesting part is when you have to watch match videos 10 or 12 times before you can see what was done to avoid a situation. I'm convinced that there's a certain point where making these kinds of on the fly choices are so intuitive that they seem natural.

Sam, agreed. There are usually a handful of 'obvious' moves around common defense, all of which will work well enough to get the job done. But occasionally, special situations will arise (you know this) that need to be addressed using non-conventional means... ;)

Re: Defense in Ultimate Ascent
 

This could also apply in the middle of the field. There have been situations where it was more advantageous to spin out of a pin rather than to push back while trying to complete our objective.