Chief Delphi - Onboard computer?

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Onboard computer?

Hello! Can someone please direct me to the section of the rules dealing with on-board computers (not coprocessors)? We've been considering using an ODROID for onboard Vision Processing, but is we can use a computer rinning Windows, that would be so much better. (I'm not completely sure if we can, I just saw someone mention it in another thread.) Thanks!

Re: Onboard computer?

1706 is using an O-Droid x board running ubuntu 12.10. We use that OS because it is nice to work with. I wouldnt see a problem with what OS you would use for your on board processor, as long as it is safely wired.

Re: Onboard computer?

You sort of need to read the entire electrical section of the robot rules. It is not just one specific rule.
General factors

Cost limitation ($400)
If COTS it can use its own on-board battery otherwise has to use power from PD board
Cannot control outputs directly. All control must go through CRio

Re: Onboard computer?

It's covered as a COTS Computing device <$400 (R11).

Powering the device:

R34

The only legal source of electrical energy for the ROBOT during the competition, the ROBOT battery, is one of the following 12VDC non-spillable lead acid batteries:

MK Battery (P/N: ES17-12) or
EnerSys (P/N: NP 18-12)

Exception: Batteries integral to and part of a COTS computing device or self-contained camera are also permitted (e.g. laptop batteries), provided they’re only used to power the COTS computing device and any peripheral COTS USB input devices connected to the COTS computing device and they must be securely fastened to the ROBOT.

It is defined as a co-processor and must adhere to the following rule with regard to robot control. All signals must be routed through the cRIO or driver station interface (and ultimately the cRIO) to control the robot.

R55

"There are no rules that prohibit co-processors, provided commands originate from the cRIO to configure, enable, and specify all operating points for all power regulating devices. This includes Jaguar motor controllers legally wired to the CAN-bus."

Re: Onboard computer?

Quote:

Originally Posted by ekapalka (Post 1262662)

A couple different rules would be a concern here.

Quote:

R11
The total cost of all items on the ROBOT shall not exceed $4000 USD. All costs are to be determined as explained in Section 4.1.3: Budget Constraints. Exceptions are as follows:
A. individual fasteners, adhesives, and lubricants, that are less than $1 each and
B. Kit of Parts (KOP) items
Teams should be prepared to disclose to Inspectors the cost of any non-KOP item and the total cost of the ROBOT.
Per T7, teams must be prepared to display a Bill of Materials (BOM) to Inspectors during Inspection. The BOM may be displayed in either printed or electronic form.

Quote:

R12
No individual item shall have a value that exceeds $400 USD. The total cost of COMPONENTS purchased in bulk may exceed $400 as long as the cost of an individual COMPONENT does not exceed $400.

Quote:

R34
The only legal source of electrical energy for the ROBOT during the competition, the ROBOT battery, is one of the following 12VDC non-spillable lead acid batteries:
A. MK Battery (P/N: ES17-12) or
B. EnerSys (P/N: NP 18-12)

Exception: Batteries integral to and part of a COTS computing device or self-contained camera are also permitted (e.g. laptop batteries), provided they’re only used to power the COTS computing device and any peripheral COTS USB input devices connected to the COTS computing device and they must be securely fastened to the ROBOT.

You might need to build a custom circuit.

Quote:

R54
Custom circuits shall not directly alter the power pathways between the ROBOT battery, PD Board, motor controllers, relays, motors, or other elements of the ROBOT control system (including the power pathways to other sensors or circuits). Custom high impedance voltage monitoring or low impedance current monitoring circuitry connected to the ROBOT’S electrical system is acceptable, if the effect on the ROBOT outputs is inconsequential.

This is the rule you are mainly concerned with.

Quote:

R55
ROBOTS must be controlled via one (1) programmable National Instruments cRIO (P/N: cRIO-FRC or cRIO-FRCII), with image version FRC_2013_v47.

There are no rules that prohibit co-processors, provided commands originate from the cRIO to configure, enable, and specify all operating points for all power regulating devices. This includes Jaguar motor controllers legally wired to the CAN-bus.

Quote:

R56
One (1) D-Link wireless bridge (P/N: DAP-1522), hardware revision B, is the only permitted device for communicating to and from the ROBOT during the MATCH.
Hardware revision A, distributed in 2011 and 2012, is not legal for 2013. Teams participating in the Irael Regional may use hardware version Rev A or Rev B.

Quote:

R58
Ethernet-connected COTS devices or custom circuits may connect to any remaining Ethernet port but must not transmit or receive UDP packets using ports 1100-1200 with the exception of ports 1130 and 1140.

Quote:

R62
No form of wireless communication shall be used to communicate to, from, or within the ROBOT, except those required per R56 and R61 (e.g. radio modems from previous FIRST competitions and Bluetooth devices are not permitted on the ROBOT during competition).

Quote:

R72
All outputs from sensors, custom circuits and additional electronics shall connect to only the following:
A. other custom circuits,
B. additional COTS electronics,
C. input ports on the Digital Sidecar,
D. input ports on the Analog Breakout Board,
E. the RS-232 port on the cRIO,
F. the Ethernet network connected to either Port 1 or Port 2 of the cRIO,
G. the CAN-bus if and only if all Jaguar motor controllers on the CAN-bus are wired in full compliance with R68 and R69, or
H. the sensor inputs on the Jaguar motor controller.

Custom circuits and additional electronics are allowed to utilize the Port 2 Ethernet bus on the cRIO-FRC and/or the CAN-bus to communicate between devices. Note however, that the ROBOT must be controlled by the cRIO (see R55). Thus, any additional devices on the Ethernet or CAN-bus must not provide command signals that do not originate from the cRIO.

Quote:

R74
Any decorations that involve broadcasting a signal to/from the ROBOT, such as remote cameras, must be approved by FIRST (via e-mail to frcparts@usfirst.org) prior to the event and tested for communications interference at the venue. Such devices, if reviewed and approved, are excluded from R62.

These rules govern on-board processors of any type. As long as they abide by these rules and you provide documentation for any question that may arrise, you will be fine.

You can use any type of operating system, windows, linux, android, etc.

My team uses an on-board processor with an Intel I-3 running Windows 7 and RoboRealm. We use a Kinect to do realtime vision tracking, if you have any questions about our setup, you can send me a PM or post in this thread :]

Re: Onboard computer?

Thank you so much! I just have a few additional questions.... Where does the individual item <R12> stop and the custom circuit begin? For instance (and I'm sure nobody will ever try this), if you built a "custom circuit" with all the functioning parts of a desktop computer, would the total value of all the parts have to be below $400 or just the price of each individual component? I'm pretty sure it would be pretty illegal to go with the latter, but where in the rules is it covered? Thanks for your expertise!

p.s, MDAWG25 Thanks for offering to help! We're definitely considering using a Kinect (and SERIOUSLY looking forward to the Kinect 2.0 that will be releasing with the xBox 720 later this year)

Re: Onboard computer?

We have used PICO-ITX boards for our vision processing. While they are expensive they are much more powerful than alternatives with the same form factor. We also upgraded to 4GB of RAM
http://www.viaembedded.com/en/produc...EPIA-P900.html

Re: Onboard computer?

The way I read the rules, each component has to be under $400, which means you can buy a processor, hard drive, motherboard, RAM, PSU, etc individually, and then assemble them. Each component will be under $400, but the computer as a whole could cost more

Re: Onboard computer?

Yes but the computer would not be as compact which is usualy seen as a large drawback to onboard processors

Re: Onboard computer?

I can put a computer in a 7.5x7.5x2.25 case. This clearly isn't as small as these computers like the odroid, but it is workable, and it is running windows, with a core i7 processor. For vision processing, you can do a heck of a lot more with that than a cortex chip

Re: Onboard computer?

Like a mobile I7 on a single board computer or an entire assembly with a desktop CPU and everything?

Re: Onboard computer?

Like an entire computer, same as any other desktop (with the exception of the psu, which would be a special 12 volt psu)

Re: Onboard computer?

That was exactly what I was wondering about :P The power supply unit. How could you make it legal, though? I thought any additional stored energy was illegal...

Re: Onboard computer?

You could get something like this:
http://www.mini-box.com/picoPSU-160-XT

Re: Onboard computer?

Quote:

Originally Posted by asteb27 (Post 1267486)

Thats what we did, we used a zotac computer last year. I think we even used a usb thumb drive for the hard drive. The the entire thing weighed like a 1/2 pound. I think the other mentor for 3309, David, can explain more

Quote:

Originally Posted by tickspe15 (Post 1267487)

Yes but the computer would not be as compact which is usualy seen as a large drawback to onboard processors

Yeah there are other computers panda board, raspberryPi and a few zotac that are really compact. We are shopping right now for a computer about the same footprint as the Dlink.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ekapalka (Post 1267621)

That was exactly what I was wondering about :P The power supply unit. How could you make it legal, though? I thought any additional stored energy was illegal...

No, you are allowed to to put a DC-DC converter on your bot to get your computer power. It would not store any extra energy. It still gets power from your battery, it would be illegal if you managed to take energy from another source and not have it dissipate away before a match.